If by "America" you mean the majority living here now, then I hate America

[skjpm]

If by "America" you mean the vision of the Founding Fathers, then I love America. But it's hard to keep that vision in front of me when the majority of "Americans" are fundamentalist, fascistic, homophobic, racist, sexist, ignorant, American Idol-loving morons who think Bush is a strong leader. I think that the America I love is beyond retrieval because it would take more than a new President, it would take a re-awakening of a whole group of stupid people who don't want re-awakening. Bush didn't destroy America. Americans who had no idea of the wonderful country they were given destroyed America, and will continue to destroy it whether Kerry is elected or not.

Should I stay? Would you counsel someone to stay in an abusive relationship and hope that the person will stop hitting them if they can just reach the person somehow?

[salinen]

1. fundamentalist, fascistic, homophobic, racist, sexist, ignorant, American

will remain in a Kerry administration. America of the Founding Fathers is dead.

[teach1st]

2. Not stupid fascists

I believe that most people are not stupid fascists. I personally know some wonderful people who support Bush. These people work hard to support their families, donate time to charity, and are against clear injustice. But most of their time is spent outside the political realm, and a quick glance at the headlines or one-half hour watching cable news may not be enough to convince them Bush isn't a good president.

It's possible to be wrong without being stupid.

[donsu]

24. disagree - rational people recoginize criminals

nt

[troublemaker]

35. Is this a joke? n/t

[leftofthedial]

39. I knew some *wonderful* people who were strong supporters

of the Nazi Party.

They gave to charity, worked hard, and held marvelous little soires at their homes.

Please!

Support for Bush is 100% qualification for the "stupid fascist" label.

Good Germans, good bushgang supporters. Same difference.

One of two things allows one to support the bushgang:

Willful ignorance of the evil being done. Willful ignorance = stupid.

or

Complicity in the evil. Complicity = fascist.

[DemLikr]

49. What you describe = willful ignorance = stupidity.

I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that, based on this description, the majority of Americans are STUPID.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[doni_georgia]

5. I agree - those you describe are a LOUD minority

[laura888]

6. I agree completely with your assessment

the media at the moment is just another wing of the white house.

But I do question the popularity of Limbaugh - who spews hatred. Why do a lot of these upright, generous americans love Limbaugh?

[donsu]

25. try finding someone that is not a racist

try finding a man that is not a misogynist

[walmartsucks]

32. That almost sounds like

Guilty until proven innocent. You're a man, you must be a misogynist. You're a person, you must be a racist. Am I understanding you correctly?

[wyldwolf]

4. ..as Michael Moore says, the majority of Americans agree with us..

[skjpm]

8. I'm glad some of you live in the shiny, happy America

but I'm surrounded by ignorant morons. I can't imagine people watching their young people die in a useless war and not standing up. I can't imagine people knowing our bombs are falling on children and not standing up.

[wyldwolf]

10. well, yeah, I live in Freeperville, too.. but...

...as a whole, the US takes a more liberal view of issues.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RafterMan]

9. The majority of the founding fathers

were racist, sexist and quite likely homophobic. Yet the distance of history has allowed you to overlook that and see only their strengths.

Maybe you should take another look at your neighbors.

[skjpm]

12. I am--what people are you looking at?

Why is it so hard to admit that the majority of Americans are creeps? America should be a different kind of country--The Founding Fathers, whatever their own limits, set in motion a country that should, by now, be a beacon to the world. But Americans, particularly this generation, have destroyed that vision with their ignorance. Who are your neighbors? What are they doing? Do they calmly watch the children die on TV and then switch to Idol? That's what my nieghbors do.

Umm... I need to run some errands, but I'll come back to this thread. I never know how to keep a thread going.

[wyldwolf]

14. why is it so hard to admit that the majority of Americans are creeps?

Because they're not.

Prove otherwise.

[RafterMan]

28. Who you look at

is less important than how you look at them.

I'm sure when you find your ideal community, it won't take you long to become outraged by their entirely different set of defects that you hadn't even considered before.

Happy trails.

[david_vincent]

11. It's not America you hate

it's Americans. I think you have an excellent point about the sheer
idiocy of those who ascribe to the antidemocratic attitude of "you're
either with us or against us" since the advocacy of such a position,
commonly held by those who believe themselves to be patriots, only
reveals the adherent to be unworthy of the liberty they enjoy in this
country, and claim to understand and love.
I disagree with any contention that such people have not been in evidence throughout our history. I also have to point out that their
numbers are not as great as you might think; they tend to be very
outspoken and their self-righteousness and closedmindedness can easily lend them a false image of being more numerous than is really the case. Many, many Americans are neither loud nor extreme about their political views, and want mostly to be left in peace and security and have the chance to prosper, and I think that these moderates act as a keel to prevent the body politic from tilting too far to either side.
As for leaving: many people already have. Many others are making plans to leave if Gov. Bush is elected. It's a personal choice and it should
be made only after a great deal of research into possible destinations and sober reflection on the nonexistence of earthly paradise. My guess is that unless Kerry wins, there will be a noticeable exodus of talented, valuable people to other countries, and there are probably a lot of DUers who are considering it.

[Selwynn]

13. Blame instutitions not people. It's like the matrix; people not ready

...I agree with you, even down to the point of pointing out the ignorance of most people and need for a re-awakening. But rather than getting angry at common everyday people, I see them more as oppressed by the structure of society in which the primary aim is to keep the people pacified, subdued, ignorant and disengaged. It is a structure built on propaganda and pacification, and both sides Republicans and Democrats contribute to it.

Our biggest problems are institutional problems, and right now I hate our institutions and believe that they essentially betray the best ideals for a great society. I don't go around worshiping the founding fathers either, for they had their own class-based agenda as well.

But institutional criticism is a good thing, and recognizing that the institutions oppress the people is a good thing. But looking in hatred and anger toward the ignorant people instead of seeing them with compassion and as victims does more harm than good. Attack the institutions of oppression, indoctrination and pacification. Reexamine American ideologies that are spoon fed to the public. Be angry even, at the effects of ignorance on the nation.

But to cross that line and let that translate into a disdain for, hatred of, or sense of superiority over everyday folk. We are all in this together, and we're no better than anyone else.

(It's kind of like the matrix. :) Some of these people aren't ready t be unplugged. In that movie, I never saw those plugged into the matrix as the enemy, even though they were completely blind to what was really going on. I saw the people behind that control mechanism as the real villains.)

[Bombtrack]

15. That is pretty sad that you think like that

that everyone who's politics displease you, you HATE. And you believe a majority of this country are racist sexist homophobes. The majority of this country are women. Are they racist SEXIST homophobes? I'lll ignore the fascistic comment right now, because it's too stupid to get into. Throwing around the word fascism really demeans it's meaning and of course you could say that same thing about racism and homophobia and sexism as well.

[Zorra]

16. You forgot bloodthirsty. This group you are speaking of

loves the war and rejoices over every death and injury to any Iraqi or other Arabs. These people are so sick I would not be surprised if it gave them a secret thrill every time an American soldier was killed, in the same way that the crowds in the Roman coliseums were thrilled by combat and death.

Anything for a little "entertainment". Some sadistic rush.

Look at all the violence and blood that is on television and movies.

Entertainment.

I agree with you. A large number of Americans are very, very sick.
But it is not the majority.

[IronLionZion]

17. Bullshit!

The true majority is not like that. You're really cynical and pessimistic. The assholes just happen to be louder and get more media exposure.

[hellboy]

18. According to Randi Roades, 30% of americans vote Republican

and the rest of america is either independent or democrat. So your blanket accusation of america being right wingnuts is inherently false.

[tabernash]

47. Classification of Republicans....

Classifying republicans only as right wingnuts whom are inherently fascistic, sexist, racist, etc is inherently wrong. These detrimental qualities are not limited to certain sectors or divisions of society. Rather, they are limited to all humankind. You will find racists, sexists, religous fundamentalists, etc among all individuals, even democrats, liberals, independents, etc.

<b><b>
I am sure there are republicans with these reprehensable qualities. I am also sure there are independents and democrats and liberals with these ever so reprehensable qualities.

[saracat]

19. I question

the inclusion of American Idol.I find Idol hilarious and display none of the traits discussed in the post.I do , however agree with your opinion otherwise. I have stated for a long time that I do not care for Americans.Their current stupidity is unfathomable. I find the fact that in the faceof mounting eveidence they can have anyfaith at all in the Rat Bastard in the WH remarkable.The American diconnect is spectacular.I am ashamed to be an American!

[riverwalker]

20. agree with skjpm

but you have to stay! Americans have a rep for being incredibly dumb. Go any where in the world and it is a standing joke. Most can't even find other countries on a map, and know nothing of history. It's our ignorance that makes us so dangerous, because we don't even know how stupid we really are. There have been times when returning to this culture has left me totally depressed. It's seems more insane when you leave it for a while, and look at it with a different perspective. It can be like entering an insane asylum.

[forgethell]

21. If that's how I felt,

I would get out now. While I had the chance. DO NOT stay and try to make things better, it's hopeless. Kerry can't help; Bush can't help. America is going to hell and taking the world down with it.

Hope you feel better soon, though.

;-)

[specimenfred1984]

22. Wait Until After Election 2004

If chimpy gets selected again, we're all in big trouble. The fascists you describe will start doing more than just voting, the "brownshirts" will be coming after people.

And the people like us will oppose them with whatever means necessary.

It'll then get ugly, real ugly.

[Hamlette]

23. 70% of Americans supported Clinton at height of impeachment trial

in part because he was being treated unfairly.

We are not all racist morons and we get it right sometimes or in the end. (not sure which)

Its another thing to think about when going after Bush. If we make it too personal does bush get sympathy because the opposition is being unfair? I think it is a risk and we might be seeing it happen in last weeks polls.

[pop goes the weasel]

26. You should definitely leave

You will have a hard time finding your utopia where everyone sits around the camp fire at night, singing kum-ba-ya and playing with puppies, but go right ahead and start looking. I don't think you will have much luck since you can't even see the good things that are all around you right now.

Here's some good things I have seen or heard of locally just this past year:

-A mixed race group of adults and children, splashing in the local swimmin' hole that only poor folk go to

-A local auto parts dealer who told me how to find cheap used parts, even though it means that I will be buying fewer parts from him

-My white Republican neighbor taking home a poor black man whose motorized wheelchair had broken down in front of my house (I personally can't lift grown people)

-Several sets of strangers helping my disabled daughter with a very stubborn flat tire

You know, some of these people may have been racists. Or homophobic. Or sexist. Since this is a rural area, they were almost definitely fundamentalist and ignorant. They may even watch American Idol and enjoy it. But they are still trying to build their community, and still trying to do their best by their fellow man as well as they know how. And that is the America I love, generous, friendly, and compassionate.

[betty_booop]

40. thanks

the rest of this thread was getting depressing

[WillyBrandt]

27. It must be lonely at the top of the mountain, eh?

The nation trembles at your superiority... Ugh, what nonsense.

[kodi]

29. the thin air up there can cause dementia too

dont be too hard on 'em willy, its just another wave of teenage angst that sweeps over the site from time to time.

[mr blur]

30. Hate?

It seems to me that there's always been a great deal of self-satisfaction involved in the idea of being "American". Perhaps a little self-hate would be therapeutic?

[bacchant]

31. Do what you want,

go where you want, live where you want. It's American.

[mr blur]

38. It's not just American

You people didn't invent these concepts. You don't own them. 'God' didn't give them to you. You're just the same as everyone else and surely your seeming inability to recognise this is a large part of the problem here.

[bacchant]

48. I sort of figured my comment could be misconstrued

Americans pride themselves on their freedom of choice (a fallacy), but the author of this thread would punish those for exercising the choice to live elsewhere. A little irony, that's all.

[Pax Argent]

33. Your anger comes from the fact you love a myth

Even while they were declaring that all men are created equally and that all men should be equal before the law the nascent US was engaged in the slave trade. The myth of the founding fathers being any different is just that, a myth. The founding fathers were men of great vision, but they were men none the less.

The way I see it, the American people have struggled for two hundred plus years to advance themselves towards the founding fathers' vision of who we can be. We have fought wars both against others and amongst ourselves and our nation has sacrificed blood towards these visions. Society has become more equal (at least racially, ethnically, and sexually; don't get me started on economic circumstance), and the American people deserve some credit for these changes.

I look around me every day and I see good people, sometimes deluded by the media, sometimes deluded by themselves and I realize that evaluating people against a mythical society isn't fair. Myths and visions exist in vacuums unaffected by realities on the ground. Real people aren't so lucky.

I try to teach them when I can and try not be angry with them. I have varying degrees of success in both endeavors. We all live in a very large world that changes far faster than we can keep up with and most of us are scared. If you lack the patience to make things better, withdrawing is always an option. However, if you value the visions of the founding fathers, staying and fighting for them in a compassionate manner is also an option.

The decision is yours.

[Mari333]

34. Ive been having the same emotions about being here

They already took my kid to Iraq, they could take my other kids if Bush gets back in.
I keep bringing it up to my husband about leaving, Im tired, I dont feel like this is my country anymore. Where I live, a GOP area, might have something to do with how I feel.
But if the majority of US citizens prefer fascism, and prefer to send over 700 kids to die for nothing, and prefer to allow the massacre of thousands of people, WTF am I doing here?
My husband says it will cost too much to leave. I say I could sell the house everything in it and just go. My house is paid for, I hate this area, I hate the people around me, and I have already been thru hell with a kid in Iraq. I am so caught in between leaving and staying. My husband wants to stay, I want to leave.
This is causing us a lot of concern and terror, in every way.
I dont want to be a part of a country that embraces fascism.

[laylah]

36. You have been through

such a troubled time, Marie, what with Michael's deployment, those harrassing phone calls, uncertainty about your son's safety, and on and on. :hug: My thoughts are with you. I don't blame you for wanting to leave but it would be a sad day...you have been a force to be reckoned with, with a strenghth I find admirable, and a determination to be proud of. You would be missed.

Jenn

[Mari333]

37. we have all been thru a rough time

I know. Think of all the mothers and fathers who had to see their children come home in a coffin. think of all the people who suffer every day and cant feed their kids. Think of all the jobs people lost, the daily grind of hell people go thru. Think of it all. I am not the only one, but I am a mother. And I am 52. I am angry, overwhelmed all the time, and tired of my own neighbours deciding to attack me when I go anywhere. Townspeople who vent their own anger on me and my husband when we go out, like the truck that pulled around us yesterday and flipped us the finger, even with a kid in Baghdad.
I dont understand why I would want to continue to live in this place, even in this country, where so many people refuse to see the truth, and wont even look for it.
They are still buying the propoganda.
and if there are people here who think like I do, they are afraid to speak out or support us.
They keep a low profile, and can change the channel on this war.
Thats why the draft seems to be the only thing, imo, that will wake them up.
But I dont want to wait around and see if my own kids get drafted.
I want to leave, and my instincts keep telling me I need to.

[saracat]

42. WOW Mari333

I can't imagine what it would be like to have a kid in Bagdad. I have no kids and I am feeling the same as you.And my husband says the same.We can't afford it. I say we can't afford not to ,if it comes to that.Since Bush took office, my husband was outsourced after 26 years, just a year and one half short of being vested for health insurance.He went into business for himself but hasn't made any money and we are living on the remainder of a severence package. And may I add, we both lost retirement and investments in the recession.I wanted to get out in 2000, when they took our vote away. It appears we waited too long.I will wait a little longer till after the election and will revisit this question.I don't think there are many choices though.

[pop goes the weasel]

43. You are one of the good things about America

I am sorry that you are living in such a narrow minded enclave that doesn't have the capacity recognize how lucky they are to have real freedom fighters living amongst them. Soldiers fight for national sovereignty, but it takes the mothers and fathers and siblings and friends of soldiers back home to keep freedom ringing. I salute you.

[BeHereNow]

41. My number one reason for leaving:

I do not want my tax dollars to further
perpetuate the horror my government
is inflicting on other peoples of the world.
in my name.
We appear to have no representation
in our Congress or Senate leaders to stop
the unending flow of our money into the
military industrial complex.
I do am not willing to go to prison for NOT
paying my taxes and have no delusions about
the fact that i have no voice in how my tax
money is used.
Therefore, I see no other solution than to
extricate myself from the economic system
that is fueling the endless war, which means
leaving the US.
My second reason it the incredible
arrogance and ignorance of our citizenry.
Sadly, I see it even here, at DU.
BHN

[skjpm]

44. "Your dad's not drinking and your mom's not hitting you, so shut up"

I feel like America has become a huge alcoholic family. I just don't get the people here who want to paint a rosy picture of this country. I don't see it. And I feel like I am the sober brother who sees what's going on and is constantly silenced. "You think you're better than us, bro? You're just as bad as the rest of us." I never said I was better, just sober. I don't feel superior, I feel sad and scared. I wish the country was different, but this is the country I see, and I don't want to pretend anymore.

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

45. being gay gives me a different take on this, I think.

I can see that a lot of the world is a heck of lot more hostile to gays & lesbians than the USA,

But, I can also bits of the western world (northern Europe, actually) is alot more tolerant and accepting than America, too.

Although the gays won a USSC victory with the overturning of sodomy laws, it looks like a new wave of "official homophobia" is about to start up again with the gay marriage thing....

[tabernash]

46. are americans really sexist, racist, fascistic, etc.??

I am disgusted by your intolerance for americans that do not think like you. What makes America great is its Diversity: Not just diversity of culture, religion and race( I hate that word, it is so outdated), but diversity of opinion.

Not all americans think like eachother. If they did, we might as well be a North Korea or live in The USSR 30 years ago or NAZI Germany.

Sure, some americans may be fascistic, homophobic, racist, sexist, ignorant, etc but we must accept them. And they are hardly the majority. Maybe to you they may seem like the majority because they do not think like you.

Tab.

[bacchant]

50. Me thinks the battle for this country is already over

I just watched an hour and a half of morning news on several stations and no mention of the largest march in US history. How is that even possible? How much you wanna bet the foreign press picked it up. If the truth is dead here, I don't wanna live here anymore.

[Minstrel Boy]

51. "Take your power back, or take the blame"

One of the saddest songs, and most truthful, about today's America: "United States" by Seize the Day. Two versions can be downloaded here: http://www.seizetheday.org/UnitedStates.htm

From "United States":

It could've been Manhattan on the day the market fell
And it could've been a candy-store in Kandahar as well
And she might have been a Moslem, but it's kind've hard to tell
When your body's ground to zero and your skin's been fried to hell

...

America, my family, the whole world feels your pain …
And before this war is over, you'll make sure we do again.
Even as the tower tumbled on that fire-fighting team
We wondered who you'd barbecue for puncturing your dream

So tell me it's the war to end all war, or don't tell me nothin'
'Cos if this sacrifice don't change the world, it was not worth making.
Seems to me, you did your best to put your hand in the hornet-nest that bit you -
When will it hit you - There's other people need as much as you.
And greed is no excuse for what you do.

You're beautiful, big-hearted, and in many ways you're free
And you're smart enough to get the world how you want it to be
So it's hard for me to tell you what you shouldn't have to hear:
Your nation is that terrorist most human beings fear.

Nicaragua, El Salvador, Columbia and Nam,
Cambodia, Grenada, Chile, and Afghanistan,
Palestinian and Iraqi, and some more you never knew -
A united states of people who deserved as much as you

So tell me that you don't support this war, or don't tell me nothin'
'Cos if this song of mine don't change your heart, then it was not worth singing.
But I believe you did your best, chasing life and happiness,
Never wondered never guessed, how the news had been suppressed
Of a never-ending killing-fest, rip the kid from the Mama's breast,
Shrapnel thru her daddy's chest while we're all singing "Glory Hallelujah!"
I'm talking to ya -
Somebody made a killing in your name.
So take your power back, or take the blame.