Anti Choicers can best be described as...

[corporatewhore]

This can probably be seen as flame bait but as i was telling my friend the other day i have no respect for those who do not respect me, my decision making abilities or my right to have autonomy over my own god damn body!!! what kind of 1984 Orwellian world do these crypto fascists live in where they think it is all right and even goddamn sanctimonious to tell me and others what they can and cant should and shouldn't do to their own bodies.have they gone through a time warp where women shouldn't be trusted to make important decisions over her own well being!!uggghhhh

[revcarol]

1. Forced pregnancy dictators.

Ya missed that one.

Glad to see you back again, corporatewhore.

[Qutzupalotl]

68. or "Enforced Pregnancy Advocates"

I heard that in a video somewhere. Nice.

[Dark]

2. Hypocritical, bitch-ass, dope-fiend, sadistic, chauvanistic, demagougish

fundamentalist, asinine, insipid, moronic, perfidious, close minded nut-jobs who can't get even a date so they don't want anyone else to.

God, I hate them.

[outinforce]

28. Hatred Is A Terrible Thing

"God, I hate them."

Hatred is a terrible thing, you know?

It usually does more damage to the person who hates than it does to the person who is hated.

For instance, it can cause perfectly reasonable and loving people to say things like this about people with whom they simply disagree:

"Hypocritical, bitch-ass, dope-fiend, sadistic, chauvanistic, demagougish, fundamentalist, asinine, insipid, moronic, perfidious, close minded nut-jobs who can't get even a date so they don't want anyone else to."

[SemperEadem]

56. Hall monitor mommy alert!!!!!

watch your mouth!! we only want wholesome, sanitized Disney-Imagineered thoughts here!!!!!! It's not nice to hate!!! Only nice people can post here!!

[outinforce]

60. Relax!

Relax.

I never meant to pre-censor anyone's comments here. As long as people adhere to DU's rules for posting (which I don't enforce), I don't believe I have any legitimate beef with anyone.

The post to which you were responding, SemperEadem, merely reflected my own observations about the effects of hatred.

My own view is that hatred is corrosive -- and that most of the corrsoin happens to the person who does the hating.

You, or anyone else on DU for that matter, can hate to your heart's content. You can posts things that are unwholesome, unsanitarty, and are the results of un-Disney-engineeered thoughts 365/24/7 for all I care.

And I truly do not care if "nice" people or "un-nice" people post on DU.

DU is not my website. I do not make the rules here.

But I think I can post observations about things like hatred, bigotry, prejudice, and all the other things most Liberals (I think) abhor.

Sorry if it bothers you. You do not have to read my posts, you know.

[wuushew]

3. Right or wrong...they epouse ideas incompatible with a secular society

I fail to see why intent is given more consideration than outcomes. To me this seems to indicate a lack of rational thought.

[eileen from OH]

4. I did not vote. And while I am firmly pro-choice

There are a lot of pro-life people who are not fascists, uterus Nazi's etc. They are people who simply believe that abortion is murder. And just as you or I would want to intervene to prevent a murder, they feel it is their obligation to do so as well.

As someone who has personally struggled with this issue and has come down on the pro-choice side because of practical, pragmatic reasons I find it offensive to label any and all pro-life people this way. They have their share of total whackjobs, but - let's face it - so does our side.

As with all divisive issues, the only way we will find some sort of accommodation or common ground is by respecting opposing viewpoints and at least TRYING to understand where they are coming from. And off-the-wall nasty rhetoric is the least effective way of doing that. No, we will never win over the hard core. But for those on the fence, name calling is a questionable tactic for persuasion.

eileen from OH

[theo4487]

5. We are all fighting for what we belive...

Well said.

[specimenfred1984]

9. But "They" Try to Pass Laws the Majority Don't Want

So, it's not democracy "they" believe in. At best, it's anti-democracy which is what's so offending about it.

Sure, people have different opinions and keeping freedom of speech does indeed mean respecting others opinions, include the pro-choice majority that wants to keep government out of the abortion issue.

Any group that blatently tries to dispose of democracy in America opens itself up to the abuse of the masses the group itself is trying to abuse.

[eileen from OH]

12. But from their point of view

abortion is murder. They honestly, truly believe this. And we DO have laws against murder. That's what I'm trying to say - try, just for a minute, to see it the way they do. The government is involved when it comes to murder, right? So they don't understand why the government can't be involved in outlawing it.

I just dislike the demonizing that's done on both sides - which was precisely my point.

eileen from OH

[REP]

22. Don't Believe Their Lies

"But from their point of view abortion is murder."

Oh really?

How many antiabortnoids have you heard calling for abortion to be prosecuted as a murder would be? If abortion is murder, than it is first-degree murder, as there is planning and hiring of another (a doctor) to carry out the murder. That is punishable by the death penalty or life in prison.

Even when abortion was illegal in the US, abortion was not prosecuted as murder.

Let's go one step further. If they really thought first-degree murder with malice aforethought was taking place, is holding up faked pictures and yelling the best hey can do to prevent it from happening? Where are the hunger strikes? Where are the self-immolations, as happened to protest the Vietnam war? Their actions - such as they are - are not the actions of people who truly believe that murder is happening on a vast scale. They don't believe their own rhetoric; never have.

If they don't act like they believe what they're saying, how can I act as though they are sincere and deserve respect?

[SemperEadem]

58. yeah, but to many of them, capital punishiment is ok, too

[Scairp]

67. Their point of view is purely religious

Amendment XIV

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

This is from the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States. It says, as you can see for yourself, that "persons born" in this country are entitled to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Where does it say that the unborn have the same rights as those already born? Your argument (and theirs) that their belief that abortion is murder and therefore justifies any action to prevent it as anyone would any murder has no basis in law, it is purely religious.

[rinsd]

51. Poor analogy....

For couple reasons, first the majority supported slavery, Jim Crow and a whole host of bad shit including the current Iraq War. Which not to go off too far on a tangent, is why direct democracy is mob rule.

2nd, polls are split on the issue. The majority support choice of abortion in cases of rape incest and danger to the mother's life. After that support is varied. But if you start to define certain aspects of the laws they have passed or wanted passed(parental notification/consent, partial birth, 24 hour waiting period) with the above exemptions, the polls tell of a majority support. Granted its a fluid issue not to be relied upon polls(look at gay marriage, support has dropped since the MA decision but civil unions have stayed at the same level or risen in their populairty).

[Djinn]

13. I'm going to have to stop posting on DU

because eileen from OH keeps getting in before me and posting exactly what I was going to say!

you probably should have had "mixed bunch" response. The people who want to scream at women at clinics and force pictures of full term fetus' in their face - well they're fascists. Plenty more wouldn't dream of doing that and just write lots of letters of their local pollies.

[corporatewhore]

18. as some one else pointed out i dont mind "pro lifers" if they respect my

right to choose but when they cross that line of saying i have no right to control my own goddamn body then i call them fascists and rightly so

[Djinn]

20. Totally with you there corporatewhore

"as some one else pointed out i dont mind "pro lifers" if they respect my right to choose but when they cross that line of saying i have no right to control my own goddamn body then i call them fascists and rightly so"

I'd actually go a bit further if they try and control MY body I tend to loose control of it and can not be held responsible for any flying limbs/fists/feet etc (I work opposite a clinic where amongst other things abortions are performed - every now and then there's some fuck-nut with a picture of a dead full term baby hassling anyone who comes in - more often than not for something completely unrelated to abortion - but mostly it's just this old bloke quietly holding a sign with scripture and he doesn't seem to bother anyone)

[Lauren2882]

72. I had the same response

I didn't vote either. I think that the vast majority of pro-lifers are reasonable people. I'm pro-choice too, but not fervently. (Perhaps I would become more fervent if the right to choose were about to be taken away?- I don't know).
Furthermore, I think the abortion debate is toxic to progressive politics, and it drives away more people from the Democratic party than it draws in.

[REP]

6. Where's "Vile Scum"?

Really, though, I can't think of a phrase that adequately describes just how nasty, hateful, pathetic and downright moronic anti-choice antiabortnoids are.

[outinforce]

26. Hateful?

Let's see here.

"Anti-choice antiabortionoids" (whatever that means) are:

vile scum
nasty
pathetic
donwright moronic

Oh, yes, and hateful, too.

Ms. Pot -- please meet Ms. Kettle.

[Selwynn]

35. My mother is pro-life - and she's fifity times the person you seem to be.

Not everyone who is against abortion is hateful, pathetic, moronic of any of the other ridiculous, closeminded assholish terms you throw around.

I swear to christ this fucking sight sounds more like freeperville every fucking day. I would expect to go there to see this kind of hate for people who disagree, to see this kind of all or nothing thinking or stupid ignorant namecalling. I'm getting really tired of it.

[corporatewhore]

40. i am sorry i just seem to have no respect for those

who want to impose there control on my own goddamn body!!sheesh cant a girl even demand control her own uterus with out having to be polite !!!

[REP]

71. Women Must Be Meek and Tolerant

There are certain words and ideas that are understood here to be verboten - ideas such as homosexual men are pedophiles, or that African-Americans are somehow inferior. Espousing such craptacular nonsense gets someone banned, and rightly so. No one is encouraged to be tolerant of such deranged nonsense, or encouraged to respect those beliefs, even if they are sincerely held, as they are recognised for what they are.

But if someone wants to say that abortion is genocide, well, then, we've got to be tolerant of such a view. When someone says abortion must be banned because someday there might be a test for gayness and gay fetuses would be aborted en masse, there is no outrage at the tarring women with the brush of homophobia. Instead of laughing at this paranoid vision of ifs, whens and maybes, we're supposed to be tolerant and not say things that might offend anyone who suffers from such delusions.

I call bullshit. Anyone who wants to regulate the contents of another's body is not worthy of tolerating. I'm not saying that they can't think whatever they damn well please, but the simply do not have the right to impose their opiniions on another's body. When they cross that line, they've lost all right to hear only gentle words of toleration.

edited for grammar

[REP]

69. The Irony, As They Say, Is Priceless

Argumentum ad hominem to show your disapproval of my disapproval? Amusing!

[Zomby Woof]

7. all of the above

Great rant, btw. As George Carlin said, "Have you noticed most people who are against abortion you wouldn't want to fuck in the first place?"

[corporatewhore]

24. sign at womens march: men who dont respect my right to choice can fuck

themselves

[corporatewhore]

43. oops grammatical error should be right to choose

[Must_B_Free]

8. Other: Hope

I think that the argument on the Anti-Choice side is that life is irreverent that we hope that all life can be honored, not ended for the sake of convenience.

On the other hand, practicality is a reality and sometime death is a tough choice that needs to be chosen. I just think though, that when I see someone ending life out of convenience because they are an irresponsible person, it is wrong.

This is perhaps the ONLY issue where I have changed my thinking from the traditional progressive line, probably due to Rastafarian influences, which put life above all else.

[bigbillhaywood]

10. Other.

Their leaders on the Protestant front are definitely fascists. Their leaders on the Catholic front are religious dogmatists. I think the rank-and-file probably span a wide range, from straight-up fascists, to people who simply base their beilefs on the idea that life begins at conception, to well-meaning religious morons who are just trying to be good "Catholics" or "Christians".

[SarahB]

11. Unable to see the whole picture

Life is not necessarily black or white, but many shades of gray and certain gray areas are subject to interpretation based on individual circumstances and beliefs. For the most part though, every child in the world deserves to come into it fully loved and wanted.

[Codeblue]

14. Buddhists

are against abortion. They are extremely loving people and value life above all else.

They do not wish to control other people's lives. They just want to live their own lives for the most part.

Not all of the pro-life people are terrible people. Not all of the pro-choice people are outstanding people. In fact, by many of the posts I've seen here, a lot of pro-choice people are really hateful.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, if you HATE pro-lifers, then you are just as bad or even worse than they are. Hate is a terrible thing.

Hell, I don't even hate Bush...or Asscroft really.

[dawn]

16. I'm Buddhist and pro-choice.

It's not up to me to tell others what to do with their bodies. Pro-choice doesn't equal pro-abortion. (I'm sure there are some Catholics who feel the same way...oh yeah, John Kerry.)

Many Buddhists would disagree with my views, but I'm OK with that. :)

The main thing that irks me about the anti-abortion movement is the judgemental attitude of many pro-lifers toward the women who have the abortions. It makes me sad, and sometimes angry. (not a good emotion to have..)

I do think that some pro-choicers can seem hateful toward pro-life people, and it is because they feel the pro-life people are hypocrites. Many pro-lifers could care less about the welfare of babies and young children...it seems that they are more concerned with judging women who have had sex.

Maybe if there was more of a social safety net available to poor women who are facing unwanted pregnancies, and more education about contraception and the consequences of sex, less abortions would occur.

(edited for spelling)

[corporatewhore]

17. then they should not have abortions

i am sorry but those who try to control my own body on the federal level are fascists do i try to get federal laws banning pregnancy? its all about control.this just another extension of patriarchical society that trys to deem a woman unfit to control her own life. I dont respect anti choicers as much as i respect the KKK
on edit- i respect "pro lifers" who respect my right to choose

[Codeblue]

75. Hey

I dont like the concept of anti-choice either. I dont believe in God myself but I would argue to the anti-choicers (I distinguish between anti-choicers and pro-lifers) that God gave us free will did he not?

He gave us the ability to choose what we do with our lives and how we live our lives. If someone wants to be a murderer, that's their choice. Not a particularly good one, but still a choice, and that murderer had the freedom to choose to kill someone.

I personally do not think abortion is murder as I don't think a fetus is a human being quite yet. Late-term abortion I don't like, but as I said, it's all about free-will.

So the the anti-choicers who think abortion is murder and all should realize that women have the free will to "murder" an unborn fetus.

I didn't say the Buddhists are anti-choice. The general view among Buddhists is that they abhor abortion, but I think they would be pro-choice nonetheless.

[ComerPerro]

15. All I have to say about anti-choice people is:

You ever notice that no "pro-life" rally is ever complete without several prominent speakers who have had at least two abortions each?

[dawn]

19. I do think some women regret their abortions.

But I think the pro-life movement exploits these people shamelessly.

I think many more women who do regret it, forgive themselves or ask for forgiveness (if they believe in a higher power).

[Djinn]

21. probably also

some women who regret having kids

[REP]

23. Which is Worse - Regreting an Abortion or Regretting a Child?

"Abortion regret" is largely a fiction invented by antiabortnoids. Had an abortion and don't regret it? Ah, then, you're in denial according to them.

Regret over abortion is more likely to occur in women who were pressured into abortion - in other words, women who were not allowed to make their own choice.

Most women, however, have no regrets at all about their abortions. Even the Reagan-commissioned Koop Report admitted that most women have no regret, while women who abandoned their infants to strangers through adoption were very likely to feel intense regret.

[Love Bug]

39. I agree with you REP

I think regret also happens when the women who have had an abortion are told over and over again by patriarchal religion that they should feel guilty for having had one. Anti-choice groups constantly expose them to rhetoric where abortion = murder and horrible pictures of mangled fetuses. They get a big, heaping pile of guilt dumped on them, so it's not hard to see where they might regret having an abortion after all of that, especially considering how highly emotional that kind of decision is to make.

Then these regretful women get exploited by being held up as an example of "See what happens to you when the abortionists exploit you."!

[Djinn]

64. agree

I think when people speak about "regret" they are maybe using the word word/emotion.

Regret that the situation came up I think probably describes the feeling better than regret having the abortion, either way it's a damn sight better than regretting having a kid who has to live with resentment (whether overt or not) their whole life.

End of story for me is - it's your body (or mine should the case arise) and no government, religion or individual should legislate it's use - for me that applies to what gender the person you choose to sleep with is, which substances you put into it and your reproductive rights.

[outinforce]

25. Anti-Choicer? What is THAT?

Let's please define our terms here, if you don't mind?

Is an "anti-choicer" someone who does not support Roe v. Wade?

If so, then I think you might have a real problem with the options you have presented in your poll.

As you know, Roe v. Wade does not grant a completely unfettered right to an abortion at all stages of pregnancy.

Roe v. Wade allows states to pass laws which limit the conditions under which a woman may have an abortion during the final trimester.

So, it would be perfectly legal under Roe v. Wade for a state to pass a law saying that it is illegal for a perfectly healthy woman, whose health or life is not in jeopardy, to abort a perfectly healthy fetus during the final three months of pregancy.

Is that what you mean by "anti-choice"? Someone who feels that a perfectly healthy woman, who has no risk to her helath or to her life, should not be able to abort a perfectly healthy fetus during the eighth and ninth months of pregnancy?

I would guess so -- because those who feel that such an abortion should be illegal are, I think, denying complete and totla autonomy to women.

I would submit that if that is indeed how you wish to define "anti-choicers", then you will find a large number of the American population that you will somehow have to fit into one of your options for your poll.

[Runcible Spoon]

50. Christ, outinforce!

Don't you have ANYTHING better to do with your life than stalk abortion threads, spewing the same old bullshit over and over again? Isn't it tiring typing your hackneyed arguments in time and time again? Or perhaps you have a helper monkey to cut and paste for you???

[outinforce]

54. Thanks For Your Response, FarceOfNature

I am always so gratified whenever someone takes the time to read something I have posted, and then takes the time to write a reply.

So thank you for reading my post and for taking the time to write a reply.

In answer to your questions:

1. "Don't you have ANYTHING better to do with your life than stalk abortion threads"? Yes, Yes I do have some things that I feel are better uses of my time than perusing (I don't understand why you would choose the word "stalk", but perhaps you might want to explain it to me -- if you have the time, that is) abortion threads. I am actively involved in the life of my community, among other things.

2. "Don't you have ANYTHING better to do with your life than ...(to) spew the same old bullshit over and over again?" I wasn't really aware that I was "spewing" anything. I confess that I do have a tendency to ask what some people no doubt consider to be uncomfortable questions, but I don't consider that to be in anyway "spewing" bullshit, or any other kind of shit for that matter. I think that if you really want to level a charge that someone is spewing bullshit, you might want to read some other threads around here.

3. "Isn't it tiring typing your hackneyed arguments in time and time again?" Not really. In fact, I find most of the back-and-forth that I engage in here on DU with people whose viewpoints differ in one way or another with my own to be quite invigorating. As a result of several threads, I have modified my own position or have a greater sensitivity to the reaons people have for their positions. I find that, for myself, this is much more preferable than simply remaining, as some folks seem to do, convinced that mine is the only possible position a person could have and dismissing all others as narrow-minded demons.

4. "Or perhaps you have a helper monkey to cut and paste for you???" Nope. I do it all myself. I do my own thinking, too.

I do trust, FarceOfNature, that this post adequately addresses your concerns. Feel free to contact me if you have any other issues you'd care to raise (again, if you have the time to do so), and I will, depending upon my own schedule, make every reasonable effort to respond.

Have a Wonderful Day!

[Runcible Spoon]

59. Sorry to single you out, BUT

I see you on every abortion thread. And my biggest issue with you is that you NEVER EVER clearly define your position. Which is your right. However, being a biting little horsefly with "questions" doesn't win anyone to your "position" (whatever that may be). So I guess I am just exasperated: WHY the continued presence? If you do care so passionately about this, why not clearly define your position and argue with the hope of changing people's opinions? Unless, as I anticipate what your response may be, your main goal is to get people to think. Which is, again, your right. It is also my right to be annoyed with your special brand of discourse. So enjoy irritating people, although "invigorating" yourself at the expense of angering many people is, methinks, a selfish and insensitive strategy. And may you, too, Have a Wonderful Day.

[outinforce]

61. Wish I Had One

Sorry that my posts irritate you so much.

I take from your post that one of the thigs you find most annoying about me -- or rather about my posts -- is that I never ever clearly define my own position.

In order to present a clearly defined position, I would have to have, I think, a position that was both clear and well-defined.

The problem is that I do not have such a position with regard to abortion.

Abortion is, to my way of thinking, a much, much too complicated issue for me to have a clearly defined position on.

There is one thing that I think I am pretty clear on, and it is this -- abortion is an issue that will simply not go away. It has been more than 31 years since the Supreme Court ruled in Roe v. Wade -- 31 years!! -- and still people are talking about this issue.

And that gives rise to another thing that I think I am pretty clear on -- since the issue of abortion will not go away, it will remain as a festering sore on our body politic unless and until people on all sides (notice I said ALL sides -- not "both" sides) are both willing and able to listen to the positions of other people, and to make an honest effort to hear and understand positions that are not their own.

And there is one more thing that I think I can say with some clarity -- resolving the abortion issue -- so that we are not still engaged in passionate discussion about abortion 31 years from now -- will involve coming to as much consensus as we can on the various aspects to this most thorny of issues.

That is my position -- as clear as I can make it.

It is why to many pro-lifers, I am a complete sell-out.

It is also why to many ardant pro-choicers, I am an irritaitng, biting little horsefly.

It is also why I ask so many questions. I really have no "strategy", as your posts suggests I do.

[LeahMira]

27. How about "all of the above" ...

... and maybe throw in "liars" also.

This past Sunday I saw a sign: Abortion causes breast cancer. I laughed right at the woman carrying it!

Then, of course, there were the inevitable photos. Who the heck do they think is permitted to take these ridiculous photos? As if a hospital or clinic is going to invite people in!

Don't these anti-choice folks have any brains in their heads at all? (Silly question... of course they don't!)

[Scairp]

65. I was gonna say that

The abortion/breast cancer link has been debunked over and over again. It was just another attempt to try and frighten women. They think we are stupid.

[Steely_Dan]

29. You Know What's Amazing

...The hypocrisy!

Lately, I have been hearing from the Right (especially the Religious Right) that abortion is wrong and should be outlawed due to the "sanctity of life."

You know, I could probably deal with anti-choice people on other grounds. But don't give me this "sanctity of life" crap. These very same people would be the first to flip the switch on an electric chair. Sanctity of life, my ass.

-P

[smirkymonkey]

49. and don't forget the "Pro-Life" War supporters!

the hypocrisy is astounding! :grr:

[MercutioATC]

30. Misguided religious zealouts?

[outinforce]

31. What About

"Anti-choicers" who are not at all religious?

[MercutioATC]

33. I know they exist, but I don't see many...

All of the "pro-lifers" I know believe that way because of their religious convictions.

[outinforce]

36. Might I Suggest

that you get out more.

Suggesting that all pro-lifers as that way because of religious convictions is about as valid as saying that all pro-choice folks are that way because they have no religious convicitons -- a common, but nonetheless invalid things often said by pro-life folks.

[MercutioATC]

62. Seems we have some general, cross-thread disagreements...

I REALIZE that not all pro-lifers hold those beliefs for religious reasons, but I believe that religion is the basis in the vast majority of cases.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mandate My Ass]

53. Am I hearing you correctly?

:evilgrin:

[Vladimir]

32. Depends on the person in question

too many different motives and ways of arguing both sides of the issue. The only thing uniting anti-choice people is, IMO, that they are wrong.

[Selwynn]

34. Grow up.

First of all, there are many people who are not "pro-choice" right here ar DU. There are many democrats who are not "pro-choice" and there a plenty of responsible, intelligent people who feel like the debate over abortion is one of the most complicated and difficult debates ever. Not everyone who is "pro-life" is an evil malicious nazi cow. My parents certainly aren't. There position on life is pretty solid, they are agaist the termination of pregancy and against the death penalty. The believe the life, from the moment that development process is initiated to the time a human being takes his or her last breath, is sacred and to be protected.

Now, I will not respond to arguments bashing their position. And their position is not my position. But its childish and disagraceful to act as though anyone who thinks differently than you on this issue is worthy of being deamonized. Somepeople believe abortion is so wrong that it's wrongness is more important than your "rights." I don't agree, but I also know better than to think every single preson who is not "pro-choice" is some kind of evil bastard.

[outinforce]

38. VERY VERY VERY Well Said.

Tolerance for a diversity of deeply-held positions is, to my way of thinking, the hallmark of a Liberal.

Hateful demonization of someone who disagrees is hardly a Liberal position, in my view.

[corporatewhore]

44. i dont have tolerance for misogynists racists or homophobes

[Selwynn]

46. And my parents are none of those things, my friend is none of those things

The DU'ers who are not "pro-choice" are not those things. The only thing they are guilty of is disagreeing with you.

There are certainly hateful, evil, destructive mean spirited people who are pro-life, but clearly as this demonstrates, there are the same kinds of people who are pro-choice as well.

The worst thing about attitudes like this, is the hypocrisy. We talk a lot about freedom and rights, but then we call EVERYONE who disagrees with us, whatever their reasons racists, or misogynists or homophones - for no other reason that we just hate people who have different feelings than we do.

There are people out there on the right that are clearly hateful and do disgusting things. But what's more offensive than their hatred and idiocy is when it comes from our own ranks, when we act exactly like them - only its ok we say, because the difference is we're "right" so its ok if we ignorantly act like all people who don't share our point of view are evil and stupid. Sounds a lot like the philosophy of the Bush Administration to me, and its just wrong.

There are many people out there who seriously struggle with the moral and philosophical questions about subjects like abortion. And they're not all bad. I love the idea of someone who says, "you know, I'm not certain how I feel about abortion, I worry about our responsibility to the unborn and how to balance that with the rights of women," and rather than encouraging dialog, really talking about the challenging issues, and what's more listening honestly to someone else's uncertainty and questions, we just call them fucking Nazis, misogynists, evil, stupid, moronic, and every other ridiculous hate-filled name on this thread.

Here's a fact: the philosophical, moral and political issues surrounding the subject of abortion are some of the most complicated and divisive issues out there - reasonable people CAN AND DO DISAGREE. Certainly there are extremist crazies out there on the pro-life side, but as this thread attests, there are also crazies out there on the pro-choice side, exhibiting the EXACT SAME HATRED as anyone else.

You talk about having no tolerance. You know what I have no tolerance for, I have no tolerance anymore for people who take the name of the Democratic party and treat it as a HATE GROUP, for their HATE SPEECH. I have no tolerance for that.

When neo-conservatives say and do hateful things on the subject of abortion, we should call them on it, and yes, even react to it forcefully. But the moment we start falsely reducing EVERYONE who sees it differently that we do to all the labels giving in this thread (as though if you disagree with us, then you are instantaneously all of these things) we have ceased to be a party concerned with freedom and democracy, civil liberties and rights, community and common welfare - we have become a hate group no different than all the other hate groups out there. Just because the targets of our hate isn't "them n*****s" doesn't mean the hate is any different. Some people hate "queers" - instead we hate southern Americans. Some people hate "pink liberals" instead we hate "neo conservatives." Some people hate all woman, instead we just hate woman who have a different point of view than the ones we deem acceptable. For someone like my friend, who does not support abortion laws, we don't even attempt to listen, think or consider what factors might influence her point of view before hate-filled bashing and mindless insult spewing beings.

I'm tired of those in the party who want to make the party take its place along side other hate-groups and justifying its hate speech and hateful actions in the name of being "right." And I will resist you with my last breath.

[corporatewhore]

42. excuse me for not addressing fascism/sexism in a polite manner

goddamn this is war on my own body!!! i dont care if they are pro life as long as they are prochoice !!If they dont like abortion then they should not have one. nobody expects me to be polite when confronting racists who would want to legislate their racist bullshit into law.Same difference is it not to be polite to those who would want to legislate anti woman bullshit into law.It is very distubing that it is perfectly acceptable for the state to be able to control my uterus!! its not like the pro choicers are going around trying to make the stateforce abortions like the anti choicers who try to use the state to force pregnancy

[Selwynn]

48. If you believe abortion is murder, you have every right to try and stop it

It's not that complicated of an argument. Some people believe that a fetus has rights, including the right to life. That right to life supersedes your right to end that life - some people seen no difference between that and an acknowledgment that you don't have the right to walk across the street and end someone else's life. So some people believe that abortion is similar in seriousness to murder.

That's not my position, and I'm sure you don't agree. But for people who honestly feel that conviction, I couldn't expect them to do anything else other than fight for the protection of fetuses that the believe deserve individual rights and protections similar to that of individual people.

There are a lot of good people out there who are not pro-choice. They're intentions are pure, I just believe they are misguided about the kinds of rights a fetus has and how those relates to the rights of the mother.

And I once again point out, there are more than a few pro-choice DUers here, long time members, great democratic folk. Are you applying all your hate speech to them as well? Or are you willing to acknowledge that many people feel many different ways about this issue, and they're not all evil bastards if they disagree with you.

[Mandate My Ass]

37. the gestational gestapo

after they're born...fuck em, on to the next uterus.

[liarliartieonfire]

41. Anti-Choicers are

terrorists to our constitutional rights.

[noonwitch]

45. Some are good, decent people who think they are doing the right thing

I don't agree with them, but demonizing people who think that abortion is killing a baby doesn't help. Most of them have religious reasons for doing so, and some adopt babies and help poor pregnant women out financially and in other ways.

I hope that abortion always remains legal, but I would like to see less abortions and less unwanted pregnancies. I think that (pro-life) programs to assist women whose only reasons for considering abortion are financial ones are a good thing, as long as the agency is up front about their views and don't use stealth tactics to get women in the door. Some of these programs involve volunteers who work with the woman, assistance obtaining medical care and necessities like food, housing,clothing, baby goods. I have a lot more respect for anti-abortion people who put their time and money into helping women than I do for the ones who stand outside abortion clinics with ugly signs.

[mmonk]

47. Don't make the mistake right wingers do

of lumping people together to marginalize them. Weakens the argument.

[outinforce]

55. Exactly!

Thanks for saying this, mmonk.

[apnu]

57. Other: All of the above! n/t

[Steely_Dan]

63. A Button I Saw

I think that the greatest button I saw on the subject of abortion said:

"Against abortion?" "Don't have one."

-P

[gpandas]

66. meddlers n/t

[SharonAnn]

70. Men! They can be described as men! With a male agenda!

Even the women who are anti-choice are just supporting men.

[Cleita]

73. I chose freedom haters.

I dunno why. It appealed to me most at the time.

[opihimoimoi]

74. Those Fundies are into GUILT... they like to pass it out like its candy

Damn those guys.