I'm having trouble clarifying my position on abortion.

[Ladyhawk]

I have a lot of trouble with this because it has to do with the concept of when life begins. I don't believe a zygote is a human being. That seems silly to me. On the other hand, I believe that a living fetus that can feel pain and fear is a human being.

But when exactly does this transformation take place? Third trimester babies can survive if they are born premature. They can feel pain, perhaps even fear. The Catholic Church thinks contraception is immoral. Most fundies think terminating a pregnancy at any stage (even the day after conception) is immoral. Most liberals feel that a woman's right to choose should continue until the baby is born.

Although I care about the rights of women, I don't think I could have marched on Washington today with a clear conscience. Terminating third-trimester pregnancies seems a little close to violating my natural view that we should try very hard to cause no harm. Of course, I am concerned about the mother, too. But when does a person become a person? When does the baby have rights, too? They are too small to speak for themselves.

On the other hand, I have a problems with religious right-wingers who only care about people until they're out of the womb. They don't support sex education. Many don't support contraceptives. They don't care if the woman can afford to raise a child. They whine about "single mothers" and "welfare queens," yet fail to provide the knowledge that could prevent unwanted pregnancies. It's just plain stupid.

[seabeyond]

1. with age time thought

spiritual wakening, being a mom, and looking at our country and how it stands, this is where i have come to. in the religious sense, god gives us free will. in the constititution, freedom from religion. as much as we may hate the idea of abortion, be disgusted, not want it, be offended by it, it is not our place to make the choice of another. it is not a law to be created from the constitution, and it is not ours to make another not do, thru gods free will. and if god trusts in us to give free will surely we should honor it also.

it is for each individual to make the desicion, and it is for the family and church and society to teach our children our views, but it is not the place of government. and that goes with many laws

many dont like guns, and can state all kinds of reasons to outlaw them, again i say, the small percentage of stupid that allow kid to get hold of, the small percentage that use guns to kill others, it is the consequences of living in a free society

[freetobegay]

2. No one says you have to have a abortion.

Heres my take. I hate abortion I loathe it & detest it & for good reason. But who am I to tell a woman that she can't? Bottom line for me is that decision is left up to the woman & her maker.

[Endangered Specie]

3. Abortion is by no means a clean cut issue

There are so many factors: When life begins, governmental regulation of bodies, mother life endangerment, rape etc...


ITs not an easy issue and I dont think anyone could sum up where they draw the line in no less thana few sentences.

[Ladyhawk]

7. This is a good point.

Perhaps it's a good reason to keep the decision out of the hands of government.

The government should legislate against murder, but it's really hard to say just when (if?) abortion becomes murder.

[Endangered Specie]

10. I say, that, alive or not... the fetus is a physically connected...

body part of a woman, just as much as the heart is connected to the body, and the last thing the government should put its nose is peoples bodies.

Therefore, I really dont have much in the way of restricing abortion, just as much as the govt should not be allowed to regulate heart transplants.

However, I still would like to se abortions reduced, because it points to a deeper problem in our society and its a lack of sexual understanding and ->education<-. Ignorance is deadly.

edit: some spelling

[lapislzi]

30. Presumption of viability

I think this is my own idea; I don't know if there's any legal precedent for it. I also want to make clear that this is my opinion and mine alone; I do not and would not presume to make decisions or judgements for others. I believe safe, legal abortions should be available to any woman at any time during a pregnancy. Whether or not it is ethical to abort a fetus is another question.

I believe that sometime during the third trimester there is the "presumption of viability"--that, if delivered, the fetus will probably survive without extraordinary intervention. At that point, if I was a doctor (I'm not), I would feel that it's unethical to perform an abortion unless tests indicated that the mother's life was in danger or the fetus was dangerously ill, deformed, and/or unlikely to survive.

If a woman wanted an abortion for a different reason than the ones I just noted (wanted, as opposed to needed), I would point out that, either way, lady, you're having a procedure. Third trimester abortions are pretty complicated procedures, probably not much different to actual birth. Why not just deliver a live child?

Again, I would never presume to choose for any other person. This is merely my own take on the matter. By the way, I am a woman, I have had an abortion, and I have a child.

So fire away.

[DoNotRefill]

20. Here's the thing about government regulation....

It's a long-standing legal principle that the government cannot force a competent adult to undergo an unwanted medical procedure, even if it results in death. Shouldn't that extend the other way, too? What business is it of the government's to say you CAN'T have a wanted medical procedure?

[alittlelark]

4. I understand your dilemma

I am absolutely pro-choice. My personal belief is that abortion should be simple, free and legal with NO Questions up until the 14-16th wk of gestation. From 16-22 weeks only allowable with counseling (much riskier procedure). After 22 weeks only allowable due to risk of maternal health or deformity.


Just my 2 cents.

[Ladyhawk]

8. This makes sense.

It's a fuzzy issue. At this point I would agree with most of your ideas. I would have trouble with ending a pregnancy because of deformity, but if the parents (mother) can't take care of the deformed child, it becomes everyone's responsibility. A deformed child as a ward of the state...that isn't a pleasant idea. :(

One thing I've learned is that the choice to have an abortion must be an excruciating one for most women who go through with it.

I would probably opt for an early abortion if I became pregnant. I'm too ill to take care of myself. If I had a child, it would probably be raised by family. I wouldn't put a child through that...all that fundy brainwashing. It hurt me so badly, I wouldn't dream of putting a child through it. *shudder* It's one of the reasons I've chosen not to have children. First of all, I'm too ill. Secondly, I wouldn't want to subject a child to fundamentalist dogma. It's very, very harmful.

[alittlelark]

16. My friend's sister (never met her) decided against an abortion at 30

or so weeks, when she found out the baby had hydroencephalitis (no brain). She decided to have the baby as an organ donor. It sounds horrifying to some people, but she decided that an extra 10 weeks was worth the advantage to other babies. She explained it as best she could to her other 2 children.

I share this because there are soooooo many factors to consider. Even a lot of whak-job pro-life-and-death-penalty people would say an abortion is OK in this position.

Incidently, she'd had an abortion in her late teens(her future hubby was the father), without regret.

[blondeatlast]

33. Wow--what a story. There's some moms and dads out there very

grateful for what must have been an incredibly painful decision on your sister's part.

[rucky]

5. You have to separate your personal comfort level

with your legislative comfort level.

there will never be consensus as to when life truly begins, so as long as science is fuzzy about that one, the choice must be left to the individual. it's a terrible choice to have to make (third trimester). I don't think anybody would make that choice unless it were absolutely necessary. it's very rare. i don't believe there is a need to legislate it.

focusing on third trimester is a detraction from the heart of the abortion issue. it may be one of the toughest scenarios to face, but you shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater. sorry. bad analogy, but you know what I mean.

we call ourselves pro CHOICE - not pro abortion.

[Endangered Specie]

12. Indeed, that is a good and often neglected point...

There will always be a difference between what you think is right/wrong, and what should be legal/illegal.

Most pro choice people I know would never have one for a "non life threatining" reason.

[sandnsea]

6. Do you want ME to decide for you???

I didn't think so.

You're perfectly capable of deciding this issue for yourself if/when you should become pregnant. So is every other woman in America.

HEY GEORGE!! Get out of MY BUSH!!

(I just cracked up when I saw that today)

[Ladyhawk]

9. LOL...that is funny! :)

I liked the slogans written all over the cardboard Bush. I liked the "insert socks here" with the arrow pointing to his crotch. Too funny.

[BlueEyedSon]

18. Here ya go....

[wyldwolf]

23. posted in wrong place

[Mattforclark]

11. Life began ~3.8 billion years ago

Since then it has been a continuous process. You're not going to get any answer other than a dogmatic one on when a "transformation" occurs on an individual level. A person doesn't become a person at any one instant, and a person doesn't get rights at any one instant.

[Ladyhawk]

13. Yeah, it seems everyone has a different opinion.

"You're not going to get any answer other than a dogmatic one on when a 'transformation' occurs on an individual level."

If I've learned anything during my adult life, it's this: dogma is dangerous.

[coloradodem2005]

14. I can see a lot of what you say.

Abortion is not a clear cut issue.

On one hand, does a fetus have rights, and on the other hand, what right does the government have to regulate a woman's body? It seems sick to do either in some cases. As for Bush's late term abortion ban, I also feel that it was wrong because it does not take mother's life/health into account.

As for contraception, it is ridiculous that they could say that that is immoral. Just because you prevent something, anything from happening.

[Robbien]

15. Your opinion on this does not matter Ladyhawk

to anyone else who has to make a choice. Only their opinion matters for their own situation. For your situation, your opinion matters.

That is the whole point. You can follow your beliefs and others can follow theirs.

Unless BushCo changes that.

[Zorra]

17. A tough question with a lot of maybes.

Best to leave it up to each individual woman to decide what is best for her.

[DoNotRefill]

19. This may sound callous....

but I define life as starting as soon as the lungs of the z/e/f start the process of respiration, actually exchanging oxygen and carbon dioxide.

Until there's respiration independent of the mother, it's no more alive than a person's arm is. Sure, your arm is attached, and theoretically "alive" if you're "alive", but it's not a separate organism. And my arm can feel pain, too.

Without respiration, there is no life.

Of course, that's just my opinion.

[REP]

21. It's Easy

Do you think you have the right, let alone the knowledge, to tell another woman what she can do with her body? If not, then you are pro-choice, even if you reject abortion as an option for yourself.

While being pro-choice doesn't mandate a grip on the facts, it doesn't hurt. For example, there are NO abortions of choice done in the third trimester in the US. What the pro-liars call "late term" is actually the second trimester, and even then, most abortions done then are not of choice, but due to maternal health (little trivial things, like heart disease and loss of kidney function) or because the fetus is dead or dying.

Intact dilation and extraction, called "partial birth abortion" by morons, is only performed in the second trimester. It is physically impossible to perform in the third.

The vast majority of abortions performed in the US are peformed in the first 12 weeks.

Most people throughout history have defined a person as a human being, born and alive. A fetus does not satisfy that, as it is contained within and fully dependent on a person. No born person has the right to the bodily resources of another without consent. Parents cannot be compelled to donate an organ or even blood to their child, even if they are the only possible donor and the child will die without the donation. Surely a fetus does not have more rights than that of a someone human, alive and born.

[Dead_Parrot]

22. No easy answer...

My guess would be somewhere between 20-24 weeks, when the cortex develops enough to start functioning as a brain; or maybe around 30 weeks when the patterns settle into normal "human" rythyms.

Having said that, Mrs. Parrot's egg is around 19 weeks old, and we'd hate to have to loose it now if anything went wrong: And Babies have survived after being born at just 25 weeks old. In the UK the maximum limit for abortion is 24 weeks, which doesn't leave much gap...

:shrug: It's a minefield out there.

The good news is, you're having a lot of trouble thinking about it, rather than quoting from some 2000-year-old religious text which gives a zygote (Exodus 21:22-23) more rights than an Ethiopian (2 Chronicles 14:8-12).

[wyldwolf]

24. when the fetus is viable outside the womb?

...but even that is different for each fetus, I suppose.

The only time I feel even a bit uncomfortable with abortion is after the first trimester - but I still would never in no way try to impose my feelings on anyone else.

[Snellius]

25. The real issue is not abortion but whether abortion is murder

There is no one in favor of abortion. It is perfectly possible to be anti-abortion and pro-choice. The problem is what is the penalty. The fundamentalist Christian view can not escape the judgment that abortion is the taking of a human life, and, assuming one also believes in capital punishment, one ends up in the ludicrous hypocrisy of killing the mother for killing her child. So-called "right to lifers" seldom actually speak about what punishment fits what they see as a crime.

[Jacobin]

26. For me, it boils down to this:

If the country decides to make abortion illegal, that means that people (women) who violate the law must be punished. To me, it is hideously insane and backward to put women in jail for refusing to carry a fetus to term against their will.

Another practical problem is that when you make it illegal, the alley abortion doctors and butchers will begin to maim and kill women seeking abortion, like they did in the 1950's. That hardly seems useful.

Further, wealthy women can simply go to Canada and have an abortion, whereas poor women will not have a choice.

Finally, if a person doesn't want to have an abortion, they are free not to. No one is trying to force anyone to have one. However, there are lots of people trying to force women to have babies (anti-choice folks).

[eyesroll]

27. This, to me, is key:

"Further, wealthy women can simply go to Canada and have an abortion, whereas poor women will not have a choice."

Most of the people who make abortion policy will never be affected by it. Even if they are women of childbearing age -- and there are only a handful of them making laws -- they aren't poor. If abortion is made 100% illegal here, they could still have one. They get ample time off from their jobs (recesses, paid sick days, etc.) and can go take a two-day vacation somewhere. Middle-class also could do the same, but perhaps with more difficulty (less forgiving employers, maxing out a credit card). Poor women would be shut out entirely.

[Vickers]

28. If it makes you feel any better, Georgie is also a little confused...

...about where he stands on this issue. Supposedly he is anti-choice/pro-life (sic), but he makes statements that are actually PRO-choice like this one:

" Bush has said he doesn’t believe the country is ready to completely ban abortions; he opposes them except in cases of rape or incest or when pregnancy endangers a woman’s life. That position has become a standard line in most of his speeches."

Yer pro-choice, Georgie!

The full story is here.

[LeahMira]

29. Choose for yourself...

Terminating third-trimester pregnancies seems a little close to violating my natural view that we should try very hard to cause no harm. Of course, I am concerned about the mother, too.


First of all, third trimester abortions are performed when the health and well-being of the woman is threatened if the pregnancy continues.

Secondly, if your life were threatened by either a person (such as a mugger) or a physical condition (such as diabetes), you would take every step within your power to save your life. Particularly you would defend your life from a "pursuer." Even if that pursuer had some mental impairment that excused him/her from understanding the rightness or wrongness or his/her actions, you would be within your moral rights to defend your life.

In the same way, if a woman's life is threatened and a third trimester abortion is the way to resolve the problem, she is justified in killing her "persuer" in self-defense.

Does that help?

[SoCalDem]

31. It's so easy

If you are pregnant and do not want an abortion, don't get one..

If someone else is pregnant and THEY want one, butt out :)

[Bridget Burke]

32. Sit at home & continue to ponder.

Those women in DC you could not have joined because of your tender conscience were fighting for your right to decide.

Whatever you eventually decide.

[skippysmom]

34. If a woman gets to her 3rd trimester

More than likely, she is carrying a wanted baby. Late term abortions don't typically happen because a woman changed her mind -- most of these rare procedures happen because something went terribly wrong.

[lapislzi]

35. BUT...and it's a big but...

...would you support someone's right to terminate a pregnancy in the third trimester because she's changed her mind? You can't pick and choose your reasons, and you can't judge whose reasons are "justified" and whose aren't. That's not the function of legislation. That is the function of a conscience, and can't be legislated.

[skippysmom]

39. Actually, I would support her right to do so

And I agree with you 100%. A lot of the abortion debate focuses on the hard cases (rape, incest, life of the mother etc.). I do believe that the decision to abort is between a woman, her doctor, and her partner if she so desires.

[SuffragetteSal]

36. interesting

that the same pro-life people don't have any problem with killing women (some of whom certainly may be pregnant) and children and civilians in Iraq in this war for oil. But then want to tell me I have no choice in the matter of my own body...

Think about that...

[Ilsa]

37. An article appeared in the journal for OB/GYN's that

provide some interesting information about premature infants, and what they face if they survive. I don't have a link or access to it, but i read about the article on Medscape. Yes, babies can make it when they are born at 24+ weeks, but the disabilities are varied and can be pretty severe (lifelong, expensive physical and mental disabilities requiring total care), and some do better than others.

Compare that to your feelings about end of life continuity of care and right to die issues. At what point would you want medical treatment to be discontinued or not even initiated?

[Snivi Yllom]

38. totally agree with you. No prob w/ 1st and 2nd trimester. 3rd is murder

Legal murder, but it is murder.