What do the anti-religious here think of Islam?

[theboss]

It seems unfair that everyone gets to bash Christians but there never seems to be an opportunity to bash Muslims. I am sure there are plenty of folks just dying to mock Muslims.

So here's thread if that's your cup of tea. It's not mine. But I'm a liberal and am tolerant.

[KissMyAsscroft]

1. Well....Im sure it's just as annoying..

It's just that we don't have to live with it all the time. I don't have a problem with Christians, just fundies of any stripe.

[movonne]

2. I am against all religions when they turn to fundamentalism. That is where

all the problems start. There are some wonderful Christians and Muslims.

[GreenPartyVoter]

4. Yeah, it's the zealotry that freaks me out.

http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/liberalchristians.htm

[frank frankly]

36. bingo, movonne

there are sure a lot of emboldened fundamentalists these days...

yikes.

[DAGDA56]

3. I really haven't seen much religion bashing at DU...what I have seen...

...is more like "the religion I grew up with just isn't for me anymore"... a very adult way to behave, IMO. I suspect there are adults who have grown up in the tradition of Islam, and might sound like they were bashing it, if they were on a search for something else.

[Blue_Chill]

5. heh.

hehehe.

[DAGDA56]

8. I'm sorry...

...am I missing something?

[theboss]

11. I think you are

There's a thread on this page where religion is called brainwashing and child abuse.

[kiahzero]

17. As one of the people who called it child abuse, that's a misrepresentation

Fundamentalist religion is emotionally abusive when it teaches young children that they must believe and behave a certain way to avoid eternal damnation.

[theboss]

24. So, religion is child abuse

One of Christianity's basic principles is that sin will be punished in eternity unless it is forgiven by Grace. How do you get around that?

[Beaker]

49. Grace? Grace who?

is god outsourcing the forgiveness biz?

I hope it's Grace Jones.

btw- why would a supposedly "loving" god punish his "children" with an eternity of torment, damnation, and treading water in the lake of fire, rather than just snuffing out their immortal soul?
(in that sense- my supposed heavenly father is just as big a sadistic prick as my earthly one)


the idea of "God" is just santa claus for grown-ups, and the big box under the tree is full of an eternity in paradise...

[Az]

56. Conundrums

Original sin. Its a big problem. It is the hook by which all are tainted with sin and the very reason some believe Jesus had to be sacrificed. Without accepting Jesus' sacrifice individuals are still tainted by this original sin and thus cannot enter heaven. Or at least that's how the story goes for some.

This creates a problem. What do you tell the parents of children that die before they can possibly even begin to be taught about Jesus? It certainly is a bad sales point to tell them that their newly departed child is going to suffer for eternity because they died in sin. Thus the various sects have invented a variety of outs for those that die without accepting Jesus. Ironically this creates a further conundrum. If they have invented these outs for these special cases then why do they bother to teach of Jesus or god at all. It certainly makes it risky to do so as the teaching may be rejected while living in ignorance seems to have become a protected state of being.

Ask yourself this. What if the truth was not something people wanted to learn. What if it was uncomfortable and difficult to teach. What if another story was competing for the minds of the people that was a much nicer story. Easier to accept. Even rewarded people in various ways for accepting. Which story do you think would survive over time? Now ask yourself what you should teach your children and how you came to know it.

[Mike Daniels]

64. Actually, I believe there is an age of accountability exception

somewhere in serveral interpretations.

Basically, if you pass on before one is able to technically comprehend the concept of salvation through Christ then you get a free pass to heaven.

I'd have to imagine that it also applies to individuals born so severely mentally challenged that they aren't able to grasp the concept either regardless of how long they live.

Honestly, in any picture you've seen of the Underworld of any major religion have you seen any newborns or young children?

[Az]

67. Many of the schisms

in Christian history were over some derivation of this point. All theories about the status of such individuals are all add ons. There is no clemancy spelled out in the bible. But religion being the evolutionary thing it is, such a notion had to be modified or the religion may have perished. An out had to be inserted. And all manner were.

[blondeatlast]

75. The wingnuts apparently believe that that age is up until birth.

:eyes:

[theboss]

69. Join a church that doesn't believe in original sin

Then you don't have to worry about it.

[Az]

71. Thats not the way belief flows

People do not join a church which offers them the best rewards for the least cost. They go to that which best fits their understanding of the universe about them. And as Richard Dawkins suggests this is likely prdicated largely on the religion of their parents.

[theboss]

72. Original Sin is a Catholic dogma

That's why infants need to be baptized. Most Protestant churches (at least the ones I go to) don't believe in Original Sin.

[blondeatlast]

74. And I've seen worse.

[blondeatlast]

73. LOL. Yep.

[No2W2004]

6. Like most people

I don't have a problem with religion, just the people who want to ram theirs down my throat

[Ohio Dem]

7. To me, Christians and Muslims aren't as different from one another as they

think they are. I don't believe in either, but it's my understanding that it's the same basic God that both worship. (Jews, too). I think that religion is fine for others (apparently, it keeps them moral. I don't need religion to be moral, but that's just me), as long as they don't force it on people or make war over it.

Christians and Muslims are both guilty, from time to time, of using religion for decidedly irreligious goals. So are other religions, of course. This is not a condemnation of any religion, just a fact.

I will stand and fight for people to be Christian or Muslim (or whatever) in this country if they want to be. I am neither, but that doesn't change my belief in freedom of religion.

[Union Thug]

9. I'm an ...

... equal opportunity religious nutcake basher. The thing is, it's just that the American christian churches are the most hypocritical and obnoxious... Pentacostals and Evangelicals are much more worthy of bashing than, say, Greek Orthodox... =)

[Blue_Chill]

10. I think that right now Fundie Islam open sore on the face of the planet

I used to be a christian....but I have no definition a the moment. I have a mixed bag based mostly on experience. I know it isn't PC to say but fundie Islam is as vile as christianity was at the time of the 'hammer of witches' and the inquisitions. It handles all dissent with extreme violence. It similarly seeks to prevent woman from independence and destroy those that have already acheived it.

Someone has to say it.

I have no problem with normal Islam, it's actually very interesting. But I have to call a spade a spade and what I see is a backward thinking people spreading like a cancer and harming inspiring their members to kill others and oppress their own in large numbers.

[theboss]

13. I'm close to your opinion

I don't like to say Islam is a cancer because cancers need to be eradicated. I think Islam needs a Reformation because there is little or not concept of the separation of church and state in it. That concept has existed in "Christian" nations for several hundred years, which is why we don't stone heretics anymore.

[Blue_Chill]

16. I certainly don't wish to imply eradication

But the only way for their to be change is for the problem to be stated. Islam is going thru what Christianity went through long ago. They are the ones that will have to reject it, no amount of outside violence can force people to evolve.

[theboss]

20. I agree that the West can't bomb Islam into Modernity

And this is where all Western countries have been ridiculously short-sighted. The version of Islam preached by the most vocal, notorious, and sadly most popular clerics in the Middle East is a religion that is largely incompatible with Life in the 21st Century. Wahabiism is essentially an attack on Modernity.

But there are Muslims who can reconcile their religion with the modern worlds' values of equality and tolerance. It's just that the West doesn't seem to have any idea how to deal with these types of leaders. So instead of trying to build up this alternative, we simply attack the most radical - which only serves to prove their argument that we are the Great Satan.

[Kool Kitty]

40. Actually, I believe that Mr Ashcroft has had the

stoning of heretics added to the second part of the Patriot Act. ;-)

[Trajan]

29. I usually disagree with you ...

Not this time: good post ....

Human beings of EVERY kind can act 'poorly' ... Some within Islam today just happen to be acting very 'poorly' ... They think torture and killing are A-ok .... Somehow: I am not surprised ...

Same as it ever was ....

[0007]

39. You have indeed changed since our last discourse, 'eh?

Tell me my friend, how long have you been living in the states?

[Catch22Dem]

12. That's unfair!

I hate all religions equally! ;) :evilgrin:

ON EDIT: I don't consider myself "anti-religious." More like "pro-free-thought"

[markses]

14. As an atheist

I find certain tenets and practices of "Christianity" life-denying, and certain tenets and practices of "Islam" life-denying. I mark each with quotation marks, because neither is ONE THING, or one uniform set of practices. Rather, both have a tendency to fork as they interact with the life worlds of different populations over time. There is no Christianity, as a unified set of beliefs or practices, just as there is no Islam as a unified set of belief or practices. There are, rather, groups that encounter and engage already transformed sets of beliefs and practices, and further transform them as they adapt them to local life needs and wants.

In short, there is no Christainity, and there is no Islam - and probably, there never has been. There are, rather, multiple sets of beliefs and practices that cut across diverse population groups, at the same time that those groups interact with and transform them. Seeking out consistencies across these interactions is tenuous - and, I think, generally dangerous.

That said, one must admit that certain tenets and practices of Christianity and certain tenets and practices of Islam are life-affirming, and serve to cement the life of communities without requiring the destruction or denial of other communities.

[Gildor Inglorion]

15. Islam? Worst. Religion. Ever....

and that's saying a mouthful!

[Union Thug]

25. Oh come on..

Zionism? The irony of the fascist jewish state strikes me as pretty god awful.. and so does the abortion clinic bombing nutcakes of American brand x fundie fame. Marx was right about religion. Not only is it the opiate of the masses, it's also a scourge that should be removed from society. I agree with the Soviets on this one.

On Edit, let me just add, before the lecture on anti-semitism comes along, I cant stand any of them. All religions are equally psychotic. I don't care if they're bible thumping dipshits sending knee mail to big daddy in the sky, wall kissing palestinian killers, or virgins in the after life tootie fruity muslims. All the same bitch to me

[Muddleoftheroad]

30. But hey, there's no prejudice here

[Trajan]

37. Nevermind ....

I dislike all religions equally: but you already know that ....

I could go into a long windy spiel about how being against "Fascist" Judaism is no different than being against "Fascist" 'any-other-religion-that-happens-to-be-fascist' religions ...

But frankly: I havent got the time ....

[blondeatlast]

76. Explain. On "the site that must never be uttered," you can toss out

a reply like that.
Not here.

We have, whaddyacallem?; oh yeah, BRAINS!

[PragMantisT]

18. I am an atheist

And think that all religions are the result of hallucinogenics, typically rye ergotism.

Given the opportunity, I bash them all. Christians just happen to be the most prevalent in the US.

Mormons are fun to mock, but sometimes they are the only ones who speak English in foreign countries, so I get to talk to them. Scientologists are fun to make fun of too. Jehovah's witnesses are a huge larf. Someday I hope to mock Baha'i.

[markses]

21. LOL! Rye Ergotism? You and Gordon Wasson!

But you really should call them entheogens if you want to make that claim. ;-)

(You know, of course, that ergotism will generally kill or maim people, and that one would have to either develop techniques to extract the ergonovine while avoiding the far more dangerous ergotamine and ergotoxine alkaloids, or, alternately, a way of identifying species that contain only the hallucinogenic alkaloids, like Claviceps paspali)

[kichigai usagi]

19. It's a Fundemented problem.

Fundementalists of any religion are a threat to world peace. No matter the flavor..Christian, Muslim, Jewish ,Buddhist, rastaferian. Fundies are united in their efforts to eliminate all other truths and replace them with the REAL truth (their own of course.)

Personally i feel that anyone who needs a big brother type religion to set guide lines and rules to make them work and play well with others need help! Personal responsability is the key to Good Morals and social peace, not Dogma.

We should just ban Fundies and send them to little isolation camps where they can preach to each other and leave the rest of the world alone!

[sweetheart]

22. Islam is against feminism and womans rights

and for that reason, i have a rather low opinion of it. Every single
encounter i've had with islam has shown marked repression of women
by either the total lack of public equality for women, or worse
yet no women visible at all, and a culture of men, hiding their
women like furniture in their houses.

I think it is wrong to support any state, islamic or otherwise that
supports repression of women, no matter what their theological
reasons... as in reality, the reasons are crap... and the results
are low education, low mortality, low democracy and low human rights.

Malaysia claims to be a more progressive islamic state, yet
it is hardly a democracy. Frankly i have the same problem with any
religion that is not showing in front of my eyes 50% women. If i
see a bunch of christian whacko's claiming divine rights of kings
without a fair complement of woman, i have the same concerns..
however, islamic nations are on a much lower level, and have basic
human rights issues, pretty much across the board.

On this one count, islam has proven to be a false and repressive
religion at best. I guess that fundamentalism of all sorts is a
very patriarchal thing, and in truth, all dogma and beliefs are
suspect, rather an open mind and "ideas" instead of beliefs are
much more interesting. This world is no place for a feminist,
pretty much the whole place is rigged to repress.

[blondeatlast]

77. Plenty of "stuff" like that in the Bible and the Talmud, too.

And I am a practicing Christian.

No philosophy is perfect. None.

[Az]

82. A fixed ethical dogma and a changing social standard

We live in a continuously changing society that constantly discovers new aspects of itself. Yet our religous doctrines contain fixed ethical positions. There are going to be problems. A religion that cannot find a way to adopt the new social values will find itself hard pressed to propogate effectively. Thus it may pit itself against the new values or may fade away. Religions don't like to fade away.

[mitchum]

23. A sky god believer by any other name...

To each his own (just leave me alone)

[Az]

26. An explanation

I am an active atheist but I hope I have not conveyed myself as an apostate. I do believe I have insite into why there is the perception of antiChristian rhetoric from those that are not religious.

There are a number of reasons this comes about. A personal apsect of it has to do with the culture from which an atheist may originate. That is many atheists are raised within a particular religion. For any number of reasons they break free of the belief system. Maybe its neurological. Maybe its environment. Whatever the reason they are suddenly struck by the "Big Lie". Whatever religion they came from becomes tainted in their eyes. It's actions grasping and controling. Their reaction to it becomes aggressive mostly because they are concerned for others that they believe are caught up by what they have discerned to be a lie. Just as Christians can be concerned for nonbelievers souls skeptics can be concerned for those beholden to what they believe to be a delusion.

Another and perhaps more important aspect is the cutlural background we find ourselves in. This is a combined effect. Our society is god soaked. God is on billboards, tv, radio, door to door, its everywhere in our society. And due to the dominance of Christianity in our particular culture it is of course going to be the most heavily represented. If there is a religious threat to our way of life it is most likely to come from a branch of Christianity. It is organized Christians leading the assault on women's reproductive rights. It is fundimentalist Christians trying to stuff the 10 commandments into our courts and classrooms. It is Christian Creationists assailing the teaching of evolution in our schools.

A further consideration is found in the evolutionary nature of religions. Religions that do not survive die out. Same as biology. Instead of biological replication religions survive by propogating amongst human minds. Using a variety of means of assuring their replication they strive to survive. A number of religions have proven succesfull using a variety of tactics in surviving in this environment.

Some religions are passive in how they propogate travelling along family lines primarily. Keeping tightly knit tribal communities these groups depend on the survival of their familial associations surviving themself.

Others are more aggressive seeking to convert new people into their belief systems. Christianity is one of the most aggressive such structures. Throughout history whenever Christianity has gained control of a society it has purged all other religious thought within the community. Using a variety of tactics to accomplish this our calanders stand as silent reminders of just a few of the religions that have fallen to Christianities advance.

So from the point of view of a nonChristian the belief can seem to be intimindating. We are not innundated by Muslems trying to convert us. We are not pressed by Muslems trying to demand our children pray or be taught their particular creation story. Our courts are not used by them as pulpits. Our history is not dominated by the destructive purge (as seen by a nonChristian) of all beliefs before them.

Of course part of the problem here is that Christianity after the rise of the Age of Enlightenment has splintered into a 1000+ factions. Each of which retain their own particular methodologies and beliefs. Most nonChristians cannot be expected to know the colorings and markings of each and every branch of the belief set and thus, unfortunately, sweep all an any into the same broad category.

[seabeyond]

27. has been a couple years since reading

i believe there are 5 pillars of the koran and it is a very gentle and peaceful religion and then i believe there are two more. and i know i am missing this all up, but this is where mohummad steps in, and it becomes very aggressive and violent and reminds me just of the old testament and even more so..........

so though we like to say that islam is a peaceful religion just like christianity it has its steps of fundamentalism that allows the preaching of converting the world and destroying all those that are not followers.

i say that christianity and islamic religion are so close in paralell that i just giggle when one or the other butt heads.

[Bombtrack]

Islam is in a league of it's own in how much it's fucking people

Sorry, you can talk about the Qu'ran in whatever flowery terms you want, maybe it's great on paper just like any other religion can be said to be, it's being driven by just wrongness, just insanity. I know people would turn on there high flames if I said evil, and I don't even think evil is the right word for it, but it's just a perfect storm of ignorance, racism, cheavenism, and primal animalistic hatred that is way more widespread than people here seem to want to talk about.

Of course not all or most muslims are terrorists or willing to terrorize, but virtually all of the terrorists that really pose a relative threat to us right now are muslims, and they do pose a threat. And of course by "us" I mean this country. People in Topeka probably don't have that much to personally watch their back about.

Christian fundementalists are frigging ignoramouses and severe hinderances to US societal progress. But, only the nuttiest of the the nuttiest of the nuttiest of them are any more than that. There are are a few dozen real potential terrorists at most among them, and of them, probably less than half a dozen will ever really do any newsworthy violent act, and the ones who do will probably be shunned by there slightly less nutty comrades.

In the middle east, Osama is a frigging hero to MILLIONS.

[riverwalker]

28. Karen Armstrongs book

"Muhammad: Biography of the Prophet" is a good resource for those who like to form their own opinions.

[Muddleoftheroad]

31. Most Muslims are great people

And their religion deserves respect as do their beliefs. If we viewed everyone in the world by the fringe members of their respective groups, everyone would hate everyone.

[Az]

34. Most Christians are great people

But like the Muslems the more inclusive and tolerant voices in their community are typically only heard by other tolerant Christians. The voice directed out towards the world is typically that of the loud reactionary. Thus most peoples perspective of Islam is that of a terrorist and the perspective of most nonChristians is that of the loud mouthed fundimentalist trying to take our rights away.

[Egalitarian]

32. I don't usually think about it(nt)

[DoNotRefill]

33. I think Islam has the same problems as all organized religions have....

Extremists.

[Arugula Latte]

35. To be honest, I dislike both about equally

and frankly both lead to oppression, war, the stifling of scientific knowledge, and a tremendous waste of time and resources.

That's my opinion; you asked.

Now, unlike the zealots who have the gall to come to my door and fucking try to tell me what to believe, I won't knock on any religious peoples' doors and tell them they are on the wrong path and believing in fairy tales.

[physioex]

38. I can't stand organized religion.

It's nothing more than mind control for the weak minded. Call it whatever you want Islam, Christianity. However I do have some respect for the Buddhist, the have not been shown to be violent. More people have been killed in the name of god than all other reasons combined. Strange don't you think especially when all of us share the same god.

[prodigal_green]

41. I will mock anyone who believes in fairy tales

And those people are usually fundamentalists.

Normal people seem to be able to extract the underlying philosophy of their religion and use it as a guide for living. Fundies of all stripes believe that this or that character flies through the air, turns water to wine, zaps the planet into being, etc. And that is worthy of mocking.

[Muddleoftheroad]

43. Yes, the perennial open-mindedness of the anti-religionists

[LeahMira]

45. You could make a contribution here...

Yes, the perennial open-mindedness of the anti-religionists

... by explaining how these traditional beliefs are of value.

The poster claimed that: "Fundies of all stripes believe that this or that character flies through the air, turns water to wine, zaps the planet into being, etc."

Well, not all religious people, fundies or otherwise, believe these specific items. They do believe similar items, though. What they believe does defy logic, not to mention much that has been learned about how things operate in the world.

So... of what value are these beliefs? How do they contribute to living a fuller and more meaningful life? Or take it wherever you feel is appropriate.

If "anti-religionists" are failing to be open-minded in this area, well, I think most people here are at least willing to take another look. If there is some value to believing that someone can turn water into wine, for instance, what is it? Or is it that you object to the marginalizing of a group of individuals simply because they hold traditional beliefs? Or what?

[Muddleoftheroad]

52. About 100 hate religion threads ago I gave up

If you don't believe traditional beliefs are of value, then I can't convince you or others to change your mind. I tried and got called everything from an "idiot" to a "Jesus freak" as a result.

It would be nice to encounter some genuine open-minded tolerance of other views though.

Nah, that seems to be asking too much.

No, what religious people believe does NOT defy logic. It simply doesn't agree with YOUR VIEW of logic. There is one heck of a difference.

[SidDithers]

61. Well then why not just skip threads like this...

Rather than throwing comments like the ones above and opening yourself up to more abuse?

Sid

[blondeatlast]

81. Plenty of the anti-religion zealots have taken hits in this thread, too.

Should they have ignored it, too?

[blondeatlast]

80. I gave up, too. I thought this thread might have

a reasonable discussion, but it's just more finger-pointing, name-calling, and lumping the open-minded from both sides in with the zealots.

Sigh.

[LeahMira]

83. Whoa there, Muddle!

If you don't believe traditional beliefs are of value, then I can't convince you or others to change your mind.

I do hold some traditional beliefs, although they are not Christian ones. I can tell you something of what I see as the value of these beliefs... but I asked you first.


I tried and got called everything from an "idiot" to a "Jesus freak" as a result.

Well, take a deep breath and try again. I don't believe I've ever called anyone a "Jesus freak" in my life, and I'd guess there are many here who also have not. Painting people with a broad brush is what I think you are accusing others of doing.

Now "idiot" I'll admit to using from time to time.


No, what religious people believe does NOT defy logic. It simply doesn't agree with YOUR VIEW of logic. There is one heck of a difference.

Fine. The other poster cited the belief that water could be turned into wine miraculously. With what view of logic does that correspond? What difference does that belief make in how well a person lives?


Actually, Muddle, I would have gone for the idea that you simply stand against marginalizing anyone. If you had, we might be having a whole other discussion. But you didn't bite for that one. I hope you don't run away, begging hurt feelings, from this one. Any number of people that you call "anti-religionists" are that way because they also have hurt feelings caused in some way by organized religion. You didn't cause those hurt feelings, but you could help ease them.

To tell you a bit more, though, I did not, myself, start off life as a person who is Jewish. I converted. There are many reasons, but one statement by Edmond Fleg is especially meaningful to me... "I am a Jew because the faith of Israel demands of me no abdication of the mind." (http://www.csuohio.edu/tagar/why.htm)

[Violet_Crumble]

54. I think everyone bar fundies would agree with what the poster said...

Maybe you misread the post, because any mockery aimed at fundies, no matter what stripe they are, is well-deserved, and being an atheist has zero to do with it. If you didn't misread the post, maybe you could explain why we're supposed to be tolerant of religious fundamentalists who insist on trying to force their religious beliefs onto others and who act as though anyone who doesn't walk in lockstep with their distorted religious beliefs are less worthy beings than they are?

Violet...

[Muddleoftheroad]

57. You should try reading

The post said: "I will mock anyone who believes in fairy tales And those people are usually fundamentalists.

Normal people seem to be able to extract the underlying philosophy of their religion and use it as a guide for living. Fundies of all stripes believe that this or that character flies through the air, turns water to wine, zaps the planet into being, etc. And that is worthy of mocking."

Note the word, "usually." Note the words, "fairy tales." Yeah, the post exuded tolerance.

Not.

As for being tolerant of fundamentalists, a truly tolerant person would try to tolerate and understand all beliefs and not simply mock those they disagree with.

[Violet_Crumble]

62. I did, which is why I pointed it out to you...

They made a clear distinction between fundies and normal religious folk...

Since when has the word 'usually' been intolerant?? And since when has someone who doesn't believe in god saying that they don't believe in fairy tales intolerant? What's intolerant is to think that it's intolerant for them to express their views...

As for being tolerant of fundamentalists, a truly tolerant person would try to tolerate and understand all beliefs and not simply mock those they disagree with.

As a woman, I have major difficulties with tolerating fundamentalists of any religion because of their deep-seated hostility towards women. I'm open-minded, but not so much that my brain seeps out through my ears. Truly tolerant people understand that there's other beliefs out there but theirs, but truly tolerant people do not have to tolerate religious extremists. Tell you what. If you believe they should, you can lead the way and put yr money where yr mouth is. The minute I see you showing any level of tolerance for Islamic fundamentalists, I'll give you a round of applause for taking yr own advice, but don't expect me to follow the lead, what with my total lack of tolerance for Islamic fundamentalists, or fundamentalists of any other religion...

Violet...

[Az]

63. Tolerance

Its a tricky thing tolerance. Do you tolerate the intolerant? Do you welcome with open arms all beliefs? Even beliefs that would seem to be clearly destructive? What about those beliefs that are not so clearly destructive but you percieve a path of destruction within them?

Tolerance should perhaps reserve itself a bit. Not total absolute open armed mind so open your brain falls out tolerance. But perhaps a discerning tolerance. But unfortunately not everyone draws the line in the same place. Tricky isn't it?

[dawn]

42. I'm not anti-religious, but...

I have a great respect for Islam. It's the fundies I don't like (in any religion.)

[mopaul]

44. I don't know any muslims

and no muslim has ever given me a reason to dislike him. of course, i don't want to be killed by a muslim extremist, or a methodist extremist. la zay fare i say.

i don't care if one worships a can of beans, just don't kill me or mine, and we'll get along fine.

[RebelOne]

46. I don't bash any religion. Too each his own.

[Malva Zebrina]

47. what is "anti-religious"?

There are a lot of people here who are bashing fundamentalists Christians--painting them all with a bigoted broad brush--even saying that Bush is not a "real" Christian when clearly Bush is a Christian and all those that do not practice their religion as they do are whackos. :shrug:

Is that being "anti-religious"? Clearly there are limitations on how one can determine who is "anti-religious" if it is that important an issue. Clearly, it cannot be applied only to non theists if it can be applied at all.

I am an atheist and am not interested in any god, except to study history and phenomena of religion so I don't think the term "anti=religious would apply to me or others like me who are non theists.

[Vladimir]

48. Why bash?

I am an agnostic with a serious grudge against 'organised' religions. I tend to view Christians/Muslims/Hindus etc. as wrong but they can believe whatever they want. As long as no-one is trying to convert me, who cares?

V

[Beaker]

50. I don't have a problem with religions...

just with the people that adhere to them.

[qb]

51. To the extent that they bash atheists, they suck.

Regarding comments about the "backward" nature of many Muslim countries, I don't think it would look that much different if fundamentalist Christian groups were in charge of vast poverty-stricken regions of the world. The Bible provides plenty of justification for committing atrocities in the name of "God".

[Muddleoftheroad]

55. How about the atheists who bash religion

Like in the infinite anti-religion threads?

[Violet_Crumble]

59. People can criticise religion, Muddle...

There's a world of difference between attacking people because they're not religious, and people who aren't religious criticising organised religions. The little experience I've had of this 'bash religion' thing is one thread where someone accused others of personally attacking him and his religious beliefs because they dared to point out some home truths about Mother Theresa. My other experience was when I was discussing something with another poster and mentioned that as an atheist I couldn't swear any oaths to a god that I don't believe exists and referred to the bible as the Holy Babble. Someone uninvolved to that point in the discussion descended on me like a horde of banshees and shrieked at me that I (referred to at all times in that post as something along the lines of 'one of the legions of the Godless!!!') personally attacked them by attacking their religion, blah blah blah. The moral of the story is that unfortunately there are some people who won't tolerate any criticism of organised religion without trying to twist it into an attack on them personally...

Violet...

[Daedalus]

79. So...

If I was to attack atheism would you take it as a personal attack?

[Disturbed]

53. A direct honest answer

I don't like the religion. Of course, I don't like most that I
am aware of.

Islam- No alcohol, gambling, homosexuality, lending. Women-second class. That's a few reasons.

I don't like it when any religious people are extreme to a point that they insist that others have to follow their rules, laws and beliefs.

[LWolf]

58. No, sorry.

No mocking.

I am not an athiest or agnostic, or even "anti-religious," although I don't think of myself as "religious." Spiritual, yes. But I have an ingrained distrust of organized religion. What do I think of Islam? I think the same of Islam as I do of Christianity and Judaism.

There are universal truths and positive messages in there somewhere, but the human organization warps the truth and the message into something new. Most of the doctrine/dogma is created by imperfect, or incomplete, human understanding, and feeds the insatiable human need to feel secure. "My way is the only right way; everyone else is an infidel/pagan/whatever. My way is the only way to God/Spirit/Universe..." I could point out positives and negatives for Islam. And for Christianity, and for Judaism. They all come from the same source, and they are all equal, IMO.

I have a personal theory: That people are attracted to the faith, or the path, or the belief, that holds what they are able to understand, and that holds the lessons they are ready to learn in this lifetime. That all of those faiths/paths/beliefs have lessons to offer, but that none of them are complete. Tolerance means not judging another's path or lesson; we either may have already been there once, or are on the way there in the future.

[mmonk]

60. Don't like the wording

People who aren't religious aren't necessarily anti-religious. "Anti" indicates "against" instead of prefering not to be religious themselves.

[RafterMan]

65. Don't like it

When visiting muslim countries, I found the sheer amount of religion oppressive. It makes the Bible Belt look like purgatory. Islam grew up as the key mechanism for social control in the Arab empire and you can really feel it. Bow to your conqueror five times a day -- yech. At least American style cultural imperialism doesn't make you prostrate yourself before Mickey. The relative invisibility of women does not help the atmosphere.

Unfortunately, much of the totalitarianism within Islam is doctrinal. A Christian reformer could go to the omnipresent Catholic church and say "Ha! You're not in the gospels...", but Muhammed was the theocratic ruler of his own religious state. Also, Islam has the disadvantage of being more historical than Chrisianity, so it seems harder to use the mists of time as a way to blur the sharp edges and adapt it to today's needs.

These objections do not transfer to the muslim people, who seem no worse, and sometimes better than anybody else. And there are strong points -- I love the sound of the muezzins, and bought several koranic chant tapes to bring home.

But on the whole I think people would be better off without it.

[carolinayellowdog]

66. Every other religion's worst enemy-- and that of nonbelievers

Hey,

The most striking thing about Islam is that is has (at present and/or in the past) difficult relations with *every* other religion it interacts with. If you ask Christians, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, Zoroastrians, and maybe even Buddhists "what other world religion is the most dangerous to your well-being?" they'd *all* probably rank Islam first. That has not always been the case, as for centuries Muslims treated Jews far better than Christians did.

My theory is that the bottom line evil element in religion is a god who commands "kill your enemies, and unbelievers are your enemies." Judaism and Christianity both inherit that from the Old Testament. Christianity and rabbinical Judaism are siblings, rather than child and parent, since the parent of both is dead-- Temple Judaism. They've been fighting over their inheritance ever since the parent died. But Judaism and Christianity both have large doses of Hellenistic thought which tends to leaven the violence of Yahweh. They both have significant texts and teachers opposing violence. (Including the founder, in the case of Christianity, which has not preventing Christians from murdering one another over religion in massive numbers.) Islam gets a double dose of Yahweh style "kill the unbelievers" violence, deriving from both Judaism and Christianity, and somewhat less leavening from other traditions.

The Indic religions aren't perfect in this regard, with Sikhism and Hinduism both having rather bloody records in recent years. But their violent history seems somewhat more accidental (due to contact with expansionist Islam) than essential. Buddhism in particular is much less dangerous to non-Buddhists than the Abrahamic religions have been to unbelievers.

None of this means that there aren't plenty of Muslims who embrace peace and want to live in harmony with unbelievers. There are. But the weight of tradition makes violence a more inherent element of the faith, and harder to struggle against, than in most other traditions.

My take,

CYD

[Az]

70. The real reason

Islam is currently the fastest growing sect in the world. Where once it was a tribal/family based religion not terribly interested in evangelizing it has now begun seeking converts. It is poaching in territory claimed by Christianity. The Vatican has reacted to its advances in areas they already heavily evangelize in.

Islam was entering into a stage similar to the enlighenment experienced by western society about 500 years ago. The social end economic pressures were beginning to force inclusion of more humanistic means of determing social values. As the various sects of their beliefs vied with each other it would have eventually become a financial/social necessity to allow the people to be free from the demands of the religious dogma. But the injection of money from oil and military jockeying from the west killed this change. It revived the waning religious institutions allowing them to not only reassert their hold on the people but also to begin to use the wealth to spread their particular word.

A religious culture has difficulty spreading from an economically weak culture. With the influx of new finance the word of Allah found new strength with which to spread. The economic strength brought by oil enabled it to spread from a reawakened position. With these advances comes new conflict. Old truces are broken. Balance is disturbed. Fanatics find new recruits. Chaos rises.

[Mari333]

68. Just another patriarchal religion like christianity and judaism

same o same o run by men. interpreted by males in a myriad of different ways.
Tiresome to me, all those adolescent men on every side fighting like kids over male gods. Deadly, actually. To the world.

[Gin]

78. Saw this on a documentary about Isalm...the first Muslim follower

was a woman...the religion has been adulterated by men over the years...same with Catholicsm.

Poor, pathetic, insecure men who need to dominate because they are so weak...and poor, insecure females who need to be dominated stay in these organized religions.

[randr]

84. Recently PBS aired a very beautiful documentary

about Islam. It looked at three different people dong the Hajj thing and opened my eyes to how seriously Islamic people take their faith. They are far more rooted in the spiritual aspects of their religion than the Christians and many of the Jew I know.
I can see similarities between the three middle eastern faiths and am amazed they do not recognize their common roots.
Seems to me we are all still suffering because of a fight that started back with Cain and Abel. I wish they would just get over it!

[BonjourUSA]

85. No god deserves the alienation of our mind.

Allah or any one else.

For instance, this morning, an Imam was questioned in a French paper (in Lyon). He said to beat his wife is normal because that's written in Koran and all the planet should be muslim. The major of Lyon and the French Ministry of Justice are going to file a suit against him.

Someone could say : that's an human translation of the Allah's words. But Allah spelled Koran to Mohamed and it is the holy law over the human law

[Skinner]

86. I'm locking this.

We don't need a thread specifically for the purposes of bashing a particular religion.