Catholics Question Abortion Focus : Address Issues Such as Death Penalty

[G_j]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A41965-2004Apr25?language=printer

Catholics Question Abortion Focus
Some Want Church to Address Issues Such as Death Penalty

By Alan Cooperman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, April 26, 2004; Page A02


A question has been gnawing at Frank A. McNeirney since he read that some Roman Catholic bishops want to deny Communion to Catholic politicians, such as Democratic presidential candidate John F. Kerry, whose public positions are at odds with church doctrine.

"Does this only apply to abortion?" asked McNeirney, 67, of Bethesda. "What about the death penalty?"

After retiring as a trade magazine editor a dozen years ago, McNeirney founded a nonprofit organization, Catholics Against the Death Penalty, which has 1,200 members across the country. It's a mom-and-pop operation, run by McNeirney and his wife, Ellen, out of their home on a shoestring budget. They are the first to acknowledge that it has nowhere near the political clout or public visibility of the nation's antiabortion groups.

But McNeirney is not alone in questioning whether the church's political vision has become myopic, focusing too narrowly on abortion.

..more..

[HawkerHurricane]

1. How about the War in Iraq?

Which the Pope has also denounced.

[tritsofme]

2. IIRC, there is a difference.

I seem to remember that Church doctrine opposes abortion officially, while it is the Pope for himself that opposes things such as capital punishment, and it is not a matter of Church doctrine.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

[TreasonousBastard]

3. Pretty close...

There are doctrines, and there are teachings. Everything the Pope says is not infallible-- only the things he says "ex cathedra," and that doesn't happen all that often. There are many teachings that are not dogmatic, although TPTB generally rain on anyone who openly defies the teachings.

The Roman stance against abortion comes ultimately from their dogma, which lead to the "Seamless Garment" teaching. Although Seamless Garment also teaches against unjust war and the death penalty, just about all violence, only abortion is seen as totally avoidable and always wrong. Other forms of violence are occasionally acceptable, even capital punishment. There are arguments for just war, self-defense, etc., and the question of innocence or guilt comes into play.

Abortion is considered wrong because the fetus is considered a person, with a soul at inception, and killing an innocent person is always wrong. A fetus is always an innocent, so killing one is inevitably a form of murder.

Theologically, from their standpoint it works.

[OC_dem]

4. Typical fundie

nonsense Your right to life ends at birth.

[G_j]

5. absurd isn't it? and since when

is the death penalty infallible?
Since when does war not kill innocents?

[TreasonousBastard]

8. I already mentioned...

that the death penalty is strongly condemned, but it is not dogma. War is also strongly condemned, but Just War theory allows for defense.

The Roman church may or may not have much to answer for in its history, but its current teachings on violence and social action are as far left as any other mainstream church. Except for abortion, where they are stuck with their doctrines and beliefs.

[TreasonousBastard]

7. Not really.

According to Seamless Garment, your right to life is unassailable. It does teach against war and capital punishment, and the teaching itself makes no exceptions. In practice, however, since it is not dogma exceptions occur. Simply put, the Church recognizes that shit happens.

I'm not Catholic, and don't go along with much of what they believe, but this is far from fundie nonsense. It all goes back to the concept of a soul, which is not only not a Christian concept, but not even a religious one. It is entirely possible for an atheist to believe in a soul, and to agree with the basics of Seamless Garment.

[youngred]

11. Please

That's bullshit.

[G_j]

12. it is not literally true

but it is understandable how the obsessive focus on abortion can give that impression to the less informed. Most non-Catholics are not
as aware of Catholic opposition to the death penalty.
Because of the fundie's obsession with abortion they can sometimes get lumped together.
Also IMO, Christianity in general is often comprimised to some degree by the "just war" principal.

[youngred]

14. I know

I'm just tired of the baseless accusations and slams. The priests, bishops and cardinals who behave boorishly and attack the right to choose get all the attention, whereas the Pope's strong stance against the war, the opposition to the Death Penalty, and the church's progressive stance on social issues are often ignored. It's the media and far-right of the church attempting to split the Catholic vote, which is and always was strongly Democratic

[Iris]

13. "always an innocent"?

then why baptize infants?

[youngred]

15. so they won't go to limbo if they die

[Iris]

16. because they are born with sin

[TreasonousBastard]

18. Born in sin, but...

innocent of any guilt or actions.

Theological hairsplitting, but it works for the believers.

[northernsoul]

20. The Church Opposes Death Penalty in almost all situations

However, if a society is facing a situation where the only way they can incapicitate a dangerous criminal is throught execution, then it is excused - but under Church teaching any society that has an option to imprison someone may not execute.

Executions in the modern United States are morally unacceptable to Church Doctrine.

[Quahog]

6. Catholics are not single-issue voters

Also, many Catholics who receive communion every Sunday are in opposition to one dogma or another. How many Catholics would agree with the Vatican that people who practice birth control are commiting a mortal sin? But that's the official line (which is widely, utterly ignored by the Catholic laity).

I've harped on this before, Catholics are not single-issue voters. Most are liberal. Look at the voting records in the most heavily Catholic states, MA and RI. Fundamentalism doesn't thrive here.

The reason the story about one Vatican cardinal saying Kerry shouldn't receive communion is "NEWS" is because it puts Kerry in an awkward position, and therefore the BFEE-controlled media LOVES IT. If every Catholic who expressed views contrary to official church teaching were denied the eucharist, there would be very few Catholics receiving. The history of the church is characterized by this ongoing tension between the leadership in the Vatican and the lay Catholic population, with parish priests working largely as arbiters and peacekeepers. Change in the church has historically trickled UP from the laity, but it is an agonizingly slow process (which is probably why the church survives intact after so many centuries, there is value in it's refusal to sway with the winds of fashion).

The rethugs think that Catholics are now planning to vote for Bush against Kerry, because Kerry is being denied communion (which he isn't, he recieved yesterday and the Sunday prior). But what Catholics I talk with are saying is something along the line proposed in the opening post of this thread: what else might cause us to be denied communion? Has Kerry been excommunicated? And if not, how can he be denied the sacraments of the church? Isn't the whole POINT of the eucharist spiritual healing? How is the healing supposed to happend if the medicine is withheld? And isn't it the responsibility of the communicant to make his or her peace with God before receiving the host? Is the priest supposed to be distributing the eucharist to some who approach the altar while turning away others? How long would the church retain a membership if this were the common practice?

Sure, there are some Opus Dei folks and other conservative fundie nuts in the Catholic church who will carp on this, but they're already voting for Bush. At church yesterday, everyone I talked to was just pissed off at that cardinal.

[TreasonousBastard]

9. Yesterday I...

went to the annual New Jersey Peace Action dinner, and since I didn't mention an organization when I got my ticket, I found myself sitting at a Pax Christi table. And glad I did-- they were great people.

These Catholics, including a priest, had no problem with Kerry at all. They did, however, have a BIG problem with Bush.

As far as I'm concerned, Catholics are not the enemy, but allies in all of this. Hold a truce on abortion, and let's all agree on pretty much everything else.

[G_j]

10. of course

Catholics are not the enemy. As a peace activist I've worked along side many Catholics who are shining example of courage and commitment. I've spent time traveling in buses with nuns and other Catholic activists. The core of the movement to close the SOA is Catholic based. The peace movement has traditionally been enriched and strengthened by Catholics.

I also think most of us are deeply grateful to the Pope for opposing the invasion of Iraq.

[cap]

17. just remember 66% of Catholics are pro-choice...

catholic politicians reflect catholic laity.

[youngred]

19. exactly

its just the loud arsemonkeys who get all the attention.