Withholding communion from politicians who support death penalty?

[cheezus]

How about those who support sex ed in which they talk about birth control?

What do we do when the fundie churches start threating any politician who is for freedom of religion? After all, their doctrine says anyone who doesn't accept jesus won't be saved.

Maybe this is the time for Kerry to step up to the plate and take this head on. Use this to show how he's going to ask jesus for strength to stand up for his convictions, and how he's not going to let the United States be pushed around by the Vatican.

[kiahzero]

1. Just as wrong and possibly bad for the church as the threat against Kerry

Using Church services as partisan weapons is a quick way to get the IRS looking into whether or not you deserve tax exemption.

[sus]

4. let's hope so.

i'd like to see them lose their tax exemption status.

[Muddleoftheroad]

14. Why?

Because they expect members to not openly disagree with their teachings?

[w13rd0]

15. Yes, absolutely...

...there's no reason that they should be tax exempt. If they choose to cross the line/the wall between state and church, they should pay their damn taxes.

[Muddleoftheroad]

18. There is EVERY reason they should be tax exempt

Again, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

No law seems pretty clear. You might not like the position they are taking, but they have EVERY right to do so.

[KittyWampus]

29. Their Enforcement Of Their OWN Positions Is Entirely Arbitrary

to the point it is obviously NOT based on the Church dogma.

If they disallow Kerry from Communion for being pro-abortion... then they should say and announce publically that they will do the same to any OTHER politician who is pro-death penalty or pro-Iraq Invasion.

If the Catholic Church choose to single out Democrats... then they step over the line.

Example, please cite where Catholic Church has singled out a moderate Republican who might be pro-abortion.

Or a Republican who is pro-death penalty?

[Muddleoftheroad]

31. On church dogma I thought the pope was infallible

So how can he be arbitrary?

Again, you are trying to tell a religion how it MUST act. That is a HUGE violation of the Constitution. How they do things is up to them.

[KittyWampus]

42. Arbitrary In That Only Kerry Has Been Singled Out For Being Pro-Abortion

where is the public denouncement of individual Republican politicians who support the death penalty?

Why aren't the Church Fathers making a point of denying politicians who are pro-Iraq Invasion Communion.

In addition, Why aren't Church Heirarchy making a point of denying ANYONE, regardless of their profession, Communion who is pro-abortion.

That they are not PROVES their direct interference in politics.

And Tax Exemption is based on the two remaining SEPERATE.

[Muddleoftheroad]

Why?

Why do they have to do these things? Perhaps they have disliked HIS public position more.

Why do they have to rank abortion, death penalty, Iraq and other things the same?

Again, many organizations are reluctant to fight a large group, so they pick one or a few individuals as targets because of their public stature. Ask Marth Stewart about that.

[KittyWampus]

52. Any Church's Tax Exempt Status Is NOT Inviolate

if they cross a line they can lose their tax exempt status.

Again, neither the Pope NOR Catholic dogma single out the profession of politician or A POLITICAL PARTY when talking about whether this or that is a mortal sin.

That some Church Fathers are doing so is crossing the line.

If the Church wants to condemn abortion and deny all those who approve it Communion let them do so.

But to single out one profession (politician), one political party and one politician in regards to abortion breaches the wall seperating Church and State.

And you have again pretty much proved my point, by bringing up Martha.

They pick one person who is a POLITICIAN who belongs to one out of two POLTICAL PARTIES. As such, they are trying to make a POLITICAL POINT.

They have thus crossed the line.

If they were interested in making a valid, theological point without simultaneously making a POLITCIAL point, they could have easily done so.

[Muddleoftheroad]

59. They have crossed no constitutional line

To me, the standard should be almost impossible to manage. I go back to the Congress making no law bit.

Actually, the pope can indeed single out a member of the church for special treatment if he considers that churchmember has done wrong and is harming the church. How that churchmember responds is up to the individual in question

No, the church does not have to say ALL pro-abortion folks do this or that. They can indeed pick someone -- Gallileo for instance -- to serve as their whipping boy to bring the others into line.

The government has done exactly the same thing with Martha Stewart. She is being prosecuted to force others to behave better. This is common.

They have made a valid theological point. Public figures should not publicly disagree with church teachings. They do so at risk to their status in the church.

[cheezus]

39. right. so why is there a law exempting them from taxes?

[Muddleoftheroad]

40. The reverse

The power to tax is the power to destroy and that is expressly forbidden.

[cheezus]

43. oh, so I can claim to be a church

and am therefore outside the power of the law?

give me a freakin break.

All Bill Gates has to do, under your logic, is say that the computer is is God, Windows is the savior, Microsoft is a church. Then he can pump his billions of dollars into destroying the bush and kerry campaigns and getting paul allen elected president.

Oh yeah, and anyone who doens't agree with him doens't get to use Word or Powerpoint (excel is still okay for the heathens)

[Muddleoftheroad]

47. It's not quite that easy

Although Gates has the money to start a church if he wished. The Catholic Church, however, has about 2,000 years on him in that regard.

[Maat]

57. They should lose their tax exempt status.

The Constitution does not demand that I subsidize religion (and that is what tax exempt status means to me). In fact, now that I think about the last ga-zillion cases I read -- it says that we are not to promote religion (that is how establishment has been interpreted by justice after justice). Remember, guaranteeing that you are able to practice your religion does not mean that I have to pay for it - especially political proselytizing.

[stopthegop]

2. "anyone who doesn't accept jesus won't be saved"

pretty much the R Catholic position also...many, many religions are exclusive that way.

[kiahzero]

6. To wit, the only religions with that concept are:

Christianity and Islam. From my (admittedly hobby-ish) study of world religions, these are the only two I've noticed with the concept of being the "One True Faith."

I'd blame it on them being Abrahamic, but Judaism isn't that way, so I don't know what accounts for it.

[cheezus]

12. yeah, but the fundies actually BELIEVE it

most mainstream christians don't, do they?

[stopthegop]

16. only if they belive the words of Jesus from the Bible. eom

[Cleita]

3. Death penalty is a guy thing. Abortion is a gal thing.

When men want to kill a full grown human being it is justice. When women want to kill a mass of human cells that isn't a person it is murder. Go figure.:eyes:

[cheezus]

13. the catholics are consistant on this tho

no killing means no killing

[Cleita]

51. Catholics have no problem killing a lot of things.

I remember the mice exterminations in Catholic boarding school, not to mention the lesser creatures that buzzed around. So it isn't life that is sacred to Catholics. What is it then that is sacred, human life?.

[lastknowngood]

5. I propose the elimination of tax exempt status for any religious

group who makes direct political proclamations. Oh that's already the law why the hell don't they enforce it. You watch the Vatican change it's tune when it might loose money. There nothing but money grubbing Nazi loving little boy molesting sexually suppressed freaks.
There I said it now I feel better.

[GainesT1958]

9. Just for them saying this about Kerry...

I may have to wear ORANGE next St. Patrick's Day!:eyes:

B-)

[Muddleoftheroad]

11. Everything is political

Politicians are public figures. If they are seen as publicly disagree with the teachings of the church they belong to then they are subject to discipline within that church.

[Maat]

7. I think that Kerry needs to take several issues head-on.

I agree with you. First of all, if they want to be extremists, then their big-name and big-money Democratic supporters need to leave the Church. They will be welcome at one of the more inclusive, liberal churches.

Second-of-all, and this is somewhat off-topic, Kerry needs to take on those disparaging his war-related activities head-on. Instead of saying that he used 'excessive' language when he testified at the Vietnam hearings, he needs to say he was dramatic and passionate, based upon his own experience.

Comments?

[GainesT1958]

8. O'Connor did this in 1984...

Against Geraldine Ferraro (also re. abortion). I'm getting a little tired of these Western Allatollahs preaching their doctrine of hate against whomever it suits them at the time!:mad:

Kerry should NAIL them on this...it puts them in the same league with Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell!x(

B-)

[Muddleoftheroad]

10. Congress shall make NO law

People have a right to practice their religion. If you don't like it, don't join or belong.

[w13rd0]

17. We're thankful you are here to give us...

...the perspective of the right. If the church doesn't want to be taxed, then they should step the fuck off. PERIOD.

[Muddleoftheroad]

20. It is not politics to expect public figures in the church to obey

And if they don't, it is not unfair to expect them to be punished.

That is right, but not THE right. Freedom of religion, like freedom of speech, is essential in our society.

No on is forcing Kerry or others to stay Catholic.

[w13rd0]

Not when the "principles" are applied unfairly for clearly partisan...

...advantage. Where are the cardinals telling priests they must refuse communion to Catholics that get divorced, or support the death penalty, or don't clothe the poor, house the homeless and feed the hungry? Screw that shit. Take away their tax-exempt status, we need the money to balance the budget anyway. And if the church doesn't like it, they can get the fuck out.

[Muddleoftheroad]

27. "Get the fuck out" of where?

Do you now propose kicking the Catholic Church out of the U.S.? Wow, a religious pogrom right here on DU.

I'm at a loss...

As for the rest, how the cardinals and pope run their church is pretty much up to them. What they tell their people and what they don't, also up to them.

[KittyWampus]

53. It IS Politics When The Church Singles Out A DEMOCRAT To Punish

and a POLITICIAN to use as an example.

If they speak out about Kerry then it's also "fair" to expect the Church to speak out against individual pro-life Republican politicians as well.

[Pithlet]

56. It becomes politics when they pick and choose

the issues and who they punish.

[Muddleoftheroad]

63. They pick and choose issues as is their right

What they consider important is up to them.

[girl gone mad]

19. Churches weren't..

tax exempt until long after the constitution was adopted.

[Muddleoftheroad]

21. They are now

To target one because you don't like their teachings is beneath contempt.

[cheezus]

41. nobody is targeting the church. tax exempt status is a civil issue

that is dependant on tax exempt organizations not having affiliation with political parties or canidates.

Same goes for nonprofits as churches.

[Muddleoftheroad]

48. No, it's a constitutional issue

Remember that thing? "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

[wuushew]

22. That is side-stepping the issue..which is hypocrasy

Does the Vatican rank sins? If it doesn't it needs to shut up because the when it speaks it has a biased and unfavorable secular effect on politics.

[Muddleoftheroad]

24. There is no law against hypocrisy

Hell, if there were, most of us would be in jail for something or another.

But how the Vatican ranks sins can change daily for all I care, as long as no one tries to make them rank them a certain way.

[kiahzero]

23. Fine

Let's get rid of tax exemption for churches then - such an exemption clearly violates the first and second prongs of the Lemon test (must have secular purpose, mustn't advance or inhibit religion).

A church becomes political at its peril... the IRS can decide that it no longer qualifies for tax exempt status... I want to say its a 501(c)(3), but that might be wrong, since it's off the top of my head.

[Muddleoftheroad]

25. Good luck on that one

You won't succeed, so there is little point arguing it.

Churches do tons of good in our society from feeding the hungry to teaching children to counseling troubled souls. I will never understand the antipathy toward religion here.

[w13rd0]

30. The leadership of the Methodist church, of which....

...Dubya is a member, condemned the Iraqi invasion. It's not antipathy for "the church", it's a strong reaction to a cardinal selectively applying church doctrine for political/partisan purposes. Fine, let's just take away HIS tax-exempt status. Will you now please quit thrashing around acting like you are so unfairly persecuted?

[Muddleoftheroad]

33. Hell, I'm not even Catholic

But if you can interfere with this, then Republicans can sure as hell interfere in black churches across the U.S. for their actions.

And both groups would be violating the Constitution.

[kiahzero]

37. There's little point in arguing that the law should be followed?

It doesn't matter how much "good" a church does.

Title 26, Subtitle A, Chapter I, Subchapter F, Part I, 501(c)(3):

Corporations, and any community chest, fund, or foundation, organized and operated exclusively for religious, charitable, scientific, testing for public safety, literary, or educational purposes, or to foster national or international amateur sports competition (but only if no part of its activities involve the provision of athletic facilities or equipment), or for the prevention of cruelty to children or animals, no part of the net earnings of which inures to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual, no substantial part of the activities of which is carrying on propaganda, or otherwise attempting, to influence legislation (except as otherwise provided in subsection (h)), and which does not participate in, or intervene in (including the publishing or distributing of statements), any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for public office.

If it were determined that the Church refusing Communion to Kerry was solely a political decision, that could easily be determined as violating the conditions for being a tax-exempt entity.

I fail to see how pointing out that a Church corrupting a serious, spiritual ritual with the temporal affairs of politics is "antipathy toward religion."

[Muddleoftheroad]

38. It's a religious decision

Public figures represent the church. He is misrepresenting the teachings of the church so they could choose to make an example out of him.

He can always quit.

[KittyWampus]

54. Well, There Are Republican Public Figures Who Also Represent

the Church who misrepresent their teachings.

In singling out ONE Person from ONE party... they cross the line.

[Muddleoftheroad]

60. No, they singled out one person

If they had singled out a Republican, they would be screaming about it. Such is life. They are not obligated to choose a representative sampling from the appropriate political parties.

[Supormom]

26. Didn't the Pope condemn the war in Iraq?

How about refusing communion to every Catholic politician who voted for the war? How many repukes would be refused?

[Muddleoftheroad]

28. A bunch

And if they choose to do that, it is their choice.

Perhaps refusing communion to folks like Kerry who voted for it.

In any case, it is THEIR religion.

[Maat]

58. Muddleoftheroad -- take a Constitutional Law class!

There is no obligation on the part of the taxpayers to subsidize a church or congregation or religious organization!!!!! Subsidizing or not subsidizing (via the award or nonaward of tax exempt status) has absolutely nothing to do with prohibiting the free exercise of religion. Remember, the Court defers to Congress because they have the Taxing and Spending Power. They merely have to have a rational reason for any tax rule they make -- and they have always satisfied that test. The Constitution and its related docs and case law merely require that you be allowed to practice your faith on your own nickel. And by the way, Congress and the States may prohibit any particular conduct, even if some belief the conduct in question is religious -- if it has an important purpose for doing so. Read the Peyote Case.

[Muddleoftheroad]

62. LOL

Actually, taxing churches is indeed an interference in the operation of the church -- one forbidden by the Constitution.

The ability to tax is the ability to force churches to do as you say. Shut up or we will increase your taxes. Be silent or we will drain you dry.

Congress shall make no law. Not, Congress shall only make a few laws that meet your test for "rational" taxation.

Yes, no rights are absolute. The law must show an abiding reason why it must interfere in the free exercise of religion. There is no such reason here.

If Kerry wishes, he can quit the church tomorrow. Perhaps that would even gain him votes.

[w13rd0]

32. Isn't that vile puke Santorum the dog-fucker...

...a Catholic? He should definately be refused communion...and get his ass kicked.

[Muddleoftheroad]

34. Isn't that up to the church, not you?

[stopthegop]

45. done with your reasoned commentary for the week are we?eom

[KamaAina]

35. This is the same Catholic Church that forced Fr. Drinan out of Congress

Father Robert Drinan was a liberal Democratic rep from Mass. in the '60s and/or '70s. Then the Church hierarchy stepped in and told him that priests were not to be involved in politics, and so not to run for re-election.

Fast forward to present-day Mass.: Priests are now being ordered to get involved in politics. Go figure.

[Muddleoftheroad]

36. Is abortion politics or belief?

I think they would argue it is the latter.

[KamaAina]

44. If it were a matter of belief rather than politics...

...they would be denying Communion to ALL Catholics who support abortion rights -- which would save them a pretty penny on wafers, as that is about one-half of all U.S. Catholics.

As it is, they are singling out Kerry because he is a politician.

[Muddleoftheroad]

49. Are you the pope? A cardinal perhaps?

Then how the Catholic Church deals with its member is up to them, not you.

Kerry is a well-known member of their church, publicly taking on their stance and disagreeing. That invites response.

[KamaAina]

50. I'm not even Catholic any longer. This helps to explain why.

I do not presume to tell the Church what it may or may not do. I merely point out the hypocrisy involved in reserving this harsh treatment solely for Sen. Kerry (and any other Catholic politicians who may dare to speak their minds).

[KittyWampus]

55. Well, There Are Well Known Pro-Abortion Republican Politicians

and the Church isn't taking them on.

Furthermore, Kerry is NOT publicly taking on the Church's stance or personally disagreeing.

He is an elected representative CARRYING OUT THE LAW OF THE LAND.

[Muddleoftheroad]

61. Those well known pro-Choice politicians

Are any of them running for president? Any of them THAT MUCH in the public eye thumbing their nose at the church? Nope.

The church is not interfering with Kerry's ability to carry out any law. They are merely saying that he must toe the line of his religion or be disciplined. Many religions treat their members that way. It is their right to do so.

[Lefty48197]

46. I like the idea

The Republicans always pull this crap with Catholic Democratic politicians. They always start talking about excommunicating the Democrat. Your question should be directed to the individuals in the church that respond to the right wingers. They should be asked why Pro Death Penalty politicians aren't being denied communion.