A Nation of Traitors, or Idiots?

[Hornito]

Occasionally, on days like today, when I see the Bush junta and their media allies performing Orwellian magic, I come back to some very basic questions, and wonder why the American people are allowing these questions to go unanswered.

With all the talk about Kerry's record, Iraq, the 9/11 Commission, SCOTUS, etc., etc. etc., it seems the nation is being purposely consumed. I fear we are nearing overload. This is exactly what the fascists in the White House want. The media is busy delivering the propaganda matrix the Bushies want. But what of the people? Are they so easily diverted, or are they purposely not wanting the answers to some questions here? Are they afraid of the answers, or do they support the fascist intent of the current government?

The question that is being buried, or ignored (take your choice), is a simple one, and the only one that really matters at this point -- Did G.W. Bush, and his Cabinet, lie to the American people to invade another nation that was not a threat to this country? -- Period.

Fuck all the rest of this crap. Bush's record in the National Guard doesn't matter at this point. Neither does Kerry's record in Vietnam. It doesn't matter what Bush's positions on the economy are, or on anything else. This election should come down to one point, and one point only:

Did G.W. Bush, and his Cabinet, lie to the American people to invade another nation that was not a threat to this nation?

If the answer is yes, and it is, the failure of the media, of both political parties, AND A MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE OF THIS NATION to call for the immediate impeachment of this administration, is, in my opinion, treason. This administration has violated our laws. They have violated international law. They have violated morality. They have killed thousands of children and other innocents, and have spent hundreds of billions of OUR dollars doing so.

So putting it simply, there IS NO OTHER ISSUE during this election, and all the horseshit the media is trying to throw at us to keep us from focusing on this question, is nothing more than Orwellian manipulation. Why isn't John Kerry making this his #1 issue? Why aren't the Democratic members of our Congress demanding impeachment hearings, or at the least, demanding an independent prosecutor? Why isn't the media? The answers to those questions, provide a glimpse as to the health of our democracy.

And most importantly (once again) why aren't the PEOPLE of this nation demanding truth and justice? Where is the outcry? The answer to that question is most scary. Imagine how the people of the Mid-East (and the rest of the world) must feel when they hear our silence. Either we are a nation of easily dissuaded and manipulated dolts, or a majority of us supports the fascist regime that took this nation over in December of 2000. Which is it? I fear the answer, either way.

Now, about questions and answers regarding 9/11, ...............

[Hornito]

1. OK fine....

No one wants to respond to my rant. Sorry if I've offended anyone, but I cannot seem to control my incredulousness over the fact that, one, the Bushies are getting away with literal murder, and two, this nation (present company excepted) is letting them get away with it.

I simply can't deal with it...

[InformedSource]

2. I'll respond; you haven't offended me

The American people, by and large, like to be lied to. The entire advertising industry is based on this fact. The fact that so many of them believe the Bush bullshit, in my view, directly relates to their constant exposure to commercials that make claims that couldn't possibly be true. Somewhere in their heart of hearts, deep down, they know that gooey creams aren't going to make them as beautiful as supermodels and that beer isn't going to make guys into babe magnets, but it's so much more fun to "suspend disbelief" and hope that maybe it'll be true just this once, for them.

The Bushistas themselves are trapped in this psychology -- if we say it, it has to be true. I think Junior truly believes that the WMD are stil there somewhere and that Saddam was somehow connected to Osama.

A populace so thoroughly conditioned to avoid reality and live on wish fulfillment sees President Junior as one of them. The more we point out the lies, the more sympathetic he seems to them, as if it's somehow not his fault that the WMDs haven't turned up.

I haven't a clue as to how to overcome this. Those who believe in Bush aren't going to stop doing so easily. Little things like facts and blatant hypocricy aren't going to disrupt their love affair with how they wish things were.

[Hornito]

12. Thanks for responding Informed...

Perhaps they do like to be lied to. They certainly get a lot of it from this administration.

[maggrwaggr]

23. they're like children. I just tucked my eight year old into bed

and she needed some reassurance that we wouldn't get robbed. Apparently one of her friends at school told her they got robbed once.

It was a lie, of course, when I told her we would never get robbed, but it's what she wanted to hear.

A hell of a lot of people are not only stupid, but immature. They act like children even though they're adults.

They want "leaders" who will tell them what they want to be true.

It's enough to make you a major misanthrope.

[smokeey]

32. OK Fine

I am new here and so I hope I don't make mistakes or break rules before I know the ropes. I agree with you about Bush, but I have a question that goes beyond Bush.

Recently, I joined (or attempted to join) the far right group on line called Freerepublic.com. It is moderated and run by a person named Jim Robinson who appears to be quite notorious, and also is or has been sued in court regarding his activities on the site. I wanted to get on the site because of a particular topic that was being discussed there. I was not going there as a conservative but rather to enter into discussion with the conservatives to try to understand their point of view, narrow as it is.

Well I think I did manage to make a couple posts there before Mr Robinson banned me. Several subsequent attempts to join were met with welcome letters from Jim Robinson but when I tried to post, I found that my rights had been revoked.

It is obvious that freerepublic is free only to those who toe the Jim Robinson line, which is a very very narrow line.

Does anyone here have any information on freerepublic or Jim Robinson? From the little I have learned I get the impression that freerepublic and Jim Robinson are not in the best interest of the USA.

Any help you can give me will be appreciated.

[Hornito]

35. Wrong thread for this...

n/t

[Q]

50. The MEDIA was the people's only voice...

..and that has been taken from them. All that's left are politicians that have been told that they're either with or against the Bush* regime. Those against are quickly smeared or destroyed by squads of journalist hitmen.

- MOST Americans are too busy making a living and paying the bills to get involved in politics. They DEPEND on their representatives to represent them and their interests. But that's not happening.

[maggrwaggr]

59. right. Most people don't know the system is BROKEN and

and who's gonna tell 'em? The press?

The press is never gonna say "we're screwing you".

It's up to people like us. Which really sucks, because it shouldn't BE our job!

[leftofthedial]

3. a majority of apathetic ignorant sheep

a minority of traitors who are highly skilled at manipulating them.

[Hornito]

6. Agreed....

n/t

[SarahB]

7. I think it is just that

Most people just don't understand or care what the reality is. It's easier to stick their heads in the sand, wave a flag (not that they care about what really makes America- our Constitution), and pretend like corporate whores have their best interests at heart.

[Hornito]

11. You must be right Sarah. They just don't give a damn. What

will it take for them TO give a damn? Must we wait for those we have offended and harmed to take bloody revenge on us, before we wake up to the fact that our laziness and immorality has helped to produce the fascist regime that now, in our name, seeks to dominate the world, and its resources? Must it come to that?

I hope not...

[SarahB]

15. Fear will also cause people to further sink into the rabbithole

I honestly don't know what it will take to wake people up other than something along the lines of a Depression (not that I'd want it). It honestly frightens me though how historically Democracy and enlightenment can often be cyclical. I fear with current technological capabilities, we could see much of the planet destroyed in a big boom or slowly and painfully due to environmental damage. If not this, human suffering at even at even worse scale than is already taking place.

[maggrwaggr]

26. I fear what started with an attack will end with an attack

I fear that somebody will have to attack the United States in order to wake it up and expose our own crimes to ourselves.

It started with 9/11 and I am afraid that it will end with catastrophe. 9/11 was nothing compared to what will happen if the world decides we must be stopped.

Right now, most people outside of the US think the US is a bigger threat than terrorism.

Do you think very many Americans know this?

[leftofthedial]

30. I got my SUV

and they haven't cut my hours too much down at Wal Mart.

There's football and beer and a new season of Survivor.

What do I care?

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[leftofthedial]

45. you know, there is a spell checker; too bad there is no logic checker

I expressed no opinion one way or the other about myself.

I'm certainly no shepherd. That doesn't keep me from recognizing sheep when I see them, hear them and smell them.

Besides, why does my opinion of myself have any bearing whatsoever on the subject at hand? I could be the most arrogant, egotistical asshole who ever walked the planet and still be right.

Leave the ad hominem to the freepers and neocons.

[BiggJawn]

4. I see what you mean about the overload...

Crimminy, I expect to see an ad with Mike Dukakis throwing a tank with Willie Horton hangin' out the hatch over the White House fence any day now, with Dumbya in the background going "Ah'm George Bush, an' I approved this message, even tho I have NO idea what Karl's doing THIS time!"

"Did G.W. Bush, and his Cabinet, lie to the American people to invade another nation that was not a threat to this nation?"

Damn right they did, but as Joe "Lori Killer" Scarborough said tonight "You can't say bad things about our Kommandur-in-Chief when there's a WAHR on, like that evil Teddy and Hillary did!"

How any person of intelligence can watch that DREK!

What to do? ReTHUGlicans everywhere, coming out of the classifieds in the paper, even, all busting Kerry's chops, and where are the Democrats? What does it say when the Democratic Candidate's staunchest ally is a RETHUGLICAN???? Why are they letting McCain doing THEIR job? or are they out there, and the "Liberal Media" just isn't letting them be heard?

[Hornito]

8. LOL! Dukakis and the tank with Willie Horton. Stop it.

Don't give Rove any ideas.

[brokensymmetry]

5. You say there is no other issue...

And, for you, that may be true. For a number of fine people on DU, that is also true.

However, for the general electorate, it isn't. The economy is the primary factor - to the point that if the stock market (say, the S&P 500) is higher on November 2 than it was on January 1, you can generally expect the incumbent to stay in power.

If the U.S. appears to be winning in Iraq by, say, late September - with a major decline in deaths and injuries of U.S. service men and women - the incumbent will likely enjoy higher approval numbers.

Look at the polls. As matters stand, there does not appear to be a groundswell of public opinion that supports your position.

[Hornito]

9. What you are saying then, is that people's pocketbooks far

outweigh their sense of morality and justice (and this, despite polls showing at least 50% our population consider themselves to be "religious")? What does THAT say about this country?

And if Bush enjoys higher poll numbers for conducting an illegal invasion of another sovereign country, what does THAT say about his country?

If the stock market is cooking come September, a majority will vote to elect a president who has lied to them nearly every day he has been in office, and who lied to them in starting an illegal war that has killed tens of thousands of people? What does THAT say about this country?

What does it say to the rest of the world about the character of the American people? At this rate, we will have millions of terrorists trying to kill Americans and harm American interests the world over, and when that happens, who's fault will it be?

[Muddleoftheroad]

20. Tip O'Neill said all politics is local. It is

I know it shocks and awes many here that most Americans don't see things as they do, but that is simply the case. Most are not as politically active, nor do they look at things as being quite so dire.

That means they make decisions based on their own lives, not on what YOU wish for them.

Wow, Bush lied to them. Gee, I guess THAT'S unusual for a politician. See what I mean? Americans just don't let it get to them -- unless their lives are negatively impacted.

[Hornito]

25. Ignorance is bliss, eh?

You're right of course, but what a shame. Apparently people have forgotten history's lessons. A democracy cannot survive without participation, and one must be awake to participate.

[Muddleoftheroad]

27. They are awake

They are awake to their child's sickness or their problems at work. They are awake to their house price and putting food on the table.

The world has grown complex, but our lives still only have 24 hours a day to manage it.

People do the best they can.

[Dunedain]

37. You couldn't be more right

It's the GI-Joe with the kung-foo handgrip.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[timtom]

46. This is interesting...

I've noticed that the constant on-going polls always seem to report that *'s position in the polls is rising to (oh, say, 46% or so..)

It's almost as if the people who are polled have no fixed position and are buffeted about by the fickle winds of change. (The DOW is up, the DOW is down.)

I believe this should send a clear message to the rest of the world about the character of the American people.

I'm afraid that it's nothing more than "Oh good. I've got my reality TV and my 30-day supply of erectile dysfunction medicine. I'm good to go."

I personally know several nice and intelligent people at work who just don't want to know. One fellow maintains that ignorance is bliss.

I feel very sad for America.

[BiggJawn]

47. But they are interconnected.

The economy didn't tank until Candidates Bush and Cheney went around the country going "Yep, I think the economy's getting ready to trip and fall down, yep, that Clinton's ridin' a bubble..."

They just lie about everything. They lied about Iraq. They lied about what they knew about OBL and 9-11. They lie about the "Recovery". Financial news is all blue smoke and mirrors, with Lou Dobbs and Bob Brinker the only ones on the air going "WTF????" while most of the greek chorus is spinning the gloom from Pondscum as "it's not as bad as Alan says(if you have a HUGE portfolio full of war stocks)..."

Lies, damnable lies, and Bush Lies...And yet, the Pfleghmball Ditto-Monkey Army keep parroting "T'weren't th' SEX, 'twas th' LIEIN' thet did Klintoon in..."

And as I have stated elsewhere, "polls are COOKED". They HAVE to be! To believe the polls have any creendence, you'd have to believe that we INDEED live in a Nation of Idiots.

[maggrwaggr]

10. PNAC's theory of creating chaos isn't just for other countries

It's for here as well. Who can even keep track of all the scandals? There are new ones every day. And when a new one pops up, suddenly there are more dead soldiers, more bombings, more scandals to take its place.

They're doing it on purpose, and they're doing it here as well as around the world.

The trouble is, the American people have no idea what is hitting them. The American people have never been victims of a 100% corrupt and criminal government.

PEOPLE THINK THAT IT CAN'T HAPPEN HERE.

But it has. WE KNOW IT HAS. That's why we're here. The rest of the country is in BIG denial about it.

Most of us probably remember the moment when we realized this. How do we get the word out, when the media is complicit with the right-wing government?

PEOPLE THINK THE MEDIA WILL DO THEIR JOB.

We know they're not.

The media is our BIGGEST ENEMY RIGHT NOW.

How to fight the media? Well I've been struggling with that every day (that I have time).

[Hornito]

13. You are spot on Maggrwaggr........

I have been saying for a couple of years now, that if we ever do get this nation back into the hands of a democracy, the media must be held to account for their crimes. I am thinking of something on the order the Nuremberg trials.

These people are traitors in the true sense of the word. They have betrayed this nation, and have facilitated the overthrow of our republican democracy. PROPAGANDA IS NOT PROTECTED BY THE FIRST AMENDMENT!!!

At the least, if Kerry is allowed to win, he must, by Executive Order, bring back the Fairness Doctrine, immediately! He should also instruct his Attorney General to start RICO proceedings against all of the major media companies, and file anti-monopoly suits against all of them as well. They must be rendered to a state where they are never again allowed to betray this nation.

[maggrwaggr]

18. "PROPAGANDA IS NOT PROTECTED BY THE FIRST AMENDMENT!!!"

Can you back that up?

Because if you can, if there are in fact laws against propaganda, I sure as hell want to know about it.

But now I'm thinking there simply can't be, or else advertising would be illegal.

Hmmmmmmmm.

I am with you 1000%. Hell, when I write to news organizations, or news people, I always give them the Nuremburg trial comparisons, I basically threaten them.

My dream is to have them all on trial, Bush, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Perle, Frum, Wolf Blitzer, all of Faux News, Scarborough, Rush .....

They all need to be thrown in jail. Or worse.

[Hornito]

22. I should have put that statement in context. The context, is that

if propaganda is used to harm, kill, or, say destroy a democracy, it is not, in my opinion, protected by the 1st Amendment. In other words, if we got these jerks on trial for their dirty deeds, I don't believe they could use the 1st as a defense. I could be wrong, but I would hope that they could not be afforded protection under the circumstance I outlined.

[maggrwaggr]

29. unfortunately I don't think our opinion counts for much

I'm trying to find a lawyer who agrees with us, but I'm not sure they're out there.

I want to sue them.

Call me crazy, but somebody's gotta do it.

[Muddleoftheroad]

24. You basically threaten them?

Someone ought to give you a copy of How To Make Friends and Influence People.

When you do stuff like that, the media write you off as a crackpot. they know there is no chance in hell of them going to jail for reporting the news.

And you are right about propaganda. The 1st Amendment protects that as well. After all, one man's propaganda is another's opinion or fact.

[maggrwaggr]

33. why be nice? I'm sick of being nice. We got where we are by being nice

fuck being nice.

Here's a snippet from what I wrote to someone at CNN:

<<I hope you folks remember what happened after the Nationalist Socialist Party in Germany finally went down.

We had these things called the "Nuremburg trials".

The propagandists for the Germans are JUST AS GUILTY as those who committed the actual atrocities.>>

I honestly don't expect to change the modus operandi at CNN any more than I would expect to change it at Fox.

They have made their choice and they're sticking to it.

That's why we need to fight them, not plead, not write polite letters.

FUCK THAT.

We need to go after them, their sponsors, and the companies that give them access to an audience (the cable providers).

Listen up, folks, these people declared war on US a long time ago. They're kicking our ass and what are we doing? Writing letters to the editor?

HA.

We need to get out there and fight these fascists.

[Muddleoftheroad]

34. The media are not our enemy

Though clearly you have made them yours.

I worked in news for several years. Most folks in that profession are liberal, tolerant and Democratic.

Claiming those same folks are going to face "Nuremburg trials" is not only unfair to them, it's downright laughable.

OK, you don't want to be nice, how about trying to be realistic or even rational?

[Hornito]

38. I've got over 25 years in the news and media business....

(retired now), and I don't agree Muddle. But perhaps some clarification is in order.

Your basic media person may be "liberal", and "tolerant", and even Democratic, but things have changed. It's the upper management who are the Republicans, and who are insisting that these reporters toe THEIR ideological line, ...if they want to keep their jobs. And then there's the matter of the big media reporters, many of whom are millionaires, and are now voting Republican. Did you read where when Bush attended a group of media people earlier this week, that when he talked about his tax cuts, the crown of assembled reporters loudly cheered? That doesn't sound like Democrats to me.

There's still plenty of liberal media people out there, but unfortunately, with all of the Republican approved consolidations of mass media, and the fact that almost every one of these big conglomerates is either Republican owned, managed, or both, things aren't like they used to be.

So I pretty much agree with Maggrwaggr. It's time for the gloves to come off, and to let these people know that we are holding them responsible for their part in helping to destroy our republican democracy. THEY ARE AS GUILTY AS ANY OF THE OTHER PLAYERS.

[Muddleoftheroad]

51. You say "guilty" like it's a crime. It's not

As for the Bush talk with journalists, don't you think that group was CAREFULLY chosen? It was filled with the David Brooks or John Podhoretz types -- uber neocons, not real journalists of any stripe.

Yes, there has been media consolidation. There has also been media growth -- Internet, magazines, newspapers, e-mail, etc. The Powers That Be control less than ever, not more.

[maggrwaggr]

39. sorry, right now the media IS our enemy

I guess we disagree on this.

Been watching CNN lately?

Been watching Fox?

How about those shows on MSNBC like Scarborough and how 'bout the other day on Kudlow and Kramer when these two idiots were SHOUTING at these congresspeople who are trying to get our prescription drug prices lowered by letting drugs made in the same company that are going to both here and Canada, but are marked up here to the tune of 200% -- these people were SHOUTING at them, saying they were going to DESTROY the American pharmaceutical industry.

Sorry, pal, the media is the BIGGEST enemy of Democracy today.

[Hornito]

42. And how about the chorus today on every single one of these

cable networks, piling on Kerry over the medals/ribbons flap. WTF? Tell me it's not a conspiracy! These bastards are traitors to this nation. They have sold out our democracy. Our Founding Fathers knew that a democracy could not exist without a free, honest, and open Fourth Estate, and took steps to insure a healthy, and viable free press. Problems was, they never envisioned what Republicans and the FCC would do to their work.

A free press is an essential component to democracy, and when the press colludes to spread government propaganda, that's called totalitarianism and FASCISM!! Guess what? We've arrived, thanks to Fox, MSNBC, CNN, the NY Times, and all the rest. Fuckers.

[Muddleoftheroad]

48. Why do people here watch Faux?

It's like paying attention to al-Jazeerah. They are both ridiculous.

CNN is far from perfect but no one will ever be satisfied with what the media does.

In general, the cable broadcast media is a TINY part of the broadcast audience and lacks the impact that Walter Cronkite used to wield in his pinky.

[loudsue]

14. Every post I've read here is true. It's sad, and it's scary. But true.

I don't know, Hornito. I'm one of the most passionate activists I know in my neighborhood. But even in my own household, my significant other and his 23-year-old daughter won't even watch the NEWS! (Such that it is...and it's probably just as well.)

It's sports, or soap operas, or Law & Order, or CSI. They don't know, and they don't CARE what's going on in the world, as long as they have a roof over their heads, and food in the house, plumbing and phones that work, and a bed to sleep in.

I've shared with them things about what is going on, and then a couple of months later, I make them listen to what I was telling them when it comes on the news. (Like Greg Palast says: "Conspiracy Theory is what it's called six months before the media sells it as "news".") It doesn't stir them. It hardly registers.

Until we're all eating off dirt floors in this country, the sheep aren't going to wake up...I'm convinced. If 9/11 doesn't do it, and a false war doesn't do it, and rising prices and massive unemployment doesn't do it, I can only assume that, until they've lost everything, they won't bother.

It's sad & scary. But true.

Bush should be impeached. He SHOULD be in jail. But when corporations OWN the congress and the media and the voting machines, we are truly overpowered. Unless we have a real rebellion in the U.S., I don't see it changing until we're all eating on dirt floors.

:kick:

[Hornito]

17. More and more, I am coming to the same conclusions Loudsue.

We are sliding down the hill of fascist dictatorship so fast now, I am afraid that nothing short of a horrible catastrophe(s) will reverse the trend. As difficult as it is for this Constitution- loving patriot to admit, Canada is looking awfully good right now, though I would come back in a minute for a REAL revolution!

[loudsue]

40. Funny you should say that...

I've been struggling with the Canadian issue myself. I'd have to leave my significant other/family to do it, because they wouldn't budge. But this country is really starting to scare the snot out of me. The Patriot Act has, for all practical purposes, made EVERYTHING illegal....hell! They can make up something and throw you in gitmo, and nobody can say anything about it -- you can't even make a phone call!

And I fear that things could get nasty without much warning! At that point, nobody would be ALLOWED to leave, if you know what I'm saying.

The group that has taken over is evil...really, truly evil to the core. And they're brainwashing more brownshirts every day.

I wish I had a skill set that was marketable in other countries...but I've been in my profession for 30 years, and it doesn't translate to anything outside the U.S.

And, yes...if there was a real rebellion, I'd be puttin' the boots to the ground to fight for my country. But with their new high-tech brain-frying tools, they'd make short work of a citizens rebellion. I have every idea they did that high-tech stuff in Falluja today.

I'm still sick about that masacre. It's just wrong. It's just so damn wrong!

:kick:

[maggrwaggr]

19. we're probably a lot like the Japanese people during WWII

Who really had no idea that their government was up to no good.

They got nuked before they figured it out.

What's gonna happen to America? That's what worries the hell out of me.

America's wakeup call is gonna be a doozy. 9/11 didn't even do it, everybody just hit the "snooze" button.

The reason Europe is so far ahead of us on all this shit is because of WWII. They were nearly destroyed, and they see what fascism can do, and can do to them personally. They know.

Americans don't know. It's never happened here, till now.

[Muddleoftheroad]

21. Oh yeah, sheep.

Calling them that will wake them up alright -- just in time to vote Republican.

[loudsue]

36. Ya know, Muddle....that's a good name for you...."muddle"

You are always jumping into threads to throw in that line (or a similar version of..)"just in time to vote republican". And, ya know, you almost always capitalize "republican"....which a lot of us on this board are physically unable to do. You keep insinuating that somehow people are stupid -- and that something like that would even make them THINK of voting one way or another.

And, ya know, it just bothers the hell out of me. But I'm not worried about your ominous warnings on the subject of who might "vote republican"....much less because of something I might say on an internet forum.

[Hornito]

41. You go Loudsue....

n/t

[Muddleoftheroad]

49. I used to be a journalist

I capitalize correctly whenever possible. Sorry if that bothers you -- not.

What bothers me is the people who think they are better than ordinary folks. What bothers me is the people who are so bent out of shape that they are twisted. What bothers me is people who allow their little annoyances to miss the big picture -- winning an election.

And it's not just an Internet forum. The contempt that elites feel for ordinary people is obvious. And the word gets out. And you know what happens? The ordinary people either vote against you or, if they feel the elites of both parties are assholes, they simply don't vote.

[cornfedyank]

16. most people quit thinking in their teens..after that they coast.

newton's first law

I. Every object in a state of uniform motion tends to remain in that state of motion unless an external force is applied to it. ---Sir Isaac Newton with a little help from Galileo Galilei

it works with things as small as thoughts.

[nonconformist]

28. Simple truths

Nobody likes admitting when they're wrong. The American people especially. To now confront that it was based on lies means that the people who supported the war must admit they were wrong. That's all icky and stuff, so instead it's easier to ignore it. That is one of the main reasons why Bush still has the amount of support he does.

This is a huge voting issue with me too - but it's definitely not the only issue. My husband lost his job at the end of February and STILL hasn't found any work (he's a skilled tradesman) and the Unemployment office has been utterly useless so we still have no income. So I'm just a *tad* concerned with the job market.

[gate of the sun]

31. both

People aren't demanding the truth because fox and cnn told them what that truth is.....certainly you know that....what's next folks a bush america or a kerry america same ole same ole.......except Kerry might get some UN in to clean up our dirty work...maybe. so when is someone going to stand up? I guarantee Kucinich will have a few words to say about today's slaughter..but will Kerry? I hope so because I'm pretty much done with his sorry ass. Unless he stands up and says killing Iraqi's has nothing to do with regime change in Iraq, nor does it have anything to do with WMD's. Killing Iraqi's is killing Iraq's and what the hell are we doing that for? Democracy under a killing field is Imperialism pure and simple.

[Only Me]

43. On Hardball,...

and I won't quote Kerry, but I am sure the transcripts will come soon and you can check what he said for yourself.

But as I understood him, I believe he was saying that one of the reasons we attacked was because we were all falsly lead to believe that there were WMD. But he also said that he believed that Bush and CO. had a hidden a agenda in starting an unfounded war. He also made the comment that if the intelligence people were this screwed up, then why didn't Bush fire a bunch of people for their incompetence, for which he did'nt, unless, Bush was involved too.
Supporting the thought that this was a premeditated war.
But it is only theory because we do not have, not yet anyway, the iron clad evidence that this war was preplanned or we were deliberately lied to. Personally, I do not need it.
I know in my heart he is aliar, but most the public is looking for that "Silver Bullet" to fly through the air and smack em on the head and say "Wake-UP! Your President is a disgrace!!!

[Hornito]

54. I think there is overwhelming evidence that the Bush regime

lied to the nation about Iraq (and about 100's of other issues). How much more proof is needed? I say, there is enough proof, and so do many lawyers and constitutional experts (www.impeachbush.org). There's certainly more than enough evidence to start investigational and impeachment proceedings. But, as the Republicans now control the agenda in Congress, they will not allow it to reach the floor for a vote. This is criminal collusion, conspiracy, and high treason.

Those members of Congress (and the media) that are working to keep this issue from being discussed in Congress, should, along with this administration, be arrested and tried for treason. Of course, this won't happen, which shows nothing less than a complete breakdown of our democracy and system of justice, and further, that the nation now exists under a dictatorship.

As we know, our only hope is the elections. If they fail, then we will have only three choices: revolution; moving out of the country; accepting status quo.

[Muddleoftheroad]

55. Find us a president who hasn't lied

Please. And THEN we can use it. But after Bill lied and Nixon lied and Kennedy etc. the American public just doesn't get to excited about it.

[Hornito]

56. I guess that makes it OK then? NOT!

n/t

[Muddleoftheroad]

58. No, it just means most people treat it as a given

And they are right on that at least.

[maggrwaggr]

60. John Dean said Watergate didn't kill anybody

today or yesterday, I can't remember.

That is a good point to remember.

How many people has Bush killed:

Death Row in Texas (executions): __________

American soldiers: __________

Iraqi civilians: ___________

American civilians in Iraq: ___________

Foreign nationals in Iraq: ____________

And if you believe MIHOP: ____________

Do the math. It's going up every day.

[DemLikr]

52. TRAITOROUS IDIOTS!

[truthspeaker]

57. Idiots.

With an element of racism.

[Generator]

61. No, two words: Lazy and apathetic

That's why we need the draft.

It's the only thing that will hit everyone equally(well as equally as unfairly the draft would be, I know a paradox)and make them realize they need to know what and how they are fighting for, paying for and that LIES matter!

[Jacobin]

62. I happen to agree with everything you say

Unfortunately, we are in the minority.

There are dems, including the nominee, who think it was fine to invade IraqNam, but that it should have been done "better". That to me is treasonous.

There are dems who really think we can't "cut and run" because we will "bring them democracy" and they appear to be as ideologically blinded by the neo-cons (but for a kinder purpose) as the neo-cons are by their own b.s.

This is colonialism at its worst, and is based on the racist assumption that only the "white men" in the west can give brown people good government.

From a purely geo-political standpoint of the success at stealing the oil, it is also a disaster. At 2 million barrels a day, with $160 billion a year in military costs and 'rebuilding' costs, the oil we steal averages $271 per barrel.

This is a monumental clusterfuck of epic proportions and the dem candidate will perpetuate it. The only reason I'm commited to vote for him is my thin hope that he won't invade Syria and Iran and the social issues in this country, which I also put second to the war crimes we are commiting in terms of importantce.

[tom_paine]

63. Both

n/t

[Steely_Dan]

64. 700+ Dead

I brought this up the other day and I hope it hasn't already been re-expressed here in this post...

I am of the belief that the American people are in complete denial. For them to admit that we invaded another country, losing well over 700 of our soldiers (countless civilians and thousands wounded)for reasons that have been shown to be lies, is more than they can handle.

It is easier for the population to stay "in denial" than it is to admit how wrong we have been. What we have done is, in some ways, so horrific and so unbelievable, that to "accept" it...admit to it, is more than most people can actually deal with.

That's my take.

-Paige