I've heard tell that we shouldn't blame US troops for the Iraq slaughter

[Sandpiper]

And generally, the reason that's given is that "they're just following orders."

Yet, with Bush and Ashcroft wanting to push us toward a police state, a part of me can't help but wonder how many of these troops we're supposed to be supporting would turn their guns on us if they were "just ordered" to do so.

[Qanisqineq]

1. very few

[Mikimouse]

2. It is unlikely that you really want an answer to that question...

There are plenty of examples through history that would illustrate just how easily that can happen.

[gpandas]

4. sad but true n/t

[seabeyond]

3. they would to

they would to turn there guns on us if told to. geez, this is a given. this is their training. they would create us as animal, unpatriot, terrorist, are you kidding. dems arent even doing anything and we are created that and the right want us dead. hell yes they would point the gun on us and say all the while they were protecting the states

[bigtree]

5. Lincoln warned us against that

At Edwardsville, Illinois, on September 11, 1858, President Abraham Lincoln said, "What constitutes the bulwark of our own liberty and independence is not our frowning battlements, our bristling seacoast, the guns of our war steamers, or the strength of our gallant and disciplined army. These are not the reliance against the resumption of tyranny in our fair land. All of them may be turned against our liberties without making us stronger or weaker for the struggle."

"Our reliance is in the love of liberty, which God has planted in our bosoms. Our defense is the preservation of the spirit, which prizes liberty as the heritage of all men, in all lands everywhere." Destroy this spirit and you have planted the seeds of despotism at your down doors."

"Familiarize yourselves with the chains of bondage," Lincoln warned, and you prepare your own limbs to wear them. Accustomed to trample on the rights of others, you have lost the genius of your own independence and become the fit subjects of the first cunning tyrant who rises among you."

[orwell]

12. Fallen

If Kerry uttered those same words today he would be branded an "elitist" by the toadying press and the RW shills who wrap themselves in the bloody flag. Soundbite Amerika demands five word slogans and lies wrapped in God for quick consumption and brainless assimilation. Lincoln could never run today. His face was "too long."

How far have we fallen?

O

[bigtree]

20. More Lincoln

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they should grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember, or overthrow it."
~Speech after Presidential oath

[Green Mountain Dem]

6. What an incredibly astute...

inquiry and I look forward to the responses. I have no doubt that troops or Police, or Militia would take us out if ordered. How did we ever allow this to happen?? I lost my Godson in this fuckin ridiculous invasion and I don't think I will ever be the same. I hate this government and everything it represents...my only consolation is that I am 60 yrs old and dying from congestive heart failure...may it take me sooner than later.

[orwell]

9. Sorry...

Sorry to hear about your loss. May you find some form of peace in your journey.

O

[Andy_Stephenson]

14. I am sorry...so sorry...

where do I find the words.

[Mikimouse]

15. I am so sorry to hear that, more than I can tell you...

There are no words that would suffice, so I will send my most healing thoughts and hugs.:hug:

[bobbieinok]

16. have not experienced any such loss but also am over 60 and

since 2000 and Iraq have begun to actually see an advantage in being old(er).

Son is mid 30s; not sure how I would cope if I were that young today.

[beanball]

41. I will say a little prayer

for you,may God bless and keep you.

[orwell]

7. The Way of the Jackal

It wouldn't be framed that way. The "leaders" would paint the targeted citizens as "terrorists" or "enemies of the state" or some other focus group tested label.

Then our "brave men and women" would feel it was their "patriotic duty" to fire on their fellow citizens. Some would refuse, but many would follow orders.

The police in Miami had no problem firing rubber bullets at reporters during the recent anti-globalization marches. It is not much of a step for trained warriors to turn on a redefined target, even if it was their own countrymen, if they believed they were "defending freedom."

War is not only hell, it is lunacy, where humankind's most bestial face is seen. The "good Germans" in their patriotic fervor eliminated, 6 million innocents, most fellow countrymen, all for "the homeland."

To say it can't happen here is to prepare the way of the jackal.

O

[Christ was Socialist]

8. Well the Vehrmacht were following hitlers orders

the imperial army followed hirohito. I come from a millitary family and I will tell you as a human, they are responsible. The one who pulls the trigger even if its john kerry or anyone is responsible for murder. If a three year old is ordered to shoot he will, but I don't have it in me to shoot him, because he would shoot me. I do have the revolutionary spirit in me, so i am capable of doing it on my own terms. But the us millitary like every government force are nothing but sheep. My brother and sister and uncles and grandfather are included in the herd.

[rumguy]

10. not all troops would go along with that

I bet a sizeable majority would refuse...

the freeper-types would do it, but luckily not all in the military are freeper-types...

[Sandpiper]

18. I agree, not all would go along

But if Bush was to say "kill the liberal traitors" I'm sure there are plenty who would happily gun down every last one of us.

[Tinoire]

19. A sizeable majority?

Like the sizeable majority that refused to embark on an illegal war in Iraq?

Orders are orders. As the Germans say, Dienst ist Dienst und Schnapps ist Schnapps.

Given the right "national emergency", most of the troops will do their "duty".

[rumguy]

25. my father just retired from the military

he was in Vietnam, then went National Guard

many of his friends are Guardsmen too...

I grew up with a lot of these people and I just can't see them doing that...

[Tinoire]

37. Similar. I was in 20 years and can vouch that there are many good people

I still have a ton of people I like who are in and many I liked who have retired.

That was the reason I put the qualifier "given the right national emergency". All they have to do is manufacture something scary enough (medical maybe?).

Let's just hope such a thing never ever takes place. It's not something I see as probable but imagine if martial law were declared or something... martial law to clamp down on domestic enemies of the United States... martial law to prevent the spread of a new contagious disease where they test you and haul you away to protect the general populace... You can finesse this thing in many ways.

As long as they convince soldiers that what they are doing is for the good of the nation, it will get done.

[Desertrose]

21. Isn't it in their oath when they join?

that they will be willing to fire on US citizens if so ordered?
Anyone have a link to something about this??

Talk about complete brainwashing......

Peace
DR

Great Lincoln quote btw
"Familiarize yourselves with the chains of bondage," Lincoln warned, and you prepare your own limbs to wear them. Accustomed to trample on the rights of others, you have lost the genius of your own independence and become the fit subjects of the first cunning tyrant who rises among you."

[Desertrose]

23. Marine oath....

''I, __________, do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.''

**sigh**

Peace
DR

[keithyboy]

11. That's the same reason the Nazis gave. Just following orders.

Well, there is a higher authority if you seek it.

[atreides1]

13. "Just Following Orders"

How often in the 20th Century have we heard this excuse, which was often preceeded by a massacre or the Holocaust. This was the excuse used by Lt Calley of My Lai fame, it was used by members of the SS and the commanders of German and Japanese military commanders.

Now it will be used by US military, and not only commanders but by the troops as well. Nothing will happen, no one will be held accountable for the actions that they took, and the next time this administration gives orders to our military, it will be to turn their
guns on their own people. And I think that they will do it gladly, with no remorse if those guns should go off by "accident" killing fellow Americans.

The US military has now become what it once fought against, they are
protected from being tried for war crimes, and with that knowledge they will kill men, women, and children when ordered to do so.

You see they cannot say no, they are accomplices to the crimes committed by this administration, and like all accomplices they
lack the courage to say no.

[Leilani]

28. Wasn t Lt Calley

tried & convicted?

And did he go to prison?

[Sandpiper]

29. Lt. Calley was the scapegoat

Not that he wasn't culpable, but guess what his defense was?

"I was just following orders."

[Leilani]

17. What do you think the 2nd Amendment is for?

It is not to hunt quail.

It is to protect the citizenry against a tyrannical government.

The American Revolution overthrew King George.

But I really do not believe our military would ever take up arms against its own citizens. We have posse comitatus sp? to prevent the military from being used against citizens.

And I truly believe there are enough people out there in our govt who have not yet lost their minds, & would never allow such a thing to happen.

Call me a dreamer, but I believe posts like this increase the paranoia. We have to go to the polls & turn out the people in govt who are ruining our country.

[Sandpiper]

24. I know what the second amendment is for

But I really do not believe our military would ever take up arms against its own citizens.

But I don't share your optimism. It's already happened before. In 1970, the Ohio National Guard gunned down four unarmed student protesters at Kent State.

[ConcernedCanuk]

22. Read this and make up your own mind

.
.
.

LEAKED VIDEO FOOTAGE OF AN AC-130 SPECTRE GUNSHIP ON A COMBAT MISSION IN AFGHANISTAN

"This unauthorized leaked 7.5 minute video permeated the internet in the spring of 2002. It shows the destruction from an AC-130 Spectre gunship on a combat mission in Afghanistan."

/snip/

In the radio traffic from the AC-130 plane the crew sounds like kids playing a video game. The crew is engaged in combat but from a safe distance and without any threat or resistance from the human targets on the ground. The video shows people leaving a mosque who start running for their lives as they are fired upon. The AC-130 continues circling and firing on individual Afghanis below. The crew sounds like “rednecks” picking off varmints on a Texas ranch as they talk back and forth and fire on the Afghanis one by one:

“Yeah, I was trying to lead that guy…..he was hiding behind that bank….he’s down, he’s still moving…..I saw him fly into pieces….”

It is a frightening and horrifying example of the most powerful military in the world using sophisticated satellite guided and other technology, precision targeting some of the poorest people in the world from airplanes far off the ground. It’s like shooting fish in a barrel. This is the war against the third world.

U.S. NUCLEAR POLICY AND DEPLETED URANIUM TESTIMONY AT THE JUNE 28, 2003, PUBLIC HEARING FOR THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL TRIBUNAL FOR WAR CRIMES IN AFGHANISTAN CHIBA, CHIBA PREFECTURE, JAPAN

Combat video of Afghani civilians targeted from an AC-130 Spectre U.S. military plane http://www.hk94.com/weblog/index.php?p=62&c=1
___________________________________________________________

I didn't check out the video itself, but it does have a warning that it may be "disturbing"

[G_j]

33. there is some scary shit

on that website.

"The war on terrorism in Afghanistan is very much alive and very real. This is the real deal, prepare yourself. This is what it takes.


The comment further down the page about Americans being racist against Arabs is quite compelling.

[ConcernedCanuk]

38. As far as I'm concerned, the using of DU and clusterbombs

.
.
.

Is just a "cleaner" form of Genocide

The unexploded bombs and the leftover Depleted Uranium will continue to kill long after the actual "combat" has stopped.

One of the criteria of "illegal" weapons is that they do NOT continue to kill after the conflict is over.

Both DU and cluster bombs continue to kill long afterwards.

Matter of fact, I believe I read that in North Korea (or maybe it is Vietnam, probably both though) that an average of 3 people a day die from "accidents" with unexploded ordnance from those conflicts.

"The gift that keeps on giving"

(sigh)

[G_j]

40. cluster bombs

A year later, remembering the deadliest weapon

Iraq's Children of the Bomblet
by Kareem Fahim
March 23rd, 2004 12:45 PM

http://www.villagevoice.com/print/issues/0412/fahim.php

In the months after the Iraq war, the unexploded bomblets sat idly in parks, sandlots, school yards, and fields, waiting for kids.

Nihad Jewad, like thousands of Baghdad's children, wandered out to play soccer in late April, after the fighting had stopped. His older brother wasn't sure whether Nihad picked up the device or fell on it. By the time he reached the Saudi-run field hospital, his left hand blown off along with the thumb on his right one, most of his life had flowed out of the blasted femoral artery in his leg.

As the doctors attempted to revive him, an American soldier guarding the clinic approached a photographer. "It's terrible about those land mines," he said, just like that. The comment struck the photographer as sarcastic. Or disingenuous, at least, since the boy clearly hadn't stepped on a mine. The clinic couldn't issue death certificates, nor did it supply coffins, so the Jewads would have to go to another hospital. Later that afternoon, Nihad's family buried him at the cemetery in Abu Ghreib.

The bomblets look like fun to kids. Shiny, tossable pieces of metal, they resemble a large D battery or a small hand grenade. Attached to the bottom are long, white ribbons, rather like streamers a child might fasten to the handlebars of a bike. Human Rights Watch (HRW) estimates that coalition forces left 2 million of these little bombs all over Iraq, killing or injuring perhaps a thousand civilians. Cluster munitions, the group reports, caused more harm to noncombatants than any other weapon during the war.

...more...

[izzie]

26. Posse comitatus is the thing that is to keep them from us but====

I wonder also

[Sandpiper]

27. The rule of law is only effective

If it is respected by the overwhelming majority of the people.

[Leilani]

30. That is why we must get an overwhelming majority

of people to the polls in November to vote out the criminals.

This election will come down to turnout.

Look at the march on Sunday for abortion rights.

The numbers are with us...we need to get them out.

[Sandpiper]

31. I agree

The ballot box is always preferable to the bullet.

[orwell]

34. Patriot II - Posse Comitatus Under Attack

How about this little gem. (Look at the last paragraph):

http://www.projectcensored.org/publications/2004/2.html

The “Domestic Security Enhancement Act of 2003” (AKA Patriot Act II) poses even greater hazards to civil liberties. The draft proposal of Patriot Act II was leaked from Ashcroft's staff in February of 2003 and is stamped 'Confidential — Not for Distribution.' Patriot Act II was widely editorialized against in the U.S. media but full disclosure on the contents, implications and motivations were under developed. In particular, there are three glaring areas that warranted greater coverage by the American media:

The second Patriot Act proposes to place the entire Federal government and many areas of state government under the exclusive jurisdiction of the Justice department, the Office of Homeland Security and the FEMA NORTHCOM military command.

Under section 501, a U.S. citizen engaging in lawful activity can be picked off the streets or from home and taken to a secret military tribunal with no access to or notification of a lawyer, the press, or family. This would be considered "justified" if the agent 'inferred from conduct' suspicious intention. One proposed option is that any violation of Federal or State law could designate a U.S. citizen as an 'enemy combatant' and allow him or her to be stripped of citizenship.

--snip--

In addition, the Bush administration is calling for a repeal of the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878, a law passed after the Civil War to prohibit the deployment of federal military forces onto American streets to control civil action — otherwise known as Martial Law.

O

[Wilber_Stool]

32. I posted this once before

I was playing Army at Fort Riley, Kansas in early 1971. I drove an APC. They assembled about ten of us drivers along with the battalion commander, S2 officer, and several other brass. They told us that we would provide security for Richard Nixon at a speech he would make at Kansas State University. We were to drive APC's onto the campus. I asked what we should do if the demonstrators crowded around the tracks. They said we should just push are way through. It didn't take much thought before I said "I'm just not going to do that." A few seconds passed when a voice from the back said " Your fucking right we're not going to do it." They sent us all back to the barracks. That was the end of the Nixon visit.
Of course, we were all draftees.

[orwell]

36. Question

I'm curious.

Does the UCMJ require that you disobey an unlawful order? In other words, if a commanding officer told you to shoot an unarmed civilian, could you refuse?

And if so, what would constitute an unlawful order? Are you taught what the boundries are in your basic training?

TIA. And thanks for telling them to shove it...

O

[Wilber_Stool]

39. I'm not sure.....

It would have to be under the most unusual of circumstances. In any case, it would be investigated. What endangers civilians is having their neighborhood declared a free fire zone. That means anything that moves get shot.

[mtnester]

35. 2 words should answer your question

Kent State