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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-28-04 02:42 PM
Original message
Help me debunk this Anti-Kerry propaganda
I recently go this email from a friend and i must say its the most contrived pack of lies Ive seen yet. Help me debunk this crap please. Use references when possible.




Former US Navy Lt. Kerry has the veteran vote
after he answers these questions:
LIKE MOST Vietnam War Veterans and Cold War Veterans, I am willing to forgive and forget. In fact, since former LCDR John McCain has forgiven the Vietnamese commies, I surely have no right to carry around anger about the Vietnam War and how it ended. But as you keep bringing it up in every speech you make "I am a Vietnam War Veteran" and "I won the Silver Star" I must ask a few questions. As we are both US Navy Vietnam War veterans and you were a commissioned officer and I was a petty officer I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, so please answer the following and I will quietly and respectfully listen to your answers;


Question number 1--Will you like President Bush release your service and medical records? Or do you want to hide the fact that you were only scratched and got 3 purple hearts to cut your combat zone tour to only 4 months? If you don't want to answer the question, simply lift up your shirt sleeve and show us a scar or two. What? No scars at all but 3 Purple Hearts permitted you and you demanded that your tour of duty be cut short by 2/3rds? Regulations require that to be awarded the Purple Heart you must be treated by a Medical Officer but that your "wounds" were so slight (if any) that you never saw a Medical Officer. One of your shipmates says that a wound was "self inflicted." You say in every speech that you are a "Vietnam War Veteran" and that President Bush only served in the National Guard and imply that the President is a draft dodger. But isn't it true that you are a FAILED draft dodger, having asked your draft board for a one year deferment so you could visit Paris and when they refused you, you joined the Navy. And while in the Navy didn't you take swift boat duty because you thought you would see little or no action. However, AFTER you were assigned, Admiral Zumwalt put those units into more direct combat roles.


Question number 2--Did you receive a Silver Star for chasing and killing a Vietnamese who was already wounded (or already killed) by another swift boat crewman? Did you get the Silver Star based on the Action Report that you wrote and the "action" that you alone witnessed? If you get a Silver Star for killing an enemy, wouldn't every soldier, sailor and marine who killed an enemy soldier also be entitled to wear a Silver Star? If you killed a wounded and helpless Vietnamese isn't that murder and not combat? Isn't what you did-the same act as what Lt. Calley committed- and he faced a court martial and was convicted? Your gunner's mate says that you were a coward and ran from the enemy. Another says that you've abandoned your shipmates until you needed them to dress up your campaign 35 years after the war.



Didn't you throw your Silver Star back at the US Government in protest for our fight against worldwide communism. You've said that those were your medals...then you said they were someone else's medals...then you said that you threw your RIBBONS but NOT your medals and now we see your self awarded "Silver Star" proudly on display in your office. Is the Silver Star on display one that you bought at the gedunk (ship's store) or did you lie to us about throwing your medals away? Isn't your self awarded Silver Star for putting a bullet into a fleeing wounded (or already dead) enemy and your three Purple Hearts for self admitted scratches that took you out of action for ONE DAY an insult to every veteran?


Question number 3--While a US Navy commissioned officer did you commit a court-martial offense by repeatedly disobeying orders and putting your unarmoured swift boat and its crew in danger by beaching it in combat, killing unarmed civilians and children and/or killing wounded and helpless enemy combatants? What did Admiral Zumwalt mean when he said "I don't know if I should give Lt. Kerry a medal or a court martial for all the civilians he's killed. I want to put a straight jacket on Lt. Kerry." If you were Commander in Chief but had no "boss" would you also act out of control but have no one to put you in a "straight jacket?"


Question number 4--After your active duty in the Navy did you fulfill your Navy Reserve obligations or ignore them and devote all your time to anti American demonstrations which emboldened our enemy to eventually win the war? Because you encouraged our enemy when American fighting men were still in the field, can you give us a number of how many American soldiers, sailors and Marines you are responsible for killing? Why does LTC Oliver North say, "John Kerry has blood of American soldiers on his hands."


Question number 5 When you returned from Vietnam, you labeled all other Vietnam Veterans war criminals. You made these claims under oath. Were you lying then, or are you lying now? You attended your first pro Viet Cong rally and marched under the communist flag on October 15, 1969 when you were still on active duty in the US Navy. Would you call that treason? Were you wearing your US Navy dogtags, carrying a US Navy ID card and still obligated by the oath you took to "support and defend the United States" as you encouraged our enemy to continue to kill our soldiers, marines and sailors on the battle fields of southeast Asia?


Question number 6 You associated yourself with Hanoi Jane Fonda, an avowed Communist who supported North Vietnam. Hanoi Jane stated that our prisoners were LYING when they claimed to have been tortured by the Vietnamese. Do you believe former LCDR John MCCain to be a liar?


Question number 7 Have you condemned Jane Fonda and asked her not to support your campaign? In his 1985 memoir about the war, Gen. Vo Nguyen Giap wrote that "if it weren't for organizations like Kerry's Vietnam Veterans Against the War, Hanoi would have surrendered to the U.S." The Department of Justice was set to charge Jane Fonda with treason, but the President stopped that action so the country could heal after our Vietnamese allies were slaughtered. Was the Justice Department set to charge you with treason as well? What did Hanoi Jane mean when she called you "a hero?" Did she mean you were an American hero for killing Vietnamese civilians? Or, did she mean that you are a Viet Cong or Communist Vietnam "hero" for helping them win the war. Picture: Kerry sitting behind "Hanoi" Jane Fonda at antiwar rally.

Question number 8 You wrote a book entitled The New Soldier where the cover MOCKS the Iwo Jima memorial with scruffy men "raising" an upside-down United States flag.
7,000 Marines DIED at Iwo Jima including three from the famous photo you Mock. Do you care to apologize to the 7,000 families of those Marines? During the Vietnam War why did you encourage American soldiers and sailors to desert in your book THE NEW SOLDIER and in your speeches. As our Commander in Chief would desertion during wartime be "ok" with you?


Question number 9 You have stated that going into the National Guard was like running off to Canada. Tens of thousands of Guardsmen served in Vietnam, several thousand gave their lives...do you care to apologize? Didn't you try to avoid Vietnam service by asking for a one year vacation from the draft board so you could go to Paris in the hopes the war would be over by the time you returned to your county at war? Lt. Bush flew a F102. Many of the men who flew F102s were killed in them. Would you care to explain how risking your life to fly a fighter plane is cowardly--explain this to the widows and their children? The F102 was tasked with meeting and shooting down Soviet bombers coming to the USA by flying over Canada to destroy US cities and military installations. Surely as Lt. Bush would shoot them they would be trying to shoot and kill Lt. Bush. Please explain the cowardice in Lt. Bush's military service? In your mind is engaging the enemy "over Canada" the same as "fleeing to Canada?" Also, wasn't Lt. Bush risking his life in the early 1970's when you were at the very same time "protesting" the war, encouraging our enemies and calling us sailors, soldiers and veterans "war criminals?"


Question number 10 You have stated you would turn the decision on deployment of US troops over to the United Nations and OPPOSED the death penalty even for terrorists who murder Americans. How would you win the war on terrorism given your stated positions? You state that you voted for the war but now state that you were only voting for the "process" of the UN putting pressure on Iraq. Please show us in the vote the word "process." Also explain why 99 other US Senators could not find the word "process" in the bill they voted on. Finally, please explain how we are to believe anything you say, or ever said, and how you are a member of our "band of brothers" after you called us all war criminals and after you gave aid and comfort to our enemy while still in the US Navy and betrayed all soldiers, sailors and Marines who served their country honorably? Picture: Author, USS Yorktown, USS Kearsarge
at Yankee Station off coast of North Vietnam 1968, 1969

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Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-28-04 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
1. I started to read it and then stopped
he's a lost cause. an obvious zealot. most of the shit he's asking has already been answered in full detail by kerry. heaven forbid he take a short trip to kerry's website for the answer.
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-28-04 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
2. better to ignore it
Getting you to take it seriously enough to debunk would probably be considered a success to this person.

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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-28-04 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
3. Somebody needs to tell Karl Rove to shut up
This CLEARLY comes right off his desk. It reads like it's written to start up the Cold War again! OK, here's a debunking-how come, following right after the repigs come up with this criticizing JK for being in Viet Nam (unlike Bush, who is clearly a complete coward and traitor) this laundry list gets trotted out? They come up with "there's questions about Kerry's record", then following that there's this huge laundry list. This is clearly planned.
These people are pigs. For BushCo to criticize Kerry is intolerable. He may not be Iron Man Kerry, but he's certainly not Girly-man Bush.
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sadiesworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-28-04 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
4. Most of this crap can be debunked by a visit to Kerry's website.
His service and medical records are available there.

The Kerry/Fonda pic was determined to have been photo-shopped some time ago.

Kerry marked the box saying he wanted to go to Viet Nam, the monkey marked the one saying he did not.

I would insist that this friend prove some of these assertions, before I bent over backwards to disprove them.
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ET Awful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-28-04 03:00 PM
Response to Original message
5. First glaring problem . . . .
Bush couldn't very well have been "risking his life" flying F-102's when he was grounded for refusing to take his physical which required a drug test.
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RobertSeattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-28-04 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
6. Go to the Kerry's dBunker first...
Edited on Wed Apr-28-04 03:04 PM by RobertSeattle
http://blog.johnkerry.com/dbunker/

Why does CHICKENHAWK CHENEY release his FULL medical records?
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Misunderestimator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-28-04 03:03 PM
Response to Original message
7. I couldn't get through half of that spew.... n/t
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ieoeja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-28-04 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
8. Reply to Number 1

Since each question was a novella in its own right. I'll just reply to the first multiple part question:

Q1. Will you like President Bush release your service and medical records?

A1. He did.


Q2. Or do you want to hide the fact that you were only scratched and got 3 purple hearts to cut your combat zone tour to only 4 months? If you don't want to answer the question, simply lift up your shirt sleeve and show us a scar or two. What? No scars at all but 3 Purple Hearts permitted you and you demanded that your tour of duty be cut short by 2/3rds? Regulations require that to be awarded the Purple Heart you must be treated by a Medical Officer but that your "wounds" were so slight (if any) that you never saw a Medical Officer.

A2. Look at the records. He DID see a Medical Officer for all three wounds. And Kerry himself freely admits that he, like 99% of the other Americans in 'Nam, wanted out after discovering the reality of the situation for himself.


Q3. One of your shipmates says that a wound was "self inflicted."

A3. That is an outright lie. I am not saying that Kerry's shipmate lied for no shipmate ever said such a thing. I am calling you a god-damned lying son-of-a-bitch for putting making up shit like this about his shipmates who put their lives on the line in Vietnam, you worthless piece of shit.


Q4. You say in every speech that you are a "Vietnam War Veteran" and that President Bush only served in the National Guard and imply that the President is a draft dodger.

A4. No, he doesn't. In fact, Kerry rarely brings it up. In fact, it is hardly mentioned by any Democrat except in response to an attack on Kerry's service record.


Q5. But isn't it true that you are a FAILED draft dodger, having asked your draft board for a one year deferment so you could visit Paris and when they refused you, you joined the Navy.

A5. First, let's start with the fact that his father was ... career military. Kerry planned to join from the start.


Q6. And while in the Navy didn't you take swift boat duty because you thought you would see little or no action. However, AFTER you were assigned, Admiral Zumwalt put those units into more direct combat roles.

A6. Again, look at the record. If Kerry wanted to see "little or no action" why volunteer for service in 'Nam? And swift boats were in use in the Mekong Delta throughout the war. Kerry did get caught up in a short-lived mission using the swift boats more aggressively. But swift boat duty was one of the few navy duties that guaranteed you action even before and after that particular mission.
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ieoeja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-28-04 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Reply to Number 2

Q2a. Did you receive a Silver Star for chasing and killing a Vietnamese who was already wounded (or already killed) by another swift boat crewman?

A2a. Yes.


Q2b. Did you get the Silver Star based on the Action Report that you wrote and the "action" that you alone witnessed?

A2b. No. It was witnessed by many others.


Q2c. If you get a Silver Star for killing an enemy, wouldn't every soldier, sailor and marine who killed an enemy soldier also be entitled to wear a Silver Star?

A2c. No. he got his because, after triggering an ambush and seeing one of the Vietnamese attempting to bring a grenade launcher to bear, instead of fleeing it in my swift boat (and they're called "swift" for a reason), he charged the enemies position causing the enemy to take flight. Fearing the enemy would fire at Kerry's crew upon reaching better cover, Kerry pursued on foot taking a chance that (1) Kerry would get the enemy before the enemy got Kerry and (2) there were no other enemy about.


Q2d. If you killed a wounded and helpless Vietnamese isn't that murder and not combat?

A2d. Probably. But since when does a rocket launcher qualify as helpless?


Q2e. Isn't what you did-the same act as what Lt. Calley committed- and he faced a court martial and was convicted?

A2e. See A2d.


Q2f. Your gunner's mate says that you were a coward and ran from the enemy. Another says that you've abandoned your shipmates until you needed them to dress up your campaign 35 years after the war.

A2f. That is an outright lie. I am not saying that Kerry's shipmates lied for no shipmates ever said such things. I am calling you a god-damned lying son-of-a-bitch for making up shit like this about his shipmates who put their lives on the line in Vietnam, you worthless piece of shit.


Q2g. Didn't you throw your Silver Star back at the US Government in protest for our fight against worldwide communism.

A2g. No. He proudly displays his Silver (and Bronze) Stars in his Senate office.


Q2h. You've said that those were your medals...then you said they were someone else's medals...then you said that you threw your RIBBONS but NOT your medals and now we see your self awarded "Silver Star" proudly on display in your office.

A2h. No, he never said that. If the people who told you that he said those things cannot provide a date and exact quote, maybe you should ask yourself why.


Q2i. Is the Silver Star on display one that you bought at the gedunk (ship's store) or did you lie to us about throwing your medals away?

A2i. Neither. And still waiting on an exact quote by Kerry, not by someone claiming that he has a friend who remembers Kerry saying something.


Q2j. Isn't your self awarded Silver Star for putting a bullet into a fleeing wounded (or already dead) enemy and your three Purple Hearts for self admitted scratches that took you out of action for ONE DAY an insult to every veteran?

A2j. I wouldn't think so. Why don't you ask the Green Beret he rescued while rushing INTO enemy fire -- not an armed enemy who MAY fire like in the Silver Star incident, but enemy who were actively shooting at him -- and for which he received the Bronzie Star you so conveniently fail to mention. And I know a lot of veterans who laugh about some of the ways in which they received purple hearts. Your Silver Star lies have been discussed above.
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Killarney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-28-04 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. #3
he only beached the boat once and that's when he got the silver star. The guy did say I don't know whether you give you the ss or court martial you but he was half joking and obviously wrote him up for the sstar. this is all chronicled in the new john kerry book by the Boston Globe reporters.
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ieoeja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-28-04 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. Reply to Number 3

Q3a. While a US Navy commissioned officer did you commit a court-martial offense by repeatedly disobeying orders and putting your unarmoured swift boat and its crew in danger by beaching it in combat

A3a. Only did this once and only because he didn't think we could get away from the enemy armed with a rocket launcher. Got the Silver Star for doing so.


Q3b. killing unarmed civilians and children and/or killing wounded and helpless enemy combatants?

A3b. No. Do you realize that you have gone from arguing that Kerry did too little in combat to Kerry did too much?


Q3c. What did Admiral Zumwalt mean when he said "I don't know if I should give Lt. Kerry a medal or a court martial for all the civilians he's killed. I want to put a straight jacket on Lt. Kerry." If you were Commander in Chief but had no "boss" would you also act out of control but have no one to put you in a "straight jacket?"

A3c. What did General Wesmoreland mean when he said, "I don't know if Lt Kerry should be President of the United States, or just put in command of this war"? There is no correct answer to this, or to the question you asked, since neither gentleman made the quoted statement.
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Killarney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-28-04 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
11. good source of info here:
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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
13. thanks so much
Thank you all for your help.
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hexola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 11:05 AM
Response to Original message
14. Just hope he sent a copy to all his friends...
It does more to trumpet Kerry's record than harm it...

Kerry would have to write a freakin' BOOK to answer all the questions put forth above...

Most folks will just roll thier eyes at this stuff...

My latest point on the purple hearts is:

If one guy gets his legs blown off = He gets a purple heart.

If another guy gets shot but survives and recovers fully = He gets a purple heart.

They both get purple hearts - but one has clearly made a greater sacrafice. Is the guy who lost his legs getting screwed? After all - he lost his legs...that other guy was only shot and lives a normal life...why does he derserve Purple Heart?

The answer is to get folks to realize that a Purple Heart is not the greatest decoration that a soldier can get. You would be eligible for any battlefield injury - no matter the severity...The anti-Kerry crowd wants people to think that the purple heart was only given to guys who were really seriously wounded.

I suspect Kerry was probably ready to get the hell out of Nam - who could blame him if he stretched it to get the 3rd medal...(not saying he did...)I think that last piece of shrapnel might have come too close...like: "Yeah -its just a "scratch" - but 2 inches to the left and I'm dead...maybe I should get the hell out of here...3 and out - fine by me"

One statement I really dont get is:

What? No scars at all but 3 Purple Hearts permitted you and you demanded that your tour of duty be cut short by 2/3rds?

I dont understand the logic here...
It seems Kerry would be nearing the end of his 4 years by then...did the actual "tour" override the four year obligation...?
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