Scariest. FRONTLINE. Ever.

[Paragon]

Evangelicals are scary, regardless of religion. Bush will never get that log out of his eye.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/jesus/

[BigDaddyLove]

1. No doubt...............

The more I learn about George W. Bush, the scarier he (and his supporters) become.

[Oddman]

55. I usually like Frontline, but I thought they did a shallow

and uninspired job on tonight's show. It didn't delve into bush's past very much and most of the show was interviews with his evangelical brethren. A very cautious program . . .

bush actually said:

"I believe that God wants me to be president." eeeeeeeeghad!!!

A pretty bland religious portrait of a man who claims to have conversations with god and a grand illusion and extraordinary claim that his God chose him to be President!

Thiumbs down!

[BigDaddyLove]

79. I have to respectfully disagree.........

in my opinion, tonight's FRONTLINE was fantastic (as usual).

In interviewing (for the most part) only Evangelicals, it really allowed the viewer to see just how powerful (and dangerous) their belief systems are...especially when those beliefs are held and acted upon by the most powerful person in the free world.

I don't think that the average FRONTLINE viewer needs to hear what the 'other side' of the argument is in this case, we were allowed to make up our own minds, and not told what to think in response.

Personally, I came away from the program appalled that Bush has become the President of the United States, and worried about how much power and influence these Evangelicals have in this country.

[American Renaissance]

2. end game

I honestly believe if the power and influence of the Christian right on American politics isn't addressed, it will eventually lead to a military coup.

And the really scary thing is, that could be the only thing that can save America.

[SpiritsDad]

7. end game question

Hi Ashamed,

I fully agree with the need to restrain the influence of the Christian right.

I don't however, understand your statement that "that could be the only thing that can save America." Can you elaborate a bit? Save America from what?

Thanks...

[Zero Gravitas]

10. From a theocracy

which as abuot as far from a democracy as any form of government.

[Cleita]

73. Do you live in Utah?n/t

[American Renaissance]

19. well,

Lets say your a general, and you walk into the oval office and the president tells you that over bible study God ordered him to nuke China.

If your the general, and the president is obviously insane, what are you going to do?

[SpiritsDad]

62. now i get it

thanks.

Having spent 20 years in the military (not a Gen..but close) I can fully relate to your example. It is not that far fetched I fear.

I know what I would do in your example, but it is quite easy to replace me with one who would comply.

[ArkDem]

97. your is a pronoun

.

[aquart]

12. No. That will be the end.

It will mean none of our processes or protections work anymore.

We will be over, not saved.

But we will be told we are being saved. Just like the people of Iraq.

[American Renaissance]

21. It saved Turkey,

It is the absolute worst case possible, but it is better than the apocalypse.

[NEOBuckeye]

70. Then we'll just have to begin anew.

If our processes and protections don't work anymore, then we'll start new ones. But first, we will revolt... just like the Iraqi people are doing now.

It's never over, guys.

[chookie]

96. You're not the first person to think of this

Usually it's the Pentagon who is beating the war drums. But when it came to Iraq, they told Rummy no, that it was a bad idea all around.

So Rummy got rid of those people, and replaced them with Yes Men. (This was all occurring in late Oct/Nov 2001) There's the old pattern -- refuse to listen to people who disagree with you, even though they are the acknowledged authorities, and exaggerate the importance of bad intelligence and idiotic ideas.

The mythology is that Bush is the Soldier's President, a hero to the military, when actually they regard the guy as a disaster.

I think we're a ways off from a military coup.

But a possible scenario is if they unleash the army against the American people. Remember -- the Flying Monkeys and NeoCons (aka "The Insane") regard "liberals" (formerly known as "The Sane") as Enemies of America, and have the same hatred towards us as they do (supposedly) for Al Qaeda. In their eyes, we are one and the same. Does anyone think this passionate hatred is just going to vanish some sunny morning? We've seen police incidents in which Americans have been fired upon with rubber bullets and tear gas and batons, but if they bring in the National Guard, I think at least some of these guys are going to refuse to fire on their fellow countrymen. And that's when a coup may occur.

There is so much hatred between Americans these days, and no one is paying any mind to it -- as long as "liberals" are the ones getting shot at. So, like the threat of international terror, they are ignoring the threat of domestic terror. If I may borrow a phrase from Bremer's speech on Bush's blindness to the terror threat -- it's going to take a big incident to get anyone's attention.

All bets are off, folks. We're going to be living history over the next ten years. I sure hope I am wrong.

[illini]

3. Its funny I was brought up to believe Jesus was a champion of....

the poor, the outcast, and least among us. Not a champion of the rich, the powerful, and bigots. What a mockery of Jesus(imho). Its is also funny how many who identify themselves as Christians are in reality cafeteria Christians. They say the Bible is an infallible document and God's word. Then the pick and choose which part suit themselves.

:smoke:

[Kool Kitty]

59. Somebody brought you up right.

The Jesus I was taught about said that the meek shall inherit the earth, not the greedy warmongering bastards. I seem to remember that Jesus also ran the moneylenders out of the temple. These people are not Christians.

[Occulus]

81. Well guess what?

The Bible also says that during the end times there will be war and rumors of war, and those who follow the Antichrist will be deceived into believeing he is their savior, their god.

Do we see a paralell here?

[LoZoccolo]

4. 39% of evangelical Christians are Democrats...

...39% of evangelical Christians are Democrats...39% of evangelical Christians are Democrats...:boring:

[DAGDA56]

6. so 61% are something else? Didn't watch...please explain.

[LoZoccolo]

16. Oh there's this thing...

...you know, this idea I have that like, oh ya' know...there's a bunch of people I've seen here that are professing evangelical Christians that like, I really think we should be a little bit more welcoming toward since they generally do share the views of the majority of people here about church and state and all that and like...well, I don't think we should be calling them "scary" or whatever so maybe like, they can go back to their churches with a lot of good ideas and information and like, then maybe the Republicans can't go around convincing people that their party is the only one that respects their religion and all...an idea...:boring:

[Paragon]

17. By definition, evangelicals do not respect others' beliefs.

They "evangelize" - try to convince you that if you are not "born again", do not agree with their beliefs, you are damned.

Most evangelicals also believe the Bible to be absolute truth and the word of God. I have no problem describing that as "scary".

[LoZoccolo]

22. Scariest. President. Ever.

:eyes:

My message wasn't about anyone's belief system.

[mopaul]

24. we're all goin' to hell

head first, right along with him

[MUAD_DIB]

33. Maybe if I get there first I can get

a management position.

[mopaul]

89. please remember me in hell

i'll be in the damned insurgent cartoonist section. i'll need a job to take my mind off the 2000 degree heat and the red hot poker up my ass.

[liberalhistorian]

27. I'm a Christian, and I can honestly

say that, after 8200 posts here, I have never felt unwelcome or experienced other unpleasantness here because of my religion. Of course, I'm not a fundie nutball either and THEY are the ones everyone should be absolutely terrified of.

They want nothing short of a dictatorial theocracy and will stop at nothing until they get it. They insist on shoving their own warped version of Christianity down everyone else's throat, and are trying their damnest to codify their beliefs in the laws that govern EVERYONE.

They insist on the right to tell everyone else what to do, what to read, watch, listen to, how to live, etc., etc., while turning around and whining about how "persecuted" and "discriminated against" they are.

They have no understanding of the true meaning of the Constitution or the purposes of the founding fathers, continuing to insist that the nation was founded by Christians who wanted a theocratic state.

They have twisted and distorted and warped true Christianity into something damn near unrecognizable; indeed, I wonder how many of them have ever actually READ the Bible, especially the New Testament, because they are so far away from the true teachings of Christ and the real meaning of Christianity that it would take light years for them to see it.

hen it comes to our feelings about the fundies, damn near everything people say on here is justified. They are NOT true Christians and I'm damn sick and tired of them attempting to dictate their own warped version of Christianity to those of us who are mainstream Christians, and I'm tired of them claiming we're not "real" Christians unless we totally toe their line on EVERYTHING.

Christ wouldn't recognize them at all and they wouldn't recognize God if he stood before them in five hundred feet of thunder and lightning and glory.

[LoZoccolo]

32. I wasn't talking about this right-wing movement.

From my post:

...there's a bunch of people I've seen here that are professing evangelical Christians that like, I really think we should be a little bit more welcoming toward since they generally do share the views of the majority of people here about church and state and all that and like...

Evangelicalism, and even fundamentalism, is a theological tradition that doesn't necessarily overlap what the right-wing is doing...that's why it doesn't surprise me that 39% of evangelical Christians are Democrats...:boring:

[liberalhistorian]

34. I was trying to make the point, though,

that I think DU is pretty welcoming to Christians, I don't see much discrimination on here at all and I'm speaking as a Christian.

[LoZoccolo]

44. I've seen some evangelical Christians complain about it.

I've seen other threads where they're talking about it amongst themselves and they say stuff like they mostly ignore it - basically I think if there's one person complaining about it, it may be twenty that don't and ten that just give up on this joint. And I'd hate to see that happen because this is a valuable place where those people that attend evangelical churches that - and I praise this courage - don't take the right-wing line and stand up against it amongst a lot of people that fall for it. I'd like to help those people get what they need here. I'd like to help them help others see how much they get taken advantage of, how unbecoming of their values this right-wing movement is, how much that separation of church and state protects their religion as much as it resists government as a tool of it. There's a lot of bad stuff going on right now with a lot of people who think they're doing the right things in charge of it. I cannot fathom how a religious denomination (SBC) got around to supporting a preventative war that killed 20,000 people. But I'd like to do more than complain about it and hold a two-minutes hate over the internet about it. And I think we start by encouraging those people within this theological tradition who go against what you and I feel is a dangerous tide, and that starts by treating them as friends and fellow partisans.

[truthspeaker]

86. and it is OBVIOUS we are only worried about the whacked-out right wing

so what's the problem? Evangelicals are welcome on DU, as long as they don't advocate nuking all Muslims to fulfill some prophecy.

[LoZoccolo]

87. I was advocating being more sensitive with our language.

We shouldn't use a term used to describe a broad theological tradition to describe the political movement.

[truthspeaker]

88. but they use it themselves, so it's hard to avoid

Part of their strategy is to try to convince normal Christians that they're on their side.

[LoZoccolo]

91. Agreed, but we can't do anything about that.

One thing we can do is not buttress their so-called monopoly by not making them unwelcome on our side.

[Only Me]

40. Good Post and Very True. n/t

[robbedvoter]

42. Christian Right vs the right Christians

[Joanne98]

45. Bravo. They are a disgrace to Christ

The opposite of what he was. It's nice to here a real Christian stand up. Thanks. You give me some hope. :)

[BiggJawn]

47. That was EXCELLENT!!

You knocked it out of the ballpark that time, LibHist!

You, and Jimmy Carter, and a lot of the fine folks on this board who call themselves Christian and care for other people are as far away from what is being promoted in the mainstream and the media as "christian" as I am from being a contender to beat Lance Armstrong this summer.

Having said that, though, there are still some who do not have your clarity of vision and can't see that when we beat up on the Evangelical Fundies we don't mean THEM.

I'm an Atheist, but if what you believe gets you through the day An it HARM NO-ONE,do what you will, that's cool, and I'm cool.

But I get my hackles up when I'm told that the Founding Fathers were "good Christian men" who founded this country as a "Christian Nation" (Treaty of Tripoli notwithstanding, I assume?) and then I see the stuff the Dominionists are trying to do to our country to turn it into a "Christian" Theocracy.

Me, I believe that when Jefferson said "an INPENETRABLE WALL" he meant exactly that. He did NOT mean "an Osmosis barrier, where The Church can dick with the affairs of The State, but The State must keep their hands off The Church."

Good rant, I appreciated it!

[BiggJawn]

48. That was EXCELLENT!

You knocked it out of the ballpark that time, LibHist!

You, and Jimmy Carter, and a lot of the fine folks on this board who call themselves Christian and care for other people are as far away from what is being promoted in the mainstream and the media as "christian" as I am from being a contender to beat Lance Armstrong this summer.

Having said that, though, there are still some who do not have your clarity of vision and can't see that when we beat up on the Evangelical Fundies we don't mean THEM.

I'm an Atheist, but if what you believe gets you through the day An it HARM NO-ONE,do what you will, that's cool, and I'm cool.

But I get my hackles up when I'm told that the Founding Fathers were "good Christian men" who founded this country as a "Christian Nation" (Treaty of Tripoli notwithstanding, I assume?) and then I see the stuff the Dominionists are trying to do to our country to turn it into a "Christian" Theocracy.

Me, I believe that when Jefferson said "an INPENETRABLE WALL" he meant exactly that. He did NOT mean "an Osmosis barrier, where The Church can dick with the affairs of The State, but The State must keep their hands off The Church."

Good rant, I appreciated it!

[Steely_Dan]

93. Atheist?

Good post...Just one question: Isn't it just as hard to prove that there is no god as it is to prove there is one?

-Paige

[truthspeaker]

94. atheism isn't about proving there is no god

It's not believe there is a god or gods because we see no reason to think there is.

More: www.infidels.org

[BiggJawn]

95. Who's talking about "proof"? It's all about BELIEF.

How's that line go? "The only diference between me and you is that I believe in one less god than you do..."

Sure, I'll be first on my block to admit that I can NOT prove that something called "God" does not exist. If I could, do you think I'd be sitting in this basement, fixing busted tape recorders? I don't think so. I'd at LEAST have my own TV show...:-)

Conversely, the "other side" can NOT prove that this "God" entity does exist. Oh, I know, Solzhenitsyn wrote "Listen to Him thunder, and tell me He doesn't exist", and I've read the "Intelligent Design" stuff, but you know what? It's ALL Theory.

No Proofs have been presented either way.

So I choose NOT to believe that a god-being exists.

And if I ever see a proof that i can accept that He does exist?

well, it's rather insane to deny the existance of something real, isn't it?

[Steely_Dan]

103. But Consider...

The fact is that "atheist" does mean that you state that there is NO GOD. Yes, I understand that it is a "belief." But that is assumed. Everything we think...every position we take IS a belief.

Having said that...

I was an Atheist until I was about...28. At that time I started thinking to myself that I can no more "state" (as a belief or otherwise) that there is NO god anymore than a "theist" can prove there IS a god.

I began to realize how "intellectually" ridiculous my position was. I was no more on solid ground than the strongest believer in god.

My only alternative was "agnosticism." Being agnostic doesn't just say "I don't know if there is a god." It states much more.

Agnostics understand the logical dilemma of "proof." So they say:

If there is a god (and that is a BIG IF), we as humans are absolutely incapable of understanding the concept. It is so far beyond our ability to conceive, that to even take a position one way or the other is intellectually dishonest.

I wasn't being critical of your post. I just believe that most atheist are really "agnostics" and don't know it.

-No Worries.

-Paige

[BiggJawn]

104. I use the literal definition of the word.

"Atheist"-"Without God".
That sums it up in a nutshell, I think.

I think that there is no god, thus I'm an Atheist.
If I was open to the idea that "we just don't know one way or t'other", then I would call myself an "Agnostic". But as I said, should a reliable proof ever become known for the exisitence of God, I would be willing to change my POV.
I was once a Christian, I KNOW you can always change your mind.

The concept of faith works both ways. If someone can state "There *IS* a GOD, no, I can't prove it, I just BELIEVE in FAITH that there is!", why can't an Atheist stand on blind faith as a reason for his lack of belief.

You just gotta have Faith, baby!
:-)

[Steely_Dan]

106. Yeah, Maybe you're right.

[liberalhistorian]

98. Thanks, BJ!

And I find it so incredibly ironic that the fundies and neocons love to quote Jefferson when they're trying to defend their argument that this nation was founded by Christians who wanted a Christian government. Jefferson wasn't really a Christian and was one of the strongest proponents of the separation of church and state.

They take selected quotes of his and twist them all out of context, and most Americans frankly don't know enough about him to be able to tell that that's what they're doing.

[BiggJawn]

105. The Fundies are good at "twisting quotes"...

Just look at what they do with that book they hijacked. wow...

[liberalhistorian]

107. Amen

to that, lol!!!

[Demonaut]

63. you got it right, what is that bit about false prophets? and i aint talkin

about Enron.

[PassingFair]

78. Bravo, Liberal!

As excellent a repudiation as I've ever seen on DU! You give me hope that all is not lost.

[Kool Kitty]

60. Christians aren't scary.

The bunch that is running this country are not Christians. But they sure are scary.

[callous taoboy]

90. This attempt to blend

our democracy with fundamentalist religion is way over the top. The hard-core bush evangelicals struck me as nothing short of psychotic. They can take their religion and GO AWAY! Smug, self-righteous ASSHOLES!

On the other hand, Rev. C. Welton Gaddy, an evangelical, was spot on.
I really like this man because he embodies religion's role in our society (NO religion shaping public policy). I actually received a hand written thank you from him when I dropped him a note of appreciation for his role in the Capital Hill "Catholics need not apply" brew-ha-ha when he defended our good Democrats who were under fire for trying to thwart Pryor's nomination. I wish I had a tape of his speech.

I also took away from this Frontline the fact that bush is a nut. He really believes he's been chosen. This, no doubt, accounts for the smug arrogance and the "I'm on a mission from god" idiocy.

[dweller]

5. did you catch that line from his congressional run?

"Individuals should be responsible for their personal actions"

like he has ever had to....

dp


edit: it was from his run for Texas governor...

[mopaul]

8. it's the dead zone

history? we'll all be dead

[robbedvoter]

9. "God doesn't wake up in the morning thinking he is you" - Addiction corner

reminder on AAR - Morning Sedition. he surely need that.
Rather than assuming God is on their side, they should ask themselves if they are on the side of God.

[2Design]

11. how can these christians justify killing

How do they say they are prolife when Bush killed over 150 people while he was governor and is now in Iraq murdering people?

[killbotfactory]

14. If you believe you're doing the will of God you can justify anything

That's why insane shitheads like bush should NEVER be put in positions of power.

[Demonaut]

64. can you say "Osama",

[killbotfactory]

67. *ding ding ding ding ding*

Others are Jim Jones, David Koresh, Ayatollah Khomeini, The Taliban...

[Occulus]

84. ...that guy that ran "Heaven's Gate"....

[Paragon]

15. Anything can be justified with an out-of-context Bible passage.

Anything. In their case, "an eye for an eye" seemingly outweighs "thou shalt not kill".

[FlashHarry]

38. Funny thing. Jesus refutes that specifically.

In his Sermon on the Mount. Silly me... I thought that as a Christian the New Testament superseded the Old--that the words of Christ were the end-all, be-all. Guess not...

[napi21]

20. Don't believe ALL reborn Christians are like Bush!

I have a cousin and her husband who are both reborn Evangelical Christians...her husband is a minister. BOTH of them think Bush is insane. It's not what he says about his faith, it's his actions.

Any real Christian doesn't ONLY support the wealthy, and hiding everything they do.

I hate to see documentaries like this one on Frontline because it is decieving and betraying the very people who believe the stories portrayed here. The story is a good story, unfortunately George Bush doesn't practice that at all.

[Demonaut]

65. frontline should show both sides.......hopefully

[bloom]

75. I also thought the show

might make some people think that United Methodists are wackos.

I think United Methodists are pretty moderate, generally, in their religious views - though the small town churches may be more conservative. Mostly are NOT fundamentalists.

The Bible Study he went to seemed to shape his views more than his wife's church.


Overall, though, I thought the show did provide a framework in which Bush* could be understood a little more. In a scary (thinks he's God) kind of way. :scared:

[BigDaddyLove]

76. I don't think anyone would argue that all Christians........

are like Bush, or even that all Christians even think he's sane; I do think however that those Evangelicals like the ones shown on FRONTLINE who support Bush and would agree that God speaks to (and has chosen) the idiot are dangerous.

In fact, I would argue that those who call themselves Evangelical Christians don't practice anything that even resembles what most people consider Christianity.....a religion of Love and Acceptance.

[liberalhistorian]

29. Because they are NOT

true Christians, that's why!!!!!!!!!

[Indiana_Dem]

61. Yes, I'd still like to find in the bible where it says

that it's okay to kill each other in war or otherwise. In other words, I thought thou shall not kill means thou shall not kill. Period.

[tnlefty]

108. "Special Bible study " classes maybe?

My spouse and I have been encountering more people who are attending these "special" classes. It's as if when a person begins to question the lies, killing of innocents, etc., they attend a special Bible study class which both of us have noticed seems to be as we refer to it "twisted justification" classes.

Lately we've been wondering....re-education classes?

[nankerphelge]

13. I'm sitting here watching ...

it with my jaw on the floor. Is this even America anymore? Ultra disturbing.

[Octafish]

18. That's the BASE -- Bush's Al Qaeda.

To get them on OUR side, these good folk need to learn one thing:

BUSH IS A CROOK!

[robbedvoter]

26. He is a holly crook! Steals for Jesus! Praise the lord!

Nothing, absolutely nothing will pry the deranged from the delusional!

[Octafish]

35. It's not a thing...

... What will turn them against the Little Turd from Crawford is the Truth.

[robbedvoter]

39. They make up their "truth". karl made it for them, and Ralph Reed

Their brains are in the dryer.

[Octafish]

41. Yeh. We need pictures of Ralph Reed and Crisco in their white robes.

The rest of the BFEE prefer their Wehrmacht uniforms.

[callous taoboy]

92. And so are his bros:

See this month's Harper's. Neil and Jeb are shysters. Harper's goes on to point out that the media completely ignores this with bushII. While bush I was running we were hearing all about Jeb's Silverado S&L scam, and it impacted bushI's election campaign.

[Octafish]

102. Thanks for the heads-up. Here's more backstory on the BFEE.

This is from waaay back. It's a must-read for the future's sake.

THE FAMILY THAT PREYS TOGETHER

EXCERPT...

JEB LINKED TO SMUGGLERS AND THIEVES

Jeb Bush has also been linked to Leonel Martinez, a Miami-based right-wing Cuban-American drug trafficker. Martinez, who was linked to Contra dissident Eden Pastora, was involved in efforts to smuggle more than 3,000 pounds of cocaine into Miami in 1985-86. He was arrested in 1989 and later convicted for bringing 300 kilos of cocaine into the U.S. He also reportedly arranged for the delivery of two helicopters, arms, ammunition, and clothing to Pasto- ra's Costa Rica-based Contras.

Federal prosecutors in Miami have a photograph of Jeb and Martinez shaking hands but won't release the photo to the public. Whether Jeb was aware of Martinez's drug trafficking activities is not known, but it is known that Leonel and his wife Margarita made a $2,200 contribution to the Dade County Republican Party four months after Jeb became the chair of the local GOP.

It is also known that Martinez wrote $5,000 checks to then Vice President Bush's Fund for America's Future in both December 1985 and July 1986 and made a $2,000 contribution to the Bush for President campaign in October 1987.

Martinez's construction company gave $6,000 in October 1986 to Bob Martinez (no relation), the GOP candidate for governor in Florida; he was governor from 1987 to 1991. At that time, Vice President Bush was serving as head of the South Florida Drug Task Force and later as chair of the National Narcotics Interdiction System, both set up to stem the flow of drugs into the U.S. While Bush was drug czar, the volume of cocaine smuggled into the U.S. tripled.

President Bush later appointed Bob Martinez in 1991 head of the U.S. Office of National Drug Control Policy- the drug czar to succeed the controversial William Bennett.

CONTINUED...

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/COL207B.html

[Algorem]

23. Once you eggsept Juheezus as your personal savior it don't matter what

you do afterward kuz yer goin ta go ta heaven.

[robbedvoter]

25. Now you know why Woodward's book is recommended reading

His base don't give a damn about 700 million or when he decided to go to war. The higher authority - he is their boy, all right!

[VelmaD]

28. What a bunch of self-centered assholes they are...

"I want to bring religious faith into the center of public life."

Well, what about those of us who don't want religion shoved in our face you selfish asshole? ARGH!

[mopaul]

30. they don't negotiate or capitulate

they won't go away either

[ChickMagic]

100. That's what scares me

They won't go away and I fear that no matter what the vote is in November, he won't leave. Since God put him in there, do we really think that he's going to let some "librul" mess with God's plan?

[Christ was Socialist]

31. I admit I'm a terrible Christ follower but...

I am a neo gnostic Christian still in the process and i respect all beliefs, excluding fundamentalism, and racism. I even support equal rights for athiests. My idea of a christian is someone Like Reverend Ray www.liberalslikechrist.org or http://www.catholicworker.org/index.cfm or Martin luther king. Or low and behold Jesus, there are many millions i can't name, but Bush isn't one, hope i'm not judging.

[liberalhistorian]

36. Telling it like it is is not being

judgmental, I assure you; saying Shrub isn't a Christian and sure as hell doesn't act like one is not being judgmental, it's telling the truth. Sometimes you HAVE to tell it like it is!

[mopaul]

37. i watched...very very very very terrifying

my mother and brother succumbed to this bornagain sickness over 30 years ago, it's incurable

[napi21]

43. What you see in GWB isn't a true reborn Christian.

I'm not sure what he is, but if you listened to the one comentator on Frontline who kept saying it's a distortion of religion, that's what GW is doing.

The scariest thing is that he will obviously have the support of the extremes, and there's nothing anyone can say that can change that (other than GW admiting something like paying for his girlfriends abortion). I have no way of knowing how many people comprise his base, but I can't believe it's anywhere close to a majority of the US.

It's VERY important that we mobilize everyone to vote in Nov. or we will lose. Everyone in his base will be there for sure.

[Octafish]

46. What can re-vert them back? The Truth!

God is Love. He loved the world so much he sent His Son. His Son said: "Love God. Love One Another." Bush doesn't do either one -- the examples are many in his entire adult life.

Still, it IS seemingly impossible to revert them. The folks across the street became missionaries to Nigeria for their nut-ball fundie pastor who gets all the "credit" with the higher-ups in the church. They took their kids, 6 and 4, with them. They were in the middle of the fight between the Muslims and the Christians -- both sides fighting for control of the animists. In the process they all got very ill. They're back stateside, now. They plan on returning in a couple of years. There's no talking to them. They are like Pod People.

BTW: I'm Roman Catholic and I believe in the message. I don't see how these people can believe Bush does, too. His actions deny everything in the Word -- from Forgiveness to Compassion.

[lindashaw]

49. Pod people is the best analogy I've heard to describe how

insidious this phenomenon is. The scariest thing of all is that there's a real chance that Democratic Underground will have to go underground literally. There have been times in history when people who refused to become part of the "You're either with us or against us" have had to go underground. Someone tell me that we can stop this from happening. Are there people at the forefront of leadership who have their eyes open and will fight to hold back these winds?

[DaveSZ]

52. Let's not lump all Evangelicals into the crazy Pat Robertson/Bush camp

Let's be careful not the generalize too much, because they did have moderate Evangelicals on the program who disagree with Mr. Bush.


Here are my thoughts after seeing this program:


First, I want to say how much I respect Bush for his personal faith, and I'm glad that he was able to overcome his drinking problem.

I'm convinced that he truly does have a very strong personal faith, and I REALLY want to like the guy on a personal level.

However, what I don't understand is how the Prince of Peace, love thy neighbor, help the poor, be tolerant of others, turn the other cheek Jesus became the war-mongering, screw the poor, screw the environment, piss off our allies (neighbors), homophobic, Supply Side Jesus.

I also consider it an act of extreme arrogance to provide billions in funding to Evangelical organizations allowed to discriminate in their hiring practices but exlude Jewish, Muslim, and other faith organizations from any funding through the uncontitutional "Faith Based Initiative."

As much as I want to like him, it's hard for me to respect a man who thinks of the US Constitution as toilet paper. :argh:

[Paragon]

56. The question needs to be asked of Bush...

As President, do you serve the Constitution first or God first?

I'm all for people worshipping whatever they want to in their personal life, but a President's duty is to the Constitution.

[napi21]

50. You're right Octafish.

I'm Roman Catholic too, and I watched this Frontline story and kept saying.....the message isn't wrong, but that's not what GW is doing!

I'm almost afraid to say this here, but....I remember reading the statement "there will be many false gods appear before you".

Oh boy, now I sound like a preacher. Sorry.

I'm just thinking GW thinks of himself as a god and he's going to convert the world. He's wrong!!

The bigger problem is that Kerry can't make this into a religious war campaign, so we have to hope GW will shoot himself in the foot enough times that some of his base will see what's really going on.

[Indiana_Dem]

71. You don't sound like a preacher!

I'm glad you said it! You're just saying what the bible says and Jesus taught to discern a true believer by their works. Bush's works do not mimmick Jesus' teachings and that's what all evangelical Christians should know and see if they knew their bible and didn't just pick and choose what they want to believe, read or hear from some pastor.

Many also talk about the fact that Bush claims he consults a higher power other than his father and that God talks to him. That woman who killed her children also heard God speak to her. What God are we talking about here??? That's the real scary question!!

[QC]

51. Evangelicals and fundamentalists are not the same thing.

Jimmy Carter is an evangelical. Jerry Falwell is a fundamentalist.

Considering that quite a few evangelicals are Democrats, and considering that we need every vote we can get, insulting Democratic evangelicals by lumping them in with the likes of Falwell is not a good idea.

[mmonk]

53. can we shame them (those that voted bush the first time)?

[DaveSZ]

58. QC:

That's exactly what I was talking about.

By protecting the separation of church and state, we protect people of all faiths in this country.

:)

[Paragon]

54. As someone interviewed on the PBS site said...

Liberals think evangelicals are fundamentalists and fundamentalists think evangelicals are liberals.

"Evangelical" is a slippery definition, but I think you know which evangelicals I was referring to.

[QC]

68. Then why not call them fundamentalists?

That's what they proudly call themselves.

[Paragon]

69. They may have fundamentalist desires...

...but the term "fundamentalist" scares off the middle. "Evangelicals" is a softer, nobler term.

I have no doubt of Bush's fundamentalism, but he and many others portray themselves as evangelicals.

[LoZoccolo]

57. Hmmmm...

From what I know about the history, fundamentalism is really the belief that there are a set of defining doctrinal beliefs to a religion - that there are a handful of "fundamental" doctrines that one must believe to be considered a member of the religion. Usually they're purely doctrinal and not practical (practical would be thinks like "don't smoke").

I guess part of my point is, we'd like to apply a convenient label to people who are overzealous and have to keep publicly apologizing for things they say that end up in widespread circulation, but there really aren't any available.

[Cleita]

66. I came to the party late.

Computer mal-functions etc..

LA Times has a good article about it in their Calendar section yesterday, 4-28-04. The writer was scared.

[skooooo]

72. I spent way too much time around them...

..that's for sure. Man I've got some weird memories.

[kskiska]

74. The moderates are itching to get rid of these fundies

and will even tolerate a Dem president to ward that end. If * loses this election, I believe the moderates will take control of the party and oust the religious right. The fundies will probably form their own party, which could be a good thing for Dems.

[DaveSZ]

77. The moderates are losing badly.

:(

[Room101]

80. Ladies you better get fitted for your burkas -nt

:(

[Cleita]

82. Haha.

If that happens, gentlemen, you'd better get fitted for your athletic cups, especially ones that resist a sharp scalpel.

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mopaul]

85. couldnt' sleep, dreamed about 'the jesus factor' all night

that scared the hell out of me. not surprized, just scared, cause i have several devogelicals in my family

[Ilsa]

99. What was the name of that group within

Dept of Health and Human Services that was doling out the faith-based money? They had given out $100 mil and all went to Christian charities, none to Jewish or Muslim charities even though they had applied as well.

[donhakman]

101. king of kings