should we even try to educate all citizens?

[ulysses]

It's been posited here that public schools should be "more selective" in their admissions.

I'll play along. Who should get the benefit of an education in a democratic society?

Should they alone be taxed or allowed to vote?

[slinkerwink]

1. everyone should be allowed to have a SECULAR education

and not one that is influenced by religion over what the curriculum should be. There's a reason why education is so much better in other countries is that they don't politicize education.

[Maestro]

6. Education is NOT so much better in other countries

Do not fall for the rhetoric.

(repost from other education debate)

But keep in mind that most of what the media and politicians moan and groan about is bunk. Sure we have problems, but we are the only system that I know of in the world that accepts anyone regardless of race, religion, creed, sex, socio-economic status, language spoken, physical or mental disabilities, etc...Education will never be successful because that will leave politicians without a huge issue to harp on about in debates. For once, I would love to see a politician say that hey, we aren't doing so badly. Test scores don't tell all the story. In fact, when you look at expectations from 20 years ago for the typical third grader and expectations that we have today for a typical third grader, the jump in academic performance is startling. My kids are expected to be able to write fully elaborated stories. I was barely able to write a complete sentence in third grade. Math skills are not just about memorizing tables. Now we are making the kids actually use logical reasoning to solve problems placing numbers in some sort of context. Reading is not just the phonics, fully decodable text that Bush and his lackeys propose, it is using literature to stimulate critical thought. My kids use thinking maps to organize their thoughts and analyze literature for example and we do it in two languages. And this a public school system.

Our system is so huge and we test so many different students that the law of averages would tend to suggest that the national norms are never going to be outstanding for the US when compared to other smaller countries who are only testing the cream of the crop since most systems either do not test kids who are unable or push them onto more vocational paths that require less testing and more manual skills. The US public school system strives to test all. Now, before I am attacked as sounding "freeperish" I am not.

I teach in a low socio-economic area where the vast majority come from homes where English is the second language. However, my expectations are just as high for these kids which is different than most freepers who just want the kids to speak without an accent. Forget about actually teaching them academics.

So yes, public education provides those that otherwise would have no education an education. What makes the difference is how the communtiy allows the public system to teach. Is the community progressive or stuck in the ways of the freepers that continually believe that public schools are a lost cause and vouchers are the answer along with teaching creationism, revisionist history and "the basics?" Public education can do wonders with the right people in charge.

Here are some pics of some budding scientists when we were studying properties of H2O. Permission from parents was given to post pics of the kids. These are also available at my website which currently is having some problems with its site map so it is hard to navigate but here are some direct links.

http://www.irvingisd.net/~spollard/children\'s_work.htm

http://www.irvingisd.net/~spollard/articles.htm

http://www.irvingisd.net/~spollard/bilingual_debate.htm

http://www.irvingisd.net/~spollard/research.htm

[rman]

32. Actually education IS better in other countries

http://mwhodges.home.att.net/summary.htm

[lastknowngood]

2. without public education less than 5% of the u.s. population

would be able to read and write at all. We could then compeat with the poorest countrys of the world for the lowest wages and total enviormental destruction along with no workers rights. Sure your on the right track?

[greatauntoftriplets]

3. Um, what is supposed to happen to the kids who get rejected?

How will it benefit them or society if they are left illiterate? Everyone is entitled to an education.

Please tell me what website I am on, ulysses!!!????

Edited for stupid typo.

[ulysses]

4. it's the coming thing, greataunt!

I mean, let's join the real world - not everyone is going to appreciate whatever arbitrary level at which we set the "truly educated" marker by the time they're 18, so at least some of them should relieve the tax burden on the rest of us by either moving to southeast Asia to work for a quarter per day or by simply dying in infancy.

[greatauntoftriplets]

5. Kindergarten placement tests?

Okay, I know it's the poor kids who will get sent to the chambers (forgive my rhetoric) unless they show extreme promise. The advantaged vs. the disadvantaged.

A great book that I strongly recommend touches on how the deck is stacked towards privileged class in America today. It's called "The Cheating Culture" by David Callahan.

[ulysses]

7. I'm quite serious here.

Who decides who gets an education? What, exactly, happens to those who aren't afforded the opportunity? Should there be tax breaks for those denied schooling, countered by citizenship benefits available only to those who get at least some grounding in American history or who can afford a simple poll tax?

[supernova]

8. Why is this even a question?

Of course we should. We need to do as much education as possible. You never know how you will affect some one.

[ulysses]

9. welcome to the big tent.

You share it now with those for whom public education is the very epitome of failure, waste and stupidity, those who would rather spend tax dollars on the kind of private school as the one in which I currently teach, a school in which the principal can encourage African-American children to fail. I think we need to be able to defend public education against such allies.

[supernova]

10. Whose big tent

are you referring to? Certainly not the Democractic Party.

I realize I "share it -- I presume you mean the good ole USofA -- now" with selfish people who would like to limit access to information and learning.

You can point out that the person doing the discriminating would at some point be considered uneducable by someone else.

[ulysses]

11. I certainly am referring to the Dem tent.

It was suggested, not an hour ago and by a DUer in good standing, that public schools should be more selective in their admissions. In that person's defense, his ideas are not alienated in any way from the stream of thought emanating from certain quarters of the party leadership.

[supernova]

12. What thread?

I was away for most of the evening so I don't know what you're referring to.

PM me if you don't want to say.

edit: People get overwrought and say the stupidest shit, so I'd need to see context to respond to you properly.

[ulysses]

13. here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1477404&mesg_id=1478111&page=

This goes to the post in question, but the whole thread is open of course.

[supernova]

21. Thanks

Can't believe you had the patience to argue with someone who obviously spends so little time with the school system, either public or private.

My hat's off to you, ulysses. :toast:

And that thread proves my point that not enough people know about education in this country: what purpose public schools serve, and what purpose private schools serve.

And it's readily apparent more than a few could use a primer on the history of public education in this country.

[DrWeird]

31. I can't help but think we shouldn't feed the trolls.

No fan of Martin Luther King Jr. believes in "seperate but equal."

[AP]

14. Sounds like fascism to me.

[greatauntoftriplets]

15. Doesn't it?

:shrug:

[ulysses]

16. that's only because

you don't understand the need for schools to adhere to the business model.

[greatauntoftriplets]

18. aga;gaj;ajergoeagmmtiaqalsjdgjlernte9ngakeptajtgm!

Oops. Subject line resulted from head crashing into keyboard in disbelief.

[AP]

30. that also sounds like fascism.

[bemildred]

17. You cannot have a democratic republic in which the citizens

are not educated to understand their rights and responsibilities.

[ulysses]

19. but whose responsibility is that education?

Surely it's not right to demand money for a fallible public educational system when a fallible private educational system with fewer checks and even fewer classrooms is available!

[ulysses]

20. c'mon, folks!

I'm missing my new allies in the fight to restrict public education to the select! Where is everyone?

[SOteric]

22. Public education benefits every individual in society.

Every taxpayer should be asked to contribute to it financially.

Seems simple to me.

[ulysses]

23. no, no.

Education presents an undue burden where the uneducable are concerned and should be limited. I can't believe that the other supporters of the idea aren't flocking to my side to back me up here...

[Muddleoftheroad]

24. No, public schools should be selective how they allocate students

I think you are misreading something I wrote. Troublesome students should be assigned to special schools to handle them.

[ulysses]

25. "allocate" - how could I have forgotten the lingo?

My apologies! We're to ship the inferior material to lesser plants, where we're to do ________ with them it!

What is it that we're to do with it, again?

[Muddleoftheroad]

26. We teach them

We just don't let them wreck things for other kids.

Personally, I've had my fill of the bad kids. It's not race and it's not even economics. Some kids cause trouble -- they are violent or sell drugs or act out in the classroom. They are holding others back -- others who need that education.

One of the reasons that parents want their kids in private schools is that private schools enforce discipline and actually can and will expel troublesome students.

[DrWeird]

27. Why don't we just round up all the mentally retarded people...

concentrate them into camps, have the strong ones perform slave labor, and gas the weak ones.

I mean, if you're going to believe something you might as well follow it to the extreme but logical conclusion.

[ulysses]

28. the only true solution

is to shoot them. Them and the "weird" kids.

[DrWeird]

29. We'll need pure strength of will.

Good thing we're the master race.