GOO-OOO-OOOD MORN-N-NING BAGHDAD !

[kentuck]

The story you are about to read is true. The names have been changed to protect the guilty. Iraq is not like Viet Nam - it is worse. The leaders are the same. They have only changed names. Bush is really Nixon - with all his paranoia and secretive maneuvers and shady friends. We must "stay the course" they said. Meanwhile, they both had a "plan" to end the war. Casualties continued to mount. Pressure at home forced the politicians hands. Only when enough blood had been spilled to get the public's attention did they act to cease their madness.

[greatauntoftriplets]

1. Great post, kentuck.

It is much along the lines of what I have been thinking. "Plans" that only lead to more bloodshed and death.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

2. Since the beginning of this debacle

I've contended that it would take a nice round number to arouse the ire of the sheeple: 1000 dead. That's a large number in context to our "adventurism" around the globe for the last 3 decades. Maybe I need to add a zero...

[markses]

3. Oooops: Nixon won his second term in a landslide

Yikes!

[KerryThatWeight]

5. Didn't Nixon get us out of Nam and end the draft?

Or do my history books lie?

[FloridaPat]

6. Yes. And we really appreciated him for that. He also

got some veterans out of jail that were arrested for protesting in Washington.

[kentuck]

8. Actually, we got out of Viet Nam when Ford was President....

Nixon ran in '68 on a "secret plan" to end the war. More people died in his next 4 years than in the previous 4 years under LBJ...what does your history book say?

[markses]

9. Oh, Nixon "got us out of 'Nam"

Of course. It only took 4 years and 25,000 dead, an illegal invasion of Cambodia, and more murder than a thousand monuments can recall, but he sure did do that.:eyes:

As for stopping the draft, I like to think that that was a result of the same student and young person social movement that forced the passage of ...errr... I dunno, a Constitutional FRIGGIN' Amendment lowering the voting age to 18?!?!??! Nixon didn't "end the draft." Nixon WAS FORCED to end the draft by the young people of this country.

That said, Nixon did start up the EPA. Unfortunately, he also kicked the absurd "war on drugs" into high gear. And, of course, apart from everything else, he thoroughly abused his power, undermined a presidential election process, then lied repeatedly and committed a number of obvious criminal acts while in office - for which he was about to be removed from office, thanks to the good sense and good will of both parties.

[KoKo]

11. Here's a little of the Vietnam timeline Nixon/Ford/Withdrawl/End of Draft:

January 27, 1973 - The Paris Peace Accords are signed by the U.S., North Vietnam, South Vietnam and the Viet Cong. Under the terms, the U.S. agrees to immediately halt all military activities and withdraw all remaining military personnel within 60 days. The North Vietnamese agree to an immediate cease-fire and the release of all American POWs within 60 days. An estimated 150,000 North Vietnamese soldiers presently in South Vietnam are allowed to remain. Vietnam is still divided. South Vietnam is considered to be one country with two governments, one led by President Thieu, the other led by Viet Cong, pending future reconciliation.

January 27, 1973 - Secretary of Defense Melvin Laird announces the draft is ended in favor of voluntary enlistment.

January 27, 1973 - The last American soldier to die in combat in Vietnam, Lt. Col. William B. Nolde, is killed.

February 12, 1973 - Operation Homecoming begins the release of 591 American POWs from Hanoi.

March 29, 1973 - The last remaining American troops withdraw from Vietnam as President Nixon declares "the day we have all worked and prayed for has finally come."

America's longest war, and its first defeat, thus concludes. During 15 years of military involvement, over 2 million Americans served in Vietnam with 500,000 seeing actual combat. 47,244 were killed in action, including 8000 airmen. There were 10,446 non-combat deaths. 153,329 were seriously wounded, including 10,000 amputees. Over 2400 American POWs/MIAs were unaccounted for as of 1973.

April 1973 - President Nixon and President Thieu meet at San Clemente, California. Nixon renews his earlier secret pledge to respond militarily if North Vietnam violates the peace agreement.

April 1, 1973 - Captain Robert White, the last known American POW is released.

April 30, 1973 - The Watergate scandal results in the resignation of top Nixon aides H.R. Haldeman and John Ehrlichman.

June 19, 1973 - The U.S. Congress passes the Case-Church Amendment which forbids any further U.S. military involvement in Southeast Asia, effective August 15, 1973. The veto-proof vote is 278-124 in the House and 64-26 in the Senate.

The Amendment paves the way for North Vietnam to wage yet another invasion of the South, this time without fear of U.S. bombing.

June 24, 1973 - Graham Martin becomes the new U.S. ambassador to South Vietnam.
July 1973 - The U.S. Navy removes mines from ports in North Vietnam which had been installed during Operation Linebacker.

July 16, 1973 - The U.S. Senate Armed Forces Committee begins hearings into the secret bombing of Cambodia during 1969-70.

July 17, 1973 - Secretary of Defense James Schlesinger testifies before the Armed Forces Committee that 3500 bombing raids were launched into Cambodia to protect American troops by targeting NVA positions. The extent of Nixon's secret bombing campaign angers many in Congress and results in the first call for Nixon's impeachment.
August 14, 1973 - U.S. bombing activities in Cambodia


(SNIP)................

May 9, 1974 - Congress begins impeachment proceedings against President Nixon stemming from the Watergate scandal.

August 9, 1974 - Richard M. Nixon resigns the presidency as result of Watergate. Gerald R. Ford is sworn in as the 38th U.S. President, becoming the 6th President coping with Vietnam.

September 1974 - The U.S. Congress appropriates only $700 million for South Vietnam. This leaves the South Vietnamese Army under-funded and results in a decline of military readiness and morale.

September 16, 1974 - President Gerald R. Ford announces a clemency program for draft evaders and military deserters. The program runs through March 31, 1975, and requires fugitives to take an oath of allegiance and also perform up to two years of community service. Out of an estimated 124,000 men eligible, about 22,500 take advantage of the offer.

October - The Politburo in North Vietnam decides to launch an invasion of South Vietnam in 1975.

November 19, 1974 - William Calley is freed after serving 3 1/2 years under house arrest following his conviction for the murder of 22 My Lai civilians.
------------------
More at The History Place/Vietnam the whole Timeline:

http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/vietnam/index-1969.html

[kentuck]

13. What was the date of Viet Cong going into Saigon and....

America lifting people up clinging to the runners of the helicopters? Surely that was after 1973 ??

[markses]

15. The date of the liberation of Saigon was

I believe, April 30, 1975.

[Jacobin]

14. Thanks for that time line

Funny how disruptors come here and start talking about their "history books" but fail to post a link and attempt to revise history to reincarnate corrupt leaders as national heros.

Nice job of debunking.

[KerryThatWeight]

4. The leaders are the same?

My history books inform me that Nam was lead by JFK and LBJ with their staff. Where do you get the idea that Nixon and crew were the big players in Nam?

[FloridaPat]

7. I believe he meant the leader are the same type of people -

secretive, sneaking, lying, and murderers.

[kentuck]

10. Are you a leftist or just a strong moderate liberal ?

:)

[cmd]

12. What are the titles of your history books?

Can you also include the author's and publishers? I just want to check them out so that I can confirm your posts.

[bigtree]

16. Nixon & Vietnam

Nixon & Vietnam

pictures: http://history.acusd.edu/gen/20th/RN/page002.html

1969
William Rogers replaced Rusk as Secretary of State

Melvin Laird replaced Clark Clifford as Secretary of Defense

Henry Kissinger replaced Walt Rostow as National Security Advisor

Gen. Creighton Abrams had replaced Westmoreland in 1968

Adm. John McCain replaced U.S. Grant Sharp as CINCPAC in July 1968

"two-track" approach - separation of military and political conflicts

Hanoi and Washington would negotiate military solution

Saigon and NLF would negotiate political solutions

"Vietnamization" policy - transfer burden of war from U.S. to ARVN

"carrot and stick" strategy - negotiate through strength

Nixon proposed "mutual withdrawal" of troops, no bombing of NV Jan. 25, 1969

Op. Menu - secret bombing of Cambodia began Mar. 18, 1969 - would continue to 1973 - 16,527 sorties dropped 383,851 tons explosives on Cambodia

but story leaked by NY Times May 9 - Kissinger ordered wiretaps on 7 NSC staff and 4 reporters

Abrams withdrew from Ap Bia "Hamburger Hill" in A Shau Valley May 27 after loss of 241 dead

first 25,000 troops withdrawn June 8 - a "meaningful signal"

Nixon's Pacific trip in July - met with Thieu, Marcos - "Nixon Doctrine" promised U.S. would honor treaties and extend nuclear shield to allies, but no U.S. troops - "Vietnamization" of ARVN with modern weapons

Paris peace talks stalled, despite secret meetings of Kissinger and Xuan Thuy at apartment of Jean Sainteng

death of Ho Chi Minh Sept. 2 - replaced by Politburo of Pham Van Dong, Le Duan, Vo Nguyen Giap

Kissinger and Poland ambass Walte Stoessel propose Warsaw talks with Chinese - began Jan. 20, 1970

national demo Oct. 15 by Vietnam Moratorium Committee - 250,000 marched in D.C.

Nixon's TV speech Nov. 3 appealed to silent majority for support

Moratorium demonstration of 500,000 in D.C. on Nov. 15 - largest anti-war demo - Nixon feared chaos and disorder

Seymour Hersh published story about the My Lai massacre of 500 civilians that had occurred Mar. 16, 1968, led by Lt. Wm Calley - see The My Lai Massacre, 1968 by Ambassador C. Edward Dillery

1970
Le Duc Tho replaced Xuan Thuy in Paris for 2nd round of talks Feb-Apr. - demanded end of SV government

NV invasion of Laos and Cambodia Feb. 21 - defeated Hmong army and captured Plain of Jarres - created Khmer Rouge

Cambodia coup Mar. 18 - neutralist Sihanouk replaced by pro-U.S. Lon Nol

Nixon saw film Patton Apr. 25 - made decision next day to invade Cambodia

Cambodia invasion Apr. 30 - 32,000 U.S. troops attack the Fishhook and Parrot's Beak for 2 months - destroy NV supplies and set back NV plans for 2 years - a military success but political disaster

Kent State demonstration May 4 against ROTC - 4 students killed

Nixon visited Lincoln Memorial demonstration May 9

Cooper-Church amendment to limit U.S. troops in Laos and Cambodia passed Senate 58-37 on June 30

Le Duc Tho and Kissinger met in Paris for 3rd round of talks in June

Hatfield-McGovern amendment to require complete withdrawal from VN failed in Sept.

Kissinger trip to Pakistan in Oct. - Pres. Khan acted as intermediary with new Chinese leader Chou En-lai - U.S. gave aid to Khan in Mar. 1971 suppression of Bangladesh revolt, but India would defeat Khan and create Bangladesh by Dec. 1971

1971
Winter Soldier investigation Jan. 31-Feb. 2 by John Kerry and the Vietnam Veterans against the War - 116 vets testified about atrocities committed by U.S. in VN

Op. Lam Son 719 - ARVN invade Laos Feb. 8 with U.S. air support - but failed to close the Ho Chi Minh trail and showed that Vietnamization had failed

Kissinger met with Le Duc Tho is secret talks in house on the Rue Darthe in Feb. rather than the formal talks at the Hotel Majestic, but stalled

ping-pong team visit to China Apr. 10 - Nixon ended of 21-year trade embargo in June

Nixon's 5-powers speech in Kansas City - world to be dominated by economic superpowers U.S., Russia, W. Europe, Japan, China

NY Times published Pentagon Papers June 13 - see Pentagon Papers articles from the Archives of the New York Times

Kissinger visit to Peking July 9 - shook hands with Choe En-lai (unlike Dulles 1954 at Geneva)

U.S. supported admission of PRC (People's Republic of China) to UN, and began to remove U.S. troops from Formosa

1972
Nixon arrived in China Feb. 21 - Shanghai Communique

NV invasion of Quang Tri Mar. 30 - largest since Tet

Nixon responded with Op. Linebacker Apr. 6 - bombing north of DMZ - B-52 raids on Hanoi and Haiphong Apr. 15

NV captured Quang Tri City May 1 - low point for Nixon's "Vietnamization" policy - collapse of SV seemed inevitable

Le Duc Tho and Kissinger met in Paris May 2 - 4th round of talks fail - talks suspended May 4

Nixon decided May 8 to mine Haiphong harbor and blockade NV coast - 4 aircraft carriers added to 7th Fleet - massive bombing and "jugular diplomacy" successful - NV retreated June 18 and Quang Tri City re-taken

Nixon arrived in Moscow May 22 - SALT I treaty signed May 29 - Brezhnev agreed to help pressure NV

Gen. Giap ill with Hodgkin's disease - new military chief Van Tien Dung urged NV to return to Paris talks and make a settlement that would give NV time to recover losses

Le Duc Tho and Kissinger met in Paris July-Aug. - 5th round of talks finally made progress - NV agreed to coalition government and Kissinger agreed to allow NV troops to remain in place - 9-Point proposal worked out Oct 8-12 - but rejected by Thieu

Kissinger TV press conference Oct. 26 - "peace is at hand"

Nixon defeats McGovern Nov. 7

Le Duc Tho suspended negotiations because of Thieu's opposition

Nixon ultimatum to NV Dec. 14 to resume negotiations or "suffer the consequences"

Op. Linebacker II - the "Christmas bombing" Dec. 17-30 - most intense bombing campaign of the war

1973
Nixon threatened Thieu Jan. 5 with "gravest consequences"

Kissinger and Le Duc Tho signed treaty Jan. 27 in Paris - POWs released in 60 days, ceasefire under International Commission of Control and Supervision (ICC), coalition government in SV to arrange elections, U.S. aid to SV to continue

return began of 591 U.S. POWs

U.S. troops withdrawn by Mar., yet bombing continued

Congress cut off funds for war June 30, to become effective Aug. 15

War Powers Act passed Nov. 7 over Nixon's veto

1974
Nixon resigned Aug. 9

http://history.acusd.edu/gen/20th/nixon-vietnam.html