The DRAFT: It's easy to send kids to war when they are not your own

[neverforget]

the draft, if it was done correctly, (ie no deferrments for school, marriage, etc) may actually stop the politicians if more of society had a stake in war. Right now, our country doesn't really care that much. The sons and daughters that are fighting and dying now volunteered for service. They knew what they were getting into because the military is used for one thing: to kill/destroy the enemy and win wars. (I volunteered for the Army in 1989 as a 19K, armor crewman, but was discharged at the end of Basic Training at Fort Knox due to a bad knee) Wars should be fought ONLY as a last resort. (We all know this war was not a last resort because of the circumstances leading up to it were lies.)

Right now, however, the only ones making ANY sacrifice in this war are the troops and their families. Bush hasn't asked for any American to sacrifice other than the troops, and to me, this is truly sickening. (I guess he did say go shopping after 9/11 :eyes:) As a nation with soldiers in the field, we should be sacrificing our money to pay for it now and not with our children's future. Can you imagine if suddenly we had to pay for this war now how the people would howl? In Bush's world, the first people he will sacrifice are the poor and middle classes with budget cuts and tax increases while his rich buddies continue to reap the benefits of his goal of zero taxes for the rich. The costs of this war and future wars need to be shared equally by all classes so as to make the burden heavy on everyone. But I do know one thing, what we are doing now will not change a thing because few families have a REAL stake in this war.

In a perfect world, we wouldn't need a draft and Bush wouldn't be President. However, today's American is selfish and arrogant and out of touch. When the attitude is "me-first" and "screw you, I got mine", wars will continue to be fought by the volunteer military which is made of predominantly low and middle class people. America's attitude has to change from being a "me-firster" to one of community. With community comes shared sacrifice and concern about others.

I know I may get flamed by some here, but so be it. America needs to change and maybe the draft is a way start that change.

Sorry for the rambling......

on edit: bold added as i think this is the crux of my argument.

[Warpy]

1. It's just as easy if your kids

...are too young, too old, or too rich to go, which is usually the case with people who populate draft boards and Congress.

Military conscription is slavery. I can see it only as a last resort when the country faces desctruction from an attacking country or group of countries. I can't see it used to rescue a religious nut's vanity when god told him to start a war he cannot finish.

[bluestateguy]

2. Won't work

No matter how hard you try, no matter how many I's you dot and T's you cross, the wealthy WILL find ways to evade service. Any notion of a truly egalitarian draft is a fantasy. The good ole' boys will take care of their own.

[Guaranteed]

10. We don't need rich folks.

We need the middle-class. And that can be done.

[ugarte]

3. I see your point

that having a draft might conceivably deter the neocons' gung-ho rush to war, but I could also make the counter argument that if we had a large enough army at this moment, Bush would have invaded Syria or Iran. I truly believe all that's stopping him is that he doesn't have enough boots on the ground.

For that reason, having a smaller army is not all bad. As long as we're bogged down in Iraq, our capacity to do mischief elsewhere is limited.

[Kanary]

7. And the point is......

If *ALL* parents had to be concerned about this right now, there would be a lot more of us out on the streets, protesting!

There are other countries where such an overwhelming proportion of the population protested the war, and ade their voices heard that it had the effect of causing that country to NOT support and participate in this war. Where are all those mall-shopping parents, who see the war from the safety of their living room, and are detached because it doesn't affect their lives? If *THEY* were concerned about their kids involvment, I submit there would be a whole lot less apathy.

The *REAL* problem is so many people shrugging it off, because it doesn't connect to *their* lives.

Kanary

[Guaranteed]

11. "The *REAL* problem is so many people shrugging it off, because it doesn't

connect to *their* lives."

YES.

[bloom]

4. "if it was done correctly"

Well it wouldn't be done correctly - so it's better not to do it.

Just like Bush didn't serve, Cheney didn't serve, etc. VERY few politicains kids served. So it's meaningless to say "if it was done correctly".

If it were done correctly, there would be no (Iraq) war and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[neverforget]

5. Do you think that the way we are going now, things will change?

Do you think that if hundreds of thousands of 18-20 year olds were called up to go fight in Bush's war that maybe their parents would pay attention? Don't you think that there would be a political price for such a call to arms?

Americans are asleep right now in their own little world. A major dose of reality is what is needed to wake the people up to the cold hard facts that war requires sacrifice in terms of blood and money. Right now, we just put it on the credit card while someone else fights. No sacrifice from me equals no problem. That attitude has to change.

[AGD4y2357y]

6. Fatal mistake

what if we are "attacked" majorly and then they say we need a draft? What if the attack is on a level that people think "well hell I don't like it, but it HAS to be done".

Don't put anything past them.

[bloom]

12. I know too many people who are proud that their kids signed up

to have confidence that a draft would help.


I'm afraid there is too much media pressure on people and not enough of us to fight it. 40,000 on DU. Even if there were 1,000,000 people against it - I don't think it would make a dent.

You would just have people who would not be able to stand it going to Canada, becoming certifiably disabled, or various other things.

I was alive during the Vietnam War. Were you?

It took YEARS, and as someone else mentioned, Veterans Against the War - before anything changed.

I am not willing to advocate ANYTHING that would help the current adminstration turn our country into more of a killing machine. I think the draft would.

[AndyTiedye]

22. NO DRAFT! No cannon fodder for PNAC!

If Bush* gets the draft though, the Crusade will begin in earnest.
They need millions of troops to carry out PNAC's plans for conquest
and they know it. They'll say they just want to draft a few to make
up a little teeny shortfall, but we know better.

We MUST NOT give Bush* bipartisan "cover" for starting up the draft. If that happens,
he could even impose it before the election and get away with it.

> Do you think that if hundreds of thousands of 18-20 year olds were called up to go fight in Bush's war that maybe their parents would pay attention?

Many of them already are.

The rest are so brainwashed that they actually would send their own kids off to die for Halliburton and their "good xtian" pResident.

It took years for the Vietnam war to become as unpopular as the Iraq war is now,
despite the draft being in effect then, and a much more compliant press today.

> Don't you think that there would be a political price for such a call to arms?

They will pay in counterfeit money.

[Kanary]

14. There's one way to see that it's done "correctly"

And that's to be involved with it. Part of the problem is so much apathy, and so much disconnect.

When the draft action first started happening, there were many here who posted that they had filed out the applications to serve on a draft board, *precisely* because they wanted to see to it that it is FAIR.

Just as in any other issue, what is required of us is to take an active part, and strongly voice our desires if a draft is scheduled, and oversee the actual maintainance of it.

If we really want to see this country take a different direction, the days of "too much time on our hands" will have to cease.

Kanary

[ugarte]

26. Kanary, I respect you and your position

but to believe in an equitable draft I would have to believe in a country where the ruling class didn't rule and politicians actually cared about such things as justice for all.

Unfortunately, I happen to live in the United States of America, and even if every single 18-year old were drafted for some kind of duty, there would always be a pecking order. The educated kids would be in the Navy and Air Force, the rich and connected in the National Guard and the poor would still be in the infantry doing all the dying.

I fail to see how that would change U.S. policy.

[Kanary]

28. I appreciate your subject line.. ^_^

What made me think there was a "but" following.... :)

I also agree with you that it would be hell making it equitable. But, as I've posted elsewhere, that's exactly what this is about.... putting us ALL on the line so that we would be forced to fight for equality. As it is, there is still loss of life in this country because of that inequality, but..... it's more invisible, and doesn't touch a lot of us, so..... we blow it off, and think about something else.

For a shift of gears...... lemme suggest another possibility.

What about if we all work our butts off, and get Kucinich's bill for a Department of Peace instituted, and that would be one option for fulfilling your service obligation? Would you consider that?

As we used to say back in my dirtyhippiecommiepinkobum days...

"What if they gave a war,
and nobody came?"

Kanary

[Guaranteed]

16. Look....

All we need is the middle-class kids drafted. The soccer moms' kids, not the uber-wealthy kids. When their kids are drafted and they have to think twice about and actually INVOLVE themselves in war, the needless ones will stop.

[PsN2Wind]

8. I e-mailed McCain

and asked ,WHY, if as Bush says, we are at war and that will require sacrifice of us all. There is no draft, there have been no anti-profiteering laws and there was no surcharge on ALL income to pay-as-we-go for the war. No answer yet but it's only been 5 or 6 months.
I agree that if the war impacted everyone equally there would be a lot more consideration before it was initiated. If a draft is put in place, we need to raise enough Hell to keep it from being a Viet Nam type.

[Kanary]

17. The sacrifice is on the POOR, as always

Not only on the front lines of the bloody war, but also here at "home". That debt is planned to be paid by poor folk, as their safety net is burned, and all current benefits are destroyed.

*That's* where the payment will come due.

And that's why it's not been a big deal in this country. As long as the poor pay the tab, others will just continue to go shopping.

And I can guarantee you, *THOSE* deaths won't be in the news, either.

Kanary

[Guaranteed]

9. No, it's important that you're saying this.

Right on.

[ngGale]

13. This administration has brass balls even...

thinking about a draft. They need more troops and money--I say let Halliburton hire more Mercenaries and the top 2% forgo their tax cuts, combined with the money diverted to Iraq in an illegal way. That should shore them up. Send all our people home because none of us want to fight Bush and Cheney's war of oil for them. They are on their own with this one.

[Codeblue]

15. As an 18 year old

I can say that I dont want to see a draft. If the draft is instituted, I plan on moving to Canada with the rest of my relatives. A draft is pointless, it doesn't make rich kids serve as much as you would like to think. Look at Vietnam. Who was the large majority that got drafted? The poor and African-Americans.

[Kanary]

18. That's because college was a deferment.

What we're saying now is NO deferments.

NO excuses.

EVERYONE goes, no exceptions.

Kanary

[ugarte]

19. 'EVERYONE goes, no exceptions'?

Does that mean you'll be going?

[Kanary]

24. Actually, yes, if I was still in that age bracket.

As I said above (and I hope you're reading *all* posts), I've thought this over long and hard, and yes, put myself into the equation.

That's why I said in another post that I would be filing for a CO status.

I also know it would affect my whole generation very deeply if we were all drafted.

And, since you read my other posts on the subject, you know that I'm also a mother, and have considered this issue in that light, also. I would hope that my son will also file for CO status, but.... as we all know, none of us has control over what our children do. I might be a mother with a son at war. That's very painful for me to even imagine.

On the other hand, it's also very painful for me to know that the military is populated with people who had no other *real* options, and they are now being shot at, killed, killing others, and losing body parts. Why should *ANY* of us get off scott-free when they are not?

Kanary

[bloom]

25. What do think we are getting off "scot-free" with?

Not participating in a war that shouldn't be happening, anyway?

I don't think it's like we wouldn't have a country if it were not for all of military people who are out killing citizens of other countries. It's one thing to have a defensive military and quite another to have what we have going on today.

I don't see that having a draft would give any of us any more power.

The pentagon would have more power. They would have more people to run down their disposal.

People are choosing to go into the service. They might think they have no other "real" options - but I think it's more like the allure of a gambling casino. The only trouble is - they are gambling with their lives.

[Kanary]

27. From your angry tone, I would guess that you're not really reading

the many posts here, talking about this issue in depth.

I hear you're angry. I understand that. Many, many of us are, and for damned sure, I AM!

No, the draft would not "give you more power". (Where did you read me say that????) The whole point is, you already have the power, as do the people in the rest of your generation. But, most are sitting home, watching Survivor, or going to the mall. What happens in Iraq is more like a football game to them. If they were personally involved, it would have a lot more of interest.

As for your dismissing of those who are in the military because they don't have options... your attitude is illustrative of exactly what I'm talking about. Underneath your lack of facts is not only ignorance, but a disdain for those who are serving. To equate them with gamblers is beyond anything I want to tackle. I would suggest that you might want to think this through, because I can guarantee you, if Mari happens to see those words of yours, well, hell hath no fury....

on edit: Your attitude towards those with less options than you is a prime example of why I came to the conclusion that *everyone* needs to serve, and those who refuse to take part in killing would have to serve domestically. If you actually came face-to-face with those who you so calously dismiss, and had to help with the issues facing them, perhaps your heart would thaw a bit.

Kanary

[atre]

30. He's not dismissing them

It doesn't appear to me that he is angry at all. Nor does it appear that he is dismissive of those people who are currently serving. Just because you are opposed to extending military service from voluntary servitude to involuntary servitude does not mean that you dismiss those that decided to take that chance. That is what seems to upset you so greatly, isn't it?

It is plainly obvious to any disinterested observer that it is an indisputable fact that those who join the military take the chance that the occupant of the White House will send them across the globe to fight in wars. This power is vested in the President by the Constitution. Enlisted persons derive many benefits from their decision to join the Armed Forced, including pay, educational opportunities (and many of them would not be academically qualified any other way), housing, and other benefits. You say they have no other opportunities, but that is not true. There is always an option NOT to enlist.

That does not, however, in any way justify or legitimize the mission on which they've been sent. I am very opposed to the military mission on which they've been sent. I would imagine the poster to whom you were responding feels the same way.

[Kanary]

31. Excuse me, you are correct

There are always so many more options..... homelessness and hunger and crime, to name a few. But, oh yes, those options carry with them risks, also.

Again, it's that kind of dismissive attitude that makes some of us think Universal Service would be a good idea.

Almost ALL of us on DU are "very opposed to the military mission on which they've been sent". Maybe you missed that part.

That doesn't mean that some of us have been thinking for years about the beneficial aspects of Universal Service.

Possibly if you read all the posts here, and on the other draft thread (the one with over 70 posts), it would start to make some sense to you.

Kanary

[atre]

29. Let's eliminate all the age brackets, too, then

I've always thought it insanely ridiculous that one generation thinks itself noble when all it does is sacrifice persons in other generations.

A draft is a terrible idea. With enough troops, Bush will only expand the war. He doesn't care about the casualties, and the people will be manipulated into thinking the troops are doing something other than lining the pockets of Halliburton.

[TahitiNut]

20. Universal National Service ... no draft.

I was a Vietnam pre-lottery draftee. The anger I felt wasn't about "serving my country" (or nonsense bullshit about 'involuntary servitude') but was about being a scapegoat -- being one out of every twelve guys (no women, of course) that got 'selected'.

Everydamnedbody should put in some service, if only to disabuse folks of the insidious notion that democracy can be bought.

Yes, "bought." For far too many people, their only substantive participation in "government" is limited to paying taxes ... and the rest consumes less of their time and interest than the latest TV shows. We either have to put up or we'll be forced to shut up. Unless it's about participation, there's no such thing as a democracy.

[bloom]

23. I don't see how forced servitude or the draft, either one

would give anyone any more of a voice.

[neverforget]

32. As compared to now, we have no voice.

[Elwood P Dowd]

21. I was drafted during Vietnam

and spent two years in the Army. I was lucky and shipped off to Washington, D.C. In my two years, I never met a son or daughter of
a rich person. Every friend of mine from high school and college that
came from a wealthy family was either in the National Guard or suddenly
developed some catastrophic health problem that excused them from service. However, those with health problems continued to play golf and tennis (strange how that happens).

Today, the most enthusiastic supporters of George Bush and the War In Iraq are those same children of rich people who avoided the draft during Vietnam. These same cowards and spoiled brats call me anti-American and a Bush-hater for not supporting the war. When I ask them about their service to our country and how their children will serve during the great Bush War, they turn and walk away.