Withholding Communion by the Catholic Church from

[Cleita]

politicians who are Democrats, Greens or any other shade of liberal is discrimination against a large segment of the population. If a politician believes in liberal principles, he will join the party that most upholds those principles. To excommunicate anyone because of his political affiliation means the Church is trying to rule in our country. The Italians don't let them. The Irish don't let them. The French don't let them. These countries' inhabitants are predominantly Catholic.

We shouldn't allow this to happen here either.

[stepnw1f]

1. Outraged Catholics Should Boycott Catholicism

[noahmijo]

11. Does that mean Muslims should boycott Islam?

The religion isn't the culprit, the jerks who THINK they speak for the religion to fulfill their own agendas should be the ones who are boycotted, not the entire religion.

I'll never boycott or abandon the Catholic religion, but I won't let other humans who believe they are better than others to speak for my beliefs.

Most Catholics are pro-choice because we understand that being pro-choice is the only way to ensure that back alley abortions and mothers being forced to care for children after their rat bastard fathers walk out on them are left at a mininum. We understanding that forcing women to bear children of rapists is hardly what God would call for us to do.

[stepnw1f]

14. Good Point

Then why don't they?

[noahmijo]

19. Put simple because

You have scumbags in ANY group, and in every race. Unfortunately it's generally the scumbags you always hear about.

For every pedophile priest or every priest that believes in denying Kerry's right to communion, there are many others who would not deny him this right and who would choose death over dishonoring a child.

Communion is taken to absolve ourselves of sins. You take it after having either confessed or in extreme cases if you've sinned and in your heart you are truly sorry. Forgiveness is granted.

Communion is NOT something that you deny a person for refusing to impose laws which can be harmful to women or any other group.

The media's not interested in reporting about the good Catholics, Muslims, Jews, ect cause quite simply they're no fun they're boring. Spotlighting a loudmouth priest from Boston who believes in denying Kerry his right Communion is much more fun and interesting to Joe Public.

[stepnw1f]

23. BTW - Welcome to DU

[noahmijo]

30. Thanks I've been here for a little while

But I always look forward to new friends and people to talk to.

BTW I'm not a religious nut or anything, honestly I haven't been to church in ages, these people who go after Kerry funnily enough care more about guys like him, then people like me whom do to college hardly get a moment to go to church.

I just take it a little personal when people have to attack the Catholic church everytime some degenerate priest has to act up. I mean we say it's wrong to do that to Muslims, yet everyone seems to keep silent whenever the media or anyone goes after Catholics. On the left this is the attitude we get, and on the RW side, we are degraded and insulted for "not being true Christians" Being Hispanic, being a Catholic is not just a religion it's a culture thing just like it is with Italians, Irish, and other Hispanics, so essentially I take it personal when people attack Catholics as a whole.

I personally support women's rights and gay marriage, because I don't believe in limiting another human being's rights regardless of what certain superiors in the church may believe. I see my religion as one of love not as way to seperate myself from other people.

[mitchtv]

36. Irish Catholic here-(culturally)

When they start spouting from the Vatican, its more than some Deginerate priest- The only freedom I believe they should be relieved of is the freedom from taxes, on second thought , maybe they should be required to register as agents of a foreign government. As for heretical sects saying we are less than Chrisstian , that's laughable.

[SharonAnn]

54. Yeah, we were Christians before being Christian was cool!

They just can't handle it.

[jakefrep]

102. As a liberal and a Catholic...

I am hacked off about playing politics with the Sacraments. This is the kind of nickel-and-dime BS that serves only to divide the lay population and drive people like us away from the Church.

Arcane rules dreamt up by underemployed Vatican bureaucrats shouldn't carry the same weight as the 10 Commandments.

[stepnw1f]

79. I Take It Personal When The Church Shits On People

n/t

[sandnsea]

15. We have to STAND UP

I don't even remember anymore, do pro-choice activists have a ribbon? I think we should all wear one of those ribbons and go to Mass. March right up to Communion, a whole line with ribbons on. And just see if the priest is going to stand there and say no, time after time.

[PassingFair]

62. Tiny Red Coat Hangers

as lapel pins.

[sandnsea]

64. At Mass??

That's a bit extreme, even for me. For the rest of the time though...

[HuskerDem]

53. Islam does not appoint one mortal as god's messenger on Earth.

Catholicism does. It also teaches that you are not "in THE Church" if you do not try to follow it's teachings. This call for excommunication is coming from the Vatican itself. If there were not so much other news about, I think this would be huge. But there is much other news and it's not as tasty and salacious as priests molesting little boys so we've heard little about it.

You don't have to be a Catholic to be a Christian. Catholics who are weary of being told that Rome knows better than they do should vote with their feet. Shop around. Somewhere out there is a church where your heart and soul can feel at home, and they won't ask you to check your God given reason at the door.

[SemperEadem]

98. Actually, the American Catholic Church needs to break

from the Roman Catholic church.

[Momof1]

2. Just wondering something....

Has the Catholic Church ever done this before? I think it is pretty disgusting.

And I am sure that this has absolutely nothing to do with "Faith Based" funding....

Bought & paid for by the * Administration.

[revcarol]

86. Divorced people didn't used to be able to take communion...

then that was changed to divorced remarried people...now that has changed to "take communion if you feel right with God and others"...

So there's definitely a history here.

But whether that will apply to "baby killers," as those who advocate for choice are called, is anyone's guess.

But then, using birth control methods other than rhythm used to be a mortal sin.

[DAGDA56]

3. Actually, I don't think ANY priest of any rank...

...is permitted to withold Communion from anyone! I think excommunication is another matter entirely, but if a person has not been officially excommunicated, then any priest refusing Communion to any Catholic is overstepping his authority. Just like Repub bastards to run with "not a good Catholic" rather than the "takes orders from the Vatican" they did against an earlier JFK...

[Cleita]

5. Look at the word excommunication.

It means you are no longer allowed to receive communion. Yes, there should be a big official edict on it by a Bishop. It will be curious to see how they will do this. The laity has a big say and should let the clergy know exactly how they feel about this.

[sandnsea]

16. That's exactly right

The Church is going against its own doctrine with this withholding communion nonsense.

[Bozita]

4. Why would the Vatican carry water for a 2nd Bush term?

That's the real question.

[DAGDA56]

7. I don't think it's the Vatican...JP II is no fan of Iraq War II...

but some of our domestic priests just can't see beyond the abortion issue...

[cheezus]

6. it's not about withholdinc communtion, it's about...

The church flexing their political muscle in a election year.

Although I don't know why the Vatican would want bush over Kerry....

[Cleita]

9. Inquiring minds want to know.

I doubt if the Vatican is involved, but since the Pope is the walking dead these days, some Cardinals and others might be feathering their nests. Soon a new Pope will be elected. Think about it. I can't imagine anything more stupid though than undermining a practicing Catholic politician.

[KittyWampus]

8. They Shouldn't Penalize Any Politician of ANY STRIPE

Left, Right or Middle.

They can activate around any Issue but when they target ONE PARTY or ONE POLITICIAN, they've gone over the line.

[Cleita]

10. That's for sure. It's the issue they should be targetting not

the politician because he happens to be......

[mouse7]

12. Meanwhile, child molester priests have no problems getting communion

Child molestation... fine.

Condom use... eternal damnation.

[Cleita]

34. True as long as they confess and admit they were wrong and

do the penance required of them, they can receive communion. The problem with the Kerry indictment is that he would have to admit it's wrong to be a Democrat, leave the party and then he would be able to receive communion.

So to be a Democrat, according to these right wing Catholics, means that you are no longer with the Church but against it.

You can see where these RWingers are going with this. I find it terribly dangerous. I find that it brands liberals the same as Jews and Gays in Nazi Germany. The Catholic Church in Germany were very much a part of the problem there.

[Sir Craig]

13. This may result in a flame, but I say "So what?"

I find it rather strange that anyone would object to the Catholic Church witholding communion from anyone that doesn't follow their strictest dogmas. It's not like being Catholic is a life-or-death situation: it is a matter of choice (just look in the Yellow Pages to see how many other options there are). If your religion is so overwhelmingly powerful a presence in your life, then you have to be ready to accept the "rules."

If it is so important for Kerry to maintain his Catholicism, it will be expected of him to adhere to its teachings. If this conflicts with his need to represent his constituents, then he needs to reflect on his need for dogma in the first place, and discover for himself which is more important.

There are no victims here. Just like the Boy Scouts can have their restrictions (and with the help of the ACLU I no longer have to have my tax money support their functions), churches are free to exercise their ceremonies free from outside influence (providing that they harm no one and are not state-sponsored).

This is exactly why it is so important to emphasize the maintained separation of church and state: I don't want religious dogma being forced upon me, and I certainly cannot demand that religious institutions adhere to my beliefs and principles. To do such amounts to the greatest level of hypocrisy, something that is best left to Repubs and their ilk.

Happily, being an atheist means you can truly follow your conscience.

[mouse7]

26. It's a mindfuck on those who were brought up depending on Church

This is most effective against those who were brought up in the Church and who have spent their life participating in the rituals of the Church. They get comfort from those rituals, and will suffer for their lack of participation in rituals they have been doing all their lives.

If religion was something only adults could participate in, you might have a point, Craig. However, it's the people who have been brought to mass since they were infants and have every phrase of the mass burned into their psyche that get most screwed up by it and the potential absence from their lives.

I converted from Catholicism to Buddhism years ago. I've been to Mass once since I was 16 (I'm 40 now). What was my first action upon finding out about 9/11? I crossed myself and said a Hail Mary. Same when Shock and Awe started. It's a reflex action. I'm as stubborn-minded as anyone on the face of the Earth, but it still slips through my defenses. Getting brought to mass every Sunday from birth through your school years does that to you. Kids brought up in a religious environment never leave it their entire lives, no matter how much they try to escape it.

So unless you're willing to find a way to prevent religious indoctrination of children, please keep your smug declarations of freedom to yourself. To the vast majority brought up in this society, it's a myth.

[PassingFair]

65. I totally disagree!

Stay smug! Stay sane! Keep your eyes open. Freedom from superstition is NOT a myth. It is an acceptance of the knowable. It IS freedom.

[KittyWampus]

35. But The Church Is Selectively Punishing One Person, One Profession

Indeed, one POLITICAL PARTY.

There are moderate pro-choice Republican Politicians.

Why aren't they used as an example?

[dsc]

47. If they were consistent then I wouldn't say boo

but they aren't and that is the problem. No death penalty loving politicians get communion withheld. No politicians which refuse to legislate the church's economic teachings get communion withheld. For that matter it seems on no other issue at all, even gay rights, does communion get withhled. To do so on only one issue makes Catholicism a single issue religion which it doesn't claim to be.

[KittyWampus]

49. Heck, No Pro-Choice REPUBLICANS Are Penalized

[Muddleoftheroad]

58. They targeted the most prominent pro-Choice candidate

So?

[dsc]

84. I am not entirely sure that is true

I am local to Tom Ridge and I recall there being a problem with him and his local bishop over this.

[MrSlayer]

17. The whole thing is stupid anyway. Ritualistic Cannibalism, woohoo!

It's a shame that leaders have to pretend to be religious.

[Cleita]

18. Oh, puleez. It's only cannibalism if you are actually eating

human flesh. Don't make things worse than they are. What has happened is the right wing Catholics, like the Opus Dei crowd, have found a red herring they can exploit.

[HuskerDem]

67. Wow, so now we're heading into ecumenism and Transubstantiation?

Frequently Asked Questions About Communion

Q. What do Catholics believe they are receiving when they come to Holy Communion?

A. We believe that we are receiving the very Body and Blood of Christ Himself. At the Last Supper Jesus said, "This is my body which is given for you" and offering His disciples the cup of wine said, "Drink from it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins." (See Luke 22 and Matthew 26). In the Gospel of John we read: "Jesus said to them, 'Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.'" (John 6:53-56)

Q. Are we still supposed to fast for one hour before receiving Communion?

A. Yes. Whoever is to receive the blessed Eucharist is to abstain for at least one hour before Holy Communion from all food and drink with the sole exception of water and medicine.

Q. Why do we fast?

A. We fast because it helps us to prepare for and appreciate the sacredness of such a great gift. Fasting reminds us of just what we are doing: receiving the very Body and Blood of Christ. Fasting for an hour helps us to set that time aside for the Lord, lest this very holy gift become common.

Q. Can non-Catholics receive Communion?

A. In ordinary circumstances, non-Catholics are not permitted to receive Holy Communion. The very action of receiving Communion says that we believe it is the Body and Blood of Christ and that we share in the whole life of the Catholic Church. Inviting non-Catholics (who do not hold to our same faith) to Communion can be an obstacle to one day reaching full communion by blurring the differences in belief among Christian denominations.

[PoliticalHoodlum]

20. The Catholic Church has every right to do this

The preservation of human life is at the core of Catholic Church teachings. If a politician actively promotes laws that go against this basic teaching, then yes, the politician should be denied church sacraments.

Religious conviction is WAY more important than politics. A politician may support abortion, but he cant do it AND expect to partcipate as a Catholic of good standing. You just can't have it both ways.

BTW, a Democrat who upheld his church's pro-life teaching would go very far politically, if party machinery allowed him to get far enough.

[RetroLounge]

21. Yes they do. and I have every right to say

f*ck the Catholic church and the pedophiles they rode in on.

RL

[PoliticalHoodlum]

24. Pedophiles violated their church vows--went their own way

Where on earth do you get the idea that the homosexuals who molested children were adhering to church law? Individuals acted on their own. Can you name any organization that doesn't have a few bad apples? How dare you indict a whole religion for the acts of a few.
What do you think would be the reaction here if I said the Muslim faith is worthless because of the 9-11 attackers? It'd be pretty unfair, wouldn't it?

[PsN2Wind]

41. Randy devils

Seems those"few bad apples" have sure screwed a helluva lot of young boys.

[Don Claybrook]

93. It's systemic...they've raped little boys in every diocese in the nation

How dare I, huh? You go live by the words of the rapists and coverup-artist superiors.

But if you're trying to convince me that US politicians should toe the Vatican's line AND at the same time you're trying to convince me that I should overlook their little pedophelia problem, well, you'd probably have more luck getting me to vote for Bush.

[Cleita]

22. This has nothing to do with preservation of human life.

Many liberal Catholics are anti-abortion, but also know that the conservative males have no interest in preserving life. Their war mongering speaks volumes on this issue. Political choice has nothing to do with personal beliefs.

[ret5hd]

28. so then, logically...

the catholic church should be imposing the same sanctions on those catholic politicians that support the death penalty. right?

[Cleita]

31. Wrong. They shouldn't be sanctioning anyone, politically.

They are supposed to take care of the spiritual, not the temporal.

[Muddleoftheroad]

60. Abortion is a spiritual issue

Publicly defying the church stance is also.

[Cleita]

66. This issue isn't about abortion as much as many are trying to

make it so. It's about shutting up liberals and making them seem illigitimate and immoral. The Nazis did it in Germany and look at what reverence they had for human life. Wake up and smell the facism. This is no longer about conservatism, but jackboots coming to a street near you.

[Muddleoftheroad]

80. They are shutting up church malcontents

That they have every right to do.

[Cleita]

90. I guess the malcontents have every right then to join

another Church and take their money with them. Good luck to those medieval, old men.

[PoliticalHoodlum]

39. Abortion is a different issue

With the death penalty, there is at least the idea that it is done to protect society from a dangerous person. It is sort of the same concept as wars which are conducted in self-defense. There is some gray area there.
But abortion is far more cut and dried because a harmless child poses no threat to society. Killing it is simply murder. No possible 'societal defense' argument.

[Cleita]

63. Then the burden of proof is on you.

When does a mass of cells with no more development than jelly fish and unable to survive without a human host become an innocent child?

[HuskerDem]

75. Perhaps a different issue for you but OFFICIALLY not so for the Vatican

You may choose to rationalize being pro-developed human death.............

while being anti- smushy splug removal.............

But your position then would make you a bad Catholic by the kindest of descriptions. You cannot support the death penalty and be a good Catholic.

[alcuno]

32. I am a Catholic and it is wrong to withhold communion. I am also pro-life

Communion is a sacrament of the Church and can be taken by any Catholic who, in good conscience, believes he/she is eligible to do so. It is a personal act we enter into with God, not with the Church.

When I say that I am pro-life, I mean that I believe that any life within my body begins at conception. However, I can accept that others don't agree with me. Therefore, I have found peace in having my own beliefs and do not believe that the law should be changed.

There are some in the Church hierarchy who want to use communion as a punishment. Other than the fact that this violates the spirit of communion, the Church should not act with hypocrisy. There is no difference between those who legislate and those who don't. The Church can't be inconsistent by holding some Catholics to a different standard than others. The Church, under this line of thinking, should withhold communion from me and millions of others.

There is no such thing as a Catholic in good-standing; it's always considered a personal decision unless one has been excommunicated. This is a highly rare occurence since the Church's mission is to be inclusive rather than exclusive. The term "Catholic" even means "universal."

I am very tired of reading statements by those who have little or no understanding of Catholicism trying to promote their political agenda.

[DAGDA56]

44. I too am a Catholic,and pro life...

...we just have a difference of opinion as to when that life begins. I go with the old fasioned idea of birth being the start of life, rather than conception. That makes me anti death penalty and anti war. Perhaps neither of us are scientists (I know I am not, but you may be.) The fact is, that there are many of us that find some of the more inflexible teachings of current Church Docterine to be in conflict with our God given beliefs. We must agree to disagree.

[alcuno]

48. And that's okay.

As Catholics, we should be finding the things on which we agree. I think that we do. I can totally accept, not that you need it, your belief about when life begins. Catholics agree on the basic tenants of our faith. It's these other areas where I don't think we have to agree.

[PoliticalHoodlum]

46. There really should be a distinction between a politician vs others.

You say receiving Holy Communion should be a personal matter that should be left for the person to decide. For the non-legislator, it is impossible to know what his private thoughts are, so we take the person at face value....But for a politician who publicly makes known his pro-abortion stance, that veil of privacy has been removed. Therefore it becomes very hard for that person to say he is receiving Communion with his mind in harmony with the church's teaching.

As for a 'political agenda', I would say the Pope who speaks for the church on abortion, has no political agenda as we know it. You cant really say he is pushing a right-wing agenda. His environmental, anti-war, and pro-worker statements make him more a liberal than conservative for the most part.

[alcuno]

50. I have to totally disagree with you.

The Church has always taught that sin was the deciding factor in one's ability to take communion. And the concept of sin has always been one of what is in your heart. In other words, if the Catholic taking communion believes in their heart that there is no impediment, there isn't one. End of story. It has absolutely no relevance in Church teaching WHAT anyone else might think or believe. If you believe there is no sin, there isn't any. On that there is no dispute within the Church.

I'll repeat myself since I do not think the Pope has a right-wing agenda and I never said that he did. The Holy Father makes his appeal to us as Catholics; he is not appealing to everyone out there. He is asking that Catholic women and families look to their own hearts, not to the law.

[PoliticalHoodlum]

52. I don't understand how you can publicly express an idea

that is clearly antithetical to the teachings of the Church of whose sacraments you partake......while having the opposite thought in your heart at Communion time. It doesn't make sense.

[alcuno]

57. I guess that your question is is an idea a sin?

The question of whether a sin is an idea or an action is a good one. In the matter of abortion, would the sin lie with the person who believes that abortion should be legal or the person who has the abortion. I believe that abortion should be legal; that it is a matter for the individual not the law. I guess it all depends on what is in your heart. And in the Church, sin has always been a personal decision. The Church goes so far as to say that if a person commits murder and does not believe in their heart that they have sinned, then they haven't. I know it's hard to believe and I know we see at as a break in the Commandments, but you know it's Church teaching.

[HuskerDem]

77. You don't understand what you are guilty of?

You supported the DEATH penalty. Under your own standards you should refrain from communion - or it should be denied you.

[PoliticalHoodlum]

85. I never said I supported the death penalty. I do not.

All I said was it is more ambiguous than abortion--not nearly as cut and dried. Just like war.

[mouse7]

33. Only if they keep children from participation in Mass

Religion is indoctrinated into kids to try and ensure their life-long participation. If churches will stop indoctrinating kids and become an adults-only activity, then they have the rights to do whatever they want. However, if they are going to be allowed to brainwash kids into dependence upon a religious institution, then they need to be held to social standards.

[KittyWampus]

40. No, The Church May NOT Engage In Politics

why is it so hard to understand that the Catholic Church may NOT actively play partisan politics and denounce politicians of only ONE party while remaining silent about offenders in the other?

[PoliticalHoodlum]

59. The Church is upholding one of it's ket tenets.

It is indifferent about political parties.

[dawn]

73. ReallY?

I don't see the Pope denouncing fanatical pro-war RW politicians for their anti-life agendas.

[dawn]

71. Really?

What about the hordes of pro-choice women (and men)? I know I'd drop the Democratic party like a hot potato if they were going to try to make wombs government property.

People should leave their religious views out of politics, when it comes to taking rights away from 51% of the population.

(and BTW, you can be pro-life and pro-choice.)

[PoliticalHoodlum]

87. It isn't the womb, it's the child

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the abortion debate isn't about you. It's about the life of the child. The government absolutely has the right...and the duty....to protect human life.

And saying you are both pro-life and pro-choice is like saying you personally oppose rape, but it's OK if others do it. Pretty ridiculous, isn't it?

[HuskerDem]

74. Pro-death rupukes like Shrub and others should be damned by the church

because they support the act of Murder by a State. Much like the murder of Jesus. The church just can't have it both ways either.

Jesus was the first great leader to understand the seperation of church and state. "Give unto Ceasar that which Ceaser's - and give unto God that which is God's"

[dsc]

89. What about the death penalty?

I have literally never heard of a politician, no matter how bloodthirsty in support of the death penalty, being denied communion on those grounds. Two examples. Bob Martinez of Florida not only supported the death penalty but centered his reelection campaign on having signed over a hundred death warrents. His bishop had no problems giving him communion. The very same bishop moved to New York and refused Mario Cuomo communion on the grounds of abortion. This is the same Cuomo who refused to sign permit the death penalty. Now we have Pataki in New York, who is governor today due to campaigning on the death penalty. He gets communion. Are some lives more human than others?

[More Than A Feeling]

96. From what I have heard...

George W. Bush's position on this that he supports abortion in cases of rape, incest or to protect the life of the mother. What prominent Democrats share this position, and what are the chances of such a Democrat getting elected?

[mitchtv]

97. An Anti-choice Dem would go NOWHERE

DIS obeying the church's political desires is not a sin either. Render unto Caesar... It is a sin to have an abortion, maybe, but not to interfere with other's civil rights- to do so would be a sin , IMO. In any event it was not said ex cathedra hence, no weight attached it is a cardinals opinion , a foreign cardinal at that.

[Quetzal]

25. Could it be that

there is a Republican/Rabidly pro-life faction within the Church heirarchy that is pushing for this. Opus Dei? Santoum Catholics?

[Cleita]

27. It is, but saner Catholics have to stop them in their tracks.

Seriously.

[PoliticalHoodlum]

29. The pope is "rabidly pro-life", but I don't think you could call him a

Republican. No. It isn't a 'faction' that is speaking for the Church. It is the Holy Father.

[alcuno]

37. The fact that the Pope is pro-life has nothing to do w/ laws in the U.S.

As a matter of fact, the only nation that I can think of that has a ban on the practice of abortion is Ireland.

The Pope is trying to appeal to the conscience of Catholics throughout the world. That means that he is appealing to Catholic women and Catholic families to refrain from abortions. I don't think the Holy Father sees this as a political argument.

[KittyWampus]

42. Where Did The Pope Direct The Church To Single Out John Kerry

or Democrats?

Where did he say it is appropriate to use Communion as a POLITICAL weapon?

[Kat45]

45. It wasn't the Pope that said it. It was a cardinal high up in the Vatican.

Papal infallibility is not involved here.

[SharonAnn]

55. Yes, Vatican is now full of Opus Dei guys and Cardinal Ratzinger

is very pro Opus Dei.

The Catholic Church has retreated in fundamentalism, patriarchy, and ignorance.

[Liberal Gramma]

38. Pro-Choice/Pro-Life is a Personal Decision

and does not intersect with a politician's responsibility to uphold the constitutional rights of citizens who are NOT of his/her faith. If John Kerry actively took part in the obtaining of an abortion, he might be in conflict with his church; by supporting the right of OTHERS to choose, he is fulfilling his oath as a politician.

[mitchtv]

51. My point exactly... BTW welcome

Liberal Gramma. Not interfering with another's ability to commit a'sin'is not a sin.It seems basic to me.

[Muddleoftheroad]

61. By publicly disagreeing with his church

He is subjecting himself to THEIR rules.

[Cleita]

69. Kerry is publicly disagreeing with his Church by being a

registered Democrat? That statement worries me a lot. Their rules are spiritual and have nothing to do with the temporal world and demonizing a whole political party because they aren't in lockstep with medieval minds is horrible to contemplate. Who will be next? Republicans who want to dance and have a beer on Sunday?

[Muddleoftheroad]

81. Nope, on his abortion stance

Not his party of choice.

[Kat45]

43. The church spokesman in Boston said that they don't

withhold communion, but assume that the individual Catholic will not partake if he shouldn't. In other words, they're not supposed to take it upon themselves to refuse communion to anyone, it's between the individual and God, and the individual should know if he should not partake and should act accordingly.

If the Catholic church were to withhold communion from anyone not living in accordance with Catholic beliefs, then they would have to withhold it from anybody who has been divorced (and remarried). And I highly doubt that they do that.

[LibDemAlways]

56. A little off topic but worth noting here --

While perusing the website that lists political contributions, I found a nice $200.00 donation given to the Dean campaign by the pastor of a Catholic Church in Houston. He is clearly one clergyman who looks beyond the abortion issue to the larger picture.

Any member of the Catholic clergy who makes a stink about withholding communion from anyone is only succeding in making an ass out of himself. The average Catholic (and I'm a lifelong one) sees this grandstanding for what it is and ignores it.

[hedgehog]

68. Catholic means "here comes everybody"

The essential teachings of the Church are all in the Creed -
everything else is up for grabs. Is anyone here leaving
America because you don't believe everything the President
says? Why should I  (or John Kerry) leave our Church over what
some right winger says? I'm fighting to get both my Church and
country back. 

[alcuno]

70. Welcome to DU, hedgehog.

What a terrific first post!

[hedgehog]

72. Democrats are the pro-life party

Ono Ekeh explains it better that I can, and he lost his job defending this proposition. I don't know how to post the link, but his article is at the NAtional Catholic Reporter on line NCRonline.org

[GoldenOldie]

78. Absolute religious control?????????

Having had the opportunity of partaking of both the Protestant and Catholic faiths.......Mother confirmed Catholic, Father ??????, Children...Catholics, myself...Methodist, spouse ...believing their is someone greater than ourselves, yet, each believing in all faiths, dependent upon the Priest/Minister. Father became Catholic upon death of spouse. I have discovered that it has been the individual Priest or Minister that has had the most influence upon both myself, my children, and my father and mother. It has been how they the Priest, Minister, etc, have conducted themselves that have the most affect on all of us. The Priest that held the services for my Mother's funeral, opened up the communion to all....with the comment that God did not deliniate between anyone and in his name all should partake. Those that are so insistant that their's is the only way to God, better wake-up and smell the coffee. We all come from the experiences that we have had and they differ in the millions. Priests and Ministers vary from parish to parish, from State to State and from Country to Country.

[BrewerJohn]

76. Here's the deal

The church has the right to tell its communicants what their personal moral positions must be. (If the communicants don't agree, then they conversely have the right to dispute it internally, in my opinion.) It does not have the right to tell them what they must advocate as public policy. If the church crosses this line, then it becomes just another political party and deserves no more respect than any other such.

It seems that certain personages in the RCC are trying to edge the church towards making the transition to being a political party. If said church wants to continue being taken at all seriously, they need to cut it out, right quick.

[mmonk]

82. For you who are not Catholic

why do you give a crap or get so wrapped up in this? Kerry doesn't write the laws of the US nor issue legal precedence nor be able to. Judges in the court system determine that.

[mmonk]

83. My thoughts are

if there was indication pro choice Catholic politicians in congress were showing indications they were changing their views politically, then you could worry. In the meantime, the damage to abortion rights is being waged by fundamentalist protestants, particularly judicial appointments, and in state legislatures. This is just taking people's eyes off the ball.

[spanone]

88. As if the catholic church has a moral high ground? give me a break

[moondust]

91. Catholic church will continue to shrink.

As if the child molestation scandals weren't enough, I'd guess that even more will leave in favor of a denomination that holds similar beliefs but is more tolerant.

[goclark]

92. Glass Houses

People or churches that live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones!

[moondust]

95. That would seem to be the lesson. n/t

[kskiska]

94. Why was this never an issue with Rudy Giuliani?

Strange how this stuff only comes up where Dems are concerned.

[Cleita]

99. Er, he's a Republican?

Like Arnold Shwollenpecker is also a Republican and I guess his penis isn't as important as Clinton's Democratic one was.

[goclark]

100. Yea? What's up with Wild Rudy?

If he can take communion anyone can!

[bigbillhaywood]

101. The Vatican's against war, too. Have they threatened to excommunicate

pro-war politicians also? Or pro-death penalty politicians? Seems only fair. They should be consistent.