Pay: The Gender Gap.

[Cleita]

<snip>

A woman's work is never done. Though you might not know it to look at her paycheck.

According to U.S. Census Bureau statistics, women make on average 25 percent less than men. This is, however, a marked improvement over 1970, when women made 41 percent less.

It Varies By Race
The pay gap differs by race, with the earnings of white women being just 72 percent of those of white men; black women making 82 percent as much as their male counterparts; and Hispanic women earning 83 percent of what Hispanic men earn. The Rutgers School of Management Relations says this is primarily because white men still earn the most among all groups of workers.

It's Wider Among Professionals
Regardless of educational level, men out-earn women. For example, in 2000, college educated women earned just $5,000 more a year than male high school graduates.<snip>

more...

http://msn.careerbuilder.com/Custom/MSN/CareerAdvice/197.htm?

So white males still make most of the money. It seems we still have a long way to go, baby.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

1. because men are chosen for different job fields

as in women get customer service..men get sales...sales pay more...its also more than direct sexism..its assumed gender traits...

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Skittles]

3. yes, it does take that into account

nt

[Cleita]

4. Kick

:kick:

[Nikia]

5. Women are judged both as an employee and a woman

That can really work against her when it comes to being promoted. For example for a position requiring a lot of assertiveness, she may have to be more assertive than her male collegues because she is automatically assumed to be less assertive because she is a woman. If she is too assertive though, even though this may be less assertive than the most assertive male managers, they judge her as mean and pushy because women aren't suppse to be overly assertive. She can find it difficult to win in this situation.

[Cleita]

7. Yeah, if a woman is assertive they call her a bitch.

A man is regarded as a firm leader.

[Nadienne]

12. they call her a bitch...

...and uppity; her ambitions and aspirations get used even while she gets demeaned.

[apnu]

6. Real life story...

My office, a financial corporation (who will remain anonymous, because I need the work) is a boy's club. I asked the sales manager why there wasn't one woman, or minority in our division. The response was "They can't do the work because they can't handle the pressure"

I kid you not... but I have mouths to feed so I'm quiet about it (for now)

There's a ton of work to be done against racism and sexism in this country, and it's worst in the business world.

[Cleita]

8. In my day they said that we cry too easily.

Boo hoo!

[apnu]

9. Which I've thought was a strange idea...

... In my 30 year's I've never seen a woman cry on the job. Not at this job, of course, I have seen men cry: when being fired and when doing the firing... but I've never seen a woman cry on the job.

I have no idea where people get this stuff. "can't handle the pressure" and "cry too much"... I just doesn't make any sense to me.

[BlackVelvetElvis]

13. Remember Patricia Schroeder?

She's a former congresswoman from Co. and was going to run for president in '88.
When she pulled out of the race, she cried on national tv and the rightwingers jumped all over her for crying and (if my memory serves me correctly) they equated it with women are too emotional to be president.
That mindset still exists.
I still have my Pat Schroeder bumper sticker.

[Cleita]

23. Well, since then we have seen men cry on television,

when being interviewed about the things that caused them to cry. So crying isn't a female emotion but a human one.

[brook]

26. She was always a favorite of mine. n/t

[brook]

15. Haha...

Had a manly man on the job once who was trying to make me cry. The upshot of our little encounter was his whining that "no woman has ever talked to me that way! I nearly knocked you on your ass." I said I regretted he had not - because I'd have ended up with his ticket, his truck and his two 7-11's. This scenario played out repeatedly over a week or so - my boss warned me that the guy
was 'connected' and I should back off. I didn't, of course.

It was annoying to spend time and energy dealing with these yo-yos. And yes, I was often told that I was abrasive. Nobody ever said I wasn't good at my job though.

[Cleita]

24. Yeah, when I was a bartender, more than one drunk threatened

me with physical violence. I just told them to come and get me if they dared. They didn't.

[Cleita]

29. Another kick for anyone who cares.

:kick:

[spooky3]

18. It's better to cry on the job than to be blissfully incompetent.

[durutti]

10. Just to play devil's advocate...

Now, there certainly is a pay gap between men and women that can't be accounted for due to experience, education, etc. Anyone who says differently is kidding her- or himself.

The question is: why is there a gap? Is it sexism? At least some of it certainly is. But could there be another factor at work -- namely, biology?

What if women have evolved to be naturally less competitive, more likely to want to stay at home, and less motivated, or perhaps better with verbal than mathematical ability?

Now, I'm not saying that this is necessarily the case. I'm just presenting arguments that I've heard, and that need to be confronted in a forum like this one so that we know how to respond to it in public forums. And of course, we should value truth over ideology in any case.

[Cleita]

11. As long as you don't believe these arguments I will play.

These same arguments have been used to keep women as servants by patriarchal societies in the past, yet women have always had to work. Whether they supplemented the family income with weaving and making clothing or tending the family garden and selling the surplus eggs and vegetables, women have always had jobs.

The problem is when equal pay and promotion is denied to women in the same field because they are women. I mean there are many examples of successful women in history and in the most sexist of circumstances, who have proved that they are every bit as able to do the work as the men. So how about getting us those pay raises, huh?

[Nadienne]

14. Biology...

You mean, like, competitive traits and strong-headedness have been bred out of many women because many men find/found subservience and meekness more appealing than strength and assertion?

[durutti]

19. Could be...

Another argument would be that because men tended to be the hunters in primitive human societies, they've evolved to become more aggressive than women.

[Nadienne]

30. But I have to say,

Aggression does exist in women. In some cases, women are more aggressive than men: they have to fight harder to get the same regard. I wouldn't say aggression in women is rare, either. It seems to be becoming more common.

I think this arguement tries to argue away reality. It is the way it is, but according to this arguement, it "shouldn't be" this way.

[Pithlet]

16. Don't worry.

Those who make those arguments will be along here shortly, I'm certain.

Along with those who think that we're just playing the victim by pointing out the sexism that still exists regarding this issue.

[pmbryant]

17. These arguments are more bigotry than biology

What if women have evolved to be naturally less competitive, more likely to want to stay at home, and less motivated, or perhaps better with verbal than mathematical ability?

First of all, women who stay home and are not part of the workforce are not counted in the studies that show that there is a very significant pay gap (even after accounting for experience, education, etc).

Next, women "less motivated"? This sounds like bigotry, not biology. Anyway, where is the evidence for this? Certainly my personal experience indicates nothing of the sort.

Finally, women "perhaps better with verbal than mathematical ability"? Again, this sounds like bigotry, not biology. Women, starting at a very young age, have been steered away from technical fields as long as those fields have existed. But even if this were somehow true, mathematics is important for only a tiny fraction of jobs. And even in those jobs, verbal ability is absolutely crucial to success. (EDIT: To be clear, I categorically reject any assertion that women are biologically less suited to technical fields than men. Such an attitude is blatantly bigoted, in my view.)

--Peter

EDIT: removed extraneous quotation marks

[durutti]

20. There are lots of mainstream books that claim to demonstrate such differen

Brain Sex and The Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature come to mind.

[pmbryant]

21. That doesn't mean anything by itself

There are also (racist) mainstream books that claim blacks are inherently less smart than whites (i.e., "The Bell Curve").

I looked up "Brain Sex" at Amazon.com and a perusal of the reviews there leads me to believe that it is in the same category: an attempt to justify bigotry via pseudo-scientific methods. But I haven't read it, so I can't really say for sure.

--Peter

EDIT: Changed 'much' to 'anything' in the subject line

[durutti]

28. True, but...

We can't dismiss something as pseudoscience just because it goes against our ideals. Books like The Bell Curve should be read and refuted on a scientific basis.

[Cleita]

31. The Bell curve has been refuted many times in the past in various

populist magazines like Scientific American.

[durutti]

32. I know. But again...

There are legitimate scientists who support pretty much anything you can think of, including The Bell Curve.

Supporters of The Bell Curve (of which I'm not one, but still) would say that what's been written against the book has been mostly polemical and ideological in nature -- that it was demonized just because it violated certain taboos.

[pmbryant]

35. LOL!

This is starting to sound like the global warming debate, or the tobacco-causes-cancer debate, etc.

:crazy:

--Peter

[Cleita]

25. Oh have you been reading those Venus and Mars books?

Trust me they are pure dog doodoos.

[durutti]

33. Ever hear of Steven Pinker?

The famous MIT (now Harvard) cognitive scientist? He was ranked as one of 100 most influential people in the country in Time this week. He's a big proponent of the innate sex differences theory.

[brook]

27. Haven't read the books...

but 30+ years mud wrestling in *the man's world* showed me the necessity to stand pat and present potty mouth. They only seemed to understand a sentence containing multiple forms of f**k. (I guess that's where the math comes in?)

[DebJ]

34. Ha! I agree! Reminds me of a story...

I was being transferrred as General Manager to a new restaurant location. The male personnel manager warned me in advance that "there is too much testosterone in this place!" Well, after a few weeks watching these bucks butt heads, I finally had it. They'd gone too far, wasting so much valuable time. I called the four of them into our incredibly small office space, shut the door, and then said, "Okay guys, put 'em back in your pants!" Too say they were shocked would be an understatement...I was not a potty mouth.
But hey, IT WORKED. This, they could understand!

:-)

[Cleita]

22. So true.

When I was very little I wanted to be a Merchant Marine. Over and over again I was told that women couldn't be merchants marines, so I was steered away from learning the things I would need as basic knowledge to learn engineering and the other professions associated with this.