Just saw The Alamo

[MoonRiver]

The parallels to Iraq are startling, imo. It presents a situation where some power mad American politicians plot to seize Texas from Mexico utilizing poor, impresionable militia types, very common in Texas, even today. As a result innocents, both American and Mexican are slaughtered. The two diabolical leaders, Santa Anna (substitute Sadaam Hussein) and Sam Houston, have no problem sacrificing soldiers and their families to make a point. In the case of Santa Anna he let hundreds of his men be cut down rather than wait for his "big cannon". That weapon was due to arrive the next day and would have done the job without all the Mexican casualties. His rationale was that, paraphrasing, 'we didn't have a revolution just to lose our country to the Americans. We need to see blood and tears.' Houston organized the Alamo adventure by promising hundreds of acres of land to desperate men. He promised there would be a true army to help out soon after the militia people set up shop in the Alamo. But then he refused to send reinforcements to the doomed Alamo because, supposedly, he was afraid there wouldn't be enough men to win, and he might lose his chance to grab all of Texas. More soldiers were reportedly on the way, but it was too late by the time the Alamo fell, and they actually never got there. I wonder if it was a set-up all along. Houston had a great rallying cry, "Remember the Alamo" to incite his men on toward comquering Santa Anna's army and taking Texas. Every great leader needs a martyr, e.g. "Remember 9/11"! Houston was a brilliant but totally ruthless military leader. It was truly disgusting to watch and compare him with Rumsfeld, who is not so brilliant, but more ruthless.

Maybe people are basically just barbarians, and nothing ever really changes, but this movie brought home the insanity and violence of our current imperialistic nightmare in Iraq big time. Nevertheless, I definitely recommend seeing it.

[On the Road]

1. Is That Really How the Movie Portrayed It?

Damn, I might have to see it now. I was discouraged by all the tepid reviews. Maybe it was just the result of "patriotic" Americans being turned off by history that doesn't depict Americans as angels.

[MoonRiver]

2. We kept reading negative reviews too.

My husband was convinced, correctly I think, that the reasons were just what you stated. Americans weren't portrayed as "winners" and pure as the driven snow in motive. The characterizations of Crocket, Boie (sp?), Seguin, Houston, Travis, etc. (names I've known all my life as a native Texan) were wonderful. It showed people (both Mexican and American) caught up in something they really didn't understand, but behaving heroically nevertheless. You should definitely see it. :thumbsup: from your local DU reviewer! :D

[On the Road]

5. Thanks, It's on My List Now

and will probably disappear from the theaters before Kill Bill 2.

[wyldwolf]

3. the question is tomorrow...

..will you remember the alamo?

click

[efhmc]

4. OMG, if you are comparing Sam Houston to Donald Rumsfeld, you

are basing your grasp of history on a movie. Sam Houston was an iconoclast and a strong believer in liberty. He was ousted as Texas Governor in 1861 because he would not support the Civil War. He lived with the Cherokee for many years. He was a brilliant thinker and a great independent leader of his time. Trying to fit leaders of the 1800's into 2000 molds just doesn't work. I recommend "The Raven" (SH's native American name)to help you get a clearer concept of this person.

[MoonRiver]

8. I'm just talking about a bit of time in history, portrayed in a movie.

I'm not an historian, but I appreciate the info, and will definitely read "The Raven". I hated Texas history as a kid because it was constantly being crammed down our throats in the most boring manner. A lot of TX history is actually very fascinating though. Now that I'm transplanted far away, maybe I'll rediscover my roots!

[efhmc]

9. Sam Houston was such a different person for his time that I always

found him interesting. I really love history and get upset at DU sometimes because many have some nebulous concept of not only Texas history but the history of many areas and people who came here to settle. Most of us don't really have any inkling of the different cultures of the many tribes that were here before Europeans and our diseases and land takeover managed to annihilate them. Maybe I will see the movie after all. You made me curious.

[MoonRiver]

10. I agree. I'm reading "The Peloponnesian War" by Donald Kagan.

I was told years ago that this war parallels what's happening in the US. I'm not sure about that but it is really good.

[efhmc]

12. I haven't read it. Glad to get the recommendation.

[mobuto]

15. Or read Thucydides straight up

Thucydides' History of the Peloponnesian war is very readable, and its extremely chilling. The only problem is that every generation for decades has seen parallels in it (and everybody, always, identifies with Athens). But its excellent.

Read the part, especially, about the Athenian invasion of Sicily and tell me it doesn't remind you of Iraq in the absolute worst-case scenario.

[efhmc]

18. I have always heard of it but never read it and am feeling so uneducated

now. I must take care of this. Should I buy or get it from the library?

[MoonRiver]

19. Interesting. I'll check that out after I finish this book.

I haven't gotten very far yet. I'm just to the part where Corinth and Corcyra are each trying to get Athens' support in a conflict against the other.

[efhmc]

11. http://www.lsjunction.com/people/houston.htm

That's a little bit about him. I remember many years ago when my husband and I took our daughters to Huntsville to visit Houston's house and our young college guide talked about how he had been married 3 times and I questioned him. I remembered the first thwarted marriage (That was so ambiguous in the books I read that I am still not sure why he was divorced. They made it seem like his bride was just plain scared to death of sex.) Anyway, our guide informed me that Sam also had a Cherokee wife. Good thing the voters of the early republic didn't know about that.

[MoonRiver]

13. Well, it really was the wild, wild West!

Have you read "Lonesome Dove"? That's one of my all time favorite books.

[efhmc]

17. Not a big Larry McMurtry fan. He's a little too macho for me. Although

I do find some of his characters very real and his scenery descriptions are true. Okay, well maybe I do like some of his stuff. "Terms of Endearment" really captures so much of the people and lifestyle I knew growing up in Texas in the 60's. Wanted to add, Also Houston in the 70's. It was an amazing place.

[MoonRiver]

21. But have you read "Lonesome Dove"?

Believe me, it's his all time best. But, I haven't read Terms of Endearment, so I guess I don't really know that. At this stage of my life, I tend to prefer non-fiction and history.

[efhmc]

23. Read it and that was my reference to the characters and the real

scenery of the state. I think it is good but I am not a big fan of fictionalized history. I am like you, I like the real stuff. If you want to see a piece of the real stuff, go to www.calfcreekranch.com and you can see why and how I know what is real.

[crimson333]

6. except

that Travis disobeyed orders and stayed at the alamo after houston told him to abandon.

[PurityOfEssence]

7. Definitely worth seeing

I can guarantee you that I went in to skewer the thing, but it actually attempted to address the glossed-over issue of slavery, and I'll give it a pass just for that. Billy Bob was a joy, and they stuck fairly well to history.

Santa Anna left no scenery unchewed, though, and that was a bit much. The pace is what killed it, although not for me, because I don't demand electifying pace from movies.

The Texas Revolution was caused largely by the American Immigrants going back on their word. Yes, Santa Anna tore up the 1824 Constitution and raised taxes--something no American will ever tolerate--but the real problems were three conditions of settlement that the Anglos deliberately welched on: converting to Catholicism, learning Spanish and NOT HAVING SLAVES. The unfortunate truth is that accurate portrayal of this takes away from the underdog heroism of the defenders.

Sam Houston was a hell of a lot taller than Dennis Quaid, and the continual scowl wore a bit thin, too. They could have mentioned Goliad a bit, too, while they were at it...

Nice try, though, and definitely a solid attempt at accuracy.

Damn; never would have expected it...

Fairly balanced; no wonder it's dying like a dog.

[efhmc]

14. Yeah, that John Wayne thing was a farce and I thought this would be

just a more current farce. Again, maybe I will give it a try. Did they show Santa Anna dressing up like a woman to try to get away at the battle of San Jacinto?

[King_Crimson]

16. I saw the original which was released in 1960 ...

That's right...old geezer here...and I can STILL remember it though I was but 9 years old at the time! John Wayne was EXCELLENT playing Davy Crockett as was Richard Widmark playing Jim Bowie and Richard Boone as Sam Houston! AHHHHH...but for the old days!

[efhmc]

20. When you said you saw the original, I thought we had a real relic on our

hands? (How did you get away? How did you survive?) Have you seen that movie as an adult and if so what do you think of it now? Not questioning your judgement, hon, just wondering?

[King_Crimson]

22. Haven't seen it since...

but I might just have to rent it! If I remember correctly, it lasted like 3 or 4 hours! AND I still use a VCR...don't have DVD yet! Kinda set in my ways! :evilgrin:

[efhmc]

25. When you see it , let me know what you think. Also, am wondering

where you grew up, if you do not mind sharing.

[King_Crimson]

27. Born and raised in...

Logansport, Indiana...Joe Higgins and Greg Kinnear both born there!

[efhmc]

34. So sorry to sound rude, but that explains a lot of the mystique on your

part. Tell me something about the history of your state, a place I have never been to.

[No2W2004]

24. three things....

Santa Anna was dressed in an enlisted man's clothes, not woman's clothes (although that would have been more appropriate) at San Jacinto (my great x5 grandfather, Jacob Standifer, veteran)

The thing about Houston's first wife....no one has ever known what happened. There were rumors that Houston had some "scars down there" that pretty much freaked the new Mrs. Houston out of her gourd. It was always a matter of Honor for Houston, and he never allowed anyone to speak badly of her.

Houston knew the Alamo was doomed when he received the message. By not sending troops, he probably won the revolution. The men at the Alamo will always be remembered as heroes for buying Houston the time he needed to get across the state ahead of Santa Anna.

Of course, Santa Anna will be remembered for being stupid and stubborn enough to not pay attention to the big picture....hmmm sound like anyone we might know??

[efhmc]

26. Hi, new smart, interesting and knowledgeable person. Welcome.

The whole thing with the 1st Mrs. Houston will probably never be known because of the code of honor of Mr. Houston and of the gentlemen of the day. But all indications are that it had something to do with the sex act. Have you ever been to the San Jacinto Monument or seen the picture of Santa Anna in his woman's attire?

[No2W2004]

28. Yep...

Wonderful, stinky Pasadena Texas! It probably has something to do with "The yellow rose of Texas" story. The picture I'd refer you to is probably the best known one. (Houston is laying under a tree with his ankle bandaged, while Santa Anna is presented to him in a worn looking regular soldier's uniform. To Houston's left, we see "Deaf" Smith leaning in and cupping his hand to his ear)

[efhmc]

30. That is the one.

[RummyTheDummy]

29. Careful

You might offend some Texas DUers. Those people are so proud of their state even the slightest joke about it sets them off. Turns out they're not so friendly after all.

[efhmc]

31. So wrong, honey.

Bush is not and never has been anything about Texas. I will refer you to that other thread I read tonight, which was so beautifully done, by yella_dawg. I drove to the ranch today and was composing in my mind a thread to try to explain things to the DUers that think bush is Texas or that I 10 is Texas. I decided on the trip back that it was just not worth the effort. Then I saw that thread and was elated that someone had taken the time to say most, if not all, the things I wanted to. I use to get so angry here at the Texas and South bashing but lately I am just using all my energy to try to be a good precinct chair and to getting that evil carpetbagger out of office.

[No2W2004]

32. Ha.....

You sir, must have never been to Pasadena. It wasn't a joke, and no Texan would deny it....Pasadena smells bad. (It happens to be home of most of the refineries that line the ship channel)

[efhmc]

33. We use to eat at the restaurant there. (I think it has since burned

and been replaced.) All you could eat, shrimp, oysters, fried chicken, biscuits, etc. I could never do my duty, being little, but others in my family, although slim, were tall and male and always hungry and could eat plate after plate. Also, we would go to the Battle Ship Texas. Did you ever see all those water moccasins in the pond across from the battleship? Yikes.

[No2W2004]

35. San Jacinto Inn?

No, I never saw the snakes, but the mosquitos were just as bad.

[efhmc]

37. Yep. went there as a small child and took my daughters there as a

young adult. OMG, I am turning into one of those oldsters that miss the good old days. I so miss many things about the past but the prejudice against so many people I do not. (including myself, a woman. It was nowhere near as bad as it was for African Americans but still nasty.)

[Fenris]

36. Patriots fan, eh?

A rude New Englander? How unheard of!