call me what you want but Ariel Sharon sucks

[mopaul]

www.redefeatbush.com
I'm sick of him, and I'm also sick of Israel in general. attack me if it makes you feel better.

IF you can, step back and look at the whole Israel/Palestine chaos as if you were seeing it for the first time. forget the thousands of years of hatred and murders emanating from that accursed patch of dirt and rocks.

Israel, is a tiny island of Jews surrounded by a vast sea of Muslims.
the Muslims don't particularly want them there, because they are there as occupiers of their land. apparently, the god of the Jews, which just happens to be the same god of the Muslims, told the Jews that this land was their land, not the Palestinians. Zionism or something like that. apparently that's all it took, this unseen god, claiming that a certain tribe are his own 'chosen' people.

also, there are a bunch of rotten old holy sites that both sides have revered for thousands of years. old crumbling temples, dusty relics, etc. these must be constantly claimed and fought over, and a steady supply of fresh blood and souls must be offered up. almost sounds like the cult of Moloch. offering children as burnt offerings to keep god at bay.

Sharon makes no bones about his hatred of Palestinians. he uses Nazi-like terms when speaking of them. he sees them as sub human, and as his ememies. and he has sway over America's foreign policy.
he snaps his fingers and we give him billions a year to maintain his so called democracy in the region. that's a constant mantra from bushco, 'Israel is the only democracy in the region'.

but Sharon is an evil man. some men hide their evil with their outward appearance, not Sharon. you can actually see the demonic influence in his face. he USES America. he USES our weird religious connection, the so called Judeo-Christian ethic. and for some reason I've never understood, Americans are supposed to automatically support Israel, even if they commit Nazi-like atrocities against the practically helpless Palestinians.

anytime someone comes forward to criticize Israel and our policies in the middle east, he gets called a Jew-hater. i had a guy call me up after i published an anti Sharon cartoon and call me a Jew hater.
it was kinda scary. i am an atheist, and i hate bad religion, but i am not a Jew hater.

and not all Jews agree with the u.s./israeli alliance. just because you're a Jew does not mean that you love Sharon and hate Arabs. and if you dive into the I/P discussions, you'll run into some of the most vicious opinions you've ever heard.

here's what scares me the most. the god part of the equation. Israeli's actually believe that god gave them Israel and that anyone who says otherwise hates Jews and supports terrorism. bullshit.
god didn't give nobody no land. like the Navajos and Black Foot tribes can tell you, god gave them North America, but the Europeans took it as their own, practically killing off all the original inhabitants.

we now sit on the Navajos land, and we say, 'god gave this land to me'. manifest destiny. when your god tells you it's o.k. to kill off an entire nation of people, you need a new god. it's the same thing going on, but with different players.

bush meets with Sharon and they smile and shake hands and talk about peace and stability and cooperation and bla bla bla. the blood still flows in the streets. we still sell Israel helicopters and tanks and bombs and bullets and we still go to church every Sunday and thank god for Israel. we turn our heads to the images of dead Palestinian kids in the street.

Sharon is a monster. not the only one in that region of monsters, but the biggest, fattest one. when monsters occupy your land, you too are driven to do monstrous things. hate begets hate. blood begets blood. revenge begets revenge.

what sickness motivates our strange middle east policies? power? profit? god? what would it take to make peace there? the current approach is obscenely ineffective. do the Palestinians deserve to be left alone? did god really give that patch of land to the Jews?
what the fuck is going on over there? whatever it is, the whole bloody mess is coming to it's ultimate conclusion: Armageddon.

[Don Claybrook]

1. I call you.....

astute.

I'm sure the defenders of the butcher will be along shortly, so I thought I'd get a quick positive reply in first.

[Speed8098]

2. I agree

Sharon is a monster. not the only one in that region of monsters, but the biggest, fattest one. when monsters occupy your land, you too are driven to do monstrous things. hate begets hate. blood begets blood. revenge begets revenge.

[King_Crimson]

9. "Our Friends...the Israelis"...

I don't hate the Jewish people...I've ALWAYS HATED THEIR GOVERNMENT...WHY, YOU ASK...http://www.ussliberty.org Yes.."Our friends" HA

[DarkPhenyx]

11. It isn't the "Jewish Government".

It's the "Israeli" Government. Small qualitative difference, but an important one. As soon as we can start seperating Isreal from Judaism the easier it will be to seperate being anti-Israel from being anti-Semetic. Yes, Isreal was ounded as the "Jweish State" however it is worth noting that some of the Founding Fathers of both the Jewish State and the Zionist Movement as a whole were actually Jewish Athiests.

[NuttyFluffers]

3. jewish people have a right to exist

israel could be a good idea if given to the doves hands.

but ariel sharon doesn't have the right to be a war criminal and an @$$hole throwing his country and others (and the lives therein) into an unending hellish nightmare.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

24. Original message deleted

There is no point to this message remaining either.

[TexasProgresive]

4. He's a Hoover, alright!

Sharon has always been an agent provocateur. He intended to provoke violence when he went to Lebanon, to temple mount and by nearly 100 percent of his actions since becoming PM. He is a disgrace to the Human race and does horrible injustice to both Palestinians and Israelis. Hitler should be so proud.




Palestinian boy bound to an Israeli Defense Force vehicle as a human shield

[hellboy]

6. That pic is pure propoganda. I really question the validity of it.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Forkboy]

52. Once again

offer up some proof if you have any.

[thebigidea]

53. after all, Arafat probably has THOUSANDS of Israeli police jeeps, eh?

[Muddleoftheroad]

56. Prior to Intifada II

Israeli troops and PA soldiers patrolled the West Bank and Gaza in joint patrols using identical military jeeps. I know, I saw it in person.

[thebigidea]

61. if you look very closely, you'll notice the boy is made entirely from...

pipe cleaners, too.

[Muddleoftheroad]

63. For people who are suspicious of the media

Many here accept ANYTHING the PA says or does.

:crazy:

[thebigidea]

64. I'm with you, brother! The only paper with the REAL skinny is the...

awardwinning, Richard Perle-endorsed Jerusalem Post!

Why bother with any other media sources, ya know? If they don't print it, it isn't worth reading.

[Muddleoftheroad]

70. Strange that you think so

I almost never even cite anything from there. Instead I stick to mainstream media.

[charlie]

68. No need to

The other complaintant in the charges against the police is a rabbi human rights activist, who was also tied to a jeep.

[Muddleoftheroad]

18. Sharon did what he had a right to do by visiting the Temple Mount

The Arabs CHOSE to get upset by a visit that every Jew has a right to make.

[Forkboy]

21. It is naive to the max

to think Sharon wasn't trying to poke a finger in the Arabs eye by that visit.

Yes,he had the right to visit.That doesn't mean it wasn't a damn stupid thing to do.

[Muddleoftheroad]

28. The visit was cleared through the PA

And I don't care if it pokes a whole fist in their eye, it is his right to visit.

[Forkboy]

38. I didn't think you would answer any differently

[Muddleoftheroad]

41. That's good, I hate to disappoint

[Forkboy]

45. I didn't say I wasn't disappointed

though after all your posts it is something I'm used to.

[mopaul]

22. so your's is a religious connection with sharon & israel?

muddleoftheroad has joined, now we REALLY have a debate. can you offer further reasons for supporting sharon, OTHER than your strange religious connection? seriously, i respect your opinion, though i'm sure it differs with mine. we are all allowed our opinions.

i'd like to hear it straight from the horse's mouth.

[Muddleoftheroad]

31. Not a religious connection at all actually

A Civil Rights connection.

During the Civil Rights battles in the South, one of the first groups to come to the aid of African-Americans were Jewish men and women. They aided us every way they could. My momma made sure that I learned this as a child and made me promise to never turn my back on our friends.

If you want to get rid of Sharon, all the Palestinians have to do is push for a peaceful solution and get rid of terrorism. His support in Israel would disappear almost over night. Remember, it was Intifada that brought him into power.

[thebigidea]

32. really, I thought it was votes by Israeli citizens

silly me.

[Muddleoftheroad]

36. The votes were a reaction

After the peace plan had been turned down and Intifada delivered as a response.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

62. You may want to check your facts

The peace plan was turned down after the original one, the one that was the basis of ongoing and amicable negotiations proposed by Yitzhak Rabin, was taken off the table following his assassination by the hands of the Israeli people. Israel then made a new proposition, one that would've turned the proposed Palestinian state into swiss cheese, with no congruity, little self-rule, no right of return, and was essentially little better than the status quo. This was a slap in the face to the Palestinians as you might imagine and effectively ended negotiations.

The intifada was delivered as a response to Sharon's own callousness. If you think that the Palestinians are silly or ridiculous for being upset by Sharon exercising his right to visit Temple Mount, you may want to check out Japan. Junichiro Koizumi, Japanese PM, has repeatedly pissed off most of Asia by visiting a shrine to Japan's fallen dead soldiers. Koizumi was perfectly within his RIGHT to do this, but was it a good or moral idea to do in his position as leader of Japan? Hell no it was not. Just because you CAN do something, that doesn't mean you SHOULD, and Sharon most definitely should not have gone to Temple Mount.

[Muddleoftheroad]

67. "Facts?"

Barak offered a peace plan that Arafat turned down without a response. That is not negotiation. That is the END of negotiation. Then Arafat delivered the terror of Intifada II.

The Intifada II started BEFORE Sharon went to the Temple Mount. As a Jewish man, Sharon had EVERY right to visit the holiest place in Judaism.

If that inspires the Palestinians to even further violence, then there is nothing Israel can ever do to satisfy them.

The Right of Return issue, btw, is as dead as Yassin.

[Matilda]

75. I'm sorry, but you are wrong - the current Intifada started

after Sharon visited the Temple Mount. As he knew it would.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

77. You didn't even read what I said, obviously

Barak's deal was a slap in the face after what Rabin offered. I explicitly said this, yet you ignored this fact in full. I wonder why... :eyes:

I also explicitly said that while Sharon had the RIGHT to visit Temple Mount, I offered an example from outside of the region as to why this was a pathetically callous action. You ignored this fact in full as well. Again, I wonder why... :eyes:

And Right of Return will be alive as long as the Palestinian people are. Right of Return is exactly the concept that lead to the creation of Israel. Why is it a good policy for Israel, but not for Palestine? The Palestinian people will never acquiesce this point, nor should they.

[Muddleoftheroad]

89. Oh, that nasty slap

If Arafat didn't like the deal, he could have responded. He did, with terror, not negotiation.

When you say Sharon had the right but that he shouldn't visit, you are in effect saying he DIDN'T have the right and that Palestinians are somehow correct in being upset. They aren't.

The Right of Return casuses more harm to the Palestinians than anything. Israel can't agree without destroying itself -- which is the real goal of the Right of Return. So, the cool thing about it is that it ensure perpetual war and the Palestinians always having a convenient excuse to fight again and demand more and more concessions from Israel.

[Matilda]

108. Has it not occurred to you that sheer bloody-mindedness

is not a good attitude for a statesman to have?

[Muddleoftheroad]

114. Stateman?

When am I running for office?

And, for the record, I am not the one who said she didn't care what happened to the Jews in Israel. You were.

[Name removed]

110. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[thebigidea]

29. Then again, you'll say the same when he whacks Arafat

just another chain on the ol' Peace Fence, eh?

[Muddleoftheroad]

33. I would say killing Arafat is ill-advised

Though he has far and away earned it as a leader of terrorist enterprise.

It would be better to let Arafathead pass -- but that could take years.

[thebigidea]

37. so in other words, yeah - you'll defend it.

Sharon knows his days are numbered - if he goes down, he's going to want to take Arafat with him.

Summer/Fall, maybe? Place your bets! Place your bets!

[Muddleoftheroad]

42. He has earned it by backing terror

But were I in the Israeli cabinet, I would argue against it.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

39. Sharon also deserves death

His hands are also far from clean.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[thebigidea]

43. its the Old Testament revised by H.P. Lovecraft

[chimpymustgo]

7. Thank you, mopaul, for telling it exactly as it is.

Not a disputable point in your argument. I hope people will read it with an open mind and a kind heart that really desires justice and peace.

[matcom]

8. locking

too much truth in this post :)

[Jim__]

10. Agreed - Sharon sucks

And the US disgraces itself by backing him and his murderous policies.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Muddleoftheroad]

20. So you claim the ADL runs our government?

:crazy:

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Brooklyn-Mecca]

25. Hmmm...

I hope no one is defending Ariel Sharon's character.

Actually, the concept of Zionism arose in the late 1800's, not the late 1900's as you would have us believe. Now, this man Theodor Herzl...you want to see some of the tricks up his sleeve? Here ya go...

"It is essential that the sufferings of Jews...become worse...this will assist in realization of our plans...I have an excellent idea...I shall induce anti-semites to liquidate Jewish wealth...The anti-semites will assist us thereby in that they will strengthen the persecution and oppression of Jews. The anti-semites shall be our best friends." (From his Diary, Part I, pp. 16)

and

"So anti-Semitism, which is a deeply imbedded force in the subconscious mind of the masses, will not harm the Jews. I actually find it to be advantageous to building the Jewish character, education by the masses that will lead to assimilation. This education can only happen through suffering, and the Jews will adapt."


Now, that's a perfect example of an arrogant, self-loathing pig.


But this topic IS about Ariel Sharon, isn't it? Alright, here's a little pearl by Ariel Sharon, too...

"I don't know something called International Principles. I vow that I'll burn every Palestinian child that will be born in this area. The Palestinian woman and child is more dangerous than the man, because the Palestinian child's existence refers that generations will go on, but the man causes limited danger. I vow that if I was just an Israeli civilian and I met a Palestinian I would burn him and I would make him suffer before killing him. With one hit I've killed 750 Palestinians. I want to encourage my soldiers by raping Arabic girls as the Palestinian woman is a slave for Jews, and we do whatever we want to her and nobody tells us what we shall do but we tell others what they shall do."

-Ariel Sharon, In an interview with General Ouze Merham, 1956


Beautiful, huh?

Oh, he's not done! Here's another little something-something...

"We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."
- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Prime Minister, Zionazi
Knesset, Tel Aviv, October 3, 2001


There's no better way to incite anti-Semitism by making those kind of statements.

[krkaufman]

73. Scary

"We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."
- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Prime Minister, Zionazi
Knesset, Tel Aviv, October 3, 2001

Scary quote, if true. Sadly misinformed, too. We'd nuke Israel ourselves if it was required of us by our Saudi masters.

Sad that Sharon would proclaim that, less than a month after 9/11.

[Muddleoftheroad]

34. Ah, yes, the Jews run our government

What else do you claim they run?

[Jacobin]

47. Whew, that's a relief to hear

I had been concerned that Perle, Wolfowitz, Kristol, et al had considerable influence on our foreign policy.

(BTW, I give NO pass to the Xtian Fundies in our country who have joined league with the zionists to accomplish the same goals, which are anathema to the traditional values of this country. Both groups are madmen)

[Muddleoftheroad]

48. The old lie

That Jews are more loyal to Israel than the U.S.

[Brooklyn-Mecca]

55. Muddle...

"What else do you claim they run?"

You see, I simply offered a quote by Ariel Sharon who claims the Zionist Jews run America. In the greater context, he was saying for Israel not to worry about possible American pressure, such as requests for stopping the Palestinian genocide, because there is significant Zionist influence here (I assume he meant on our policies and our media).

Let me put it this way...about two years ago, when I was 14 and 15, when I followed the mainstream media, anything pro-Palestine I saw/read I simply dismissed as "anti-Semitic." Of course, you can understand the apparent conditioning involved if I were to know very little about the Palestinian/Israeli struggle but automatically assume Israel is 100% correct. How does this happen? One word: propaganda. How is this propaganda so concentrated in America? One answer: Zionist influence on the media.

[Muddleoftheroad]

58. Those powerful and influential zionists

It is often claimed by right winger and left wing anti-Semites that Jews control everything -- the world monetary system, the U.S. government, the U.S. media, Hollywood, etc.

Any time I start seeing Jews control this or that, I grow wildly suspicious.

The Jewish people influence what goes on in America, just like all other groups from Hispanics to blacks to Irish.

Now, a quick question, what is this "Palestinian genocide?" There certainly is no such thing.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

79. You apparently believe

25,718 Palestinian casualties occurred by "falling down the stairs".

[Muddleoftheroad]

84. No, they occurred because the Palestinians rejected peace

And didn't continue to discuss that bizarre concept.

People get hurt and killed in combat. It is a sad fact of life.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Muddleoftheroad]

35. So you claim they control the media?

I just want to make sure I am reading this right.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

49. Did I ever say those words?

Do not distort my arguments for your own manipulative purposes. I never said they control. They most certainly influence our media greatly, however.

[Muddleoftheroad]

50. How do they have this influence?

I'm dying to know. Note, you used the word "controlling" and said they "dominated" the will of the American people.

Here is what you said before: "But they do have a significant, indirect influence over it by controlling what Americans think about the subject. Politicians create Israeli/Palestinian policy based on the will of the people, and the will of the American is dominated by the ADL who says that anyone who is critical of Israel and its policies is an anti-Semite."

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

51. You misread

Probably intentionally, as you are attempting to do the exact same thing I'm criticizing the ADL for.

I said the ADL controls what Americans think. I didn't say they control the media. Those are very different concepts. They control American opinions by stating that any criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic. By nature, most Americans do not want to think of themselves as hateful, and as such, they change their views accordingly. This is exactly what Bush has done, except substitute "anti-Semitic" with "unpatriotic". The media is not exempt from this, and they too have made the necessary adjustments. It's bad for business, after all, to be labeled a hateful news organization, is it not? This is what people call "influence", and the ADL has most certainly influenced our news media in the ways I have outlined above.

edit: punctuation

[Muddleoftheroad]

54. OK, so now the ADL controls what we think

So, according to you, merely by the statement that anti-Israel is anti-Semitic, they set the agenda for an entire nation of 300 million?

Wow, that's some fucking statement. What prose! What power!

BTW, influence is something everybody exerts on our political process. Control is unique and shows MASSIVE power. You said control.

[solinvictus]

66. ADL and AIPAC

The Anti-Defamation League and America-Israel Political Action Committee does indeed set the tone for any dialogue or media coverage on the issue of Israel. AIPAC is one of the most powerful lobbying groups in DC and their power extends through the media as well. Read "They Dare to Speak Out" by former Congressman Paul Findley. He expressed a pro-Palestinian opinion in an election cycle and had the entire weight of the Zionist lobby fall behind his opponent. The media is beholden to the Zionist lobby either because of Jewish ownership or because of heavily weighted corporate directives that are pro-Israel. There's little objective debate about the issue in the US because of the Zionist lobby's interference in media and politics.

[Muddleoftheroad]

69. More claims of Zionist media control

Wow, they are some busy folks. I wonder where they find the time.

AIPAC and the ADL are two among thousands of lobbying groups in the U.S. To claim those two "set the tone for any dialogue or media coverage on the issue of Israel," is downright paranoid.

And to then cite one guy who claims he ran afoul of the Zionist lobby and lost is job is just sour grapes.

There is no uber "media" in the U.S. Despite corporate control, it is still a wildly diverse mix of entities and personalities that involve thousands of newspapers, magazines and radio stations and millions of websites.

What a lot of pro-Palestinian posters don't seem to understand is that Americans identify with and like Israel.

[Name removed]

Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Muddleoftheroad]

81. Setting the agenda

For one issue for an entire country is a stunning achievement. And of course, ridiculous.

Americans choose to see the conflict in Israel vs. Palestinian terms because those terms are accurate. Americans like Israel since it has been our ally for decades and has not typically sided with our enemies as the PA does all the time.

The ADL is not * nor the White House. It has nowhere near the ability to influence anything that the White House does.

Yet you insist that the ADL controls the debate. How does it do that across the thousands of print and broadcast media?

I don't have to twist your argument. It's already twisted.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

106. How does it do that, you ask?

It's quite simple, really.

First of all, you should know by now that there are not thousands of print and broadcast media outlets. The vast majority of our media is owned by only a handful of networks. Not that this is point is vastly relevant either way.

Secondly, it is able to have its influence because it plays on moral sympathies. If the ADL says it's anti-Semitic, it must be true, as they are the alleged authority on the issue. Further, post-Holocaust America has a large guilt complex for wrongly not intervening earlier when we had evidence this atrocity was occurring. Therefore, we are keenly sensitive to any anti-Jewish hatred and seek to snuff it out immediately. Again, you can draw comparisons to Bush in post 9/11 America. We are keenly sensitive to any anti-American sentiment, and thus, we seek to snuff it out wherever possible. In both cases, this has been abused to the nth degree and has been used to further political agendas by labeling anyone who is anti-Israel as anti-Semitic and anyone who is anti-Bush as being anti-America. Due to the historical sensitivities that I have already mentioned, these misguided messages strongly resonate within the American people, and anyone who draws that anti-America/Semitic label from the obviously biased authorities on the issue (the ADL and the Bush regime) is immediately labeled a wacko. THAT is how the ADL controls the debate.

I know exactly where you're headed with this because you've obviously read the ADL's guidelines to spotting anti-Semitism. As they like to argue, anyone who spews the misguided notion that Jews control everything is anti-Semitic. I do not argue that. They do not need to control the media directly, however, in order to achieve their goal of framing the debate in the manner I have illustrated above.

[AntiCoup2K4]

111. PNAC runs the government

But the ADL is right there to accuse you of being "anti-semitic" if you dare to question the neocon shitbag traitors and their disastrous fascist policies.

[RapidCreek]

80. What motivates our alliance?

They operate as on site middle men for US government agent provocateurs. Colin Powell funneled the weapons the Reagan Junta sold/gave to the terrorist state of Iran through Israel.

RC

[demnan]

13. The most passionate critic of Sharon I know

is a fairly religious person who is a regular synagogue goer. She believes that Sharon is "not a good Jew".

[Forkboy]

17. Many Israelis hate Sharon

just as many Americans hate Bush.It's a good thing :)

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

30. A very important point you bring up

It's very important to differentiate Israeli policy from the Israeli people. Even former members of the Israeli Knesset are embaressed by their country's policy towards the Palestinian people, evidenced by the fact that many of them joined together to create B'Tselem, one of the leading Israeli human rights groups (http://www.btselem.org). This said, they also assassinated their own leader when the peace process was at its apex. Just like in the U.S., there are equal numbers on both sides.

[PsychoDad]

19. Excellent post.

Call it as you see it.

[Jacobin]

46. Haven't you heard?

It's unpatriotic and anti-semitic to oppose Armageddon and the Rapture.

Our Fearless Leader has so decreed.

[Matilda]

57. An understandably emotional plea for sanity.

I supported the right of the Jews to a homeland for over 30 years,
ever since I first visited the country over thirty years ago. But
since Sharon came to power and unleashed his unashamed hatred towards
all Arab residents, militant and innocent child alike, I have changed
my opinion. I now consider that the creation of the state of Israel
was the most stupid decision the U.N. ever took - and they took it
under pressure from President Truman, who in turn was under pressure
from Jewish voters in the U.S.

I think we all now need to ask: If a state can only survive with
billions of dollars in aid and war materials every year, if it can
only survive with every adult man and woman liable to be called for
military service, if it can only survive with its inhabitants shut
off from its neighbours by a huge concrete and electrified wire
fence, and if the blood of thousands of Palestinians must be shed
each year as a sacrifice, is that state viable?

My answer is no, it is not.

[Muddleoftheroad]

59. Holocaust II

What would happen in your desire to end the Israeli state? Where would the Jewish people go? How many more would die?

Remember, the Arab world ethnically cleansed itself of Jews after 1948. What do you think would happen if the state of Israel ceased to exist?

[Matilda]

65. Do you know, I don't think I really care any more.

The Israeli Jews have lost all claim to the moral high ground.

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mopaul]

74. such language from a chrisitan!

your zealotry is showing

[Muddleoftheroad]

78. Language vs. 5 million lives

There are five million Jews in Israel. When someone tells me they don't care what happens to them, I think such language -- hell lots worse -- is called for.

Where is YOUR outrage?

[Forkboy]

76. So which pro Palestinians aren't being honest Muddle?

dont be shy now that we know that you believe pro-Pal posters are rooting for a second Holocaust.

[Muddleoftheroad]

82. Don't know

We just saw one admit that she doesn't care if there is a second Holocaust. Are there others? I have no idea. They wouldn't tell me if they felt that way, now would they?

[mopaul]

85. holocaust schmolocaust

stop trying to frame the slaughter as a civil rights issue or in some way connected to the holocaust. it's neither.

[Muddleoftheroad]

90. Wow, what a telling post.

[mopaul]

93. you appear to be outnumbered muddle....that's also telling

[Muddleoftheroad]

96. All it tells is it is early on Sunday morning

And the pro-Israel posters are probably reading the paper or waiting for the NFL Draft day two.

[Name removed]

100. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

97. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Forkboy]

113. truth hurts Muddle

sorry it offends you.

[thebigidea]

98. wow, what a telling reply.

Its absolutely shameful of you to hold the Holocaust over people's heads as some smug rhetorical device... as if there was an even a remote chance that Israel faced a Holocaust with a hundred nukes at the ready.

Did you have relatives that died in the camps?

No? Well, I did. Does my outrage trump your outrage?

[Muddleoftheroad]

101. The Holocaust is not some smug rhetorical device

Of course, I didn't say "Holocaust, Schmolocaust."

[thebigidea]

105. no, you said "Holocaust II" like it was a cheap horror movie sequel

[Muddleoftheroad]

112. Nothing cheap about it

There are five million Jews in Israel who would be at risk if Israel ceased to exist.

Sorry you don't like my shorthand.

[bpilgrim]

86. sounded like you were talking to all of them

which is in keeping with your 'style'

peace

[Muddleoftheroad]

92. What you infer

Is up to you. My statement was clear.

[Forkboy]

94. But you do have an idea

you said you were glad that at least one pro-Pal poster was being honest.Surely that implies that the others aren't being honest.

Why wouldn't they tell you? One just did.

[Muddleoftheroad]

99. Maybe others are more cautious

Maybe those with the most extreme positions have already been sent packing.

[Forkboy]

104. no,you're still here

[bpilgrim]

83. is closer to what is happening NOW

in PALESTINE.

do you not care what is happening to those people?
where is your OUTRAGE?

can we stick to the FACTS ON THE GROUND, please?

thanks :hi:

peace

[Muddleoftheroad]

88. Claiming there is ANY comparison

Between what the Palestinians are encountering and the Holocaust is the height of exaggeration and propaganda.

[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DoYouEverWonder]

102. Actually the plight of the Palestinians

is closer to the plight of the blacks in America before the civil rights movement.

You would think, someone with your background could relate to plight of all oppressed people, no matter what color or religion they happen to be?

[Muddleoftheroad]

107. I do support the oppressed people

The Jewish people have been oppressed more than any in history.

[Name removed]

109. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

116. You mean other than the many

that have been completely eradicated?

[thebigidea]

103. as opposed to Israel somehow facing "Holocaust II" as you put it...

that somehow ISN'T the height of exaggeration and propaganda?

Oh yes! I forgot: comparisons are only valid when you make them.

[bpilgrim]

115. ever heard of ghettos?

sure you have

peace

[RapidCreek]

87. You are hilarious

I guess they'd go back to Miami and New York or France or Germany or Russia or Poland.....you know...where they came from.

RC

[Muddleoftheroad]

95. Back where they came from?

How about those hundreds of thousands who were ethnically cleansed by the Arabs?

Or those millions ethnically cleansed in Europe?

Your post is offensive.

[DoYouEverWonder]

60. Thank you

This is an issue that needs to be out on the table and discussed.

There are all kinds of people in this world. Some people are black and some people are white. Some people are christian and some people are jewish. Some people are young and some people are old. Some people are good and some people are bad.

Ariel Sharon is a bad person. He happens to be Jewish. George Bush is a bad person. He happens to be an anglo-saxon Christian.

Every person should be judged as individuals. As soon as we start connecting one bad individual as the symbolic representative of an entire culture, we start to make a lot of arguments and assumptions that are just plan stupid.

Just because I 'hate' (I really try not to) people like Sharon and Bush, doesn't mean that I 'hate' every Jew on the planet. Heck, my 1st husband was a Jew.

So again, thank-you MoPaul. Your cartoons always say more than I could ever hope to with words.

[Moderator]

117. Locking......

All discussions about the I/P situation belong
in the I/P forum.

Thank you for understanding.

DU Moderator