I had a discussion with some Repukes at dinner

[kcwayne]

where the Repukes started the political discussion by talking about the NFL player that was killed in Afghanistan, and going on and on about what a hero he was, etc. etc. This somehow morphed into a discussion about POW's and I made a comment about how I couldn't understand how John McCain was stumping for Bush given what Bush had done to him in the primaries.

Of course the Repukes were clueless about what had happened in the primaries so I had to give them the background on how Bush's campaign had accused McCain of being a traitor and how they spread the rumor about him having illegitimate black children.

One Repuke chimed in "Well he did talk". My response was "So the fuck what? You would have done the same thing, only alot earlier".

So someone said "I guess you are not a Bush supporter".

I said, "No, I think he is the worst President ever, is an inarticulate moron, and a pathelogical liar. Have I made myself clear?"

So a Repuke pipes up "I'm a one issue voter. I want my taxes lowered, that's all I care about"

This is the same Repuke that was hero worshiping the dead NFL player. I asked him "So great. You're ready to send your son off to Syria or Iran then when Bush enacts the draft?"

He said, "No, I'll send him to Vancouver or Mexico."

I was this intellectually undeveloped and totally devoid of ethics, when I was 7. These people don't deserve to live, let alone live in a free society.

[codegreen]

1. mention in the future that Kerry will lower middle class taxes more than *

[ComerPerro]

2. Well, I agree with them about Tillman

Because, I really respect the hell out of the guy, and I do consider him to be a hero.

But as for the rest...

And I wonder if this person really thinks that Bush being in office is in any way helping him.

Unless you are friends with some very wealthy people.

Jesus...

Great point at the end there. I have noticed that most neocons and freepers think at the level of a ten year old boy.

[kcwayne]

15. So here's an unpopular position

The jury is out for me on whether Tillman is a hero.

1) We know nothing about the circumstances of his death, so one cannot make a judgement about whether he was conducting heroic acts.

2) This man wanted to join the special forces and become a highly trained killer elite to take revenge on governmentally declared adversaries. I have a hard time considering someone highly ambitious about killing other people to be heroic. Pathelogical comes to mind first.

3) He sacrificed increased wealth to "serve his country." This is unusal (in today's culture, in was not unusual in 1942), but doesn't rise to the level of heroic. It would have been more unusual if he had never made money, had a multi-million contract for the NFL, and decided that no, he would rather serve in the military. Given that he already had millions in the bank, walking away from another couple of years in the NFL is not the same level of sacrifice as the first case.

Consider John Kerry's case. When he got out of Yale, he could have gone directly to law school, and then on to make alot of money and completely dodge the military (like all the Republican Chickenhawks). Is his choice to go the military heroic in the same sense as Tillman? With JFK as somewhat of a mentor, one has to consider the likelihood that going to the military was part of a long term strategy to enter politics.

My problem with this in regards to hero worship is that I think that the consequences of acts you take to seek some professional or psychological advantage don't elevate your actions to truely heroic. I consider heroics to be selfless acts on the behalf of others. It is not clear to me that Tillman's acts were motivated by selflessness or by revenge. If it is the latter, I don't consider him to be worthy of high praise.

On the other points, the Repukes are acquaintences, not friends, and they make over $200K, so there were some capital gains and tax rate advantages that they received from the Bush tax cuts. So they "know" Bush is helping them, as long as they think they will never have to pay the freight.

[benddem]

20. There is a HUGE difference between

special forces and Rangers. Rangers aren't trained killers

[HootieMcBoob]

52. Rangers are the army's elite special forces

they are trained to kill.

[Poor Richard]

53. Green Berets are Army special forces

Rangers are better trained than your regular infantry, and operate in special ranger units. I think all of the Army Airborne - paratroopers- are rangers but not sure.

Green Berets get the SEALS type of training, also the Delta Force does which is kind of an army unit/black budget

[porkrind]

28. Nice post. I agree.

Thanks.

[ComerPerro]

36. Well, fair enough, but here is my take

I see him as heroic because he actually put his life for what he stands for.

One of the things I despise most about FReepers is that they support this damn bullshit but they don't have the integrity to actually enlist. Every day I see College Rethugs who are always pushing Bush's war and his agenda while berating others, and I just always think why the hell aren't you in Iraq, asshole?

This is why I think what Tillman did was admirable. I don't agree with it, I don't support the war or a decision to go to war, but at least he followed through on something he believed in.

So maybe you don't like the word "hero" being wrecklessly thrown around.

Can I at least say I admire his courage?

BTW, does the name KCWayne refer to the KC area (I am near there, I go to KU in Lawrence)

[kcwayne]

42. I understand your point

and agree that if more Freepers walked the talk, there would be fewer freepers. They would either die on the field of battle or discover that they really don't believe perpetual war is a good thing. Even the Japanese ran out of kamakaze pilots.

KC does not stand for Kansas City, its the initials of my name.

BTW when I was in college I used to take Amtrak between Illinois and Texas and passed through Lawrence. I remember a bunch of KU students waiting at the station for a friend. They were partying hearty and having a great time. It was one of those receptions I have only otherwise seen in the movies. I remember thinking that Lawrence must be a fun town.

[yardwork]

24. No. My ten year old son has far better reasoning abilities.

And he's mad as hell at * for lying to him about WMD.

The difference between my ten year old and me is that I assumed * was lying in the first place, because I've lived long enough to know what Republicans do, which is lie.

[Aunt Anti-bush]

58. Tell him he's not alone. My son and classmates all want to vote.

He's 12 years old and he told me in school the other day the kids were all talking about wishing they could vote so they could help elect a better president.

[w4rma]

31. Yup, Tillman is a hero, imho. That's not a partisan issue.

And I agree with everything else you said, also. (I only disagree with your use of "they" when refering to Tillman.)

[leftchick]

49. well my 9 year old son knows a liar when he hears one....

He daily tells me * is a liar!

[Indiana_Dem]

3. The sad thing is

is that if Kerry gets in and he can't get the U.N. or other countries involved then he either has 2 options: pulling the troops out or committing more through a draft. And then who will get the blame? He will. All the Repukes will blame him instead of their savior GW Bush who would've likely done the same thing himself.

[frankly_fedup2]

4. Well, all I can tell you is don't have dinner with them again . . .

You are obviously outnumbered; however, you do appear more intelligent then them so maybe your not so outnumbered after all. You cannot convert a person who will stand and say about how great GWB is. It is sickening. I do not even approach the discussion with some of our Repuke friends. One of them said that GWB is the most perfect president we have ever had, besides their messiah Reagan, of course.

Good luck.

[LoZoccolo]

5. If it were legal, I might consider saying to these one-issue voters...

..."Here. Here's your hundred-and-twenty bucks you got from your tax cut, plus a ten-percent premium. Now vote Kerry."

[Sperk]

6. "I'm a one issue voter. I want my taxes lowered, that's all I care about"

Awwweeee, how patriotic. :eyes:

[DeepModem Mom]

39. In a way, I feel sorry for people who think of nothing but low taxes....

An astounding number of people go to the polls for this reason alone. But what empty minds, hearts, lives! I can think of nothing to say when I meet people like this, and they have nothing of interest, or value to say to me.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HuskerDem]

16. It's how you speak

When you are trying to get through to IDIOTS who have been listening to DUH-bya for so long their language map is skewed and discombobulated.

[kcwayne]

17. My bad

I should have run it through the spell checker, especially since I have my contacts in and can't see close up very well.

[TNDemo]

8. He must not care about the taxes his children will have to pay.

They will be astronomical so he can get a teeny cut now.

[DemsAreBack]

9. These people don't deserve to live

Does that mean you won't be having dinner with them again?

[kcwayne]

18. I never choose to associate with these people.

I was at the bar having dinner, and they just sidled up and joined me. I know them from the golf course I play at.

[Seldona]

10. So in essense,

lower my taxes, and let those that cannot afford an out die in this war.

These people really are scum bags.

Sorry if they are your friends, but that is the most pathetic, self-centered, and cold, ideology I have ever heard.

[SEpatriot]

11. Return of the "Got mines"

Single issue voter! Joe Biden used to refer to these people as the "Got mines" as in, Got mine - now you go get yours. It's an epidemic man, and the only cure is the hard truth and a huge dose of ethics.

[LibDemAlways]

14. Standard repuke line is "I vote my pocketbook."

Translation: I don't give a rat's ass about the common good or anybody else for that matter. I've got mine. Who the hell cares about you?

[Minstrel Boy]

12. "I was this intellectually undeveloped and totally devoid of ethics when

I was seven."

You said a lot right there that I understand.

The core of their philosophy is an unexamined selfishness. There's no empathy or responsibility to others.

[Jackpine Radical]

13. The hilarious part is that Bush won't even lower their total taxes.

State & local taxes & "user fees" will have to go up to cover all the things Bush isn't gonna pay for, from education to highways. And those local taxes are almost always far more regressive, and therefore harder on lower-income people, than the federal income taxes they replace.

If these idiots weren't pulling me down the drain with them, I'd laugh as I watch them sink in their own stupidity.

[calimary]

34. Next time you run into that kind of "one-issue voter," quote 'em this:

Picked it up from another thread here somewhere, by another clever DUer:

GOP - making government smaller. Just small enough to fit inside YOUR bedroom! – DUer lapislzi, 4/23/04

[KharmaTrain]

19. These Bastards Bills Are Coming Due...

You can only hold things down so long. Interest rates are about to climb and inflation fueled by this huge defecit are sure to follow, then where's that fat ass' tax cut going?

Also, ask the asswipe how much he saved on his local taxes...which probably went up to offset the loss of federal dollars to subsidize his highways and schools...and the bigger tax hikes that are coming as states will be sure to make up for what the feds give back.

The fiscal excesses of this regime will be felt for many years to come and here's hoping it's out of his fat wallet some of the costs of fixing things come from.

Face it folks, if we're able to get these oxygen theives out of power, it's still gonna take several years just to clean up their messes.

[PfNJ]

27. I always bring up the.....

local tax issue, it's actually gotten a couple people thinking.....

states and municipalities have to make up for the shortfall somehow, property taxes especially have gone up, due to his woeful underfunding of his "education" bill, governors like to call these things "unfunded mandates", of which they are none too fond.....

just how is it still possible that the republicans are considered the "party of fiscal responsibility"???????

[Paranoid_Portlander]

35. Brand new local income tax here in Portland.

It did not exist prior to April 15 of this year. Rate is 1.25%, based on Oregon taxable income.

[Suzie57]

21. Next Time

Ask them what they want, to support their heros in the armed forces or low taxes for people making over $200,000 a year?

[mountainvue]

22. Why on Earth are you having dinner with these people?

[kcwayne]

23. I was at the bar eating and they came in and joined me

I know them from playing golf course. I would never choose to join them.

[yardwork]

25. I admire you for stating your opinion so clearly.

Even though they seemed too stupid to think, it is possible that your words will have an impact on them in the weeks and months to come.

Who knows? It might cause one or two of them to rethink their position sometime between now and the election.

[mountainvue]

32. Ah well,

nothing you can do about that then.

[Blue_Tires]

26. He said, "No, I'll send him to Vancouver or Mexico."

Jesus H. Christ! :eyes:

[billybob537]

29. Isn't that special

Now you know where Ann the man Coulters genes came from.:mad: :wtf:

[kerry-is-my-prez]

30. Join the club. I just berated two Repubs tonight. Told them Bush was a

moron and that he's screwed everything up that he's managed to get his hands on. That everyone else in the world hates us and that we'll never get anyone to cooperate with us or help us with Iraq as long as he's President.

They said "well the economy is getting better." I told them it wasn't and that unemployment was still high and that if Clinton was in office that the Dow would probably be at 1400 or 1500.

I also said "Don't you care about what he's doing to the environment? And aren't you worried about him trying to get rid of Roe vs. Wade. Are you THAT conservative about all those social issues? He's way to the right on everything. The Republican Party is nothing like it USED to be." Then I told them about how he and the Repubs had fought to allow snowmobiles in Yellowstone.

One of them said "Well I'm not really THAT much of a Republican. I vote for the MAN not for the Party. liked Clinton and voted for HIM and also for other Dems."

Then they said it's not going to be that bad if Bush gets back in for four more years. I said "Are you nuts! Do you know what's going to happen in the next four years?" I told them I was afraid of what was going to happen if Bush was in another four years and that NOW is NOT the time to vote Republican.

They said they didn't like Kerry. I asked them "What's wrong with Kerry?" "Well he's a flip-flopper. He flip-flopped on all those bills in Congress."

I told them that they couldn't believe all the political ads - and that you have to know WHAT exactly is included in the bill - that they attach all kinds of b.s. to the bills.

After all this they apparently ran out of arguments so they said "I don't really like talking about politics." Go figure....

[dawn]

33. I think we *should* re-instate a draft...draft the "got mines!"

nt

[Catherine Vincent]

37. That's the problem with repukes.

As long as the money is right in their pockets, they don't give a damn about anything else.

Greedy assholes!

[lebkuchen]

38. You and a friend of mine had the same kind of evening

At a gathering, a RW Christian-type Texan approached him and started to talk politics, praising Bush, and his attack of Iraq. My friend said that no WMD were ever found and now we have over 700 troops killed. She said that while she was concerned about the numbers, attacking Iraq was necessary to prevent further attacks against the U.S. Get this. She said had there been such a preemptive attack before WWII against the Germans, Hitler wouldn't have gotten out of control and we wouldn't have had WWII.

:wtf:

My friend said he'd done two tours of Vietnam, and that there's nothing that pisses him off more than a bunch of RW chickenhawks banging the wardrums. She said that comments on Kerry's war record weren't too flattering. My friend said, "How can you possibly compare Kerry's record to Bush's, w/three purple hearts, plus bronze and silver star? Dick Cheney alone has five military deferments!"
The conversation ended pretty quickly after that.

I'll have to hand it to people like my friend and yourself, who will still take the time to educate the mind-numbed masses. When it comes to RW whackos, I no longer have the energy for them.

[democrank]

40. Tell the Rethug

you hope his son can find some high-paying jobs when he gets to Mexico. He`ll need them to help pay off this war Bush has charged to the next generation.

[Piperay]

41. I know several repukes who have said

the same thing to me..."all I care about is keeping my taxes low"! :wtf: These same people will rant about welfare "moochers" and people who want something for nothing and yet they don't realize they are the same way. They constantly have "their hands out" (in a mannner of speaking) and demand the Government do stuff like have police protection and a strong military but how the hell do they expect all that stuff to be paid for if they don't want to pay their fair share of taxes. :argh:

[kcwayne]

45. Yeah, this guy's a classic

He is a sales rep for a pharmaceutical company. He probably averages 15-30 minutes of work a day to call on his accounts, and spends the rest of his time playing golf. For this he probably makes around 200K per year. His wife is also a sales rep with similar income/spare time.

So companies blindly pay them huge amounts of money for who they know, and their ability to get people to use their products.

But in their twisted view of the world, they think they work hard. You have to scratch your head in wonderment at the pure stupidity of someone like this who will make a racist remarks greenskeepers. While they spend their entire day playing golf around people who are doing back breaking work 10 hours a day for .0021 % of what they make, they have the pure evilness to call them "lazy spics".

If only stupidity were a terminal disease.

[Guava Jelly]

43. I was in a restaurant yesterday mourning

And the table behaind My girls Mom were 6 older gentlemen one with an oxygen tank.
They were talking about Dubya and what i gathered they didnt think he was all that great.
One guy said "of course if you criticise bush your unpatriotic" he was being sarcastic.They talked about gas prices And i thought to myself.
Me here in conservative Johnson county Kansas hearing 6 guys talking about W in a non pleasing Way...That there is hope!!
As i left the restaurant I saw a station wagon loaded down with bumper stickers one said and i quote. "send the idiot back to texas"
I love america :)
I get the distinct feeling that dubya has a greater chance of loosing supporters then gaining new ones...And to quote Martha " thats a good thing"

[Iceburg]

44. Tell yer Repug Bud: Canadians will be providing safe harbour to Dems only.

We are keeping a list and checking it twice ... goin' find out who's naughty or nice.

[kcwayne]

47. On the other hand, only allowing them to perform community service jobs

like hauling garbage or caring for the elderly would give Canada a pool of permantly pissed off hot heads that would generate so much steam it might melt the Iceburgs up there!

[Guava Jelly]

46. Tell them that

Tax dollars pay for body armour .
Tax dollars pay for fire trucks who put out fires.
tax dollars pay for Police who keep our streets safe as well as the streets they drive on.
I wonder how many soldiers had to go without body armour so i could get my 300 dollar tax loan.
Taxes are patriotic.
after all bombs, bullets, planes ,ships ,tanks ,arent free.
And is getting your tax cut worth screwing our vets out of benifits?

[LeahMira]

48. Pay as you go is a lot more costly

So a Repuke pipes up "I'm a one issue voter. I want my taxes lowered, that's all I care about"

I wonder which government service that s/he now receives is the one that s/he is willing to do without.

Seems that these folks are always willing to cut services to someone else, but never to themselves.

Or, they imagine that if they had their tax dollars in hand they could provide those services for themselves. Someone ought to show them the actual math so they could see for themselves just how much it would cost them to do for themselves what the government now does... apparently without their notice.

[robbedvoter]

50. Try this: you pay more for the gas because W made a deal with SA

It may be the only thing tha gets to them.

[bleedingheart]

51. You can always count on republicans to be socially at a deficit

[Brooklyn-Mecca]

54. Hmm...

The biggest problem with conservatives is their inability to look at things practically and give it some objective analysis. Reactions based on emotions = illogical and counter-productive.

[ethereal]

55. He said, "No, I'll send him to Vancouver or Mexico."

Actually, neither will be an option thanks to the border treaties that are now in place. His kids WILL be found, and they WILL have to serve and they will likely be penalized for their efforts to dodge the draft that is looming.


A lot of Repubs are going to have rude awakenings if this current administration connives their way back into office. I just hope and pray that Kerry gets elected and I won't have the opportunity to say "I told you so."

[Aunt Anti-bush]

56. You are so right.

My brother is the only republican I know really well and no one knows why in the world he chose that path. He's NOT well off financially but he acts like being a republican makes him rich in some way. I refuse to discuss politics with him anymore because he's a complete idiot when it comes right down to it. He has NO CLUE what any of the isssues are except taxes. And the republican tax cuts don't affect him in any way but negative, still he doesn't care because some day he'll be rich on some rediculous money making scheme. (He was big in Amway for years and years...)

Don't get me wrong, he's my brother and I love him, but if he had a brain, he'd be dangerous with all of his rediculous republican views.

[kskiska]

57. A multi-millionaire guy I do work for occasionally

during the 2000 recount, told me as I was fretting over the election, "It doesn't matter who's in the White House." When the war began, he also said he would send his sons out of the country if need be. These guys are only concerned with their wallets.

My 83-year-old Repug father is the same way. He's more of a traditional Rockefeller Republican and doesn't give a shit about religion or abortion. He refuses to admit that the people in charge today are threats to this country. He's only interested in his portfolio, and that should give him pause, too.

[Lorien]

59. What I always ask those single issue

"no tax, lower tax" voters; "Have you ever considered moving to Honduras or Afghanistan? The have some of the lowest taxes on the planet!" then I usually get something about loving the USA, to which I respond "then I suppose you feel that you support our troops?" to which they say "Of course I do! I pay my taxes!' (d'oh!) or, if the answer is simply "yes" then I ask them if they are aware that most of their tax dollars are spent on the military, which has cost us so much that the Nation is now in debt. If they don't support higher taxes for the wealthy and SOME taxes, at least, on corporations, then they aren't supporting our troops at all, and they can't possibly "love America", since a Nation with so much debt is a Nation in danger of becoming weak.