Why don't we just turn Iraq back over to Saddam?

[Solomon]

What's the difference. We gave Fallujah back to his generals.

As despicable as people think Saddam was (I reserve judgment because I know how good at demonization we are), does anyone at least harbor a modicrum of respect for the order that he maintained in one of the hottest spots in the world?

My flame jacket is firmly in place. Go for it.

[greatauntoftriplets]

1. I agree with you.

:)

[BurtWorm]

2. No respect for Saddam from me.

I think the war to change the regime there was wrong, but I don't think he was much good for the Iraqi people at any point of his career. Look at what he led them to. The end.

[Solomon]

4. Interesting reply. Saddam is to blame because we bombed the

fuck out of Iraq?

Let's play armchair general. If you were the leader of a country with one of the world's largest oil reserves facing a world superpower, wouldn't your number one goal be to obtain weapons for your defense?

Has Bush not made it absolutely clear that the only defense for a coveted country is to obtain weapons of mass destruction? (Note how we never attack a country that can defend itself, and how we give loans and trade agreements to countries that have nukes).

Did not Saddam, as every other socialist from Castro on down, place education and health care as top priorities?

Did we not ruin Iraq, as we try with Cuba, by years of sanctions, after which we gloat about how fucked up their economies are?

I'm sick to death of the hypocrisy. As I said, our demonization of people is superb. I hear people comparing Saddam with Hitler, which is absurd. But, as I said, I'm equipped with my flame jacket.

[BurtWorm]

7. Remember: Saddam was a CIA creation.

He was propped up and supplied with WMD by the Reagan administration. It's true that the standard of living in Iraq was very high, and women were treated better there than any other country in the Arab world. And the Gulf War and American sanctions were directly to blame for the reversal of Iraqi fortunes in the 1990s. But while Saddam may not have been Hitler, he was no Gandhi either. And the fact is, he fucked up, and he fucked his country over. He bares some responsibility for the state his country is in now.

[OneTwentyoNine]

33. So...when do we attack Equatorial Guinea?

Dictator in that country treats his people like crap also. Had a fraud of an election in 2002 that keeps him in power until 2009. He got 97% of the vote.

They pump over 180,000 barrels of Oil per day,maybe Chimp will be interested.......

[OneTwentyoNine]

25. No flaming from me

That old fucker was contained. Bush knew it,the CIA knew it we all fucking knew it. But contained doesn't put Cheney and Hallibruton's hand on the Oil spigot.

SH treats his people like shit....so does Bush, or hasn't any Freepers and flag wavers counted up the dead and wounded??

Its a HUGE GD mess in Iraq now all because of Bush and his BS lies....

[madrchsod]

3. if he was a general

in saddam`s army he must have been handed picked by saddam. george you just lost face to every arab in the world even your best buddies the saudi`s...god, what a loser of a president.

[BlueEyedSon]

5. Thomas Friedman on Oprah

"Perhaps Saddam is the way he is because of the way Iraq is."

Sorry it's a paraphrase, not a direct quote since I can't find the transcript online. Also, in general, I dislike TF because he seems to be a Bush apologist (esp, w/r/t the Iraq war).

His point is that Iraq is a set of arbitrary boundaries which contain 3 ethnic/religious/political groups who want to be separate from each other, and Saddam's "iron fist" style was the only thing holding the country together.

It may be possible to transition Iraq to a "democratic" confederation of these groups, but the costs/effort/time frame has been seriously underestimated.

No disrespect or respect towards Saddam over his ability to rule Iraq, just an observation.

[charlie]

16. If that little morsel of insight

just occurred to Friedman, then he's every bit the shallow reactive pinhead I've long thought he was.

[BlueEyedSon]

18. That quote is from a long time ago, perhaps before the war.

In my attempt to find an air date, I found this nugget:

I saw Thomas Friedman on "Oprah" today. He made a point on Israel by saying; "Israel won a war in six days, they have been stuck in the seventh day for 35 years."

He said this to make a point about how Israel and the U.S.A. are hated because they can win wars but not the peace. Their policies don't include the losers. Hence the Palestinians with nothing to lose because they are not included in the Israeli dream of a good life, strike in the only way they know how. With suicide-bombers. We haven't equipped the Palestinians with the terrible weapons the Israelis have. I don't condone this acts, but I can understand the frustration and hopelessness they feel.

Posted by: Tin Soldier on March 18, 2003 08:43 PM

http://www.nathannewman.org/log/archives/000860.shtml

[charlie]

31. No matter

Yeah, naturally he knew what any high schooler has known, I was snarking. But in spite of that, Mr Give War a Chance, We Did It Because We Could, The Terrorism Boil Needed to be Lanced Friedman, threw his full-bore support behind Dubya's folly. He knew the neocons had zero plans for contingencies other than being heralded as saviors. He knew that Iraq had fuck-all to do with 911, that Bushco's every stated reason for this war was a lie. He knew Rumsfeld rode herd on Tommy Franks until the invading force (nevermind the post-invasion occupation forces) was trimmed into a lo-rent budget operation. He knew Bushco had Chalabi and the INC thugs waiting in the wings to be crowned as our despots-du-jour. He knew of Bush/Cheney's penchant for diverting every stray dollar, drachma, kopek into Halliburton/Carlyle's pockets. And above all, he knew GeeDub was an insane IDIOT. Yet, he provided cover for our Preznit. And now he has the temerity to wail because it's all going south, as he knew it would if he was as clear-eyed, honest, and half as deep as he imagines himself to be. Fuck Friedman.

[BlueEyedSon]

32. We are on the same page.

"Mr Give War a Chance, We Did It Because We Could, The Terrorism Boil Needed to be Lanced Friedman..."

LMFAO!!!

The bushies tipped a precarious situation, and tossed all postwar (uh, "post-major-combat-operations") planning out the window.

[trekbiker]

6. Saddam was a tyrant..

but he kept tight control and now we have a wide open terrorist breeding ground. In the end Iraq will be an Islamist state and a haven to terrorist organizations.

This fucked up POS administration cant do ONE THING RIGHT. not ONE single thing. EVERY SINGLE decision they make is CRAP, whether it's war on terror, environment, health care, foreign relations, energy policy... it's so insane that I cant even think about it without raising my blood pressure. Nixon, Reagan, Bush I combined weren't one percent the DISASTER that this president and his Fascist regime are..

[OneTwentyoNine]

29. Think how many terrorist will NOW come out of Iraq...

Hell,we don't have to worry about terrorist sneaking across the border to set up shop in Iraq. With the unending fucking hatred Iraqi's now have for ALL Americans Bush has most likely created a terrorist COUNTRY.

But...that fits well into his plans for never ending War and attacks. PNAC wants it,Carlyle,Halliburton profit from it....

David

[Ironpost]

8. despicable

Sure looks from my side of the table he was doing a hell of a job, compared to what we are doing

[uncle ray]

9. i can see the SNL sketch...

the chubby guy on SNL that does saddam, the sketch would be a spoof of cheech & chongs "nice dreams"...where they get busted and the cop comes up and says "you can just go now" saddam will go on and on, saying "no you can't do that!" he'll want to stay in the cushy u.s. prison where he is safe, enjoy the prison hottub, golf course...

"you can just go now, saddam"

[Solomon]

11. Now that's rich.

Good one uncle ray.

[Solomon]

10. Here's the biggest fuckup as I see it.

In the past, when we subverted governments, we always cultivated a strong enough section of the subject country to have another regime put in place. We didn't exercise an overt presence.

It seems with Iraq, we failed to do this, and decided to go in anyway without laying appropriate ground work. Consequences be damned, we'll do it anyway. And now look what we got.

I for one, will not forget the following facts: By the time we had invaded, Saddam had let the inspectors back in, and they asked for more time. Number two, the Iraqis released their report to the UN in which they stated, that they had no wmds. How come nobody is reporting that it appears that Saddam was telling the truth? Hunh? This really bugs me. No mention at all of the fact that they did report to the UN and the UN was inspecting to verify the report.

Now we get people who can't face the truth and insist on some made up bullshit like "I still think he had them, he moved them to Syria."
Arrrrgh. I can't stand it.

[BurtWorm]

12. I agree that the war was a mistake. An immoral, fucked up mistake.

But what's done is done. Saddam is not getting back into power. Nor should he. The Shiites and Kurds wouldn't stand for that, for one thing, and they far outnumber the Sunnis.

[Solomon]

19. Come on Burt. You know my question is rhetorical.

Don't you?

[BurtWorm]

22. I thought it was originally.

But then you asked if we respected him. And my answer to that is, no, I don't respect him. But I do think the world would have been a lot safer if the war had not happened. Maybe that was your original question. Unfortunately the sanctions would still have been in place, but I truly believe the Iraqis and the rest of the world would at least have been safer.

[Solomon]

23. Well, it's unfortunate as one reply to this post said, but I admit

that I do respect some aspects of the man. I certainly don't think he's a dumb as you know who. I don't believe he is the mindless tyrant that we want to make him out to be. I don't believe that he had no good aspirations for Iraq. I think he wanted to be as proud of his country as any other leader would be. And I certainly don't fall for the Hitler comparison. As a matter of fact, Bush is more Hitler like in my opinion.

I really would be interested in seeing how many people he executed over the same time period as Bush when he was governor of Texas.

[BurtWorm]

24. I wouldn't want to go there, frankly.

I believe the stories about his psychopathy. Have you read the Cockburn brothers' book, Out of the Ashes? It gave me a realistic perspective on Iraq. You have a point about the economic benefits Saddam brought to the country, but he was a cold-blooded motherfucker. There's no doubt about that.

[Solomon]

26. I'm not afraid to go there. I've read several books about Iraq.

Yes, Saddam had some tremendous faults, but when you learn what the sanctions did to their infrastructure, and how many people it killed, and the depleted uranium and everything else, I have to have respect for what he was dealing with. I'm not ashamed to say it. I'm tired of the hypocrisy. Our policies have killed more Iraqis than Saddam did.

[BurtWorm]

27. You knew it was coming: What do you base the comparison on?

Not that I would be surprised if it were true, considering that by some estimates half a million Iraqi children died because of the sanctions, and a whole generation is undernourished (to the point of being something like 75% of the previous generation's body weight)because of them. (Clinton's people had a hand in that, we have to admit.) But do you have numbers of Saddam's victims to compare them to?

[Solomon]

28. No I don't. You're right. But I'm interested in seeing a comparison.

I might be wrong, but it would surprise me if Saddam killed that many people. Of course I'm not talking about his war against Iran or the smashing of the uprising after Gulf War I since Bush, Sr., encouraged these people to do it and then left them hanging. The way the media has portrayed things, he just went around killing people for no reason other than sadistic brutality.

I wonder what would happen here if we had an uprising. Would we "talk" them down without killing them? I don't think so, not with the present american attitude, which quite frankly, is extremely violent and unforgiving.

I'm just doing some thought provoking, that's all. I mean no disrespect to people who have suffered under Saddam. I'm happy you're conversing with me about it.

[BurtWorm]

34. I hear you. I'm definitely not of the Saddam is Hitler school.

And I definitely believe the US has a long shameful history in Iraq. Just don't want to excuse a ruthless dictator for his role in the mess. My sympathy is with the people of Iraq, not with Saddam or the occupation.

[Solomon]

35. My respect for what Saddam was up against is not adverse to

my sympathy for the people of Iraq. Your post implies that I have "sympathy" for Saddam and not for Iraq. It also implies that I'm trying to "excuse" a ruthless dictator. I've done nothing of the sort.

One can only hope that you would imply the same zeal in condemning and not "excusing" the current dictator of Iraq and his brutality.

I don't care what one thinks about Saddam morally. It's simply an undeniable fact, that we are killing more Iraqis right now, than Saddam was doing when in office. Now if you want to say the end result is worth the price, then that's a legitimate argument, but there can be no denying that in actual state of fact, we are stopping and searching, going door to door rousting people, shooting 'em at checkpoints, building walls, bombing people. You know, I saw a blackhawk helicopter satellite feed of our pilots, targeting individuals as they left a Mosque. When the tiny figures left the Mosque, our boys opened fire. And guess what, they weren't firing bullets. They were firing ROCKETS. At individuals. You could see people scrambling and trying to hide, to lay down under tractors and trucks. The pilots would point them out, and then Poooooom!! Whole truck blows up.

I really don't think Saddam was doing that to his people at the moment we took him out. So. I'm just trying to get behind the bullshit. We got no moral right to demonize someone else with the shit we're doing.

[BurtWorm]

36. You misread me.

I wasn't trying to imply that at all. I was trying to tell you where my sympathy lies.

I've been opposed to the war since it was clear Bush was going to have it back in September 2002. I am opposed to it now. As I said in a previous post, I firmly believe the world would have been better off if Saddam were still in power.

[Solomon]

37. Cool. Just making sure people don't think I'm a Saddam suckup just

because I see things a little differently. I hope it ends well somehow. But jeeeeeez, what a mess. But we told them didn't we? The whole world marched and the UN told them. Why they are getting such a free pass is beyond me. Let's pray it ends the right way. (Whatever that is :))

[jmags]

13. No, I have no respect for the order he maintained.

It's unfortunate if you do.

[DrWeird]

15. Like the US is any better.

What's the big difference?

He tortured and raped Iraqis...

We torture and rape Iraqis...

[Solomon]

17. What's unfortunate about it? None of the current administration had

any problem with the guy when they were supporting him. Oh, I see, they changed their minds and started with the demonization, and you bought it hook, line and sinker. Sweet.

If we kill more Iraqis in two or three years than Saddam did in ten, would that mean anything to you?

[DrWeird]

14. We're probably working with him now.

He's probably one of the Baathist party members we're getting advice from as reported recently. Probably copped a deal.

[nostamj]

20. Tom Toles on Saddam today

[ElsewheresDaughter]

21. check out the pic of the general tyaking over Faluja...Saddams body double

[AngryAmish]

30. Only if he brings his Information Minister back

That guy was good.

[Hubert Flottz]

38. I smell another Bush Waffle cooking!

The Waffle King loves the BAD Generals now! How long before the rape rooms and torture chambers fire up again and do bidness as usual! BTW it looks like the torture chambers never did quite shut down, they just changed hands! Now with this latest "Mother Of All" Bush Waffles the Torture will again be in Iraqi hands! Waffles sure are expensive!

[markomalley]

39. I think we should restore Iraq as it was before we destroyed it...

...and that includes Saddam Hussein. We illegally deposed him. We had absolutely NO RIGHT to do so. Period. If his people do not like him, then they should get him out of office. Or, the UN should pass a security council resolution calling for his removal (in which case, a limited excuse for some kind of action might be called for). Otherwise, it's illegal.

Just because you don't like him doesn't mean you have the right to remove him.

[Solomon]

40. Well said.