Conservatives Try to Exploit Catholic Democrats' Views

[DaveSZ]

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/20/politics/20TALK.html


Conservatives Try to Exploit Catholic Democrats' Views
By ROBIN TONER

Published: April 20, 2004


WASHINGTON, April 19 — Members of Congress are used to being judged and graded by every organization from the Chamber of Commerce to the League of Conservation Voters.

But some Democratic politicians say it is quite another matter to have their standing as Roman Catholics called into question because of their votes in support of abortion rights. Some conservatives are urging church leaders to do just that, most prominently in the case of Senator John Kerry, the presumed Democratic presidential nominee, a self-described "believing and practicing Catholic" who attends Mass, receives communion and has a 100 percent voting record with Naral Pro-Choice America.


Conservatives argue that such politicians cannot have it both ways, presenting themselves as faithful Catholics while voting against the church's clear teachings on abortion. Deal W. Hudson, the publisher of the Catholic magazine Crisis, said, "It's heating up because lay groups and leaders, plus some bishops, are saying, `We've had enough.' "

In recent weeks, conservatives have been calling on the bishops to penalize Mr. Kerry, even deny him communion, a prospect that fellow Catholic political figures who support abortion rights describe as deeply troubling.

-more-

[sandnsea]

1. They better be careful

Most Catholics really aren't as anti-abortion as the Church requires. They could end up losing over half the Church over this. That's what I think.

[DaveSZ]

2. Is it true that most Catholics are still Democrats?

Or is that era now long gone?

[DaveSZ]

3. I can speak for myself personally -

I was raised Catholic, and still believe in social justice, equality, peace, and all those other things I feel that liberals also stand for.

The abortion issue does complicate the debate, but it’s my view that I shouldn’t be able to dictate such a personal decision for another human being.

On the other hand you have people like Scalia and Santorum -disgusting bigots who masquerade as Catholics.

[Seldona]

4. Maybe we should mention

the 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' commandment.

[sandnsea]

16. Less than 25% are 100% against abortion

I have seen statistics on that. So I don't think the Church has the people behind them on this quite like they think they do. And I know alot of Catholics are getting very tired of this right wing takeover.

[LeahMira]

12. You would think so, but...

Most Catholics really aren't as anti-abortion as the Church requires. They could end up losing over half the Church over this.

... if they haven't lost them over the child-molesting priests, what will it take?

Really, unless a women admits to using contraception or to having an abortion, who is going to know among the clergy? She can continue to be a Catholic if she wants to, as long as she keeps quiet about her personal life choices. Officially, she may be "living in sin" but who needs to know that?

I'd guess the same could go for people who are homosexual. As long as they don't admit that they are involved in an intimate relationship, and as long as they don't publicly advocate for gay marriage, who's going to know?

I think that a lot of people find things they like in the Catholic Church and aren't going to leave on account of one issue when they find so much else that is significant to them for one reason or another. As long as they don't oppose the Church in public, they can pretty much have their cake and eat it too.

[ablbodyed]

5. What RC's REALLY need to focus on is....

that the deepest and most abiding hatred (of the very many hatreds) of conservative protestants is for Roman Catholics and the Catholic Church. Do they think that they will be exempt because there are so many RC's? They had better THINK AGAIN.

[LeahMira]

11. What's the rationale?

I heard a presentation just the other day about the Catholic position.

Besides the alleged "murder" aspect, apparently Catholics feel that a woman should give her life to bring a child into the world if that's how things are. The way I heard it is that Catholics believe that everyone is born with original sin, which prevents their soul from getting into heaven unless they are baptized. Since the woman has already been baptized, her soul can get into heaven. But the infant must be born in order to be baptized and have its soul get into heaven. Therefore, the woman is obligated to give up her life so her infant can be baptized and the infant's soul can get to heaven.

I've always wondered why, in this balancing act of who gets to live and whose life is of more value, the woman always loses according to Catholic belief. It seems that Catholics don't focus on who has a right to live, but on how to get the souls of all parties involved into heaven. This sort of explains it, but it sounds pretty bizarre to me, so please comment if you are Catholic.

[sandnsea]

17. I never heard that

If somebody is teaching that, it's just spin as far as I'm concerned. The Church has always taught both lives are equal. I believe they've started baptizing fetuses though. If you can't baptize a life until it's born, it really isn't life now is it?

[cap]

6. what planet are these people on?????

this is from the HIERARCHY... not the pews.

A few statistics please!!!

96% of Catholics who have ever had sex have used contraception (not including the rhythm method).

A very high proportion -- 80% of child bearing aged women use contraception (can't remember the figure but I believe it is this number)

66% support abortion

58% support federal funding of abortions

The days of the 10 kid Catholic family are over. There are a few families with 4-5 kids at church these days. Most families are 2-3 kids. They ain't using the rhythm method -- and yes, they do have abortions.

Our Catholic politicians reflect the views of the faithful. We aint doin' the drill. During the rhythm method portion of my pre-Cana class, we all sat around with glum looks on our face as some nut case told how she denied her husband sex for a year until he came around to the rhythm method. She has a medical condition that would kill her if she got pregnant. Nutcase!

By the way, how much of this abortion crap propagated by the hierarchy are Catholic politicians supposed to discuss in public anyhow. There is a move to beatify (make a saint), Blessed Gianna, a woman who died of septic poisoning during pregnancy rather than have an abortion. Let's have a public discussion of Gianna being a model for women!!!! Most Americans -- Catholic and nonCatholic -- will look at you like you are crazy!

BTW, let's also discuss criminal penalties for women who "murder" their children. Not just doctor penalties for providing abortion... but penalties for women.

I just hate having people put words in my mouth. These people want to split the Catholic vote. God, the hierarchy can be incredibly stupid! Thank God, Catholicism is not centered around the hierarchy... I think it is the ritual that saves them. If this continues, I will go hear mass in a foreign tongue just so I don't have to listen to the sermons.

[cap]

8. I think we need to bring up sexual habits of pro-life candidates as well

If they are going to put the government in our bedroom, let's put a media spotlight in theirs.

For instance, pro-lifers should be asked whether they stayed abstinent until marriage and to produce the girlfriends who can swear that they only held hands. If they didn't make it until marriage, did they use the rhythm method? We've all had times when we've looked at each other and said, "ooops! I don't think the contraception quite worked this time." At this point, what was the conversation about what comes next? Did you promise to marry the woman, or put the kid up for adoption or did you talk about abortion? Produce the girlfriends.

What did you and your wife do during marriage?

Right now, most of these guys are over 40 and their wives are past child bearing now. So this is a moot issue for you in your present circumstances. I am tired of these johnny-come-lately to morality folks who've had their fun and now they are too old and tired to have more. Or worse, old letches who preach one thing and do something else in their personal lives.

I think this would be a hilarious conversation. We are talking politicians and sex. Sexual shenanigans and politicians do tend to go hand in hand!!! I wonder if it should be classed as an occupational hazard. You're going to convince me that you pro-lifers had and maintain a pure life! Right.

Bring it on!

[LDS Jock]

7. I found this

which tells more about how Catholics are planning to vote.

http://cara.georgetown.edu/Press%2041204.pdf

[LeahMira]

10. Another Nation-wide Survey

*The numbers are of just those who self-identified as Catholic. This is simply how they stand on abortion, not how they will vote, though.

Highly Committed Catholics
Pro-Choice - 343 (25.9%)
Moderate - 158 (11.9%)
Pro-Life - 822 (62.2%)
Total Sample - 1323 (100%)


Low Commitment Catholics
Pro-Choice - 708 (49.8%)
Moderate - 265 (18.6%)
Pro-Life - 448 (31.5%)
Total Sample - 1421 (100%)

[Lavender Brown]

9. I don't know about most Catholics

but in my family, even my very religious mother votes Democratic, and is unlikely to be swayed by the conservatives playing the "Kerry's a fake Catholic" card. Why should they make judgements when their record on war, etc. don't live up to their supposed ideals?

[Michael Costello]

13. What about the death penalty?

The Roman Catholic church condemns abortion and the death penalty. How come conservative Roman Catholic politicians who support the death penalty never have that thrown at them? It's just another double standard...

[theboss]

14. The Republicans are overplaying their hand

Not that this is unusual.

I am sure most bishops and priests are not going to take too kindly to be told how to run their church....by Tom "Freaking" Delay.

As for the abortion issue, it is what it is. If you are Catholic and see abortion as the main issue, you probably already vote Republican. If the issue does not dominate your worldview, you aren't going to think Kerry is any less a Catholic.

This isn't the 1950s. Catholics no longer take directives from their priests in the way they used to.

[OHdem10]

15. Father Andrew Greely asks

in response to the flap over denyjing Kerry Holy Communion--Shall we also deny all those gungho war supporters communion.

The Pope and American Bishops strongly issued statements indicating the Church" position--"This is an unjust war.

The Church position is anti-death penalty--should we deny all this death penalty advocates Communion.

Have the Conservative Cathoics revived the old Jansenism?? the only sins that matter revolve around sex(Abortion). Jansenism
was proven wrong once.

So far the Bishops are keeping a a low profile which is very wise.Too
many sippery slopes here.