???? 'Muslims take over Mich town' ?????? - Mich DUers???????

[bobbieinok]

Savage was on a tirade last nite about this; local Tulsa RW talk-show host this morning ranting about this.

What's happened?? They report city council now permits call to prayer on loudspeaker 5 times a day and renaming of a street.

Anyone from Mich know anything about this??

[Az]

1. Yep

It seems a call was put out to allow Mosques in Hamtramk to do a call to prayer 5 times a day. The argument was made that it is freedom of religion. Further it was pointed out that Christian Churchs would ring their bells for the same purpose. They could not effectively deny the Muslems without silencing the Christians as well.

[Brotherjohn]

2. I don't know about his take. I know some towns around Detroit/Dearborn...

... are majority Muslim.

It sounds like the city has merely ruled to allow private citizens to broadcast the Muslim 5X/day call to prayers over a loudspeaker, not that Muslims have "taken over the city".

Sounds like Freedom of religion to me.

[freetobegay]

3. Lets remember who was on this triade.

eom

[Az]

4. As always

When someone else is granted rights the right decries that as them taking over or getting special rights.

[displacedtexan]

5. Sounds like many Christians don't know why their bells ring.

Not surprising. I have an undergrad minor in religion, and I've found that very few Christians know much about their own religion, much less anyone else's.
Shirley Jackson's "The Lottery" exposes this phenomenon quite effectively.

[AZCat]

7. Why do Christian church bells ring?

I'm curious- I thought they were a call to prayer.

Note: I'm not a Christian, so please explain for a layperson. Thanks! :)

[Az]

8. You got it right

It is a call/reminder of the faith. It is the reason the Muslems were able to justify their request for their call to prayer. They couldn't silence the Muslems without silencing the Christians.

[AZCat]

10. Thanks n/t

[walmartsucks]

48. To tell you the time

Have you ever notice that at 10:00 the bell rings 10 times, 9:00 nine times, 8:00 eight times, etc?

[truthspeaker]

6. muslims getting same rights as christians = persecution of christians

In some people's minds.

[Gin]

9. ok...here is my take on it...I have no problem with chruch bells.."once a

week"...but I would have a problem with a loud speaker "5 times a day..7 days a week!" ...I personally would find it intrusive.

I am not anti Muslim or anti organized religion..just expressing my view on the subject.

[NWHarkness]

12. You must have never been to Hamtramck

Those big Catholic churches there ring their bells on the hour, all day, every day.

[Az]

13. A valid concern. but

here is the reason for Church State seperation. What if they are right? The reason we cannot impose our values on another religions is because we are dealing with belief about the nature of the universe around us. If I had my way we would do away with all dogmatic authoratative religions. I am pretty sure most would not go for this idea. They seem pretty convinced they are right. Meanwhile this group thinks that group is wrong. While that group is really certain all the other groups are smoking something funny.

There are 1000s of beliefs in the world. Some of them are wrong. Some may be right. Until we have a means of sorting out which is which we can't really impose one set of beliefs on another.

There is an excpetion of course. And this comes from the notion that they cannot cause harm to another in the pursuit of their beliefs. However as Christians get to ring their bells (and it is sometimes more than just once a week) there is no reasonable means to deny the Muslems their call to prayer.

[sybylla]

15. Church bells ring in my town several times a day

The Catholics compete with the Lutherans and each rings several times through out the day.

I'm sure one of the christian churches in this town will graciously decided to ring their churchbells at the same time the Muslims call to prayer so that no one will have to listen to it.

[Bridget Burke]

16. Church bells often ring more than once a week.

Roman Catholics say mass every day--sometimes more than once a day. Other times of prayer ("the Offices") were traditionally announced by bells--5 times a day, in fact. Have you heard of "ringing changes"? Still practiced by the Anglicans. And the Orthodox churches have an impressive history of bell-ringing.

And what of the church bell that ring the hour? And the half hour? And the quarter hour? This is a modern adaptation--far less Popish, more suitable for the business-oriented culture. Must set the clock, stay on schedule, etc.

Listen and you might be surprised.

[phoebe]

28. I suspect some sort of truce will be reached by the two!

This town should be very proud of its actions - it is paving the way to a greater understanding between the two religions.

[Az]

29. Well

The officials of the town should be proud, whilst they keep their jobs. The citizens of the town have demonstrated other aspects of hunanity. Its going to be interesting to watch the fall out from this.

[bowens43]

37. There was a compromise.

They agreed not drop the earliest and latest call to prayer.

[bowens43]

36. Bells once a week?

In my home town it's not once a week, it's at least three or four times a day!


The First Amendment can be such an inconvenience!

[HamdenRice]

25. I know how it feels

I used to live in a neighborhood in Brooklyn that had a mosque nearby. At about 5 AM every morning, I would hear the call to prayer. It was about six blocks away, but the call is very loud, because it is made over a loudspeaker. For most of the years I lived there, I thought it was quite beautiful and musical, and it made me feel like our neighborhood was very diverse.

Then 9/11 happened. I was working in lower Manhattan that morning and saw everything.

After that, I hated the call to prayer. What made it even worse was that when the Clinton Justice Dept. had investigated and foiled some of the earlier radical Islamic criminal conspiracies in NY (first WTC bombing, plan to blow up bridges, murder of Kahane), it was alleged that conspirators and the so called blind sheik had attended or visited that Mosque, or tried to recruit there -- I forget exactly the connection.

I know this is wrong, but after 9/11 I felt that for them to blast the call to prayers to a traumatized neighborhood, when they had at least tangentially been involved in terrorism, was really over the top, and at least insensitive.

I don't live there any more, but I have to admit I have very mixed feelings about this issue. No answer, no definitive opinion, just very mixed feelings.

BTW, the church bells don't just call people to prayer. One of their original purposes in Europe was so people could tell time. Clocks and watches were too expensive for the vast majority of people. The Church bell would ring so people could tell time. That's why the ring is different for each hour. So there is a secular reason for church bells, as well as a religious one.

[Bridget Burke]

33. People have watches now.

There are many public digital clocks. TV, radio & the internet are constant sources of exact time. That secondary purpose for chuch bells is obsolete.

If all the churches go silent all the time, the call to prayer can be muffled.

If not, you're better off living in an ethnically pure neighborhood.

[Zookeeper]

35. Welcome to DU, HamdenRice!

Thanks for sharing your honest opinion with us. Since you were actually in Manhattan, watching the horror of 9/11, I wouldn't presume to say how you "should" feel on this topic.

[truthspeaker]

38. well church bells could be offensive to Jews since churches

are tangentially related to the Holocaust.

I appreciate you sharing your feelings honestly, though.

[ck4829]

11. This is an outrageous double standard

I know there is no massive Christian Conspiracy to take over the world. But there are plenty of supporters of an Intolerant Christian Theocracy who are working together to see this happen.
Among their less reactionary wants are:
1. Posting the 10 commandments everywhere
2. They want the words 'Under God' to remain in the pledge
3. They want prayer in schools
Does anyone know anything about RJ Rushdoony?
If you don't, Rushdoony was the leader of the Christian Right who demanded anyone who lived a non-Christian lifestyle in any way be EXECUTED. That was right here in America too.
And then Muslims get to be able to be called to prayer... And they say the Muslims are taking over. We should see what the Christian Right has to say and post it on DU just for humor.

[noonwitch]

14. This has been a really hot issue in metro Detroit for the past week

The people against the loudspeaker come across as very prejudiced against muslims. One even said that "every time I hear the call, I'm reminded of 9-11". The most common sentiment was "They're imposing their religon on us".
Hamtrammk is a small "suburb" of Detroit, that is actually surrounded by the city. It is a traditionally polish-catholic neighborhood, and it's skyline is dominated by a huge, beautiful church, St. Florian's. In recent years, it's been a settling place for immigrants-ukranians, people from the Balkans, indians and middle easterners. Also, young people like to live there because the houses are kind of cool and not very expensive. The schools are terrible and the state runs the finances because of past problems. A few years ago, there were terrible problems with garbage pickup that led to an unbelieveable rat infestation, that has allegedly been resolved.

My take on the whole issue is noise level. The loudspeaker should not be too loud. If it isn't, I'd have no problem with it in my neighborhood. It can't be any worse than the booming of some of the car stereos that I hear daily.

[bobbieinok]

17. once in Switzerland I about went nuts from church bells every hour

[Az]

18. Well if you are going to go nuts

Switzerland is one of the more interesting places to do it.

[bobbieinok]

19. totally agree - you been there?? visit Murten or Thun??

[Az]

20. No, never been

The extent of my travels off this continent took me to Japan. Another interesting place to go nuts.

[TahitiNut]

34. Yes! Thun is beautiful! I swam at their public beach.

(The water was glacier cold, of course.) What a wonderful little city. And Interlaken is awesome.

[Ilsa]

21. This was on CNN yesterday, also. It was hysterical!

Some RW looney lawyer was telling the viewers that since 9-11 we need to cut back on our freedoms (but he never said the church bells had to stop ringing) and then he insulted Islam for violence, and that it was offensive to all Americans, blah, blah. He was so bad, I thought maybe he was being sarcastic to make a point.

I think this debate is great to have right now. Several weeks ago Faux News was trying to convince Christians that they are being persecuted, but the fact is, that they need to understand that if they keep pushing religious expression out there, then they are also pushing for freedom of religious expression for religions they don't like.

[Az]

22. There always seems to be this moment

When the Conservative Christians push for new laws giving them more access to our children or our tax dollars, they suddenly realise that this means other religions can get access too. During the initial push for tax funded religious charity programs there was a sudden gasp when they realised that the Scientologists and Satanists were getting ready to ask for money. They started pushing to limit the funding to just mainstream religions.

There was a local incident where a group had forced a school to allow an after hours bible study on site. Well a group of atheist kids decided to start their own bible study group and suddenly bible study was a bad idea on school property. They couldn't get a teacher to monitor the session until one of the science teachers volunteered to monitor the class using a PA system so they would not actually have to be in the class room with them.

[rman]

23. next: head scarf ban?

because it is "a sign of agression". horay for France, for leading the way.

[Az]

24. Already happened

Wiccans are frequently singled out for wearing their pentagrams in schools. They are made to remove them or face expulsion. Meanwhile Christian children are allowed to wear their crosses as they choose.

[Ilsa]

26. What is the reason given for requiring removal of their pentagrams? n/t

[Az]

27. Gangs and satanic related insignia

Even after it was explained that the Wiccan symbol and a Satanic symbol were different.

[Solon]

31. You know what I don't get.

Even after it is explained to the school that the religion is legally recognized and that it is unconstitutional to forbid its symbol. They will still forbid it until a court orders them otherwise. Why the hell waste the money for the school, it isn't worth it. I remember one time a public school in, I think, Louisiana, banned the Star of David as a "Gang Symbol" how stupid are these people? BTW: The school lost that case too.

[MoonRiver]

30. LOL! If true, Savage must be shitting bricks!

Good for the Muslims! Christians ring church bells whenever we feel like it, but somehow feel affronted when a predominantly Muslim community does its equivalent of same?? Sorry, that attitude does NOT represent freedom of religion in a democracy. I guess the real question is whether we're still a democracy, or a Christian theocracy.

[Az]

32. The Mix

Hamtramk is the heart of our Pole Town ie Polish dominated. Its heavily Catholic and likely the center of the paczki craze just before Lent. It does have a signficant Muslem population though.

[JNelson6563]

46. The Pope even went there

back in the 80's.

Hamtramck, the city within a city, always interesting.

Julei

[Az]

47. Yep (interesting story follows)

And thats when I copped a squat in his throne. I was working (volunteer really) at Ford Auditorium when the Pope came to town. He visited Hamtramk but he held some major meetings in Downtown Detroit. He held his meeting with the Bishops at our auditorium. As this was just after the assination attempt security was high. They shut down all of the center of Detroit for his visit. Only essential personal were allowed in.

City ordinance states that whenever a city building is used at least 7 employees must be present. I got on the short list and had to get put through a CIA security check. To my ever lasting shame I passed this check.

Because the Downtown was shutdown the day of the event we had to camp out in Detroit over night. So we hung out at the auditorium for the night. And there on the stage was the Popes throne. So I sat in it. Passed a few eddicts (which they still have not enacted). And revelled in my illusory power.

Later on when the CIA showed up to check the facility for bombs and such, they asked for someone that knew the building. The boss picked me out. So I took them around the place showing them the interesting places to put bombs. Oddly enough they never checked the Throne. The throne this little backpack lugging activist atheist had been sitting in all night. Needless to say the Pope did not go boom.

I am still waiting for those eddicts to be acted on.

[Bozita]

39. First "Call to Prayer" occurs at daybreak -- big problem in summer...

...due to daylight savings time. Call goes out at somewhere about 4:30am.

If it's loud and if you live too close, ...

[Zookeeper]

42. I would be equally irritated by anything...

that regularly interrupted my sleep at 4:30 in the morning!!!! I believe Muslims have alarm clocks, too. Is it really more acceptable to have Muslims waking up a whole neighborhood than Christians, just because they're a minority? Obviously, a fair compromise needs to be found by all parties. And don't forget us heathens who would rather not be bothered by ANY public displays of religiousity!

[cap]

40. in dc the big mosque has been doing the call to prayer

for the longest of times and nobody has minded. You can hear it from afar on Massachussetts Ave -- A main thoroughfare.

[bobbieinok]

41. and the RW talk-shows haven't heard yet?? - all that wasted 'rant time'

[Selwynn]

43. What the hell is the problem with this? No different than xians!

[KansDem]

44. Could be a matter of aesthetics...

I like the sound of ringing bells as long as they're acoustical. Don't care much for the sound of electronically-fabricated bells that came out of loudspeakers in some church steeples...

Muslim call-to-prayers broadcasted over a loud speaker would tend to grate on my nerves just like the faux church bells. Perhaps if the call was live(?) From what I've experienced, the chant of the call-to-prayer is very lyrical and musical.

Comparing acoustical Christian bells to Muslim mechanical loudspeakers is not a fair comparison.

I don't like Muzak either, but that's a different thread...

[Az]

45. I think both are melodic

Actually I find some of the songs the bells play to be a bit bothersome as the tunes carry their own form of message aside from the tones themself.