Our soldiers are surrounded - if you look at the big picture

[BostonTeaParty04]

If you look at the big picture (take out a map of the middle east), our soliders are sitting right in the middle of a tinderbox.

If/when the entire arab league says enough is enough -- all those ME countries could literally pounce on our forces --- from the north, the east and the west.

Think about it.... MILLIONS of arab soldiers (govt issued and everything... and armed with the best US weapons we could GIVE them in bribes over the years)........could literally wipe out 150,000 American troops. It would take no time at all.

It's like a custer's last stand or something.

I am so suspicious and worried about how silent the other arab nations have been. And so complicit in what we are doing. Syria, Iran and Saudi Arabia are awfully cozy with Russia, and Putin has about had it with bushboy.

It just dawned on me that maybe we should start to pay a bit of attention to who/what surrounds Iraq from all sides. And you think Kuwait would ally itself with the USA and against its Arab brothers? No way. So let's add a massacre from the south as well.

**shudders***

WW4... brought on pretty much overnight.

[The Traveler]

1. Yes. Finally someone sees it

Our warriors are in an exposed position, bereft of effective political support, under supplied with both protective armer and ammo, surrounded by enemies. On the plus side there is good air support for them. Still, their necks are on the block.

[NMDemDist2]

2. yup ugly situation all around

[BostonTeaParty04]

4. let's not forget lack of food and water......

since halliburton finds things too insecure there to bring in the amounts of food/water necessary (TRAITORS)

But the only way to maintain air support and supply lines in this worst case scenario would be through Turkey. Turkey would be the wild card. (WILD TURKEY!)

I suppose the NUTS in the war room in the white house figured... let's get lots of forces in Afghanistan. We take iraq. And then, bahaahahaha, we can take Iran... Which makes a total audubon highway from afgh to iraq..... (if I am placing afgh and iran correctly... I gotta keep looking at the maps to stay oriented.... dumb american that I am).

[The Traveler]

6. I've been worried about this from the beginning

There is a long history of armies charging into the Middle East and eventually getting their ass kicked.

[drfemoe]

37. me too

This was my biggest fear after the fast march to Baghdad. Troops surrounded, having to shoot their way just to 'escape'. Too horrible to contemplate.

[Elwood P Dowd]

3. Syria, Iran, Jordan, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, & Turkey

surround Iraq. Some scary shit isn't it?

[BostonTeaParty04]

10. Yeah, and then come out with all out support for Israel's death squads?

And telling the palestinians, sorry charlie... we're taking a bunch more land. and oh...no right of return for the Palestinians who are refugees in all the above-mentioned countries. They REALLY want to return the palestinians ....

Turkey really is the wild card. Does she stick with her NATO allies? Or does she stay true to geographic realities? (I know I would probably vote to stick with the ME.) And since Turkey is burning to get northern Iraq, I suppose their loyalties would be determined by WHO could most likely deliver that to them.

Well, this all seems pre-meditated to me (by the neocons). Ongoing war....they were SERIOUS! Except it won't be ongoing. We can't fight that war... unless the entirety of the western world wants to join in, and I don't think they do. It's too easy to pick us off right now in one fell swoop.

[Elwood P Dowd]

23. I called a friend who was in the Army with me during Vietnam

He supported the war and bushit. I told him to take a close look
at the map and call me back. His words were something along the lines
of "holy fucking shit".

I wonder how many Americans have a map or a globe. Even better - how many Americans even have a clue of what is about to happen.

[BostonTeaParty04]

25. Wow..... what do you think about the complicit nature of the arab league

during the ramp up to the invasion?

Do you think they had their own little meetings and decided.. what the hell? we definitely get rid of saddam. And we know the us can't keep a religious state from emerging. And, well... let's weaken the USA, and if need be... we strike.

Russia and China are working overtime to get its allies in place. I forgot to mention.. China is good friends with India now (I have no doubt that Putin told India that it best allow China to do whatever China wanted to do in Tibet; et voila... China has carte blanche to do what it wants in Tibet.)

[Elwood P Dowd]

32. I don't want to think about this anymore

I have enough trouble sleeping as it is. LBJ and RMN were brilliant
military strategists compared to the draft dodging duo of bushit and cheney.

[jean]

51. The only way Turkey would support bush is if he coughed up large sums

of cash.

Didn't they do this when bush requested the use of their territory as staging ground for our troops? bush promised a big chunk of money but didn't come through with it (or did? - at least he was slow in coming up with it and Turkey threatened to bail out of the deal unless they saw the cash up front)

Don't forget Turkey is also keeping a close eye on the Kurds because they have had major Kurdish uprising problems in the past and don't want Kurd success or influence to spill over into Turkey.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

I don't think

Turkey would attack because it's not an Arab state.

[BostonTeaParty04]

28. Turkey can't pick up and move.....

Whether its an arab state or not.... it is surrounded by arab states. They have a lot of muslims though..

[Qanisqineq]

5. ok, stupid question

Maybe I haven't been paying enough attention. Please don't tell me how dumb I am. But... when was WW3?

[shockingelk]

8. some call the Cold War WWIII n/t

[Qanisqineq]

11. ok, thanks

I did not know that

[fujiyama]

45. I didn't either

I just thought it was the Cold War, during which occasional hot wars popped up.

[BostonTeaParty04]

16. Good question... sorry about that... lol

I am so used to speaking with people who are on board that WW3 took place already... that I use WW4 as if it were common speech.

But I don't really believe the cold war ended. I think the USSR realized it cost way too much to supply the military and keep their people fed. So they just ducked out of sight, unloaded all the dead weight, keep the military and the assets..... and sat back and has been watching the USA spin out all be herself!!! And we are playing it word for word according to the script.

And now we see Putin putting all of his ducks in a row. He is allied with India, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iran, CHINA!. His only problem is the encroaching US military all around the caspian sea and in the balkans. But, gee, isn't it an amazing chess move to tie up the usa in the ME.... that slows down the encroachment considerably... hmmmmm....

[playahata1]

54. You write:

<<<But I don't really believe the cold war ended. I think the USSR realized it cost way too much to supply the military and keep their people fed. So they just ducked out of sight, unloaded all the dead weight, keep the military and the assets..... and sat back and has been watching the USA spin out all be herself!!! And we are playing it word for word according to the script.>>>

Exactly. Someone mentioned on "NOW with Bill Moyers" that the Cold War is now being fought in the Middle East.

[shockingelk]

7. uh ...

No combination of countries would be dumb enough to take on the US - unless we provoke them. And I honestly don't believe that the insane decision makers wish the war to become regional.

[The Traveler]

19. I think we've already provoked them. (n/t)

[BostonTeaParty04]

31. I agree with RobG, we have provoked them.

In the last few weeks... we have stoked the fire like never before.

We just drew a line in the sand with Israel.... we just CHALLENGED them.... a direct challenge. INSANE.

[shockingelk]

40. I don't understand

Attacking the US lead occupation of Iraq because of something that happened in Israel/Palestine makes almost as little sense as deposing Saddam in attempt to bring in OBL.

[BostonTeaParty04]

41. I don't mean to speak down to you....

but do you know any of the history of the region? (Not like I am any big history academic or anything....)

1. US-led occupation??? is someone other than the US actually in the coalition? Oh... the UK, that's right... for all intents and purposes, this is a solitary, independent US-run occupation....

2. ugh, I am going to let someone else explain the israel/palestine part. But I will say, every country in the region would prefer that israel NOT be there. They don't even like the palestinians... They have refugee camps in many countries, and they need to return the palestinians to Palestine (whereever Palestine is.... and Bush just took a big chunk of it AWAY this week). there's no short answer on this. But I surmise that MILLIONS of Arabs are angry as all get out today. And these arabs will put pressure on their leaders.. their leaders who are mostly monarchs and who want to STAY monarchs. eventually, leaders/nations have to listen to the will of their people.

[shockingelk]

42. Why would they attack ...

Why would they attack thew US in Iraq instead of Israel?

It's a simple question - is there a simple answer? When you say "there's no short answer on this" a red flag goes up that tells me I would have to listen to a long-winded string of Bushesque nonsense ... but I'm willing to be proven wrong.

[knight_of_the_star]

56. Won't matter

They know that we don't have the will or the resources to wage war on the entire middle east, for one. For two, in war, you must beware of a nation whose common folk have little or nothing to lose, for they simply WILL NOT CARE what happens to them so long as they can drag the other dirty SOB down. Case in point, suicide bombers.

[BeHereNow]

9. SO refreshing to hear from you!

An American who actually KNOWs geography!
You are so correct in your observation-
Unfortunately, the average 'muriKKKan could not find
even ONE of the the locations you refer to on a map-
much less understand the geo-political, and cultural
organizations and beliefs of the region.
If they did, they would DEMAND an immediate
withdrawal-ESPECIALLY given the turn of recent events
with the Bush Cabal condoning Sharon's actions.
Our troops have just been designated as
"fish in a barrel."
AHN

[BostonTeaParty04]

18. Bingo!! Fish in a barrell. **kaboom**

Thanks for the compliments. But I tell ya, I read some of the LBN and it will just give the city.... and sometimes I am like.... where the heck is that??? Buruska and such names... (just made that up... ).

Yeps, if Americans could SEE the picture, they would be shuddering.

But they are told to focus on those 'thugs' who are making our troops days long and dangerous. (can you believe the leader of the free world uses the word THUG in *any* context????? ugh)

[BeHereNow]

27. Every morning...

I wake up and put myself in the boots of a nineteen year
old soldier in the ME.
I do this with a greater than average knowledge of cultural and
geographical comprehension of the region.
Oh, that others in my country could/would do the same.
They would all be home tomorrow if it were possible.
But the reality is this:
Most 'murikkkans could not find the ME on a map.
The ultimate hypocrisy is that while contributing to the
sorrow and misery of the world, most 'murikkkans feel they
have a right to graze at the mall, slurp starsluts coffee,
destroy the environment and drive monster trucks because
THEY ARE 'murikkkans.
On record as the most ignorant people of the world.
Sad and deplorable, is it not?
That they are so willing to send their own to die
in a country they can't tell you ONE factual
piece of information about?
For what?
BHN

[BostonTeaParty04]

34. I hear ya.... Americans are ignorant of the world outside our borders

(and even the world inside our borders!)

And this is the biggest twist of all.... most americans are pretty darned nice! They are absolutely clueless about the evil that they unleash upon the world. I guess that's what ignorance is all about: fat, dumb and happy.

I had to help a guy with a doctorate degree once. He had to make a phone call to Japan. He was truly flustered.. as he came up to me with a phone book.... begging for my help. NO CLUE whatsoever how to make an international call. No clue that he could dial ZERO and talk to an operator (he had been fretting alone in the other room when he finally tucked his pride to come ask me for help).

No CLUE...

And the worst thing was.. he didn't want to learn how to do it. He just wanted me to get his party on the line. Totally blew me off. I was like... it's really SIMPLE... 011..country code... phone number.

Just rambling here..... How on earth do we wake up and educate so many millions of americans?????????

[RummyTheDummy]

12. Not quite

We have one advantage nobody can bring to the table -- air power. Given that, any mass uprising, or whatever parlance you choose to use, would be a blood bath of epic proportions on both sides.

[BostonTeaParty04]

21. Air power... okay SUPPLY THAT FOR ME........

Supply it for me....

Where will a SHIP drop off reinforcement supplies?

Where will military transport planes fly over to get to Iraq?

Where will we get FUEL? Can't seem to pump any oil in that country.... and all pipelines would be the first to get blasted....

What on EARTH would the USA do with the idea of fighting an attack from all sides AND dealing with 24 million iraqis???

What will Turkey do? Turkey knows one thing... it can play with the West; it can reap benefits with the West; it can even help the West out from time to time. But it knows.... don't cross it's geographic neighbors.... it's arab brothers....

How many days would our air power last without reinforcement? Oh, I guess Israel would break loose its arsenals....if Israel is on the map at that point.

[RummyTheDummy]

29. Well

We do have 13 aircraft carries, or is it 12. Anyway, I believe that's where most of the missions flown in Iraq originate from. Also I believe US planes fly out of Qutar as well. Im not sure about what kind of air ops go on in Iraq other than helicopters and transport planes.

[BostonTeaParty04]

36. Okay.....

Where are those russian nuclear submarines anyways? The ones who were doing excercises in the gulf just about 5 or 8 months ago (I forget when).

Quatar? Oh they ain't gonna help us.

when the whistle blows..... we are all alone out there..........

[RummyTheDummy]

38. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you

But I'm not sure how the Russians would become involved. I don't view this conflict as a Tom Clancy novel, anymore than Vietnam was. The reality is, as of today, Average Joe Iraqi does not like us and frankly who can blame them. They're making life miserable for US troops and will continue to do so. When the Russians get involved militarily then that's up for discussion, but for now, it seems irrelevant.

[Frangible]

13. Remember WW2?

The "invincible" German army, top tactics and technology in the world, vs. the lowly Russians on the Eastern Front.

What happened? Loss of logistics from being too far from home + overwhelming numbers of Russians. It could happen again, easily.

Yes, our air force is superior. The luftwaffe was superior to the Russian airfoce too.

Yes, our abrams tank is almost invincible. So was the German King Tiger panzer tank.

Yes, our soldiers are the best equipped and the best trained in the world. So were the soldat of WW2 Germany.

But none of the matters, when you piss too many people off. It's happened before, and it can happen again. The price of warmongering.

[RummyTheDummy]

Actually the Panzer was vulnerable

From the rear. All weapons systems have vulnerabilities. The Russians got help from their harsh weather and the fact they outnumbered the Germans 20-1.

[RummyTheDummy]

14. Actually the Panzer was vulnerable

From the rear. All weapons systems have vulnerabilities. The Russians got help from their harsh weather and the fact they outnumbered the Germans 20-1.

[Frangible]

17. Qualifier: "almost"

:)

Our Abrams are also vulnerable; we had some losses in Operation Iraqi Freedom. But my point was, it is to today's tanks, as the German King Tiger was to WW2's tanks. And just being on top technologically, tactically, etc, does not mean you will always win.

The weather can be harsh in Iraq, too. Lack of water can be a serious logistical problem, just as the extreme cold was on the eastern front in WW2.

Yes, we can defeat Iraqi insurgents. But all the countries in the region? Our supply line would be destroyed, and we could be in trouble.

[RummyTheDummy]

20. You're right

Iraq's heat is certainly comprable to a Russian winter. Just the opposite extreme.

I still believe that fact the US has total air supremecy in the area would make it hard to mount any kind of coordinated uprising on a massive scale. But on the same note, that air power isn't effective against the kinds of tactics Iraqi's are using as of now.

[Frangible]

22. Also...

If our supply line was disrupted, we could run out of fuel for em.

And you're right, urban combat makes using air/ground armor difficult.

[RummyTheDummy]

26. That brings up another question

How much of our air power originates its missions from countries outside of Iraq like Quatar? Im not sure on this.

[Frangible]

30. Not sure of it either...

But if that was taken out of the picture, only base of operations for air power would be Ramstein Air Force Base in Germany (nuke bait), or an aircraft carrier (very limited)

Really, the only reason we're able to operate over there logistically is because the other arab countries are letting us. At some point, will they change their minds?

[RummyTheDummy]

33. I suppose eventually they could change their minds

When that will come and what circumstances would have to come about for that to happen are unknown. Although I think we haven't done ourselves any favors in the region with our use of excessive force on civilians.

Tell me why we got ourselves into this mess again? It's totally FUBAR.

[Frangible]

35. the clear and present danger of WMDs!

And let's not forget Saddam's support of Al Queda. It's almost like that time in 1939 that Poland invaded Germany... oh, wait.

[daleo]

44. Remember the sand storms

The western military has been in Iraq for one whole year, they have lived there forever.

[NuttyFluffers]

43. hahaha! "supply lines." hahaha!

when we contract out our supply lines to mercenaries, er, third parties we don't have reliable supply lines. all our contractors have to do now is say, 'i want more money or i leave you high and dry.' and there's nothing we can do about it. the attempt of this nutty administration and its friends wanting to privatize the military is one of the dumbest, and TREASONOUS, things i've ever heard of.

i honestly don't have the level of fear about our military being the target of a multinational arab force. they are too diplomatically savvy to overtly get into such a mess with such a big player. besides, they like playing the part of our 'friends.' never underestimate the ME capacity for cutthroat diplomacy. they've had to master the art living in the crossroads of three continents. no, all they have to do is let the environment, ecological, cultural, and logistical, work its entropic magic. the desert does not suffer fools and bullies gladly - there's a reason hospitality is a paramount tradition.

[The Traveler]

24. You are correct

And never forget ... one common man fighting for his home is worth 10 mercenaries.

[BostonTeaParty04]

39. I put myself in either role.....

How fierce would I be if I were fighting in a far-away land vs right here in my hometown. No comparison.... none. And I am a big wimp! But tell that to a foreign occupier!~

[Mattforclark]

55. Not such a great analogy

"The "invincible" German army, top tactics and technology in the world, vs. the lowly Russians on the Eastern Front."

More so tactics than technology. And the Russians gradually caught on.

"What happened? Loss of logistics from being too far from home + overwhelming numbers of Russians. It could happen again, easily."

That particular point isn't a bad one.

"Yes, our air force is superior. The luftwaffe was superior to the Russian airfoce too."

The LW was defeated by the US/UK, not Russia.

"Yes, our abrams tank is almost invincible. So was the German King Tiger panzer tank."

The King Tiger only went into production at the very end of the war, in late 44, early 45, and there were very few of them. At the beginning of the war in Russia, the Pz III and IV were not as good as Russian T-34's, but Germany won with better tactics.

"Yes, our soldiers are the best equipped and the best trained in the world. So were the soldat of WW2 Germany."

Not especially. The standard german rifle was not at all great, for example. (I guess you could say the same about the M-16 though).

[Kanary]

15. Let's hope our troops have the good sense

to mutiny and get their behinds out of there.

They're going to have to be mobilizing the Salvation Army soon.

Kanary

[izzie]

46. That is why Powell is always giving something to Turks etc.

Bush and Co have handed out Billions to all the countries, or most, around Iraq. I my self would not truth these countries. They would be fools not to watch out for them selfs.

[0007]

47. The Arabs are not stupid - especially when continuity and thought

is on the same page. The U.S. has been recklessly ignorant in it's world affairs.

Only time will tell.

[Jim__]

48. I don't think so

Israel has effectively beaten that combination of Arab nations.

First, before attacking, they would have to mass at the borders. We have the power to stop that. Then, if they were able to form and launch an attack, our technological superiority would allow us to devastate the attacking forces as long as there was some separation between their forces and ours.

Our technological advantage really does make the difference in traditional battles where there is some separation of the forces. The problem we have is that once we win, if we try to occupy territory, our forces are now mingled with theirs, and we lose a lot of this advantage.

I don't think the Arabs would mass and attack our military. I don't think they could beat us if they did. I also don't think we can conquer the Arab people. If we try to occupy their territory, they will resist; and our technology does not give us as great an advantage in that situation. That is why we will fail in Iraq - no matter how often Bush tries to deny it.

[mmonk]

49. Even not considering other countries

it's tenuous. 120,000-130,0000 troops in a country of 24 million. Right now, I think our commanders should be fired for their part in the escalating violence. If a few more thousand Iraqis decide to snipe our troops, it really could turn into a worse hell hole for our men and women. I don't think our fancy bombs could prevent real disaster. This thing takes brains right now, not just display of power.

[Deja Q]

50. That's when the nukes will start a'flyin'...

Of if the neutron bomb is perfected, they'll irradiate Mecca and be even more cruel.

But they wouldn't want to use the N-bomb. It leaves people alive. And as the old saying goes (to the inhuman vermin in power right now anyway), "While there's life there's threat."

[supercrash]

52. You are way off base...

The Shiite could swallow the US forces by themselves

If Sistani gives the word.

[susu369]

53. Very interesting, but sobering, thread

Makes me think of this old quote:

Arrogance rides triumphantly through the gates, barely glancing at the old woman about to cut the rope and spring shut the trap - Mason Cooley

[Media_Lies_Daily]

57. Hitler insisted on continuing to celebrate the "victory" at Stalingrad...

...long after the German 6th Army was surrounded and all ground supply lines cut. Hitler also continued to issue orders based on the "Stand Fast" doctrine that prevented German combat units from retreating out of bad tactical/strategic defensive positions.

Makes you think, doesn't it?

Battle of Stalingrad, August 1942 to February 1943
<http://www.stalingrad.com.ru/history/history.htm>

[BostonTeaParty04]

58. Stand Fast = today's 'stay the course'

yeah, I am thinking all right. I am thinking our soldiers are in big trouble.... big, big trouble.

Thanks for the link. I will check it out. My WW2 studies focused mostly on the western front.... so thanks!

WOW, photos and everything. Faboo.