Homophobia and the Nazi Party: from the Holocaust Memorial Museum

[Plaid Adder]

I just found this page while doing research on the 1930s and fascism:

"Persecution of Homosexuals in the Third Reich":

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005261

I knew that the Nazis organized the persecution, arrest, and internment of homosexuals in the 1930s but I hadn't realized that they were playing the pink card, as it were, even before they came to power:

"While male homosexuality remained illegal in Weimar Germany under Paragraph 175 of the criminal code, German homosexual-rights activists became worldwide leaders in efforts to reform societal attitudes that condemned homosexuality. Many in Germany regarded the Weimar Republic's toleration of homosexuals as a sign of Germany's decadence. The Nazis posed as moral crusaders who wanted to stamp out the 'vice' of homosexuality from Germany in order to help win the racial struggle. Once they took power in 1933, the Nazis intensified persecution of German male homosexuals. Persecution ranged from the dissolution of homosexual organizations to internment in concentration camps."

Whee.

I should say that I have never been convinced by the Bush/Hitler comparisons; the organized slaughter of 6,000,000 of his own citizens is something that puts Hitler in a very different league from Bush, and should not be trivialized. Plus, as the punch line goes, Hitler was democratically elected. However, it is interesting to see how far back the use of homosexuality as a 'wedge issue' really goes.

:scared:

The Plaid Adder

[La Lioness Priyanka]

1. thats where we get the pink triangle from

[Vladimir]

7. I was wondering about that

you learn something new every day...

[sniffa]

9. i Learned that from meL brooks

in "to be or not to be".

great and totaLLy underated movie.

[proud patriot]

18. Wow I did not know that's where the pink Triangle came from

Thanks , I love learning new things :loveya:

[bleedingheart]

2. You can never underestimate the evil in some people

and how they may use issues to their advantage.

[keithyboy]

3. The dirty little secret is that many in Nazi uniform were closet gays.

Some have even speculated that Hitler, himself was dealing with fears about his own sexuality. There is nothing on earth worse than or more dangerous than a person with low self-esteem and the lack of critical thinking abilities.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

11. i dont really believe that

its like blaming women for sexism...yes some women are sexist and enforce sexism...but its basically a man made institution

[truthspeaker]

4. But the American right wing's hatred of gays comes from the Bible

so it's COMPLETELY different. </sarcasm>

[RoundRockD]

5. HBO had a documentary on this subject last night.

I missed most of it so I'll have to catch it when it comes on again. The name of the program was, Paragragh 175.

[BigDaddyLove]

23. That film is also available in most video stores...........

(even Blockbuster), so if someone would like to see it and doesn't get HBO, it's easy to do.

Really good documentary, I recommend it highly.

[tom_paine]

6. Yep, Plaid, other than the 6 11 million camp victims

there are MANY similarities between the Busheviks and the Nazis, particularly in the use and methodology of their propaganda.

(we cannot forget the 5,000,000 Poles, Gypsies, homosexuals and other who were also killed in addition to 6,000,000 Jews)

Unfortunately, the old saw that "Hitler was democratically elected" is also incorrect.

If you read a history of Nazi Germany you will find that Hitler gained power in similar undemocratic "backroom maneuvering" ways as Bushler*.

More similarities...

[Cleita]

8. According to William L. Shirer in his book

"The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich", it was homosexuals who made up the majority of the elite of the nascent Nazi party in the decade of the twenties. When they had served their purpose, Hitler turned on the homosexual element, having some assassinated and others set up on charges and imprisoned, because he started to see them as a liability to his ambitions.

[bobbieinok]

10. Ernst Roehm , leader of the SA, was a homosexual as were

many others in the SA.

This was apparently know to all in the party. When Hitler was firmly in power and Roehm wanted the SA (the Nazi street fighters) to be rewarded for helping put the Nazis into power by replacing the military with the SA, Hitler acted.

During the 'Night of the Long Knives' in 34, Roehm and his group were picked up and executed. Other potential threats to Hitler's total control of the party and the govt were also eliminated.

Hitler talked about Roehm's homosexuality as if it were totally new to him. It was, however, an 'acceptable' excuse to eliminate his challenge to Hitler's domination.

Also note: there's some controversy over whether Hitler was actually elected. The Nazi party lost votes in the last national election before Schleicher got rid of von Papen and persuaded Hindenberg to appoint Hitler chancellor.

[No2W2004]

12. Hitler's #2 was a homosexual,

EDIT: I took so long typing this, 2 others beat me too it. Sorry for repeating.
Ernst Rohm, leader of the SA made no secret of it. Hitler himself was quoted as saying he didn't care how people chose to live their lives. Of course, that DIDN'T go for persons outside the party or outside Hitler's circle of running buddies. Then, when Rohm was getting a little TOO popular, Hitler had him and everyone else who could possibly challenge him killed in what is called "the night of the long knives."

As far as Shrub, here's a good comparison.

When Hitler was consolidating his power base, the republic was foundering. The political leaders of the established parties thought that they could use Hitler (and his popularity) to bolster the government. They underestimated him. They were sure they could control him, use him just as long as they needed, and then cast him aside. The republicans did the same with the neocons. They wanted power so bad, they "made a deal with the devil" in order to achieve it. But now, just like those unfortunate German politicians, the true republicans find themselves outside of their party looking in.

[troublemaker]

13. Comments

re: "I should say that I have never been convinced by the Bush/Hitler comparisons; the organized slaughter of 6,000,000 of his own citizens is something that puts Hitler in a very different league from Bush, and should not be trivialized."

Thought Experiment:

It's widely accepted today that it's inappropriate to compare anyone to Hitler because Hitler killed 6 million people. How should we have described Hitler himself in 1933? He hadn't killed much of anyone yet, so we cannot even say that Hitler was like Hitler!

The Nuremberg Laws (1935) preceded the final solution by seven years. What aspect of the Holocaust couldn't be readily deduced from the Nuremberg laws? The intention was clear enough.

Bush isn't much like Hitler (not dynamic, for starters) but Rove is a perfect dumbed-down version of Goebbels and the Republican party is becoming more like the Nazi party every day. I don't say that as a slur, but as historical fact. The Nazis are the best social/political analog for today's 'conservatives,' and when we strive to avoid the comparison we are willfully hobbling our ability to understand our own times.

Historical Note: (Not a criticism!) You mention that Hitler killed 6 million of his own people. Actually very few (relatively) German Jews were killed because they had over a decade to leave. The great majority of Holocaust victims were Poles. (Poland was home to most European Jews due to a history of comparative tolerance going back to the middle ages.)

[Frangible]

22. one key difference between Bush and Hitler

is charisma.

Ever see Bush speak, or answer questions? It's painful. He can't talk very well at all, and he's dumb as a rock. Hitler made millions chant his name.

[caduceus]

14. Homosexuals in the concentration camps never liberated...

Most people don’t know that when the Allies liberated the concentration camps at the closing days of WWII, everyone was freed EXCEPT the homosexuals. To the Allies, they were considered criminals, so they were taken from the concentration camps to prison. When their fellow Jewish camp inmates saw this atrocity occurring, (i.e., the rounding up of the homosexuals labeled with the pink triangle) they ripped off their yellow Star of David and tried to replace the pink triangle on their fellow inmates’ garments.

[theHandpuppet]

17. Damn...

I didn't know that.

I wonder if anyone has ever made a filmed documentary of gay survivors of the camps?

[No2W2004]

28. I just saw a documentary on HBO on4/20 called

The Hidden Fuhrer: Debating the Enigma of Hitler's Sexuality, and there were gay survivors. One talked of being sent back to prison after being "liberated". The German govt. didn't even acknowledge them until pretty reciently. I remember him saying that the homosexuals in the nazi party weren't the "yoo-hoo" (his words) types as they weren't tolerated.

[2Design]

15. similarities between now and then

Hilter was democractically elected by those who were against progressive ideas. They hated liberals, homosexuals, etc.

The similarities are the build up by hatred toward groups. Hilter didn't come into office and immediately kill the Jews. The hatred had been building toward groups considered part of the other problems in their society as it slid into disaster and poverty.

someone had to be blamed. So they continued to look for that someone in those who were not christian right or catholic. Lots of similarities here.

It started with invading peoples home and beating them up. Or people taken away in the night. We have had all that done in this country and it escalated with the patriot act. We have people locked up for years who have never had access to a lawyer both in the continental usa and in guantanamo.

This is how it started. Little by little eradicating the rights of some by the the majority who felt morally superior.

book on the Coming of the Third Reich by Richard J. Evans .....There is lot of good information on the build up of a society based on hatred, bigotry, poverty, fear, etc.

[theHandpuppet]

20. And the same persecution of what was called ...

... "decadent art". Many of the country's greatest artists, such as the German Expressionists, fled Nazi persecution as the Reich purged museums and galleries of "decadent art" as immoral. Herr Asscroft would have been proud.

Now that Gen Powell's spawn has been appointed his cushy job as the head of the FCC he's busying himself by threatening the media for airing "immoral" material and silencing people like Howard Stern. I personally find Stern highly offensive, but not nearly as offensive as censoring him.

This is only the beginning, folks.

In Germany they first came for the Communists
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Catholics
and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up

-- Reverend Martin Niemöller, a pastor in the German Confessing Church who spent seven years in a concentration camp.

[freetobegay]

16. Fuck Hitler

And Fuck Bush! Any questions?

[Walt Starr]

19. The problem with the Bush/Hitler comparisons is hindsight

Take out everything past about 1934 and the comparisons are startling.

[Frangible]

21. Well, we all know the Nazis were pure evil....

"While male homosexuality remained illegal in Weimar Germany under Paragraph 175 of the criminal code, German homosexual-rights activists became worldwide leaders in efforts to reform societal attitudes that condemned homosexuality. Many in Germany regarded the Weimar Republic's toleration of homosexuals as a sign of Germany's decadence. The Nazis posed as moral crusaders who wanted to stamp out the 'vice' of homosexuality from Germany in order to help win the racial struggle. Once they took power in 1933, the Nazis intensified persecution of German male homosexuals. Persecution ranged from the dissolution of homosexual organizations to internment in concentration camps."


Proof even the Nazis liked their lesbian porn?

Plus, as the punch line goes, Hitler was democratically elected

No, he wasn't. He actually failed to win the popular vote, then using underhanded tactics seized power anyway. (hmm, sound familiar?)

[Malikshah]

24. See Bent

It deals with this--the play's quite famous.

The movie adaptation, less so.

Richard Gere and Ian McKellen have both been associated with this harrowing work.

[Az]

25. Well thats the problem isn't it

How did pure evil convince enough people to do such horrible things. Keep in mind they didn't fly banners proclaiming they supported evil. In fact what they did was in the name of good. It really just takes being able to redefine good in some way that brings about some really nasty behaviour.

Look through history. Whenever you see atrocities you will see the actions of people doing what they thought was good. The cultural revolution in China. The slaughter of Muslems during the crusades. The burning of witches. All were actions thought to be righteous and good. All the results of people claiming to have a definitive definition of morality from a source they defined.

[Frangible]

26. it's a loose term

And entirely relative. Most soldiers of the wehrmacht did their duty out of patriotism and service to their country, and weren't overtly political. Most of Germany didn't even know about the holocaust until after the war.

But the Nazi party itself-- its goals, its methods, etc... that is evil, for it as an organization was seeking to end human life en masse and conquer the world.

[Iceburg]

27. The only difference between b*sh and Hitler is that ...

Hitler believed in Darwinism.