A Challenge to Liberal Christians

[burythehatchet]

I just finished watching Frontline. I can honestly say that my feelings about George Bush have now transcended hatred. I now fear him.

Every fear I have seems to be crystallized in reality. We have a fanatic running our lives. We are no better than Iran under the Ayatollahs.

What are you, people who call yourselves Christians, going to do to take back your religion. I love all religions. What I saw tonight has nothing to do with Christianity. It is a warped and twisted view of the world. It is a view that if empowered to a greater extent will lead us to certain destruction.

What will you do to fight this hijacking of your religion?

[Taverner]

1. It gets worse

The United Methodist Church (of which I belong) has long been known for it's progressive, liberal stance. It was one of the first churches to ordain homosexuals, as well as marry them.

Now the Evangelicals, satisfied with their hijacking of the Southern Baptists, are setting their eyes on us. They want, in very clear terms, to take the UMC back, and throw us out.

It's sickening.

[ulysses]

3. got links?

I have some friends who are still active in the Methodist church to whom I'd like to send info of that kind.

[yellowcanine]

5. I am not Methodist but based on the ones I know.....

I don't think you have anything to worry about, at least in the Northeast. Northeastern United Methodists kick ass!

[SuffragetteSal]

34. I am a member

and I can tell you right now I don't believe George W Bush is an accurate representation of any member of the UMC.

I also watched the program tonight (the Jesus Factor) and that Bible study he supposedly participated in with all those men present and only men I might add, I have never seen or heard of anything like that in my church. I am positive that was some other form of evangelistic program he was attending.

I thought the program very distrubing. Obviously this man has been primed for many years prior to his nomination for president. Somebody knew what they were doing but they can't fool all of us...

I found the whole program about his 'born again' thing quite nauseating. Interesting...though WE the United Methodists do not use the term 'born again' that is held tightly by the fundamentalists and evangelists and they can have it...

[smiley_glad_hands]

2. We can only fight ideas with better ideas.

But there will always be some who choose to distort The Life of Jesus Christ whether it be for personal gain or just plain old insanity.

[Bertha Venation]

4. I'll asnwer w/ another quite familiar question - a quite familiar question

What would Jesus do?

I'm not being flip. Jesus would do today what he did 2000 years ago. He got hot under the collar in the temple, and he had some great woes in a withering speech against the hypocrites.

And then they killed him.

I think you're right to be scared. Aren't most of us scared of what can be done by the men who've hijacked Islam?

[burythehatchet]

7. The religions born in Jerusalem

Christianity, Islam and Judaism are the only ones that I believe preach the converion of others. WHY?

On edit - I don't want this comment to be misunderstood. It is only the fanatics that want to change the rest of us

[rockymountaindem]

18. No sect of Judaism preaches conversion.

We take converts, but winning converts is not our goal.

[Bertha Venation]

35. I can only answer part of your question.

You write that you believe that only the religions born in Jerusalem preach conversion. I don't know if Judaism & Islam preach evangelism, and historically I wouldn't say that either Judaism or Christianity was born in Jerusalem (unless you're speaking figuratively, which I believe would weaken the point). I don't know about Islam.

The only thing I can answer is why Christianity preaches conversion. It's because of "the great commission," in the last chapter of Matthew's gospel. After being resurrected, Jesus tells his disciples, "go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you."

It's that simple for evangelical Christians: Christ told them to do it, so they must. But of course, it's more than that, and that can be seen in their bumper stickers that say "Jesus (or God) loves you." Evangelicals have the most overdeveloped sense of codependency on the face of the earth. They HAVE to "save" us because hell is just too horrifying to contemplate. If they don't do all they can to convert us, we are going to hell. They can't have that on their consciences -- yet they do. They live for the guilt and they don't even know it.

[Az]

6. Seriously, you cannot leave it to the nonchristians

to challenge the fanaticism that is spewing out of America now. You do not have to evangelyze to refute their claim on your beliefs. You do not have to hide your belief from us raving atheists. You have to stand up and make it known that these hate filled are not the soul claimants to the name Christian.

[Kat45]

8. Unfortunately, the "religious right" is highly organized, and

we liberal Christians are scattered among many, many small congregations in a variety of denominations. This makes it tougher for liberal Christians to organize and get a message out.

[starroute]

13. Is it possible to organize across denominations?

I ask this as a complete outsider with no knowledge of the situation. But is there any reason not to have a cross-denominational organization of liberal Christians, all of them working within their own congregations but also giving one another mutual support and providing a unified voice to refute the fundamentalists?

It seems like it would be a Christian thing to do.

[burythehatchet]

15. Dreams are the seeds of reality

What you are saying is precisely the way to prevail

[KittyWampus]

Have You Checked Out Rabbi Lerner's Website

he has done just that, reach out across demonations.

I believe it's www.Tikkun.org

[bloom]

28. There are some interfaith groups that do what you suggest.

National Council http://www.ncccusa.org/ & the World Council of Churches include various moderate denominations.


This I thought was interesting from the World Congress of Fundamentalists :


"* You should subscribe to the doctrinal statement of the World Congress of Fundamentalists.
* You should also agree with us in that our final authority lies in the Greek and Hebrew originals of the Bible.
* You should believe in ecclesiastical separation and separation from the world. We do not want to be identified with any fellowship that is part of the pseudo-fundamentalist or new evangelical movement. We do not endorse modernism, liberalism, the National Council or the World Council of Churches.
* You should agree with us that the charismatic movement is unscriptural."

"http://fundamentalistforums.com/
http://www.geocities.com/athens/acropolis/3440/webring.html

[noonwitch]

38. Wow, I actually agree with them about the charismatics

I think that the whole speaking in tongues thing is a gross misinterpretation of scripture. Acts 2 is clearly speaking about the apostles being given the ability to speak in other languages, real languages spoken by other people, in order to spread the word of god.

I think charismatics are messing around with something that they don't fully understand. And it's not coming from Jesus or the Holy Spirit, either. It's either a mass delusion (very possible) or some other event. I've attended charismatic services a couple of times, and on both occasions, I found it rather frightening.

[IrateCitizen]

41. Check out the Interfaith Alliance

http://www.interfaithalliance.org/

That might fit the mold of what you're looking for.

[Arianrhod]

32. Why is * not being denounced

from every pulpit in the country?

[H2O Man]

9. Interesting point.

Many religions produce demon seed like bush; however, because of his position, he presents a terrible danger to life on earth. I think that Christians of good conscience should follow the example of the Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. We should be holding marches and prayer-ins. I appreciate the demonstrations of others, and respect those who believe in confrontational signs, and militant chants. But I am hoping that Christians will consider going to Washington, DC, to get down on our knees, and spend several days praying and fasting for peace. This might ignite a spiritual force that will awaken those of our brothers and sisters who are unconscious at this time. If we were joined by Jews, Muslims, and others, we might give sight to the blind, and give hearing to the deaf. I know that we can not cure the disease of hatred with more hatred. We can not reconcile with our sick siblings by violent means, any more than American GI's can curb Iraqi impatience with American impatience. Prayer, meditation, and sacrifice may be our only way out of the madness that is suffocating us today.

[burythehatchet]

10. Beautifully stated n/t

[Arianrhod]

33. That is an excellent idea.

I would join such a group, if possible.

Any thoughts on how to organize such a thing? As a pagan, I'm not sure many Christians would favor the suggestion coming from me, but I'd be willing to help work for it.

[Bertha Venation]

36. It is indeed. I'd show up. And you know what?

Such a demonstration on the National Mall might bring the problem of radical right wing christian fundamentalists into stark relief: don't you just bet they'd be out there demonstrating against us?! They would!

[Arianrhod]

40. Oh, would they ever.

They can't resist any opportunity to reveal their true selves.

;)

[supernova]

43. You bet they would

sad to say.

Because those of us on the religious left don't have the "correct" doctrine. :eyes:

[Quahog]

37. How do we go about organizing this?

I'm serious, I would help in any way I could, and I would definitely be there praying alongside anyone from any denomination who would like to see the teachings of Jesus Christ restored to Christianity.

What do we do?

[supernova]

42. Sign me up!

I'll be there. Anytime, anywhere.

[Kat45]

11. My Bible study class is studying fundamentalism now

Last night we tried to define it. Our minister gave us "homework" for next week's class: come up with ways to get the message of tolerance, diversity, etc. out as being the message that's truly Christian. Use scripture to back up our views. It should be interesting to see what people come up with.

Edited to add: one question our minister brought up -- where are the non- right wing fundamentalist Christian voices today? We couldn't think of a widely known one since Martin Luther King, and we were troubled by that.

[burythehatchet]

12. Now that's the kind of homework that even I could go for

Do us proud notmyprez, do us proud!

[Kat45]

14. I'll do my best. I've already got some ideas. n/t

[H2O Man]

19. The Berrigan Brothers

continued for many, many years after MKL. But they made many, many people uncomfortable. So the media generally ignored them. Rev. Jesse has done well. I pray he secures the release of the hostages. Still, we need to reach a level of maturity where we are not dependant upon a "leader." We can reach our human potential, but not by remaining sheep in need of a shepard. The implication of not growing to the point of where the Goodness of Truth takes root within, is that we want someone else to do things for us. I have an image of sitting in a classroom, and having people asking MKL if he'll do it again for us, because we just didn't "get it" the first time. Decentralized militantly peaceful christianity is needed today, not a "leader." Does that make sense? (PS: Daniel B's poetry is beautiful!)

[burythehatchet]

23. I share your views

We've had plenty of leaders. My personal hero, Gandhi, is an excellent example. I believe it was Nehru who said, after his assasination, that Mahatma offered the world the answer, and the world was not ready. I don't believe the world will EVER be ready. And I believe we are all ready, if that makes makes sense. But as long as there are those among us who claim to have the answer, we will not be able to overcome. It is the tragedy of mankind: The capacity to love, the knowledge to love, but the inability to love.

[PurityOfEssence]

16. Don't mean to be picky, but do you mean "Frontline"?

It's currently 7:19 on the West coast, so Nightline isn't even on yet in the East.

I presume you mean "The Jesus Factor", right?

(Truly, I don't mean to be a snot; I consider this to be VERY important, and I appreciate your thread.)

[burythehatchet]

17. You're right

I was able to edit the correction

Thanks. I'm still pretty upset about what I saw

[Ksec]

20. Organised religion is what you are talking about

I consider myself a spiritual person. I dont go to church nor do I read the bible or pray much but in my mind I live a righteous life .

I hate organised religion because its the worst kind of hypocricy. Using God for political purposes is about as evil as evil gets.

[Only Me]

21. I went to the Frontline website because...

I didn't see it. Just the pictures of him and the way he is portrayed is enough to scare me to death.

Then I started reading things that other religious journalist, leaders, etc., was saying about him and I am just kind of speechless.

This one from a Wayne Slater's article, "discusses some of his private talks with Bush about his faith which Slater says fits well with Bush's conservative political philosophy of "hard work, good things for business and an absolute right and wrong in everything." Slater also talks about how Bush convincingly reached out to Texas's evangelical community in his gubernatorial campaign, how he continues to shrewdly woo evangelicals, and how in the White House Bush "has surrounded himself … with conservative Christians." In this interview

This fellow Gaddy, his interview about Bush is completely different from the others. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/jesus/interviews/gaddy.

Main Start Page. Hit yellow button on left where it shows him and the words "Jesus Factor" Get prepared to be sick at heart.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/

[bleedingheart]

22. Funny thing is that I heard a priest last week give a great speech

about how unchristian republicans are...it was great! so he did a lot to reaffirm my beliefs.

[burythehatchet]

24. That is so encouraging to know.

Would you mind telling us which denomination, out of curiosity?

[Kat45]

25. I hope the person you addressed this to gets back to you, but I

thought I'd let you know that my church, where we are doing that Bible study on fundies, is a Congregational church. My minister can't stand to see or hear bush speak to the same extent that I can't. Congregational churches are truly governed by the congregation, so each individual church is different depending on the people within it. But for the most part, it is an open, tolerant church. There is no heirarchy. I'm on my church's spiritual life board, and we are about to recommend to our congregation to commence a study/learning process so we can decide whether or not to become an "open and affirming" church.

On a related note, May 17 is the date the Mass court said same-sex marriages will be legal, and our minister wants guidance from the congregation on what to do if a gay or lesbian couple comes to the church asking him to perform a marriage for them. He would have no problem doing so, but since the congregation is in charge in this type of church, it would have to be put to a vote. I think most of our folks would be ok with it, but we do still have a significant number of people (mostly older folks) who have a problem with it. This should be interesting.

[bruce21040]

27. Gay Marriage is a hard pill to swallow for some

I am a Lutheran, the Lutheran church does not believe in Gay Marriage, or homosexuality for the most part.
My Ideas on the subject stray just a bit from the conventional train of thought for my church.
If two men or two women are gay, they will end up living together, and loving one another with, or without the approval of the church.
In my mind, if that gay couple were to commit to one another in a ceremony and become a legal couple in the eyes of the law, it would only serve to lessen the crime against the church in my opinion.

The problem could be relieved I think, by calling it a union ceremony, or a partnership, or any other term than marriage.
The thought that two people that have lived together and loved one another for however many years can not have a say in their partners medical, or have rights to children or possessions is just wrong.

My heart, and my prayers go to all of you that are living without the benefits of a legal binding union.

[grannyfran]

26. We're Out Here Doing Our Best

Some examples:
Clergy Leadership Network
Center for Progressive Christianity
Sojourner Magazine
Bishop John Spong

Some of the sponsors of the March For Women:
Episcopal Church, USA
Presbyterian Church, USA
United-Universalist Church, USA
United Methodist Church
United Church of Christ
Catholics For Free Choice

We also had a devoutly Christian, progressive liberal candidate in Wes Clark.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[QC]

30. Bye bye!

[LeftofU]

31. The KKK just called for you....

they said to wash your sheet this time before the meeting because you stank last time.

[burythehatchet]

39. Darn, I missed the post. Must have been entertaining