Liberal Christians, help! How do we turn the fundies to the light side?

[cheezus]

I'm not a christian myself, but my limited understanding of jesus leads me to believe that he was a pretty cool dude who embraced mainly liberal values.

My problem with so many right wing christian fundies is that their "faith" is primarily focused around hate. The belief that they must hate anyone who doesn't follow jesus seems a bit different from the actual teachings of christ.

Is the love that jesus teachers more powerful than the hate? Can some liberal christians post here with some bible verses and whatnot to back us up?

I seriously believe that these legions of followers WANT to do the right thing. It's just that hating gays and abortionists is easier than loving the poor and the sick.

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. you don't

it is a cult, truly

[supernova]

2. The Beatitudes

from The Sermon on the Mount sum it up perfectly.

Jesus is calling for an out and out upending of the social order as we know it. Damn cool, even after 2000 years.

Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted. Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake" (Matt 5:3-11 KJV).

[Wapsie B]

3. Encourage the Liberal Fundies

to get out more. People think that there's only the konservative variety out there, but that's due to the fact that the neocons have so many avenues to get their message out.
Liberal Fundamentalists do exist, and should be encouraged to stand up for what they know is right. Let the world know that there is a great divide in the fundamentalist world. It would be nice to find a way to see how many are actually out there as opposed to their right wing bretheren. Might make a few politicians sit up and take notice.

[Christ was Socialist]

4. Please visit this site

www.liberalslikechrist.org it is a mega-mega-mega site dedicated to christ in the religious and political progressive manner.

Also this site www.gnosis.org is a library of the books that were rejected by the early church they are the gnostic (greek for knowledge) works. These text show that the early group were true liberals and intellectuals, but were supressed out of existence. I myself am a neo-gnostic.

Look at my signature, it is from the gnostic gospel of thomas, you can see why it would be excluded. It reveals A socialist (b4 the term was in) Christ. And a utopian one at that.

[GOPBasher]

7. Thanks for that site.

I myself have been starting to really get into gnostic Christianity lately. I really like that site you posted. It's teaching me a lot. I think I'm going to be a full blown Gnostic Christian.

[Christ was Socialist]

9. the depth

of it is amazing. And the best part of it, is that it shows Christ as an intellectual, and that you must be one to be a true follower. No where in the new testament is there praise for knowledge, in gnostic christianity that is the basis. Also Mary Magdalene was the first true feminist in my mind. Her gospel is wonderful. In the gnostic church women and men were equal (liberalism) and Mary was an actual leader of the disciples, untill the catholic church convened and excluded gospels and announced her as a prostitue and someone less than a human. And The fundies never debate weather christ was married, and choose to stick to the safety of tradition. Christ wasn't a fan of tradition. The saducees are literally the 1st century version of republicans lol. The probelm with the bible is the king james edition had this site goes into it, and why most of it is questionable. You wont ever read the bible without spoons of salt again.

http://www.asapnet.net/remnant/page5isKJVonly.htm

[Claire Beth]

13. I'm not sure what I am anymore....

I was a christian but I sure have a lot of questions anymore....

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/

[Christ was Socialist]

18. I've been going there for years

you showed how mature you really are, fundies close there mind to everything. I have even heard some say they won't watch penn and tellers show "bullshit" on showtime because it will make them question there faith. But that effect is good. Remember even though the true words of Jesus have been corrupted, don't buy into the Christianity is the only way. I have been studying buddah, as well as the gnostic gospels and works, and knowledge is the key. Actually they can keep the bible, I want to model myself politically and religiously like Christ, the rest is superstiion and propaganda. Do some studyinjg ont he buddah in fact the best work i know of Buddah: By KAren armstrong is a great example, you will see how the founders of all the great movements ahd a lot in common, and when they passed on, the liberal followers were all exed out like the gnostic christians, and the liberal buddahists, same with muslims who use ot be quite progeessive. Karen Armstrong is the best theologian in my opinion, check out some of her works on amazon.com

-----snip from her book on buddah---------
GOTAMA WOULD NOT, THEREFORE, have agreed with our current cult of "family values." Nor would some of his contemporaries or near-contemporaries in other parts of the world, such as Confucius (551-479) and Socrates (469-399), who were certainly not family-minded men, but who would, like Gotama himself, become key figures in the spiritual and philosophical development of humanity during this period. Why this rejectionism? The later Buddhist scriptures would evolve elaborate mythological accounts of Gotama's renunciation of domesticity and his "Going Forth" into homelessness, and we shall consider these later in this chapter. But the earlier texts of the Pali Canon give a starker version of the young man's decision. When he looked at human life, Gotama could see only a grim cycle of suffering, which began with the trauma of birth and proceeded inexorably to "aging, illness, death, sorrow and corruption." He himself was no exception to this universal rule. At present he was young, healthy and handsome, but whenever he reflected on the suffering that lay ahead, all the joy and confidence of youth drained out of him. His luxurious lifestyle seemed meaningless and trivial. He could not afford to feel "revolted" when he saw a decrepit old man or somebody who was disfigured by a loathsome illness. The same fate--or something even worse--wouldbefall him and everybody he loved. His parents, his wife, his baby son and his friends were equally frail and vulnerable. When he clung to them and yearned tenderly toward them, he was investing emotion in what could only bring him pain. His wife would lose her beauty, and little Rahula could die tomorrow. To seek happiness in mortal, transitory things was not only irrational: the suffering in store for his loved ones as well as for himself cast a dark shadow over the present and took away all his joy in these relationships.

[Claire Beth]

19. my boyfriend studies buddah...

but I was having serious questions about my faith before I met him. Most christians don't even realize the book known as bible today didn't exist until 325 A.D. at the council of Nicea (I think that is the correct date could be 323 A.D. ?)....... and there are several books omitted from the bible, the gnostic gospels.

[Christ was Socialist]

25. yep

not to mention the first translations were wrong, plus 20,000 errors in the king james version, so if a translation is an error then another translation is baed on it etc etc etc. Don't worry about your faith problems, I think you are having the same problem i had, i am a former fundie, so much so i was a fundie catholic then an evangelical and i wanted to be a minister. The common faith emergency is really guilt from tradition and brainwashing. A good secular example is when I like many others found out the founding fathers of america were hypocrites, and just as scandolous as any one else. In fact many siad the country is not in any way chrisitan. Once you get over that superstition of hell, your guilt will disappear. You are in that transitional phaze. Many people that are fundies are converts from the secular world where they couldn't cut it, thats why you hear so many "i use to be lost or broken" etc accounts. Even the jews (whom chrisitanity is based) don't believe in hell. If anything lucipher is an enemy of man, not God, a prosecuting attorney if you will. The gnostic works are extremly diverse, i tend to keep it to the Christ oriented material. I don't know if you have gotten to the parts about the Demiurge, that one is heavy, also the books about sophia and the alternative creation story. This site delves into it pretty good

http://raptor.slc.edu/~colette/work/alexchina.html

[cheezus]

14. wow. site looks like the peak of technology from 1996

what with the bordered tables, ugly background, strange fonts, midi and whatnot

but it looked like there was a lot of good content!

[meegbear]

5. Show them "Supply Side Jesus"

from Al Franken's Lying Liars book. It's a comic a few pages long showing how would have acted if he took the veiws of conservatives.

Here's a sample:


Do a google search on Images for "supply side jesus" and you'll see a few more.

[Claire Beth]

6. *true* christians understand...

that in order to be like Jesus, they have to live by the golden rule. Jesus NEVER used violence and deceit to win believers. The neo-cons should take a lesson straight from Jesus himself. Most of the * administration is made up of radical right wing christians who can't look in the mirror and see themselves for what they truly are.

[stopthegop]

8. he did, however...use violence to chase

offenders out of the Temple...FWIW

[Claire Beth]

10. you didn't read my post correctly...

I said jesus never used violence to win believers.

[stopthegop]

12. I read it correctly...

I just feel the predominant image of Christ is too much of the gentle, not enough of the righteous and judging...they are both part of the Person..

edit: and I believe statements that Christians (in the US) want to convert others by force, or hate those who believe differently are incorrect, and based on the speakers biases and hatred, not those of Christians.

[LanternWaste]

11. I am a Christian. I am also a Democrat.

I am a Christian. I am also a Democrat.

What many people fail to grasp (and this is my personal opinion) is that religion has very little to do with politics and politics has very little to do with religion. Regardless of whether a politician uses religion as a trump card or a minister uses politics to exemplify or illustrate a point made, I firmly believe that when I stand before God in judgment, He will not ask, "Were you a Conservative or a Liberal while on Earth?" (even if man does ask that question). On the other hand, I think He will present us with a list of our deeds as an *individual* and judge us on those merits.

My point is, you're asking me as a Christian and a Democrat to convince someone who is a Christian and a Conservative to change. It's just as easy to forgo to Christian part of it. Ask me as simply a Liberal to talk sense into a Conservative... that I can buy (and attempt to do whenever possible and appropriate).

Yes, there are individuals who attempt to justify their faith through the secular and political-oriented. It's a mistake in as much as trying to justify politics through religion. Although it does seem to me that the neo-Conservative party (Ronald Reagan and on) have, to a degree, co-opted the *appearance* of Christianity as part of the Party platform, it just as obvious to me that religious faith and party affiliation are exclusive to each other. I do not need one to have the other.

I guess... ask these people (in all sincerity) if they believe that every political party ever created in mankind's history, other than Republicans, will be damned to Hell. Ask them to explain why. Ask them if they believe that the Apostle Paul, Martin Luther, C.S. Lewis, Churchill, Jimmy Carter and Mother Theresa are in hell-- as they were each obviously not a member of the Republican Party, the NRA or the PNAC.

Ask them what precise Biblical evidence they have that points to God "ordaining" *Bush as the current pResident. Ask them why maintaining appropriate and effective stewardship of the planet as set to Christians in Paul's epistle's, translated to the contemporary as Environmentalism, is against God's will. Ask them why group's such as Amnesty International who work to achieve social justice and equality worldwide will send us to "the lake of fire's".

I honestly believe that I can be an effective Christian regardless of whether I am a Democrat, a Republican or even a Monarchist. I also believe that I can be an effective Democrat whether I am a Christian, atheist or Muslim.

These are just a series of random, disjointed thoughts by your truly. If you want a serious exploration of this topic, I recommend reading C.S. Lewis' "Mere Christianity", regardless of your faith or lack of faith as it addresses these precise questions and, if it make anyone happy, would piss off a "Fundie" as vernacularly defined.

:hi:

[cclark401]

15. liberal Christian here.....

Most of the conservative Christians we hear about all the time aren't really Christians. The bible says that "you shall know the tree by the fruit it bears." Jesus also said that "loving your neighbor was the 2nd greatest of all the commandments." Where is the love that these people have? I say they give Christianity lip service and that is all they do (wolves in sheep's clothing).

Most Christians (that vote for repubs) that I know do so simply because of social issues--all the things they are against--however those issues do not (in my opinion) form the basis of what we should be doing politically. Historically the Democratic party has been the party for the "down trodden, etc" and therefore the party that follows more of Jesus' teachings on how to become a force for good in the world.

Sure I may disagree with my party on some issues but the greater good for myself, my community, and my country is gonna be "looked after" by the Democratic party plain and simple.

Verses on love..
Love thy neighbor as thyself...Matt. 19:19
Love your enemies ...Matt. 5:44
Romans 12:9
I Peter 1:22
No matter what we do in life if we do it without love it will profit us nothing ---- see I Corinthians 13:1-3 and then about the characteristics of love see same chapter verses 4-8.


What the bible says about hate...
I John 2;9 and 1 John 3:15

[stopthegop]

16. actually..

greatest commandment is to love God...second is to love your neighbor

[sangh0]

28. Actually, the 10 Commandments is OT, not NT

You're not doing a very good job of correcting the mistakes other people make about religion, mainly beause they're right, and you've been wrong.

[GreenPartyVoter]

17. Lots of Scripture on my website in support of social responsibility.

Would Jesus love a liberal? You bet!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/liberalchristians.htm

[duvinnie]

20. they are sheep

and their shepherds are leading them astray.
This is how Jesus portrayed the ordinary religious of
his day, and this (I think) is what he would say about
today's Christian scene.

"Liberal christians" are now marginalized, as if they
were somehow anti-american self-loathing whackos. Do you
really think the conservatives will listen to their
liberal counterparts? Try going to a funeral or memorial
for a gay victim of violence and you will see otherwise.

[maggrwaggr]

21. your energies are better spent elsewhere

you'd be better off trying to convince a paranoid schizophrenic that the Men in Black weren't actually out to get her.

Those people, and I have several in my family, are WAY WAY too far gone to ever change their mind one bit.

They are fearful crazy people and their beliefs are basically like those of a schizophrenic. If you try to change their mind you will be labelled as EVIL and an instrument of Satan.

[mmonk]

22. You can't.

They're saved.:crazy:

[noonwitch]

23. Discuss the Sermon on the Mount with them

There are some serious messages about hatred and violence, loving your enemies, and praying in private. (Matthew 5-7)

Read "Ken's Guide to the Bible" before discussing abortion with them. There's a list at the back of all the times God either causes someone to have a miscarriage as punishment for sin or encourages the Israelite army to kill everyone in a village, specifically including children. Landover Baptist might have some of the references, too.

[gpandas]

24. i'm an atheist, but...

sixteen years of sunday school and church, combined with fifty years of reading (including the bible, the zen rin and the koran) and thinking make me feel that the only significant difference is that jesus was the only one who based his teachings on love. ironic that freepers present themselves as christians. i would remind them of at least these passages from jesus: how hard will it be for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven? and render unto caesar that which is caesers... and whosoever shall love the least of them...and lay not treaures upon the earth...and when you pray do so in a closet...on second thought maybe a lot of american "christians" need to take a look at what jesus wants from them

[Jane Austin]

26. Tell 'em to read the NEW Testament.

It's full of light.

Redemption, too.

[Tinoire]

27. It took me one year but I have finally succeeded in transforming a few

and boy were they ever stubborn but right now they have NOT one kind word to say about Bush.

Advice- Focus on the war

and on how Bush's regime is totally lacking in charity

Pastors who have to work with the Aids organizations can be made totally aware of what's going on once you prove how much money is going into this war and who is making money off it at the expense of the poor.

"By their fruits ye shall know them"

Graphic pictures such as the ones on this site are EXTREMELY helpful:

http://www.shianews.com/hi/middle_east/news_id/0000758.php