My Problems with Christianity.

[coloradodem2005]

I am not trying to denegrate christianity it is more an indictment of how people screw it up.

I told you about my experiences at church, well, I will continue from here. From what I see, it seems that some people that run churches count on misery. They want people to be unhappy because they think that if they are unhappy, it will bring them closer to God. Around 1998-99, the ministers at the church I went to talked about how the economy and morality had a negative corellation with each other. "Economically, things have never been so good. Morally, things have never been so bad." I am not entirely sure what they are saying now, but I had been there once or twice and they seem more positive. Especially with a bad economy and one of their own in office.

Furthermore, when things go bad, you are always supposed to smile and give it up to God. Even my good friend who is a christian knows it is not that simple. I really don't know what God's master plan is, if he has one but I don't know why it would have to involve so much misery, including, in recent years, the 9/11 tragedy, and this stupid Iraq war that has claimed over 700 u.s. solider's lives, not to mention thousands of Iraqis. Why?

Also, on forgiveness, you should forgive anyone who wronged you, even if they don't apologize. But why can you be banished to hell if you don't have a certain conception of God or if you don't pray for your sins? If forgiveness is a big thing, there should be no hell.

Now there are some really good examples of christians out there. Jimmy Carter comes to mind. I couldn't think of a much better example of a good christian. THe problem I have is that for every Jimmy Carter I see, I see 10 George W. Bush's waiting in the wings. Again, I ask why? I know that I have developed a cynisism over many things, including Christianity. But I get tired of the damned hypocrisy and the self-righteousness. And referring back to my first paragraph, the tactics of the evangelical/fundamentalists of using fear to get people sucked into something are exactly the tactics that George W. Bush has been using on us for the last 3 years. No wonder I have become so cynical about Christianity. For people that are christians on this forum, please don't get angry with me. I am sure that you are fine examples of what a Christian should be.

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

1. A psych defense against the inevitability and finality of death

Belief in an afterlife is a comforting thought for those who can't deal with the prospect that their brief existence is all there is. It's far easier to deal with life's inequities, if you can delude yourself into thinking that your suffering will pay off in the end (e.g., heaven).

JB

[coloradodem2005]

2. Maybe.

But I would like to think that there is something beyond all of this, I just don't like how evangelicals/fundamentalists portray it.

[PurityOfEssence]

14. Okay, but how far are you willing to go for that comfort?

Many are just fine with marginalizing anyone who gets in the way of their immortality fantasy, and feel fully justified to crush any contrary opinion.

My chief problem with Christianity is the extreme selfishness at its core: the prime action of one in this religion is to make sure his/her ass is safe and the ultimate reward assured. That negates much of the good of some of the teachings. The mechanism is also extremely anti-social: in Catholicism, you can literally lay waste and kill as long as you make it up to "the man" and do the penance; this gives an "out" to do pretty much as one pleases. (It also doesn't do a damn thing for the person or people you wronged, it just saves your greedy little neck.)

Most religions are problematic in this way; you can't have an "us" without a "them", and if you scratch the surface with many believers, you'll find a prejudice that non-believers are pretty much fair game to do with as one pleases. Some religions actively demonize the others, thus making it good to cause them harm.

Religious faith is a classic example of not playing fair; others must justify their actions, while the believer's are good by definition. (Okay, not perfect, just forgiven, as the obnoxious slogan goes.) That;s why it's separated from religion: it's inherently anti-democratic, since it makes some people aristocrats, whose opinions are unassailable.

The bottom line is that the belief system fosters and indeed creates far too much ugly behavior. It's basically the double-O license to do as one pleases with head held high. Belief in an afterlife destroys the sanctity and respect for life and allows for asymmetric suicide attacks that are virtually impossible to prevent in anything but a very strict police state.

For all the comfort brought by concepts like the guiding hand and final reward, the agonies that these concepts are used to create and sustain far outweighs the benefits in my mind.

For all the good, Christianity is based on personal selfishness and a distinct dislike of the unknown and nuance; no wonder conservatives flock to it.

[coloradodem2005]

16. Well...

Not even close to as far as some go. I definitely agree with some of your points. Sometimes the whole master plan thing just makes things worse. As for belief in the afterlife, I don't think that it necessarily is the concept of afterlife that is bad. People corrupt it. THey corrupt it with the belief that life is not worthwhile. It is quite scary that people will push it that far that murder and suicide are okay, but I most certainly am not.

My point is, that you cannot always blame the concept of something. Because a lot of concepts like the afterlife are good concepts, but people fuck with them. THey corrupt them.

[NashVegas]

30. I think you're off about Catholicism

in one area, in a major way.

in Catholicism, you can literally lay waste and kill as long as you make it up to "the man" and do the penance; this gives an "out" to do pretty much as one pleases.

As it was taught to me, there is an emphasis on "making good." Not just to the big cheese, but also towards the person you screwed over. As kids, none of us really believed a few Hail Marys were going to set everything right, it was a rote thing and we knew it.

Looking back (I'm not a practicing Catholic, was never confirmed and frankly border on atheism), I think the real point of confession was that once you say it out loud, whatever the offense is, you are forced to deal with it.

[Union Thug]

3. agreed...

futhermore, it has a tendency to pacify people into thinking that the corrupt will be dealt with in the afterlife and provides no motivation for them to confront injustices directly. I was once told by an evangelical nutcase to back off a confrontation with an employer (that was essentially running an immigrant worker based childcard sweatshop). I was told that God will punish them in the end and we should just let god deal with this person.

Um. No.

[coltman]

12. Yep religion by whatever ....

denomination so long as it is organized is basically a cult used for control of the masses.Get over it grow up move on.Find something to believe in that doesn't kill.

[No2W2004]

20. that is ancient,

all the way back in history we find:

"if I'm a good little pesant and work hard to make the king more powerful and the church more powerful then I will be rewarded in the afterlife."

over and over and over. "Don't worry about how hard your life is now compared to the wealthy, you'll have everything you ever desired in heaven."

It's just surprising people are still falling for this crap.

[oneighty]

24. And the meek shall inherit the earth.

Yas sir bossman. I believes.

180

[Selwynn]

4. My Christian faith has nothing to do with an "afterlife."

[bruce21040]

10. On the contrary

Being a Christian, and believing in Christ has a drawback or two.

I'm not perfect, I do things, or have done things that would be considered sins in the Bible.
If I believed that all there was in death was non-existence, it would be much easier to accept. After all, if that was the case, I would not care that I was dead now would I? and to top it off, I would probably do many things that I sinfully think to do, but am afraid to do because of the afterlife with Christ that I know is coming.

No, I think that the prospect of answering for all I do now when I die is a terrifying proposition.

But, I will reap what I sow.

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

28. Actually, altruism and moral behavior doesn't require a religion.

Eventhough, there is no afterlife or immortality, that doesn't mean that individuals can act without regard to others. The guiding force for moral behavior and social stewardship should be a focus on improving the human condition and the future of one's offspring, not a fear of eternal damnation or glorification.

We should be working to improve our world and take advantage of the gift of life while we have it...all the while, respecting our fellow human beings.

Hmmmm, funny...this sounds like the teachings of a certain son of god.

JB

[Christ was Socialist]

5. The book of revelation

is pure hogwash, it has been proven for the last 600 years. In fact early leaders didn't want it included, that single damn book most of all has totally screwed up the world. In fact revelations already came, it was a secret letter about nero(666). I am a gnostic christ follower, and i have read all the excluded apocolytic works and they are much better. In fact there is a secret to them. When peter felt sympathy for those in hell, christ revealed to him, they don't stay. But the church leaders felt there was no reason to be "righteous" if there was no eternal punishment. But i'm not a believer in hell.

read some gnostic (knowledge) texts
www.gnosis.org

3) Jesus said: If those who lead you say to you: See, the kingdom is in heaven, then the birds of the heaven will go before you; if they say to you: It is in the sea, then the fish will go before you. But the kingdom is within you, and it is outside of you. When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will know that you are the sons of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you are in poverty, and you are poverty.

gospel of thomas saying 3

[DAGDA56]

7. Thanks for the post/links...I've always been bothered...

...by a "redacted" bible.

[coloradodem2005]

21. That looks like it has a wealth of knowledge.

Should be very informative.

[Wright Patman]

6. Just got back from church

and I have to say you make some very excellent points. And I wasn't at just any church. I was at a fundy Baptist church in Texas.

And, yes, it is not wise for someone with my outlook to discuss politics with these folk.

To answer just one of your questions, if everyone would ask forgiveness and forgive everyone all the time, I don't think there would be a need for a place called hell.

I basically believe a person's own actions send him or her to hell. I think waging an unprovoked war in which countless thousands of civilians are killed may well qualify, ESPECIALLY if this person claimed to know the Lord before doing so.

I believe that a large number of churchgoers may well be sending themselves there by their actions and probably a similar number of non-churchgoers, conversely, are living lives pleasing to the Creator in spite of such nonattendance at a so-called "house of worship."

[DAGDA56]

8. If THIS is Hell...as I've heard some people express...

...I have to wonder what I must have done to end up here.

[bruce21040]

11. Perhaps

You voted a straight republican ticket all of your past life?:spank:

[DAGDA56]

15. Yep...that would do it...

...I can see me stumping for Cooledge,Harding, Hoover and then being sent back for another chance...until I get it right.

[skjpm]

9. Read Marcus Borg or John Spong

Both present what I think is closer to true Christianity in clear ways. You might read Paul Tillich, Karl Rahner, or Hans Kung if you want a more scholarly approach. Or, when all else fails, read the Gospels and decide for yourself. The problems you discuss are there, but not everywhere. Try the Episcopal, United Methodist, or Lutheran (ELCA) church--see what they say about your concerns. You'll be pleasantly surprised.

[msmcghee]

22. You say . . .

" . . . if everyone would ask forgiveness and forgive everyone all the time, I don't think there would be a need for a place called hell."

That much forgiving implies a lot of sinning. If I forgive the drunk driver who killed my wife does he go to heaven just because I forgave him?

[Wright Patman]

27. No, it has nothing to do with the drunk driver

The drunk driver's trangression is between him and God.

I believe it would be well for your soul if you could forgive him, but that has nothing to do with his soul and his standing before God.

Jesus has forgiven us our sins. He realizes we are all sinners.

He has also told us to forgive those who sin against us. I have done so and will continue to do so and will try not to sin against others myself.

[Dirty Hippie]

13. I once won an argument with a Christian

who pined for the old days when America was more "moral". I replied that it sure wasn't more "moral" for African Americans, Native Americans, women who could not report abuse, children who were worked like slaves, immigrants etc.. In fact, it may have only been "better" for rich white men.

Surprisingly, he agreed with me.

It just burns me up when religious types piss and moan about how "immoral" society is today.

[Selwynn]

18. I piss and moan about how immoral society is today, however...

...the difference is, I don't assume it was more moral at some other point in time, and my concerns are about who is sleeping with who, or who exercises their free speech in ways I don't like - my concerns are about the continuing structures of oppression and inequality, the elevation of concern for profit and power for the privilege few on the back of and at the expense of the many, my concerns are for social and economic equality, liberation of the oppress and the "struggle to help anyone, regardless of race or nationality, achieve a decent life"(Zinn). I moan about our "immorality" because we don't do those things as well as we could do them today.

Perahps if I had been the Christian you had talked to, you would have found yourself suprised to agree with me. :hug:

[Selwynn]

17. Your problems with one manifestation of "Christianity"

From what I see, it seems that some people that run churches count on misery.

Some people do that, yes. Others don't. Others like me have not been to an organized church institution in many years, yet not a day goes by in which my spiritual faith is not at the front of my mind and on my heart. Some of the best "church" experiences I have come in long conversations with my parents or friends, in which we share our hearts and encourage each other to keep hungering and thirsting after great love, deeper compassion, more tenderness and sensitivity toward the needs of others, the fight for social justice and peace, and our inward joy.

Furthermore, when things go bad, you are always supposed to smile and give it up to God. Even my good friend who is a Christian knows it is not that simple.

Many people both Christians and non-Christians alike know it is not that simple. Christians like me don't identify with your assertion that when things go wrong we are supposed to "smile" and give it up to God. This is why I am often frustrated and frequently alienated when people make all of nothing claims about Christianity. There is no one "Christianity." There are instead, countless numbers of people who have in some way been impacted by Christian tradition - some in positive ways, some in not so positive ways.

I really don't know what God's master plan is, if he has one but I don't know why it would have to involve so much misery, including, in recent years, the 9/11 tragedy, and this stupid Iraq war that has claimed over 700 u.s. soldier's lives, not to mention thousands of Iraqis. Why?


The question of theodicy "if there is a God and he is all-powerful and good, then why is there so much suffering" has a long and complicated history. I'm not going to try to answer the question for you, however you're wrong to assume all Christians believe exclusively in the categories of classical theism. If for example there is some metaphorical truth in a statement like God is love, then by defining that as an essential and absolute characteristic of God, it excludes its opposite - in other words, God can't be what is not love, God can't be non-God, etc. What I know of love is that it is uncoercive, it can't be coercive and be love. You can't put a gun to someone's head and say "love me" and expect it to happen. Perhaps the "creation" of the world was not so much a controlled, determined enterprise with God's "master plan" in place and a clear end in sight. Perhaps creation is a risk, the invitation of the divine toward creatures to move into relationships of love and compassion, the "lure" of God toward those things which are best - but perhaps because of the very limits of uncoerced love we are free, indeed radically free to choose against love, choose against life, choose against God.

In Western society we seem to always imagine the highest kind of power as the power of force, coercion, control, etc. I challenge that assumption, and ask if persuasion, invitation, and willingness to risk it all on free response isn't greater. You don't have to be convinced. I'm not writing to convince you. And I'm not really writing to get into a debate. I am writing to point out that your problems with "Christianity" don't reflect a lot of Christians. Christian's like me think that we blame God for a lot of things that we should be blaming ourselves for, think that a 10 year old girl who is raped and murdered has not died "because of God's plan" but because of the refusal of certain human beings to respond to the lure of God's love and choose differently. Some Christians believe that not everything in life is God's plan/will whatever you want to call it. And yet, there is a message of hope in all of that, even after the acknowledgment that God doesn't not coercively control the world, therefore some things happen apart from God's desires.

But getting into that teleological message is for some other time. :) Don't lose sight of my point - I'm not here to argue over what's right or wrong, religion vs. non-religion, one theology vs. another. I'm just here to point out that your "problem with Christianity" is actually a problem with one interpretation of Christian faith, and there are many.

But why can you be banished to hell if you don't have a certain conception of God or if you don't pray for your sins? If forgiveness is a big thing, there should be no hell.

Not all Christians believe in a liberalized hell - some believe that life without embracing a relationship to God and understanding that love is a "hell on earth." Others may believe in a final hell not as fire and brimstone, but as final death - the vanishing into nothingness, instead of some kind of afterlife. Still others may believe that there is a kind of hell, but that it is not God who arbitrarily sends people there in judgment. In their mind, God is always and forever inviting people to turn away from that end, and in the final analysis there would be no one in hell who didn't ultimately choose to go there, but understanding a clear alternative and refusing, by personal choice to take it.

Once again, I'm not here to get into a big discussion on which of those (if any) are right. I'm just pointing out you are falsely reducing concepts and applying them to "Christianity" in general when there are plenty of Christians would wouldn't agree with or identify with your definitions.

Christian faith is personal. That's the bottom line. Insofar as institutions try to systematize it and absolutize it, it is usually simply a tool for manipulation and control. But for individual people, there is no one "belief system" that can be defined as absolutely Christian. There are many different interpretations. What you have are many people who, for whatever reason, have found some value and usefulness in the stories, and language of religious tradition - but many people interpret those things differently. Oh sure down through the ages different "churches" have tried to define orthodoxy, but that doesn't dismiss the reality of people who find value in spiritual tradition but interpret it in many different ways.

There are many examples of new an very fascinating interpretations of religious tradition.

Charles Hartshorne wrote a book called "Omnipotence and Other Theological Mistakes." Process Theology is incredibly fascinating. Liberation theology and its fundamental concern of social justice and the struggle against oppression is like a breath of fresh air. And Feminist Theology embodies such valuable insights into the subject of personhood, wholeness and equality that anyone - from atheist to fundamentalist - would benefit from study of it.

You can't really have a problem with "Christianity" - its just too broad. You can try to have a problem with "institutional Christianity" but even that is not completely fair - not every church in the world is a bad place. In the end what you can have problems with are specific interpretations of Christian faith. You mention fundamentalist evangelicals for example. I too, have a problem with their particular view of spiritual faith. :) But I don't assume that because I have problem with that view, that all people of Christian faith share the same view they do.

[coloradodem2005]

19. Good post.

a couple of things to say.

1) I was not saying that all christians felt that way but I run into a lot that will say things like that when I am frustrated about things such as not being able to find a job or how I got screwed over with student teaching (story I don't really want to go into) etc. I know that not all are like that, but there seem to be a lot of them out there. I realize that I am coming off as being broad in my talking here, but like I said, I know that there are good christians who know better, but like I said in my original post: It just seems for every Jimmy Carter there SEEMS to be 10 George W. Bush's waiting in the wings. It is somewhat exaggerated but I don't know. I guess I dealt with too many evangelicals. I know that I am talking about one interpretation of Christianity, unfortunately, it seems to be the most dominant interpretation. Like I said, I am not indicting Christianity, and not the people of it, just the most dominant interpretaition of it. As well as the people responsible for it.

I really don't know how I feel anymore. I just know that nothing is all that simple. This is also why I have not gone atheist because I just know that things are really complicated and truth is often stranger than fiction.

[msmcghee]

23. Perhaps some good Christian can explain . .

. what has been told to me as being the essence of the Christian faith.

As I understand it, before Jesus, there was just God and everybody was sinning to beat the band. God said, OK, I screwed up. But now I'll make this Mary gal pregnant (without intercourse), so she she can have my son who will be the "Messiah".

When he's twenty-something I'll set things up so he'll go to Jerusalem and piss off the Romans and their Jewish lackey money changers who will then crucify him. He'll suffer greatly for a while (as per Mel Gibson), but then I'll resurrect him back into heaven to be with me - hoping he isn't too miffed by the experience.

Then, because he suffered so mightily, that will wash away the sins of all the sinners who can then come and live with me in heaven when they die - with or without crucification.

But - they have to believe that all this happened and that I am the real and only God and they have to live by the rules that my followers will immediately start making - or they don't get the pass to heaven. Of course, no human can really live by my rules all the time, so as long as they ask my forgiveness through prayer (or confession if you're Catholic), they still get the heaven pass if they truly believe that I'm the man.

Do I have that right? If so, what possible sense can anyone make of this - or is it just one of those things you have to accept and not ask any questions lest you lose your pass?

This is not an attempt to ridicule Christianity - but a real request for someone to explain to me how this works.

[QC]

25. Take a look at the recent Newsweek cover story

called something like "Why Did Jesus Have to Die?"

It's a very accessible and interesting discussion of different theories of atonement. And yes, there are many theories about what all this means.

[GreenPartyVoter]

26. You see more Jimmy Carters than you will ever realize :)

You just don't recognize us when you see us because we aren't thumping our Bibles.

Would Jesus love a liberal? You bet!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/liberalchristians.htm

[coloradodem2005]

29. You are probably right.

THe thing is the Jimmy Carters don't get up in front of people and say look at me and act holier than thou. But they are less noticable, until you talk to them. These are the kind of christians that I admire and respect.

[salonghorn70]

31. Hey

Coloradodem, check your PM.