To all DU'ers outside the United States,

[No2W2004]

Please give us your opinions of America. Do you equate the current administration with the way most Americans think? Do you think our Government was "stolen out from under the citizens" or do you think the "Americans got what they deserved for being so damned apathetic"?
What would be the attitude in your country if Americans started leaving America "en mass" out of fear of Shrub and what he has planned?

Thanks for your thoughts

[Minstrel Boy]

1. I don't equate the administration with Americans, but

I think many Americans, even those nominally opposed to Bush, act as its enablers, by conceding it a legitimacy it doesn't merit.

I feel a great sympathy for Americans who are aware to what's happening. I can only imagine how sick I'd feel if it were my country, and these crimes were being perpetrated in my name.

If Bush is either legitimately elected in November or re-selected without a fight, I'm afraid my general impression of Americans will take a southward turn. But American ex-pats of conscience will always be welcomed by me.

[truthspeaker]

2. good, cause I'll need a place to stay if Bush wins

What country are you in? Have a spare bedroom?

[Minstrel Boy]

3. Canada. As for a spare bedroom,

We'll need a new house first. But if Bush wins I don't think anywhere in the world will be safe.

[No2W2004]

4. (kick for time zones)

:kick:

[No2W2004]

8. Kick again

for time zones

[ConcernedCanuk]

5. Well, I lived in "America" for over a year in 79 - 80, so here goes -

.
.
.

and very sad to say

my "opinion" has changed.

I used to love the United States. I have traveled up and down both coasts, spent a year in San Diego, but now I couldn't be paid enough to cross that border.

First, the obvious.

If enough Americans disagreed with what the Administration is doing, then they wouldn't be doing it!

So yeah, they got what they deserved, sorta, by accepting the "selection".

Half the nation Whining about it doesn't do much for me unless they DO something about it.

- where is the anger, the outrage that it took almost ten years of Vietnam to bring about?

Anyone that would leave the US out of despair for their government would put them up a notch or two in my eyes.

I lost almost all of my American "web-friends" when this war started, because even people that disagreed with this war "didn't want to talk about it" - I'm sure this is not an unfamiliar attitude to most.

Heck, even one "webby friend" who had her son over there, "just didn't want to think about it"

Well, if one's government takes a position where they are going to kill innocent people

YOU SHOULD DAMM WELL BE THINKING ABOUT IT.

But she told me it was easier to just change the channel

And so here we are . . .

(sigh)

[Minstrel Boy]

7. As you said,

I "couldn't be paid enough to cross that border."

Which is really sad. I love visiting NYC. But it will have to wait.

[Kanary]

35. "Half the nation Whining about it doesn't do much for me unless they DO

something about it."

There you have it, right there!!!

I want to emphasize it, as it bears repeating..

"Half the nation Whining about it doesn't do much for me unless they DO something about it."

I agree with you so much, and I'm appreciative that you come right out and SAY it.

So many times I have taken things I've seen here, shared it with "activists", and given them the information about where and how to write, call, etc., and yet.......... even that is too much to even contemplate, so they just don't do it.

I wonder how many right here on DU even make those phone calls, write those letters.

Oh well, it's all been said before, but........

Thanks for the reminder...... I'll be quoting your words to friends this weekend....

Kanary

[NMDemDist2]

38. i made a vow to spend 15 minutes a day

calling writing etc and one saturday a month "working" my precinct

so count me as 1 who is doing more than whining

[Kanary]

40. Great vow, and very workable commitment!

I've been sitting here, composing a letter, and read your reply, and now I feel encouraged and energized.

Can you imagine what a difference it would make if 90% of DU were to follow your commitment? I have to believe we'd be seeing a huge difference in our representation, (the Dems might get a spine, if we pushed them.....), and we'd begin to see some return on our effort.

Fifteen minutes a day is very reasonable, and yet adds up to a big accomplishment. So, how do we spread your idea and get a large percentage of Dems to follow suit?

Thanks, you've brightened my day!

Kanary

[NMDemDist2]

50. i can't take credit for it - I think it was a MoveOn.org suggestion

or maybe I got it from Michael Moore, but either way seemed a reasonable committment to make

[Kanary]

59. You can take credit for picking up the ball and going with it

As I said, *if only* a majority of us would do that, what a difference it would make!

I shared that suggestion with a couple of others today...... here's hoping it "takes". :)

Kanary

[skooooo]

48. When Gore conceded...

..what choice did anyone have???

[Bjornsdotter]

6. I live here but....

Hi,

I currently live in the US but travel quite often to Sweden to visit family or have family come and visit here.

The questions I'm most often asked are...

"How can the American people be so taken in by Bush; can't we see him for what he truly is?"

"How could we have let him over ride the election results?"

"How can someone who is so dumb be president?"

He is not well liked in Sweden, however Clinton came to visit about 2 years ago and the people went crazy. Large crowds turned out to watch him play golf and listen to his speeches.

By the way...it really didn't help Bush's popularity when he was dismissive of Hans Blix, who had been Sweden's Foreign Prime Minister.

Cheers,
Kim

[No2W2004]

9. Heh,

Well, another one of big dog's nicknames is Elvis

[SpaceCatMeetsMars]

19. I heard some gossip about that on Air America yesterday

On "Unfiltered," Liz Winstead, who is from Minnesota, was speaking jokingly about the rivalry between people of Swedish and Norwegian extraction there, and she said that Karl Rove seriously hated Hans Blix because Karl has Norwegian blood.

Of course, I'm sure he hates everyone having to do with the UN anyway and so does Bush.

[ithacan]

23. that's from the Woodward book

The Rove is mad at Sweden for having colonized Norway hundreds of years ago and so he was very anti-Blix as a result.

It does sound on target, the kind of petty, small minded nastiness that marks this entire administration.

[Bjornsdotter]

77. Karl Rove

Hi,

I had read before, and I'm really not sure of the accuracy, that Karl Rove was a dual national...US and Germany,that could be another reason he dislikes Blix.

Cheers,
Kim

[bobthedrummer]

84. Do they see BFEE as fascists, by any chance?

I've been an American anti-fascist since I was 15. I'm 54 now.
:hi:

[rman]

10. how could i be on DU and think that?

DU is living proof that not all Americans are like the US government.

i think that *both*
your Government was stolen from you.
*and*
that you got what you deserved.

It is the (deliberatly created) apathy that enables such theft.

Much like it is in all of the 'free west'.

If you'd start leaving the US, i'd understand and support you.

[MrPrax]

11. Yup...

Yer all guilty...and you should really take yer heads out of yer asses...

"Do you equate the current administration with the way most Americans think?" yup...apparantly the other party thinks that way as well and since americans don't vote or care about anything other than what their TVs tell them, they are all suspect...

"Do you think our Government was "stolen out from under the citizens" or do you think the "Americans got what they deserved for being so damned apathetic"?" couldn't care less about the domestic scene...your're not that important

What would be the attitude in your country if Americans started leaving America "en mass" out of fear of Shrub and what he has planned? slash their tires and send them back on the Dog...

I think the end of Brunner's classic "The Sheep Look Up" is probably apt...

[Brian_Expat]

13. In a way, this post cracks me up. . .

. . . in that lots of people accuse Americans of being "stupid and insular," yet have stupid and insular assumptions about Americans themselves.

Ah, human nature, you've got to love it. :)

[MrPrax]

37. Hardly...

It's self-preservation...

They're culture is just too bizarre by western standards and if they emigrate in too large numbers, then they can affect the host nation.

BTW, I think also the canadian gov't should send back those draft dodgers post haste--at soon as they hit the border.

Why?

1) Because there are already enough dubious refugee claims and their's don't even met the minimum criteria...makes it more difficult for real refugees.

2) not an issue that is worth antagonizing the US government...

Being 'stupid and insular' is apt response when stupidity and insularity are proud national symbols...

[Spazito]

39. As a Canadian, I have no problem if we "antagonize" the US govt...

as long as it is held captive by bush. Canada will do what is right, regardless of what the bush cabal may say OR do.

[MrPrax]

66. So then it is held captive by Kerry...

Big deal...rather than worrying about their 'sovereignty' you should concern yourself with OURS...

It is NOT right to bother with American internal politics regarding grandstanding by american 'liberals' and a couple of 'deserters'...

Ever think it might be a set up?

Agreed...it is a cabal...but it ain't necessarily Bush's...

[Brian_Expat]

12. I'm an American living abroad. . .

. . . and the general attitude throughout Europe is that most Americans love and undyingly support Bush. I have to constantly bring up that I despise Bush and everything he stands for. Usually saying I'm gay helps, since Bush's anti-gay and anti-abortion stances have been big news here.

One British fellow I speak with regularly was surprised to hear that 70% of Americans didn't support Bush on everything! :O

[billyskank]

14. Do I equate the way most Americans think

with the current administration?

I hope it isn't true. However, I am waiting to see the results of the next election before I make a judgement on that.

Let's face it, we all know what Bushco is all about by now, even the people who don't look outside the mainstream media. I reckon if the next election gives a landslide to Bush and there's no evidence of massive fraud then I will have to sadly conclude that most Americans understand that Bush is a lying bag of scum but frankly aren't too bothered about it.

Any Americans seeking asylum from Bushco's America ought to be welcomed in my opinion.

[wickerwoman]

15. I'm an American living in China.

Most people don't really understand the political process in the U.S. They don't want to believe that George Bush represents most Americans but they have a sneaking suspicion that he does. You can sense a lot of skirting around the subject until you declare you hate him and then the floodgates open. I've never met anyone over here that likes Bush, but I've never met anyone that hates normal Americans either.

So there's a lot of interest in and respect for American culture but a lot of hate for Bush personally.

China won't be offering asylum to American political refugees any time soon though. I have a sofa, but it's reserved for my draft-age brother. Might be able to help people get a job though.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

61. Interesting.

I'm an American living in China.


Most people don't really understand the political process in the U.S. They don't want to believe that George Bush represents most Americans but they have a sneaking suspicion that he does.




Bingo. I'm an American living in America and I feel the same way...

[arcos]

16. No, I do not equate it...

however, I think most people outside the US do. I am aware that the administration's policies do not reflect what the vast majority of Americans believe... if only all of them voted, things would probably be different.

For example, a lot of people think free trade agreements harm third world countries and benefit the US. They don't realize that workers on both sides are harmed, both in developing countries as in the US, while only big companies (again, on both sides) benefit.

Regarding the other question, I believe both. US democracy was ridiculed everywhere after the 2000 fiasco, especially because people don't understand the electoral college... they believed Bush stole the election. However, as I said, if most people who were opposed to the neocons bothered to vote and stop being so apathic, things would be different.

I would support any American who decided to go out of the US. I do not have room for anyone, but I would be available to help in any other way possible, showing them the country or whatever. I live in Costa Rica, btw.

And finally, I personally have no interest whatsoever in visiting the US, and I refuse to do it... and yes, I think the US is becoming a fascist state, and Latin America is the new 'iron curtain light'.

[mr blur]

17. Well, I grew up in the late 50's

and early 60s and at that time America was seen here in England as a kind of wonderful place (no, really) that made grey, drab post-war Britain seem just kind of backward.

Of course since then all the things that you had that we didn't - McDonalds, Disneyland, crap TV, all that - have arrived over here and really cheapened our way of life. I think that America has stopped seeming like the Land of Opportunity to us and now seems like some kind of backward fantasy land full of people who have no idea what the rest of the world is like - and, possibly, no interest in it anyway. Witness the fact that you have a leader who had never been out of the country before he was President. You have here a man who wants to rule a world that he knows nothing about.

I think that you now find yourselves in a possibly hopeless situation which no-one really anticipated and for which, really, Americans have to accept responsibility. No-ne else forced you to have Bush in charge - you allowed it to happen. I mean, Blair is a disgrace to a party which I have voted for all my life and which no longer has anything to do with Socialism - but he's not a stupid man. He doesn't claim that God put him in charge and that God wants him to bomb people and that anyone who isn't a Christian can't be considered a British citizen. If he did he'd be laughed and sneered at (qute rightly) in the press. Your press seems to be little more than a mouthpiece for this moron and his cronies.

Why does everyone in America seems to be so afraid? You're finally facing up to the uncertainties that the rest of the world has been living with for a long time. I think that your country is waking up to the fact that it has to find a place in the world along with everyone else and that it can't demand that everyone else does what it wants. Unfortunately, a large part of your population seems to be offended by this notion. Offended by the very idea that we don't all want to drink beer, watch baseball and do as we're told so we can drive around in quasi-miltary cars running on cheap petrol. (Of course, someone else pays the price for the cheap gas, cheap sportswear but they live somewhere else and, anyway, they're not Americans so they don't count anyway).

Can you imagine the view of your country that other people see? An obsession with guns and killing, a seeming desire to be treated like children and protected from the realities of life, a culture that seems to be founded on dumbness and ignorance. Imagine what we feel when we see some ignorant, over-indulged white American on TV moaning about how the blacks, the mexicans, the Iraqis - anyone else, is messing up their lives. Refusing to take responsibility for their own situation. As if they're somehow entitled to the best of everyting they want because they happen to be American. When I visited the States a guy in Florida said to me, "You're from London? ENGLAND?!" as if I'd flown in on a starship from the other side of the galaxy. Well sure, it's another country - you get a passport, get on a plane and you can go just about anywhere you like. It's not like the place you came from but - that's the point!

You see we DON'T all want to be Americans. We aren't jealous or afraid of your Freedom (you don't seem to have all that much, to me). No-one tells us that we'll go to hell if we don't vote for Tony Blair. He's there because people voted for him. No-one's God had anything to do with it. God didn't make America, it was stolen from the people who lived there. I fear now that it's being stolen from the people who care about it by people who care about little other than themselves and their sense of power.

I have American friends and all of them are embarrassed by the state of America.

I think your country is just waking from its dreams of paradise and starting to grow up. About time, too. It's a difficult process, but a necessary one.

It's a big world and there's room for America in it. But you can't have it all and I fear that not enough of you see it that way.

[ConcernedCanuk]

18. Well said mr blur!

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:thumbsup: . :thumbsup: . :thumbsup: . :thumbsup: . :thumbsup: . :thumbsup: . :thumbsup: . :thumbsup: . :thumbsup: . :thumbsup: . :thumbsup: . :thumbsup: . :thumbsup: . :thumbsup: . :thumbsup: . :thumbsup: . :thumbsup: . :thumbsup: . :thumbsup: . :thumbsup: . :thumbsup: .

[Capt_Nemo]

22. Great post!

[ithacan]

24. excellent; I particularly like this line:

"You have here a man who wants to rule a world that he knows nothing about."

That sums everything up in a nutshell...

[Saeba]

26. Mostly agree.

But to answer to the questions from Japanese point of view:

"My opinion"
USA has done great things by the past (and stopping the imperialist Japan is one of it, even if I strongly disagree on the way to do it). But times have changed and now it's not better than any previous imperialist powers (but more dangerous).

"The current administration is representative?"
I fear so. Maybe the average US citizen feels close to him. Anyway deny that bush was (and probably is yet despite his politic) popular don't seem realist to me. I believe that the matter is far deeper and that bush is only a symptom.

"Do you think our Government was stolen out from under the citizens?"
No. I think that citizens have given up their responsibilities and their life the government. Indeed we could hardly said that bush or this administration are enough brilliant to be able to steal anything, at least without the tacit complicity of the citizens.

"Americans got what they deserved for being so damned apathetic?"
Difficult question and I have no answer. German and Japanese have deserved what it happen to them? A lot of people say yes, some on this board too. Now you can see by yourself that it's not so simple and that fascism can be very insidious.

"What would be the attitude in your country if Americans started leaving America "en mass" out of fear of Shrub and what he has planned?"
You could come as there are plenty of job opportunities here. There is a big trend to learn English in Japan now(and I agree that it's necessary :-)). But it seems that foreigners meet some difficulties to adapt themselves to Japan. Anyway I'm not sure that fleeing USA is a solution as bush is really a world threat.

One last point, I have some Mexicans friends, do you know that they are a bit pissed of by the fact that USA calls itself America?

[SpaceCatMeetsMars]

29. You are so right, Saeba

I never dreamed, as an American, that we would come to see such parallels with the countries that were under fascism. It has been a frightening and humbling experience to see that so many Americans have these tendencies. I have come to have a different view of the Germans and Japanese of the Thirties, now that I have family members who are blindly, like zombies, embracing everything that I despise. They just look at you like you are crazy when you try to argue, in a reasonable fashion, for basic democratic principles!

(To No2W2004, pardon me for interjecting here, I know you addressed the question to DUers outsode the US, but I couldn't help making this comment.)

[Nimble_Idea]

36. Time out

First off, Job opportunities in Japan??? OH REALLY??
I've heard by someone that Japan is one of the worst ANTI- foreigner nation on the planet. It doesn't want foreign people in there because they want to keep Japan "Japan" and PURE in their culture.

So before you go off spewing down on us lowly Americans, think about how closed your place is. THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, and YES AMERICA, despite what your Mexican friends might say, is the BEST PLACE on the friggan PLANET. No one goes around saying that you have to be JEWISH to live here, or you have to be JAPANESE to live here, we let anyone within reason to come here and live the American Dream(Which can mean many things to many people). To think that somehow our Country supports SHRUB goes to show that there is a disconnect in the whole world. This country is HALF and HALF. HALF moron(Republican) and the rest Amercians(Democrats).

And then there are the fringe people who do things out of selfish reasons that cause an entire planet to suffer, and continue to be unchanged, and then have the GALL to talk about the unchanging bums of the south who are intractable in their taliban lite ways. THAT SOMEHOW, democrats MUST conform to THEIR ways like SHRUB says to the rest of the world. So I guess they give up a disiplined position in actually having to WORK WITH OTHERS and work hard one step at a time to get GOOD things done on behalf of not just OUR COUNTRY, but as plain as we can see TODAY, they ENTIRE WORLD.

[Saeba]

41. Who are you?

First off, Job opportunities in Japan??? OH REALLY??
Yes, really! As I’ve said there are plenty of job opportunities as English teacher, at least. Some reason to doubt about it?

I've heard by someone that Japan is one of the worst ANTI- foreigner nation on the planet. It doesn't want foreign people in there because they want to keep Japan "Japan" and PURE in their culture.
Very tolerant speech, isn’t it? Then you hear it? Yes so am I, a lot of time and a lot of complains. But a very strange thing is that I never saw such things, no more that my foreign friends who live here (Mexicans by example). And I’ve also heard that black “Americans” feel less racism here than in their country if you want to know. It doesn’t mean that there is no racism or xenophobia here. But saying that it the worst xenophobic country of the earth should be justified no?

THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, and YES AMERICA, despite what your Mexican friends might say,
As you said, United State of AMERICA. You never wondering what is the meaning of this “AMERICA”? Maybe I misunderstand English but I’ve always believed that America is a continent.

So before you go off spewing down on us lowly Americans
Someone asked for my opinion. I gave it. I didn’t “spew down on lowly “Americans”. The funnier is that actually I think that Japan and USA are very close about foreign policy. Each of them has not a clue about foreign cultures. And it’s why I think that each of them should be better to avoid interfering lightly in foreign country.

To think that somehow our Country supports SHRUB goes to show that there is a disconnect in the whole world.
Even if has you say it’s only half of the country who support bush, it seems close enough in a democracy. And even if I don’t believe too much in poll, it seems also that it was more than half of your country that supported the war against Iraq.

This country is HALF and HALF. HALF moron(Republican) and the rest Amercians(Democrats).
The good against the bad? The cowboy against the Indians? The white against the black? The Christian against the Muslim? Interesting view of the world. May I ask you in witch party you place yourself?

Sorry but I’ve definitely lost you on the last paragraph. But I fear that I didn’t miss anything anyway.

THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, and YES AMERICA, despite what your Mexican friends might say, is the BEST PLACE on the friggan PLANET. No one goes around saying that you have to be JEWISH to live here, or you have to be JAPANESE to live here
First I miss the link about to be Jewish. Japanese I could understand but why Jewish? I’ve absolutely nothing against Jewish but I’m very curious about why you mention them, and only them, here?

To finish, if you had spent a bit of time to read me, you could seen that I’ve stated the fact that “foreigners meet some difficulties to adapt themselves to Japan”. Japan is a very different country with a complex set of social rules. You can fit in or not. You can like it or not. I never asked to anyone to like Japan. I only ask that we allow us to live as we like at long that we not threat other countries (by the way sending troop in Iraq is a serious break in our pacific constitution and should not be allowed), as we have to respect ourselves other countries.
Also I love my country and I think that it’s the best place to live, for me! I was never enough arrogant to think that this is the best country of the world and to decree that every one should live like this, and worst to try to impose it by force. Japan has already done this crime one time, and we have paid for it…

[Nimble_Idea]

47. I will be Civil

Since I know anyone reading what your saying, sees that you aren't exactly the best at english.
and My broken , ill grammar and quick retorts are only going to get diced by the part that you understand.
I didn't explain all my points in the detail needed for you to understand, probably not even for most DU'ers.

So I will respond as such.

I am a Democrat, get used to it.
The United States of America is the best place on the Planet. Get used to it. It's not arrogant, it's an objective observation. You might feel that you can only think that the place you live is the best place in the world, but I would then argue that many people in the world want to live here, not in other places. If you give ANYONE ON THE PLANET a lifetime in America AND a lifetime anywhere else, and then ask them where they would want to spend another lifetime, it will be the USA.


Im sorry, but I'm not going to pretend I like your statements about Japan vs the USA.

You look at our Diverse nation and then look at your diversity in Japan and then come back and talk to US about how racist our country is. Our racism USED to be Government policy, it still is in other places. Japan has policies that keep non-Japanese off that island. Socially, that's a different story in the US and we struggle with it today, we are not perfect. But to imply that there is less racism or none in Japan due to your firsthand experience with your friends is ridiculous, you wouldn't have brought it up otherwise, if not to imply it. Of course your friends don't feel it, they are with people who want to be with them. The younger Japanese, more than likely, are not as much anti-foreigner as the older generation, namely in part because of their love affair with the American Culture. I refer you to your own music, animation, and pop-culture. I'm not saying YOU are racist, but JAPAN has policies that point otherwise.

I will be the first to speak out against Racism here in our country, infact, it has led to many an argument here at DU when we talk about it. Since it's the south and corporate america, I first think about when racism is brought up.

"Maybe I misunderstand English but I’ve always believed that America is a continent."
You still do, North America and South America are continents.

As for the Jewish statement, Jews in Israel want Israel to be almost if not only for Jews. Japan has a similar government stance on Japan being only for Japan. You two people are similar.

More than half the country STILL supports the war, Get used to that fact. The rest of the world doesn't understand something. They are playing games with the U.S., thinking that somehow that the Arab world will turn and kill all Americans. I hope that America doesn't have to wake the world up to the fact, that that can't happen.

[mr blur]

49. You're proving the point.

"The United States of America is the best place on the Planet. Get used to it. It's not arrogant, it's an objective observation. You might feel that you can only think that the place you live is the best place in the world, but I would then argue that many people in the world want to live here, not in other places. If you give ANYONE ON THE PLANET a lifetime in America AND a lifetime anywhere else, and then ask them where they would want to spend another lifetime, it will be the USA."

Really? It's an "objective observation"?

You see, by turning a reasonable question about how others see America into another "America is the greatest - it's a fact" rant you not only call your own point of view into question, you also reinforce the stereotype that the rest of us are being criticised for observing.

Would you care to list all the other countries where you've lived in order to make this statement - you know, the ones where it's accepted as an objective truth that America is just Heaven on Earth?

[Nimble_Idea]

53. I never said America was Heaven on Earth

I said it's the best place on Earth, because that's what most people say that come here to live. Any american who lives here and then visits another country always say when they come back, "Boy I'm glad I'm in America".

This is TRUTH, people come from ALL around the world to live here and share the same sentiments.

Im not being BOLD, im just saying that's what is it. People feel that way all around the world when they come here to live. People come here and they don't go back.

Im not saying that YOUR PLACE SUCKS, Im just saying it's better here.

I guess people think when Americans say that America is the best place , it implies negatives on them, so I guess I should say that's the way I feel.

It's not fact. It's the way I feel becuase the "BEST" place can be different to many people based on different criteria. So I will say that I'm mistaken, and say that I THINK IT IS THE BEST.

So .....

[Solon]

62. I thought I would comment on a few things....

First off I am an "American", I put it in quotes because I was born here, but feel like an ex-pat from another nation. What nation I have no clue, but SOMEWHERE ELSE! I would agree on one point, many recent immagrants do say that our nation is better than the one they came from, but usually it is for various different reasons. This nation is better than many others in the world, where it comes from working conditions or standard of living. However I wouldn't say we are the best, because most of the immigrants that say that come from so called "Third World" countries, where conditions are FAR worse. I have yet met anyone from many western European nations that have said our nation is better than theirs, its a matter of perspective. We are far from the worst nations on Earth in this regard, but we aren't the best either.

I see the United State quickly devolving into the same standard of living as that of many third world nations. We have a system of health care where if someone's kid gets leukemia then that family is bankrupt and in debt, usually because they can't afford the $300 dollar a month insurance premium, or because their insurance refused to pay, and their kid will still probably die. The America I knew is dying, not only are opportunities drying up, but we are blind to the affects we have on the rest of the world and ourselves. We are neither the best nation on Earth nor the worst, we are one of the most powerful, and yet we abdicate that responsibility to a minority through our own apathy and ignorance. How seriously would people like those in Iraq or Afganistan take democracy when most people in our own country refuse to practice it? How are we supposed to be taken seriously by other nations, if our own people refuse to see our own faults while pointing out the faults of others? We are not perfect, and neither are any other nation, but we insist that we are the BEST and that's the end of the discussion. How would you feel if the schoolyard bully came up to you and said that he was the Best Person on the Planet, and threatened to take your lunch money if you don't agree? That is how I view my own nation, and the biggest and baddest on the playground, and also the most ruthless, refusing to use self-reflection to understand its own faults, and refusing to seek peaceful ends of conflicts.

[Art_from_Ark]

81. As an American who has studied Japan for half his life

and lived there for a third of his life, I can say that you are be a little prone to hyperbole. I have been working in Japan since before the Clinton era and can assure you that foreigners do work here. The problem comes when people who are not qualified to work here work anyway, just like in the US.

As a foreigner here, I don't feel like too many doors have been closed to me. My kids, who are not obviously Japanese, go to Japanese schools and they seem to be adjusting nicely. I can rest assured that one of their classmates won't go beserk and pull a gun on them, and that they probably won't be offered illegal drugs during their school career. When they had to spend time in the hospital, I could rest assured knowing that they were in good hands, and that my national health insurance would pay for most of the expenses.

The are other things I want to say as well, but I have to go to work now.

So, ijo desu.

[Saeba]

63. So am I.

I am a Democrat, get used to it.
No problem with it. But your first post was really offensive and closer to what I’m in use to read on free republic.

The United States of America is the best place on the Planet.
I will not insist too much on this as we reach a consensual point in your later post. It’s the best place for you, and for a lot of other people too I agree, but not for the whole world.

If you give ANYONE ON THE PLANET a lifetime in America AND a lifetime anywhere else, and then ask them where they would want to spend another lifetime, it will be the USA.
Wrong. The vast majority prefer their country. It’s true for Japanese, Asian, South American and European (I don’t know about African as I’ve not spent enough time with them to have an opinion). And some of them have spent time in USA. Myself I could have a job in USA in a week (not sure about the timing since 09/11 but it was true before), and even have a better position in USA than here. But it’s simply not a good deal to exchange money against quality of life. And money is probably the first reason that attire people to USA, not your “freedom”.

Im sorry, but I'm not going to pretend I like your statements about Japan vs the USA.
No problem, I’m not candidate to an election. And I’ve no trouble with your dislike about Japan and your love with USA, if you don’t try to present them as universal true.

Our racism USED to be Government policy, it still is in other places. Japan has policies that keep non-Japanese off that island.
About Japan politic, No2W2004 has explained it very well in plain English (even if the matter with the Japanese hostage is not the fact of the majority of the population).
And you seem to ignore that there is big issue with foreign immigrants since the 09/11 in USA.

But to imply that there is less racism or none in Japan due to your firsthand experience with your friends is ridiculous, you wouldn't have brought it up otherwise, if not to imply it.
Why? I's better saying Japan is a racist country because you heard it?

The younger Japanese, more than likely, are not as much anti-foreigner as the older generation, namely in part because of their love affair with the American Culture. I refer you to your own music, animation, and pop-culture.
Thank, it was a long time since someone said that I was young. And once again you overestimated the influence of the American culture. Japanese are interested by all culture, not only American’s one. But sadly this interest never goes over the simple leisure, and there is no personal implication generally.

I'm not saying YOU are racist, but JAPAN has policies that point otherwise.
No, it’s not a government policy, it’s strictly forbidden in Japan (and it’s due to the American by the way). But it’s true that sadly there is a feeling of superiority in Japanese population, and that Japanese can be very condescending, not an offensive racism but a very unpleasant condescension. I’m very sorry about this, but Japanese are after all only human, with their good and bad points.

You still do, North America and South America are continents.
Not yet satisfied. I’ve believed that there are only five continents, not in English? But this is only for fun.

More than half the country STILL supports the war, Get used to that fact. The rest of the world doesn't understand something. They are playing games with the U.S., thinking that somehow that the Arab world will turn and kill all Americans. I hope that America doesn't have to wake the world up to the fact, that that can't happen.
Then get used that people all over the world hate you!
You’re definitely paranoid. No, Muslims don’t want to kill you all. No, the rest of the world doesn’t want your extermination. Can you imagine that you’re only a part of the world, and if we speak about population only a small part. Could you understand that people of the world have a lot of other problems than your “precious” person?

You flame us for our condemnation of USA when your government spread war in the world, but it’s ok for you to condemn all Muslims because a small number of them pursue a private war with your fascists.

I love my country, yet I strongly condemn its previous imperialist policy. I really liked the USA by the past, and I condemn its present imperialist policy. And it’s even worst because your people can’t plead ignorance for their defence.
In a way, it’s a personal matter, as I was in used to defend the image of the USA before. You betrayed me, and all people who have once believed in an ideal of democracy and respect of people.

[mr blur]

69. Well said!

[freeforall]

45. Chill out already!

You just prove my point.

[Nimble_Idea]

54. explain the point exactly

I calmed down. I understand how there is a disconnect with the dialoge here. The english isn't getting through as clean and more than likely they don't understand politics here enough.

I don't like it when people around the world think all Americans are bad becuase they think we are all like Republicans.

Republicans should pay a heavy price this political season for making it that way around the world, it makes it harder to do anything.

If in the end this only bolsters SHRUB, then I probably should be nicer to other countries, since we will all have to move there! :)

of course I'm only joking, Democrats contrary to belief, aren't going to give up america without a fight.

[No2W2004]

52. I have to disagree here

NOTHING is "black & white" where politics is concerned. I put it to you that a large part of the US may be ignorant, but not morons. They stay ignorant because they feel that government is too big and too complicated for the "average citizen" to be bothered with. They stay ignorant because they feel that the corporations have bought the government and the "average citizen" doesn't matter anymore. Now, there ARE morons, to be sure, but I wouldn't call half the country morons.

As far as your comments on Japan, It is a very, very different culture there. In the US, we are centered on the individual. In Japan, they see the individual as part of a whole. The 5 Japanese that returned from Iraq, from what I've read, people were not mad at them for going to Iraq, they were mad at them for going there without regard for what their families and their government would go through if something happened to them. I don't believe Japan does not want foreigners, but I do believe that once there, a foreigner would be expected to try and adapt to society.

[arcos]

58. Welcome to DU, Saeba!!!

:hi: :hi: :hi:

[NuttyFluffers]

68. sweet, my plan has merit then

plan on visiting japan through my college major (japanese) and then network to see if i can get a work visa to return and stay there. ride out the storm as it were in the face of the Rise of the Bubbas.

my alternate plan is learning french. who knows, hopefully one of them would want to accept me. i see no future for me in the america i see now. i'm just biding time.

never gonna give up my passport though. i'm american through and through. the dream may have turned into a nightmare recently but doesn't mean i'll stop hoping and working for change. it's just i need to take care of me and mine first before i can worry about taking on the Army of Bubbas. this way i'd have more resources to fight an unfair fight (the only way to win). americans are fighting for america's soul and i refuse to lay down and lose, but i refuse to throw myself against a stack deck defenseless.

[shrike]

30. You're right, we should have taken to the streets in 2000

I'm as much to blame as anyone else.

[freeforall]

44. Very eloquent mr blur! (n/t)

[muriel_volestrangler]

20. I see America divided into quarters

One quarter is completely in agreement with, and under control of, the Bush regime. There is no hope of having a reasonable discussion with them, or of changing their views. I met a few when living in the States, and quickly learned to stay away from them. They vote for the most right wing candidate they're told has a chance of being elected.

The next quarter are more apathetic, politically. They might possibly vote, if they can be persuaded it's important. Unfortunately, they're more likely to vote for an incumbent, because that seems 'patriotic' to them. They don't question what the government tells them, much; they make up most of the rest of the 'Saddam was involved in 9/11' dupes. When polled about how good a job Bush is doing, they vary, depending on the current news emphasis.

Another quarter are apolitical. Unlikely to be registered to vote at all, they're either completely apathetic, or so pissed off with all major candidates that they stay out of the system (OK, really that's 2 groups).

The last quarter is the typical Democrat, ie nearly everyone on DU. We know you oppose Bush, almost certainly voted against him, and are even more worried about him than most of the rest of the world - at least we have the option of staying out of drafts and Syrian invasions.

Did you deserve Bush? Well, the first quarter enjoy him; the second deserve him, as do, in a way, the third - you can't complain too much about an electoral result if you never tried to vote. Our sympathies are with the rest of you. Maybe you should have shouting longer and harder "Just count the fucking votes!" in Florida 2000, but you don't deserve what's happened since.

I doubt there will be a mass exodus from the USA (but if you're trying to dodge the draft in the UK, I wouldn't recommend it - we now basically extradite any American on the say-so of the American government - they don't have to prove anything in court. This relationship, is, of course, one-sided. Thanks, poodle). I don't think the UK would take too kindly to a huge number of Americans suddenly arriving - we'd say something like 'you're so keen on courts and guns, go back and retake your country somehow'.

Many Americans have 2 weaknesses, exploited by the Republicans - religion and patriotism. They're honourable people, and can't imagine that someone would falsely claim to be a good Christian; and "my country, right or wrong" comes too easily to their lips. America needs more scepticism.

[Capt_Nemo]

21. Here it goes

1. "Do you equate the current administration with the way most Americans think?"

In a way, yes.

I think that a majority of Americans were "fooled" (and still are) into supporting
the current administrations policies. Some of them are victims of
the deliberate brainwashing conducted by US mainstream media, propping
up violation of international law and criminal behaviour as acceptable
state policies, some of them are blinded by their nationalistic hubris to
the evil policies conducted in their name and some of them indulge
in the GWB cult of personality engineered by the media.

But if you asked me if most americans support a global power grab and
imperialism I would tell you: no. Some don't realize that is what their
leaders are up to, others are in denial about it.

The problem is that the US citizens must realize that the responsability
for their nations actions ultimately in their hands and if they do
not wish to be accomplices in the crimes perpetrated by their
goverment they have to take their heads out of their asses and
substitute their leaders. Otherwise, I repeat, they will have to
share responsibility for the crimes perpetrated by their goverment.


2. Do you think our Government was "stolen out from under the citizens"

Yes, definetly. But it was long ago in the WWII aftermath, when the
"Military Industrial Complex" took over. Eisenhower's speech was
a matter of too little too late, it had already happened. And it
is this you're up against: not these 4 years of GWB, but more
than 50 years of a cancer eating away at the very heart of democracy.

That disease has a name: it is called fascism.

This is why I find it hard to believe that change can still come from
within, although I would love that americans would get their act
together and prove me wrong.


3. do you think the "Americans got what they deserved for being so damned apathetic"?

It is not a matter of "deserving", but that one simply can not escape the consequences
of his/her actions, or inacton in this case. It is an historical inevitability. For an example, see the last paragraph of point 1.


4. What would be the attitude in your country if Americans started leaving America "en mass" out of fear of Shrub and what he has planned?

I can not speak for my fellow contrymen who are obsessed with soccer
and celebrity gossip, and oblivious to what goes on beyond borders.

Speaking for myself I would welcome them all with arms open, just like America once welcomed Albert Einstein, Thomas Mann, Bertold Brecht
and Kurt Weil, among many others.

[Paradise]

25. Great original message/questions No2W2004!

It leaves me wanting to read more replies.:thumbsup:

[Spazito]

27. Here are my thoughts as your neighbour from the north...

I do not equate the actions of the bush administration with the United States as a whole but do equate the takeover by the bush cabal with the fact that 50% of US citizens didn't bother to exercise their responsibility to vote. Democracies are fragile and can be destroyed more easily than I think Americans realize, one's vote is a precious thing and to quote an old bargaining slogan, "Use it or lose it".

As to how I would feel if many US citizens wanted to emigrate to Canada, I would welcome them but hope that they will exercise their responsibility to vote and take back their country and their constitution, both of which are in danger of being lost.

[Kellanved]

28. not an easy thing to do

America is the leading nation in the western world. For this reason American politics affect everyone in Europe - sometimes directly, sometimes indirectly.

I have friends and family at the East coast, and spent Easter in Connecticut - I have failed to meet a single person who did not apologize for Bush in the first five minutes of talking.
So I know very well that Bush does not equal America and that religious fundies don't equal America either. However when reading an article about Bush's politics it is hard not to say "those wacky Amis". The same is true when reading something about Creationism, or the bible belt.

However I see Bush and many in his cabinet appalealing to very low motifs, what is not always easy to stomach. Be it the general "foreigners, what do they know?"-, the anti-gay-, the "remember, we were attacked"-, the "<insert name> wants to take away our freedom"-, the "God bless America"-, the "Socialist, bankrupt Europe"-, "<Candidate X> wants to raise taxes AND bankrupt the treasury"- or especially the "Zapatero's victory was a victory for terrorism" -theme. It seemed impossible to evade, and difficult to question them.
One gets the feeling that it might be possible to hide a lot of bad news under a Flag and behind a cross- that is hard for me to understand.

Especially the Anti-Europe attitude seemed to go down very well with many Americans, and I was very appalled by a certain news channel's viewpoints. I find it very hypocritical to complain about European Anti-Americanism (which exists, but not everything perceived as Anti-Americanism truly is), while flinging much more and worse dirt over the Atlantic.

As for the election: From my viewpoint Bush won. He did so with the help of people stretching laws, made for another era, to their limits. IMHO not allowing felons to vote is not a practice becoming a modern democracy, nor is the use of any voting machines.

I don't see Americans leaving en masse. It is not exactly easy to immigrate into the EU, nor is the economy developing in a way to make it worthwhile. The number of American tourists returning to normal was perceived as being very good news, I wish the student exchange programs were a little more active.
I see Bush as the president with the worst foreign policy in my lifetime, and what I'm reading about his domestic politics doesn't look much better. However I don't think the US is headed away from democracy.

[Brooklyn-Mecca]

31. Hmmm...

"However I don't think the US is headed away from democracy."

We already are at the most sophisticated form of fascism ever devised...can't get much further from democracy than that.

[foreigncorrespondent]

32. My answers!

Do you equate the current administration with the way most Americans think? Not at all. I realize that not all American's are as empty headed as the wanker in chief.

I have met a lot of wonderful American's over the years, both here at DU, and in other places I have hung out on, over the 'net. Most of the people I have met, seem to lean to the left of the political spectrum, and most would be able to out do any repuke in a debate.

Do you think our Government was "stolen out from under the citizens" or do you think the "Americans got what they deserved for being so damned apathetic"? Yes the election was stolen. I was in the United States during the 2000 theft, so I saw first hand the debacle which followed.

The only people who deserve what ever they get are the repukes, for putting such an arrogant, bigoted, prick in power in the first place. And those goes for the idiots on the SCOTUS too.

When the draft comes calling at their homes, and their kids are taken overseas to the war for oil, maybe then, they might begin to wake up and smell the roses.


What would be the attitude in your country if Americans started leaving America "en mass" out of fear of Shrub and what he has planned? I would shake everyone's hand, for realizing that just some times, life, love, prosperity are a hell of a lot more important than a country.

[gator_in_Ontario]

55. Thanks!

I really enjoyed your post.
I used to believe that "you get the government you deserve"...now I think sometimes you get the government that is forced upon you. A good lesson for us Americans (and any other democratic country) I think.
But if this doesn't wake us up....it WILL be the government we deserve

[foreigncorrespondent]

64. Welcome.

The people of the U.S. aren't that bad (excluding the arrogant POS's on the right.) It is just the government that makes the country look bad, so how can anyone say the country deserves such an arrogant POS?

I think the citizens have gotten a raw deal over the years because of the "ugly American" we hear so much about, when yanks travel. But what I have noticed in the ugly American's that I have come across during my time, they all seem to be freepers.

[Aunt Anti-bush]

33. To everyone outside of the US

I am a female who was born in America and have always lived here. To anyone who may not understand why things have gotten so out of hand, here is what I think. I grew up in the so called, "American Dream". My family was middle class and we had a nice house and nice things. Nothing fancy and we did have some hard times, but we always got through it. The entire time I was in school we rarely touched on REAL issues of government in our history classes and government classes. Instead, we were taught about every other country and their problems and basically I believed that the United States had no real problems internally. I was raised to be proud to live in the "greatest country in the world." I was raised to feel sorry for people in other countries who didn't have the same freedoms I did. Anyway, I grew up and went to work and started a family. I voted for Clinton and Clinton again and all seemed well with the world. I voted for Gore and went to bed on the night of that election knowing full well that Gore had won and that we'd be at peace with the world for 4 more years. (Not that we really ever were totally at peace, but that is what I'd always been taught.) I wake up and Bush is the president instead. Now, I am quite intelligent and I know for certain that something was rigged and that Bush could not be our president. So did many other Americans, but to anyone living outside of the US who says we were complacent and didn't object strong and firm, you are correct. But, think about it. Why would we? Big deal, politics really isn't that much of an issue for most people here who were just working and living their lives and enjoying this fabulous country. So Bush won. A lot of people were outraged and angry but what are you going to do? Write a letter that no one will ever read? So, complacent, we all were. I just accepted it as a bunch of crap and went on with my life.

One day I was sent home from work with the impression that we had come under some major attack on 9-11. I couldn't believe it and to be quite honest even though not too much scares me, I was scared to death that day. Our bosses made it seem as if someone had waged war on American soil, which I seriously NEVER in a million years would have imagined. I was raised to feel safe here, too, of course.

I will never forget the short drive home that day. There was NO one on the highway. I mean NO one. I was shaking so hard I could barely drive and there was one thing on my mind that morning. BUSH. Somehow, I had the feeling that if we hadn't been such a complacent bunch of idiots and allowed Bush to steal the election, whatever this was wouldn't be happening.

Since 9-11 many Americans have woken up and pulled their heads out of their asses, so to speak, including myself. But now we're left with how to get out of this nightmare. We write letters now, many of them. We make phone calls now, a lot of them. Still, nothing happens and do you know why? Our congress is NOT listening to what the voters are saying. Our media isn't responding when we complain that we'll boycott for republican bias. Our freedoms are slowly being torn away by an administration that feeds us this bs about protecting us. Our ONLY chance here is to vote for 'anybody but Bush' in 2004 and I can pretty much guarantee that if he is re-elected in the same manner as before there will not be the utter complacency as seen before.

I can only hope that the world wakes up and realizes that NOT all Americans believe the crap we're fed by the media now, even though most of us did before 9-11. I can only pray that the world doesn't think that we're all behind Bush because we are not. The ONLY people I know who are pro-Bush are the idiots who make so much money that they can't figure out where to spend it all and why should they be concerned with the rest of the world? They're still living the "American Dream" or so they think. One good thing is that some of our letters and telephone calls must be finally making their point because I have seen some change in the media, little by little and with that, hopefully those who still have their heads up their asses will soon emerge to the truth and Bush will have no one left on his side except the "God" he believes he's hearing speak to him on a daily basis.

A great many of us already know the truth and we're scared to death for our country and for the world thanks to GW. So believe me when I say that if given a 2nd chance (and I certainly hope we're not given that chance) we'd all protest loudly and clearly if GW was elected again in that strange way he was elected the first time. We had no reason to before, but he's certainly given us plenty of reasons to voice our concerns now.

Please, if you're not from America, know that a great many of us here are parents and we want what is right for the world when we look at our babies' faces, just like you do. We just didn't realize how very much one administration could affect our total government and the entire world before Bush got us into all of these messes.

[KAZ]

34. Great post adaircraft.

I really teared up there at the end. Thanks, and welcome to DU.

[No2W2004]

43. Welcome adaircraft!

Well done! :hi:

and a big thank you for everyone who has posted!

In the election of 2000, only 50% bothered to vote. The 50% that didn't had various reasons, but the one I heard more than the rest was "it doesn't matter...they are all the same, they will just do what their big campaign donors tell them to do." I, myself, thought along similar lines. I voted Gore, but I thought that deep down, democrat or republican, they were all owned by the corporate interest.

I was wrong, and I know that a lot of Americans see that too. Shrub's administration has taken it to a new, darker level that was inconceivable 4 years ago. Voter turnout will be bigger this year, but it still won't be more than 75%. Why?

There is a large segment here that gets their only news from local tv broadcast. Everything is ratings driven (for profits) so the media employs a method of getting more viewers known as "if it bleeds, it leads". Every night, Americans are pumped full of fear as they see the latest shooting death, child abduction, gang bust,etc. This segment does not read newspapers, nor do they search the internet to find out the facts for themselves. The 30 sec. sound bite is their preferred method of gathering information. They see Shrub standing before the flag, in his new expensive suit, at a podium with the presidential seal, but all they get to hear him say is a tiny clip.
Most of this segment can't give you the names of more than 2 members of Shrub's cabinet, but they can give you the last 20 Super bowl winners.

This is the segment that Shrub's people are counting on. They just need to stay home and watch the latest "reality" crap on Fox. Don't worry about the government. Only the "elitist" discuss the government. The government knows more than you do. The government is too complicated for ordinary folks to figure out. Just stay on the couch and let us take care of the "evildoers" for you with our hi-tech weaponry that looks so impressive.

The good news is day by day, this segment is shrinking with every new relivation, every new scandal, every new death. People ARE FINALLY, at long last, starting to remove their heads from their asses and are starting to realize the awful mess this administration has gotten us into.

My hope is that it isn't too late for all of our sakes.

[freeforall]

46. Wow! Thanks adaircraft.

I'm sure there are many others like you in the US (there are lots on this board)who are worried. Bush is a total nutcase, and we all want him out. So, although we can only send our prayers - maybe they will help.

I like the US and can't wait to visit again - but I don't really want to venture across the border anytime soon.

Welcome to DU!

:toast:

[freeforall]

42. My thoughts on the US situation

First of all, I must say that I was living and working in NYC during the 2000 selection, and was more alarmed by the thought of * being elected than my American colleagues. I urged my colleagues not to vote for him because it "felt" wrong and that no good would come of it.

I must admit, I was puzzled by my own vehemence, and colleagues and friends at home shook their heads in wonder at this "crazy Canuck." Well, I don't need to explain that my intuition was justified.

Chimpy is an idiot. This is the worst pResident I have ever seen in office, and I think the US is in deep shit. How Americans could have given him enough votes to even get close enough to steal the 2000 election is beyond my understanding! Americans have lost their vision if they could choose this uneducated, unsophisticated country bumpkin as their highest representative.

I used to think very highly of Americans - found them friendly (if aggressive at times), optimistic, and intelligent for the most part (though they still don't know much about their own country - let alone Canada or the rest of the world). Now though, I have to wonder. I am sure that there are many Americans who still embody those qualities. But consumerism, selfishness, intolerance, and outright paranoia seem way more prominent than they did 30 years ago.

To answer your specific questions:
1. No, I don't equate the current administration with all Americans.
2. Damn staight - the election was "stolen."
3. Americans did "get what they deserve" by not protesting the selection at the time. I would have thought, given their assertive nature, that Americans would have been out in the streets. Chimpy et al is the "reward" for their apathy. However, have Americans learned anything? And will they allow the same thing to happen and raise no voice of protest?
4. I think that any freedom-loving American should stay in the country and fight with any peaceful means (sounds like a contradiction, eh?) to remove this squatter and elect a president with vision. There is a lot of rebuilding to do - and it needs to start at the grassroots level. For example - take back your power and vote! It is a privilege to have a voice, and anybody who does not contribute (even that small amount) has no right to complain about the outcome. I also think Americans (generally speaking) need to "get with the program" and start becoming globally conscious. They could start by taking out a geography text or a few maps and getting to know their own country and others. Imagine how they fit in with the world, rather than assuming they are the world.

This is a complex topic, and I feel somewhat like a sports fan. "Go Dems Go!" "WTF? Chimpy has high poll numbers?" "Kerry seems like Bush-lite." Ah, more of the same.

In the end, Americans need to realize that if they are going to have a major influence on the world, there is a repsonsibility that goes with it. It would be appropriate to consider their international image, how they fit in the global picture, and how their coming decision in November will affect all of us.

[Nimble_Idea]

51. sounds like you need to talk to the Republicans

you people act as though the election WASN't close and that MANY if not more than HALF this country didn't like the outcome, because MORE THAN HALF THE VOTE was for the OTHER guy. But we aren't people to sit and dwell on crap either. GUESS WHAT, the Supreme court had the final say and THEN IT WAS DONE. IF your somehow suggesting armed revolt, you mistake the democratics and American people.


Most people probably thought , YES, Shrub is an idiot, he seems harmless. Well now they know better.
I didn't vote for Shrub, and won't ever.

WE got what we deserved??
I'm not going to respond, because it will only get deleted.

[arcos]

57. You don't get it...

it is not about an armed revolt, but the fact that nothing was done after the 2000 fiasco to avoid it happening again says a lot.... oh, wait a minute!! Yeah, something was done.... electronic voting machines were installed!!! :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

People outside the US are completely amazed that polls show a close election. That's why a lot think that * enjoys widespread support. Because of this administration's policies right now Kerry should be ahead by 20% or more. The fact is that he is not, and the world realizes this and can't understand how 50% of Americans can be so stupid as to support the GOP.

In the 2000 elections only 50% bothered to vote... so, it is a little hard not to say that you deserve it, considering that 50% don't even care enough to go to the polling station (or vote absentee). Usually in most modern democracies turnout is a little higher...

I understand and agree with most of what you've said on this thread... people around the world have a distorted notion of what the US population really thinks. But try to re-read this whole thread with an open mind, and try to find out WHY foreigners think that way. I think most of us that have posted here KNOW for a fact that it is not the majority of Americans who support Bush... but most people in our countries DO think that way. And there's a lot of evidence that supports that notion.

Try to be a little less arrogant... a lot of us foreign DUers probably know a lot more about US politics than the average American citizen. Hell, I think I can name at least 60-70 US Senators from memory, including their state. I'm pretty sure the average American citizen can name 5 the most.

And no, I can't speak English as well as my native language, but I think I write clear enough for most people here to understand what I'm saying. And the same thing applies to most foreign DUers who have posted in this thread. To suggest there's some sort of language barrier is insulting IMHO.

Try to avoid reinforcing the false stereotypes the world has about Americans, such as the superiority complex some people think you guys have. This only harms your (and our) cause.

[freeforall]

60. Hi arcos...

To outsiders it does appear that the US is complacent about what is happening in their own country.

We see the stolen election, 911 LIHOP or MIHOP, Afghanistan, Iraq, Bush's continual lies and distortions, media complicity, etc., and have to wonder WTF? Are the people and their representatives in a permanent fantasyland?

I can tell you that many people I know think that the US government is very dangerous to global freedom, and see the continued support for Bush as baffling.

If the people of the US allow him to get in again (which they can prevent by voting - for Kerry in this case) I think the world's opinion will really take a plunge. "Fool me once...."

[shrike]

71. The Canadian woman I met the other day was relieved to talk to someone

who hates Bush. She was under the impression we all love him. She is terrified that he will get back in. I said, "I am, too."

[arcos]

76. I agree...

if Bush is reselected, it will cause permanent harm to the US reputation worldwide.

As I said in my earlier message, Kerry SHOULD be ahead by 20% or more.

[SpaceCatMeetsMars]

56. I think I can speak for a lot of Democrats when I say

we are acting differently now than in 2000. Maybe it was the right-wing echo-machine, I don't know, it is no excuse, but many of us were so diffident and reticent about politics. We were afraid to seem "political" or partisan. I didn't work for Gore, just thought it was enough to vote and give a little money. Now I know it is important to volunteer for your candidate, send money, protest, write letters, do what you can. We did screw up royally with our inaction and owe it to everybody not to make that mistake ever again.

It really helped to go online and find out that each of us wasn't the only one that felt that something was very wrong, Before that, it was like the media convinced each person it was just them and that there was something wrong with THEM if they didn't like the way everything was going down. It's hard to explain, all I know is we were told, "Get over it!" after the election and then we got VERY mad about that and started to talk to each other and started to act.

[Matilda]

65. I guess we'll get the answer in November.

The facts are out there now for all to see and read about, if they
want to. If Bush gets thrown out, there's hope.

Provided, of course, that he isn't allowed to cheat in the election
again. Then it will be a case not just of "God help America", but
"God help the world".

[mr blur]

70. To tie in with the original thread

what if Bush gets in again? How would you in the US expect the rest of the world to view your country?

[Matilda]

72. Ah, not my country.

But if Bush gets a second term and doesn't have to worry about
another election, I think the rest of the world will quickly learn
to be very afraid. I think we will see the neo-con agenda in all
its true colours.

That's why, although I'm Australian, I have a vested interest in
this election as well - we all do. Given the power of the U.S.,
none of us can afford to shrug off the Bush military/industrial
machine as none of our business. It is very much all of our
business - especially when you and I have "leaders" who scramble
to follow wherever Bush leads.

[No2W2004]

82. Good Question...

I'm not sure how to answer. If shrub wins by a landslide and everyone seems happy about it, then the neocons will enact their plans for a world dominated by US desires to consolodate the world's wealth and resources. It will be facisim on a grand scale. It's all spelled out in the Project for a New American Century. These bastards will stop at nothing if they get a mandate.

If shrub steals the election again, or is barely elected and it looks like it was fixed, there could be a mass uprisng, or there could be mass apathy. Its just very hard to say because the media will work with the government to keep the sheeple "fat n' happy" till after the election. Those of us who want to bring the facts out will have to work very very hard, and even then it will be dificult to get the message across.

If there is another attack (and I think this is most likely) it will cause a lot of the population to go into a fear frenzy. Anyone not agreeing with the administration will be seen as "unpatriotic" and the democrats will probably founder as they struggle to oppose the neocons without looking like the oposition. (an oxymoron) The elections could go on as schedualed , or shrub could declare that there is too much terra to hold the election. I hate to be pessimistic, but I don't see the democrats challenging the neocons in this case.

The best we can hope if for Kerry to win by a good margin. The neocons will go and regroup for the next election. Then, Kerry will have to get people that are respected not only by Americans, but by the world to start repairing the damage done by our government. He will have to call on people like Jimmy Carter, who is known as an honest and straight forward person the world over. The United States must learn to work with the rest of the world to help solve our basic problems.

[Iceburg]

67. One Canadian Perspective

We love Americans because ...
http://media.cbc.ca:8080/ramgen/radio/programs/thismorning/audio/tm_mercer010330.rm

they are kind, generous and keep our comedians employed.

The famous "Bush gives accolades to Canadian Prime Minister Poutine" is at 11:40 on the sound clip above.

[mmonk]

73. Actually, a lot of the dialogue on this thread

(especially the arguments part) isn't really helpful. Everybody brings their own views, own jingoism, etc. to the argument. The truth is, though the US has made many mistakes in the past and many imperial type moves, the current situation is more flagrant and more of a problem. There is a deeper problem now with some fundamental breakdowns in the system that makes this unique. We all have a problem on our hands.

[supercrash]

74. Well...

Look at how many Americans supported the unjust war in Iraq before it started

Wasn't it around 75%

They are guilty of putting me in danger with their radical views, and I will not shed a tear when the next terror attack hits the US, we will reap what we sow

Americans will learn that they cannot kidnapp elected leaders, they cannot invaded countries based on lies

[mmonk]

75. Many of them have to see the truth first

Because of the poor media and political rhetoric, those that supported the action in their minds are responding to a horrible attack on their country (just misguidedly, because of the current administration). Collective guilt is misguided in either case. we need to solve the problem.

[No2W2004]

79. Hi Supercrash & mmonk

The unfortunate facts are that the administration started selling the idea Iraq supported Al Queda shortly after 9/11. There are some of us that are just "sheeple", satisfied to blindly follow what ever drek the neocon's spew. There were some of us that weren't interested in finding out the truth for themselves. There were some of us who saw a chance to profit by invading Iraq and help the administration propigate it's lies. Then there's some of us who didn't buy it on it's face becasue it makes no common sense for Saddam to band together with people he feared more than the US. Look up the speeches made on the Senate floor by Senator Robert Byrd. He elequently expresses what all of us here on DU knew about our administration's falsehoods.

mmonk is right in a way...if Shrub and his masters get elected, or are allowed to steal it again, and then we allow it to stand, then we are doing a major disservice to the rest of the planet.

I for one, will work to see that doesn't happen.

[iangb]

78. Apathetic and naive.

How else can we perceive a people who buy the simplistic drivel being promulgated by their leaders with the enthusiastic support of the media?

I know that judgement doesn't apply to all Americans.........just a few tens of millions is all.

If there were to be some sort of mass migration of Americans .....I'd be suggesting we (and other nations) lock 'em out.
Why?
Just think about the international stance of a USA with no countervailing influence from moderates and liberals to restrain it.
If you guys find your Government a bit scary it's nothing to how it's seen in the rest of the world........quite frankly it scares the shit out of me.

[No2W2004]

80. Scary?

Damn right it's scary....for the first time, we are facing the extermination of our basic right to exist...to think and speak for ourselves. It's very clear that the neocons are not going to give up power unless they face mass uprising. There will be another "terror" attack designed to pump shrub up in the polls. If it doesn't work, he declares marshal law and cancels the election. If the majority of citizens go along with this, and don't protest or rise up, even after all the evils purpotrated in our names, then the United States will cease to exist. It will become the world's 800 pound gorilla, bent on consolodating all the planets resources and wealth.

Dog help us all.

[No2W2004]

85. a cause for hope

See this?



NO ONE in this picture is going to vote for shrub.

It's a picture of over one million women gathered in Washington DC to stand up for their rights.

[BonjourUSA]

83. Do you believe Bush is the lonely root of the US issue ?

If your answer is yes : vote and fire him.

If you can still do that, you're always in a democracy and stay in.

But I think the USA are on the soapy slope, they can't stop their imperial behaviour and Bush is only a caricature of that. I'm afraid, for instance, the gap between the USA and Europe will be more and more large just because we lost our common interests and we will be more and more competitors.

[arcos]

86. I totally agree...

Imperialism has been building up in the US for decades, now it just got bigger and more blatant.