what should public education do?

[ulysses]

So, we have this fairly lengthy experiment based on the idea that all of the nation's citizens should be at least offered some degree of education.

To what end? Should public education prepare people to enter a trade? Should it aim toward a more general, "well-rounded" citizenry capable of tackling the duties of citizenship? Should its aim being some combination of these, or something entirely different?

The idea itself has probably been under some kind of threat since its inception, and our time is no different. Should public education even exist?

[Kanary]

1. It should be what it was intended to be....

EDUCATION, not prep school.

If we were actually teaching all our future citizens how to THINK, we wouldn't be in the mess we're in now.

Forget the degrees, forget planning for the "future".

Learn how to THINK.

It's the greatest innoculation against fascism.

Kanary

[ulysses]

2. well said.

Learn how to THINK.

It's the greatest innoculation against fascism.

Yup. Knowledge and the ability to do something with it, imho, are the foundations of a free nation.

(edit: grammatical errors or errors in construction are not my concern on a slightly tipsy Saturday evening. :) )

[TahitiNut]

3. Agreed. A love of learning and an ability to think for one's self.

After that, it's magic.

[JanMichael]

13. Agree completely! Teach CRITICAL THOUGHT!

Teach Logic.

But wait...If we did that I doubt the Corpo Masters would fair so well...

[Kanary]

14. Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding!

I can see you've been thinking about this, JanMichael.

:hi:

Kanary

[JanMichael]

19. It's what I do.

</George Hamilton character's voice in, "Once Upon A Crime">

I see this issue like I see the MBA schools teaching the old paradigm.

Boom & Bust, accepted Capitalistic Practices, was fine before the World Economy became the dominent force. I'm curious to see what they say once the wheels fall off their giant swindling machine this next time.

Ooops?

[Spider Jerusalem]

21. But it was never intended to be education.

Public education in the United States started around the 1840's, concurrent with the industrial revolution. Part of the goal was to produce future workers trained from a young age to unquestioningly submit to authority, and used to being regulated by the clock and the bell.

The ultimate goal of public education is to produce marginally competent workers who kow how to read and write, understand at least basic mathematics, and who have received instruction in the socially acceptable civic myths (that would be what passes for history education in public schools). Even today, actual education is the goal for probably only about five percent of the students (those classified as "gifted").

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

4. combination of the two.

There is the "vocational" aspect. Shorthand: Three Rs. Expanded to higher education via the Morril Act to "Agricultural & Mechnanical Education".

Then there is the "civics" aspect. To teach the virtues of republican government and ones responsibilties as citizens. The history, principles, and mechanics of our form of government.

[ulysses]

7. re: civics

I've read, over the last couple of days, a 1998 Harper's article by Christopher Hitchens (I know, I know) on the teaching of history, and he made some good points about the fact that we teach history as a dead thing, irrelevant to the all-important present. The effort to teach any kind of true civics runs afoul of the American traditional focus on the now. How, if we want to teach any kind of perspective on the duties of citizenship, do we overcome that?

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

15. Thats Hitchens prespective.

Perhaps in Britain, where he was schooled, history was "dead". I disagree this was the case in the USA

In restropsect, most of my historical education (grade school, Jr High, & High) did lead up to a "Democratic" conclusion. I came across an old textbook of either my father or grandfather or aunt, that pretty much led to the same conclusion.

I think there was a definite agenda in US historical pedagogy that was somwhat deterministic. That a republican form of government was the end result of history.

While in jr high and high school US history had a strong "civics" component, and did relate it to modern day things, as well as historical things. Seeing as how this was Kentucky, the Civil War loomed large.

[ulysses]

30. you're to be envied, then.

Most of my history/civics classes from junior high on were "taught" by coaches with no more interest in the subject than they had in nuclear physics.

[Kanary]

16. I have an elderly friend from what is now Czech Republic

He came to the US when he was almost 50, so most of his life was as a Czech citizen.

We've had many, many discussions about education, and his wisdom has been a great source to me.

As he's told me about how history was taught in his schools, I'm very envious. It was brought to life for the students, and they all left with a deeper appreciation for what has gone before, and a much larger understanding of how we affect the course of our nations.

Would that we in the US could ever dare to be so....... "extremist". :)

Kanary

[rucky]

5. Public Ed should guide students

help them discover & develop their interests & talents and guide them through to the "next step" - be it college, job, trade school, parenthood, whatever.

Critical thinking skills, basic reading & math, arts, sciences, foreign language. you need these tools to learn how to learn. if you are not exposed to the basics of these things, your future is being shortchanged & society loses because we may have missed out on the next great scientist or writer because that person never nourtured their talents.

Every child deserves that chance. The right is as basic as breathing.

[Kanary]

8. While I agree with you on the "basic skills"

I have to emphasize that after the attacks on public education, and watching this country's citizens unthinkingly vote for fascism and an (expletive deleted) war, the *FIRST* order of business is learning how to THINK.

By that I don't mean math and spelling, and foreign languages (as necessary as those are!).

I mean that if we don't start teaching kids some healthy skepticism, and ability to discern when they are being bamboozled, all the other skills won't be worth much.

For many years now we have been teaching kids to be cogs in a corporate machine, and look what it's got us to.

Yeah, we may have some bright cogs, but cogs they still are.

Democracy demands a highly enlightened citizenry.

Kanary

[Mattforclark]

10. Good luck

"the *FIRST* order of business is learning how to THINK."

...

"I mean that if we don't start teaching kids some healthy skepticism, and ability to discern when they are being bamboozled"

...

I'm not sure human beings are naturally good at things such as that, but it's a worthy goal.

[Kanary]

17. Had a bad day, mattforclark?

[Mattforclark]

6. Education should impart right character on the youths...

independent thinking should be discouraged and corporal punishment meted out liberally in response to infractions of the public order.

[ulysses]

9. may I assume sarcasm here?

:)

[Mattforclark]

11. Jawohl!

;)

[ulysses]

12. LOL!

:D I'll call that a meeting of minds.

[Bushknew]

18. School is all about memorization and not about thinking.

Are we going to have to think today, or is it going to be all math and memorization?

Students donÕt have time to think, theyÕre to busy reading, memorizing and regurgitating.

I donÕt remember most of the facts I had to memorize in school.

Therefore, I think if students debated, they would learn the facts of their subject, critical thinking skills, argumentation and semantics all at the same time.

It would be fun to learn because your participating, reading and regurgitating is just too passive and boring.

Years of memorization and busy work does not encourage intellectual curiosity, it
impedes it.

Teachers should explain the big picture of an idea before drowning a student
in the minutia of a concept.

Tell me, and I forget;
Show me, and I remember;
Involve me, and I understand.
- Ancient Chinese Saying

[playahata1]

27. Exactly.

Why do you think the dropout rate is so high? You are asked to memorize facts without context, without some sort of application. Kids are asking: "What's in it for me, that I should know what happened in the War of 1812? How does it relate to ME, MY LIFE, WHAT I WANT TO DO WITH ME AND MY LIFE?"

Make learning worth their while -- starting with doing away with standardized testing -- and you will see the dropout rate drop considerably.

[KG]

20. can't teach 'em to think TOO much - turns 'em into far fringe leftys!

:eyes:

[Kanary]

22. Really?

My thinker went kaput, and I'm still a far fringe lefty.

Wonder what coulda happened...?

:)

Kanary

[JVS]

23. Schools must give students the skills necessary to be able to choose...

a productive course of study and work later in life. It is unfair to students to neglect Math and Science to such a degree that they are not equipped to study such subjects or learn skills which will allow them to earn a good living. It robs them of their future.

[Kanary]

24. Not equipping students with a bullshit detector

robs them of their future.

Kanary

[JVS]

25. That can't really be taught in school. It requires the student to be...

curious

[Kanary]

26. Disagree

Socrates did it quite a while ago.

It was in all the papers.

Kanary

[JVS]

31. Socrates was a rarity.

[Kanary]

33. OHMY So, we throw up our hands in surrender?

Geeeez, louise.....

I guess you're just right.... we all should just dumb ourselves down.....

:shrug:

Kanary

[JVS]

36. Sure, why not?

:-)

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

28. we where actually taught "bullshit detection" in English.

I think this was sophmore year in English, during the 70s, in suburban Louisville....

...we where taught how to "deal with the media"...how to understand how adverstising works, the kind of manipulation you see in the media.

Now that I think of it, its was pretty "out there" to teach this stuff. But that was the 1970s.

[Kanary]

29. Yes, there are *still* a few teachers who are actually doing this

But "nochildleftbehind" will put a stop to that.

:(

You were fortunate. Probably didn't see that at the time, eh?

Kanary

[Mr.Green93]

32. break the parent child bond

[Lydia Leftcoast]

34. Job skills and critical thinking are not mutually exclusive

For example, you can teach science with constant reminders of how scientists decide what's true. You can teach math with illustrations of practical applications and early introduction of proofs (for logical thinking).

You can teach history while asking students to envision themselves in that historical period and to imagine what life would be like today if such and such an event had never happened. For example, what if the settlers had really treated the Native tribes as equal sovereign nations rather than as obstacles to expansion? What if Abraham Lincoln had not been assassinated?

Reading and discussing good literature not only introduces students to humanity's cultural heritage but also improves students' powers of self-expression.

Writing not only is a useful job skill but also serves as an outlet for students' emotions.

The arts develop the right brain and the imagination and give students access to pursuits that they can follow for the rest of their lives. (I know ninety year olds who paint, and eighty year olds who act in community theater or play musical instruments.)

Foreign languages open up the rest of the world. As a button that I saw at a language teachers' convention says, "We are not alone. Learn a foreign language." Contrary to what you might think, the more languages you study, the easier they get. That's why students in some European countries can handle studying three or four languages at once.

So all in all, I see no conflict between learning to think and learning job skills. In fact, even though employers don't like to admit it, critical thinking and flexibility (acquired in the form of different knowledge and skills) are the most valuable qualifications for a successful working life.

[JVS]

37. Thanks for making a much needed point.

[seabeyond]

35. i think i need to get kids out of private

and get them into public. and then work with public my expectation of them.

too many parents that do participate and choosing private. parents need to come back into the system. never will school work without the support and participation of parent. teachers cannot raise our kids, as much as they try, and even sometimes demand they be allowed.

all in the parent