Canadian military spending slammed

[Canadian_moderate]

http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20040426.wclar0426a/BNStory/National/

From the article---
Ottawa — Canada gets low marks among senior Washington security and defence officials because it has allowed its military to wither away, a former presidential adviser said Monday.

"For the last many years, Canada has not been making much of a contribution at all on the military side," said Richard Clarke, a former terrorism adviser to U.S. President George W. Bush and his predecessor, Bill Clinton.
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I happen to agree with Clarke. I'm not a hawk, far from it. Yes, there are other priorities, but Canada needs to pull it weight a little more. Just opposing GWB's policies is not enough. I'd like to see a bigger contribution in the real war on terror.

Canada has become a bit of a joke internationally because it cannot take any assertive action. We can barely deal we illegal foreign fishing vessels.

[sidwill]

1. Yet

Canada is safe and secure with no apparent enemies.

I wonder why?

Maybe its because they don't use their military to prop up dictators around the globe at the behest of their corporate oligarchy.

Just sayin.

[Brillo]

2. Free riders

Canada is a free rider on the USA's defense capabilities. That's the sad fact. If the USA weren't their southern neighbor they'd actually have to spend a few bucks to defend themselves.

[wuushew]

6. The Cold War is over

Amerika can pack up the DEW line and go home.

[FDRrocks]

13. That is false...

Canada hasn't given people a reason to attack them, have they?

[Canadian_moderate]

14. My point was not really about defending Canada.

The only real threat to Canada are American conservatives.

It has more to do with making a contribution abroad and leading by example. Canada used to do that more effective. Canada was always respected for having a small but very effective military for peacekeeping purposes.

[Wonk]

23. You're talking about Soft Power, as compared to Hard Power

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1469139

By Joseph Nye. Check it out.

http://www.google.com/search?q=Joseph+Nye+%22Soft+Power%22

[madrchsod]

16. how is anyone going to invade canada????

walk? the only enemy canada has to fear is the usa

[daleo]

33. We could easily build a few hundred nuclear warheads and missiles

Do you think Washington would go for that?

[HEyHEY]

36. From who...fucking iceland?

[Solon]

4. There is wisdom in such things.

For why do you need the most powerful military in the world, unless you continue to create your enemies yourself?

[wuushew]

3. With who, where and when was this interview given?

no context is given for these unverified quotes.

Also you claim Canada is an INTERNATIONAL joke, who in the international community is criticizing Canada?

[Canadian_moderate]

8. It's not so much criticsim, it is

The fact that Canada cannot even perform many of the peacekeeping duties anymore. We used to excel at that. Right now, we are stretched to the limit. Canada has more to offer in international aid, of which peacekeeping is a major part.

The UN has lost much of its effectiveness due to the fact that many other countries are also not serious about their militaries.

The USA, with by far the largest military, is not interested in theis role and the current situation in Iraq proves that the military is not well-trained at peacekeeping and PR.

[Spazito]

5. I would rather beef up the pay, housing etc for the troops ...

and their families as well as ensure they have the best equipment than to add to the number. Our role is and should be that of peacekeepers. We do not need a huge standing army, we do not have dreams of empire unlike the bush regime.

[whistle]

7. Wow and the neo-cons think Canada will invade...

...the U.S sometime soon? How about the other way around as the Imperial Hegemony is to invade militarily weak nations to insure decisive victory. Canada is another one of these sparsely populated countries with an abundance of natural resources (much more than just oil). I think it's a natural target for BushCo. They may even have WMDs, look at all those 'nukular' plants they have and the tons of heavy water they produce. I think Bush's secret plan is not to seal the Canadian borders but to expand them to beyond their frontiers.:freak:

[JohnyCanuck]

10. They probably won't have to go to the trouble of invading

They only have to fix the elections so that Stephen Harper the Conservative Party leader gets elected as PM. He'll be falling over himself in his eagerness to sell off our resources for the benefit of his winger republican buddies in the US and to further integrate our military into the US command structure. The day I hear they're using Diebold voting machines in our federal elections in Canada, I'll figure it's game over.

[FDRrocks]

15. BBV 2: Electric Boogaloo?

Quite possibly.

[MrPrax]

9. Love the Alliance...

"I'd like to see a bigger contribution in the real war on terror." that's Bush's agenda, no?

Funny your proposal is very much the same as the 'conservative' alliance position...

Good to see Alliance out and about...other than the freedominion

"Canada has become a bit of a joke internationally because it cannot take any assertive action." since when, Canada has the highest respect among the international community---OH YOU MEAN the Bush cabal?

or you meant that when Harper went on Fox and talked about the silent majority...and then retracted...and then Joe Clark, former conservative leader, came out and said flatly that Harper was dangerous...and Harper is linked into Grover and rightwing thinktanks and all that stuff...

Nice try...

[Canadian_moderate]

11. I'm no fan of Harper either.

The Conservatives (read Alliance) are a joke.

I do feel that religious extremism is a threat. It has to be dealt with and we cannot always blame ourselves.

I am against the war in Iraq because Saddam was very much contained and there was no proof linking his regime to 9-11. That said, there was considerable proof that Afghanistan and the Taliban was connected. Therefore, I supported their overthrow. Not to mentions the gross violation of human rights under the Taliban regime.

If Canada had a larger military, we would have the chance to show up the Americans in the real war on terror, compared to that farce of war in Iraq.

[MrPrax]

18. This thread brought to YOU by the Letter 'P'

P is for parse...

Let us see...

I do feel that religious extremism is a threat." no religious extremism in CANADA...so why mention it?

"It has to be dealt with and we cannot always blame ourselves." huh?...too much of the silly llama coverage ? Yes 'peace is within all of us'
... dealt/blame--who? OH you mean the old Stockboy slimeballs fundie creeps hold up in the Alliance...

"If Canada had a larger military, we would have the chance to show up the Americans in the real war on terror, compared to that farce of war in Iraq."
this is inscrutible...you are from canada, eh,?
'real' war on terror? show them UP?... canada could do a BETTER job in iraq than the US? Better than say the Brits or Aussies?

Pretty tall order dude...your VISION of a GREATER Canada is far more perfect than my own...

[Canadian_moderate]

20. no religious extremism in CANADA...so why mention it?

I choose to differ in opinion. There is definitely religious extremism in Canada.
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/8AD9D094-4356-4428-BE23-2A6C1FAA19E6.htm

People from all over the world are welcome, but we should ask them to leave their intolerance behind.

This also goes for IRA sympathisers who sing pro-IRA songs in the pub I prequent after Sunday night indoor soccer games.

Believe it or nor, there are some people within Canada who hate our free and open society. Let's not blind ourselves to the truth. Yes, they are a very small minority, but let's nip it in the bud.

I love diversity and multiculturalism, but let's not accept bigotry, intolerance and backward (I mean extreme) cultural practices.

[MrPrax]

32. I give up...

You copy and paste a aljez story on something in the Canadian media?

IRA sympathizers? Yeah I worry about those guys bombing a wal-mart in Brantford...or

OR ....hey how about raising money for settlements in Israel or Hilel trying to recruiting for the IDF on canadian campuses...that's illegal (but I digress)

"This also goes for IRA sympathisers who sing pro-IRA songs in the pub I prequent after Sunday night indoor soccer games." this is a give away...you actually live in Canada, right?

[Canadian_moderate]

34. Right here in Toronto

I know it's off-topic, but go to any Celtic v. Rangers game and you'll see what I mean. It's amazing to see how these bigots bring there sectarian hatred with them from Ireland and Scotland.

As for fundamentalism, you may have heard about the Khadr family. If not, try google. While they are the exception, I'm sure there are others. Like I said, let's not turn a blind eye.

The way I feel is that there is no room for extreme intolerant beliefs in a tolerant society. That's why I support hate-crime laws.

[FDRrocks]

12. Washington is full of idiots.

Canada doesn't act like an empire, thus they don't have any real enemies, thus they don't have a need for a ridiculous defense budget akin to Americas.

I'm not Canadian, as you are, but I dare say that Canada does not need to be drug any further into an unwinnable war (War on Terrorism, you can't win it), it will only end up causing them the same horrors that the US experiences on 9/11 and Spain experiences a short while ago.

[Canadian_moderate]

17. I'm no conservative, but

I do feel that religious fundamentlism is a threat that needs to be dealt. If you let it grow, it will only get worse. History has taught us that.

Fundamentlism in the Arab world will only get worse at the rate the population is exploding in Muslim countries. It is creating more poverty and thus breeding extremism.

As a moderate liberal, I don't think we need to be tolerant of intolerant people. While I'm referring to fundamentalist Muslims, the same goes for fundamentealist Christians or any other religious bigots and extremists.

[FDRrocks]

19. Then I ask you...

What good can come of attacking whole countries of people b/c of the actions of a cadre of fundamentalists? The logical effect is the increased number of enemies towards the agressor.

The Christian fundamentalists are running amok here and advancing thier agenda further, which, when one extrapolates the Religious Rights views and aims, wouldn't turn out much better than Afghanistan under the Taliban. Many call for the destruction of Islam by violent means, as well. What is to be done about this?

[Canadian_moderate]

24. Why attack countries?

I don't advocate attacking countries. I advocate peacekeeping. I advocate helping people in other countries to remove the yoke of oppressive governments from their necks.

While I'm happy Saddam was ousted, I personally felt that the Iraqis should have been up to them to do it. Unfortunately they were too divided to do anything about Saddam. I fear the present situation is no better than the prior sitaution.

[FDRrocks]

25. Disregarding Iraq

Iraq obviously has no real link to the War on Terrorism, the only possible link I can think is the overused line that "We started a war there to divert the terrorists from attacking here", which seems to run off the assumption that Iraqi civilians should suffer the wrath of what America has done in the past, which sickens me.

What I mainly refer to is the war on Afghanistan. Your country helped, many did, but what did it do? It deposed the Taliban, a very good thing, but we carpet bombed civilians and cut off vital aid from Pakistan, which caused horrible suffering to the populous of that country, almost all of which had nothing to do with anything as far as the Taliban went.

What good comes of the attack on Afghanistan? Is the world that much safer? Didn't the threat of the Taliban just reconstitute itself in the form of a tumor somewhere else?

What point is there to the War on Terror? What end can it serve, IN REALITY, that is generally a positive?... that is assuming it can end, but terrorism has been around forever.

Why do you want Canada to get more involved in it? That's my main question.

[Canadian_moderate]

27. Carpet bombing is a war crime

I want Canada to give more peacekeeping help. The job in Afghanistan is far from done. The west must stop repeating its mistakes. These people need our help. War lords and extremists still control most of the country outside Kabul.

[Solon]

21. One thing I think peple fail to understand...

is that religious fundelmentalism is a reaction to an outside or interior threat. Think of the U.S. itself, the Fundlementalist movement hear started as a reaction against modern society, whereas in the Middle East it is both that and the percieved and real imperialism of the West. You can't fight either battle with guns and bombs, simply because you create a cycle where violence begets more violence, the best way to deal with flames of fundlementalism is to stop fueling it, or at least slow it down to a trickle. All this war will do is play into people like Osama Bin Laden's hands by hardening the hearts of his and others followers against compromise and peace.

[oblivious]

22. Yes, let's arm Canada.

Since Canada has no need or desire to invade anyone, there is no reason to build up our offensive capability. And no matter how much we spend, we have no hope of defending ourselves against a major military power.

However, modern conflicts (e.g. the Soviets in Afghanistan, Israelis in Lebanon, US in Iraq) have shown that arming a population for guerrilla warfare can enable even the most feeble country to repel the most powerful. So if the US really thinks we are in danger, maybe the Canadian govt should make sure every Canadian is armed with gun, RPG and a pocket full of grenades. That'd make any invader think twice.

And it would likely be cheaper than a handful of F18s.

[Canadian_moderate]

26. I'm not talking huge military spending.

Even neutral Switzerland spends more per capita than Canada does. Our military personal deserve better than the junk they have to risk their lives with.

I'm thinking small, but effective, modern and mobile. Call me a hawk if that makes you feel better. It would say I'm a moderate liberal.

[oblivious]

28. Let's be realistic

As far as I can see there is only one good reason for Canada to spend more on arms - to help out the US arms industry. After all, Canada gets considerable benefit from US arms contracts. So you give something back. Fine. I'm sure this is the US govt's only concern as well. I'd rather just make a donation to the US arms industry just to get them to leave us alone and keep Canada's military embarrasingly small.

Wasn't it Madeline Albright who said 'what's the use of having the world's most powerful military if you don't use it?'

I'd hate to see my country involved in that kind of logic.

[wuushew]

29. I disagree...Switzerland and Canada are roughly equal

http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/30046.pdf

[Canadian_moderate]

30. Canada is not neutral

While I don't want to live in a warmongering country, I also don't want my country to shrug off its responsibilities.

While I love Canada, I do feel at times that we are way too insignificant.

[HEyHEY]

37. I don't feel we've ever shrugged off a legit responsibility

When it comes to the military.

[oblivious]

31. Thanks wuushew.

That's pretty interesting.

[lcordero]

35. Canada is perfect just the way that it is

I wish we could follow your example.

BTW... 80% of the stuff going on in the world wouldn't be happening if our "assets" weren't outright provoking it.

[Andy_Stephenson]

38. Amen!

Leave Canada just the way it is. Peaceful.

[Serenity-NOW]

39. Canada unarmed? LETS INVADE TODAY!!

We should pull all the troops from stupid Iraq since those guys clearly don't appreciate all the freedom and democracy we offer them right? And they are armed as well. In my opinion that's just bad invasion policy. Canada on the other hand has lots to offer and on top of everything else they speak better English than we do. Seems like a real no brainer. We could go set up a dandy democracy, remove that whole imperial monarchy and replace their silly parlimentary system with tried and true corporate rule.

[Andy_Stephenson]

40. Operation Canuck Freedom

The "Friendship Arch" can be renamed to the "Freedom Arch".

I can see it all now.

[Serenity-NOW]

41. And aren't there some French in Canada?

We're still pissed at them right? Another strong reason for unilateral military intervention. But we should probably tear down all those arches for the televised bit to show what a great job we're doing. Can't have stuff that sounds remotely French. Ah it will be a beautiful thing to bring Freedom to the poor Canadians.

George can mispronounce Cueback and everthing will be as right as industrial strenght toxic rain.

[ConcernedCanuk]

42. finally -- a post worth responding to!

.
.
.

Let's see,

we got tons of clean lakes, rivers and streams,

more oil and gas than we can ever use,

Lumber and cattle comin out our ying-yangs,

No large toxic areas from extended newklee-ar testing and development,

Oh, and sh_t like free health-care, just think of all the war-toys the USA could buy as soon as they abolished that -

Scatter missile silos all over the country to give Russia and China some more targets to aim at,

And then they could build that canal they want through Manitoba to get all that water they've been trying to get for the last 3 decades

They could dissolve the treaty on how much water they take out of the Great Lakes and just drain a few of them -

Murikkan hunters could clean up our bear problem with a few years of unregulated hunting

And of course, pic off a few "insurgents" here and there just to keep their killing skills up!

Gee - what are they waiting for?

Oh, - I should warn the US:

Watch out for our newly deployed "stealth" Coast Guard fleet!!




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