Another reason why I don't "support the troops".

[the_real_38]

This scandal where they were beating and sexually abusing these Iraqi prisoners. Here's one link, though it's all over:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1206725,00.html

<snip>
According to lawyers for some of the soldiers, they claimed to be acting in part under the instruction of mercenary interrogators hired by the Pentagon.

US military investigators discovered the photographs, which include images of a hooded prisoner with wires fixed to his body, and nude inmates piled in a human pyramid.

The pictures, which were obtained by an American TV network, also show a dog attacking a prisoner and other inmates being forced to simulate sex with each other. It is thought the abuses took place in November and December last year.
</snip>

<snip>
One civilian contractor was accused of raping a young male prisoner but has not been charged because military law has no jurisdiction over him.
</snip>

It is very unpopular to say that you don't support the troops, but I don't . The fact is, the Bush regime is causing a rapid militarization of our society, and the wrong elements of civilization are coming into prominence - the ones that deal in control and domination of other people through violence. If the economy gets bad enough, who's to say we won't see the troops standing on the corners of streets in Los Angeles? We don't need to support the troops - we need to find solutions to problems that don't involve troops.

[H2O Man]

1. It's a tough situation.

My oldest son is 20. A kid he went to school with, shared a tent in scouts with, and who I knew as a polite kid, died a few weeks ago. He thought what he was doing was patriotic. His family may even believe that Iraq is part of the "war on terror." I don't know. I made plenty of stupid things at that age. This boy payed with his life. They only recovered a few little parts of what had been his body. I know it is wrong to kill the innocent people in Iraq. I think the death of these young men in Iraq is also terribly wrong. There is blood on bush's hands.

[Ironpost]

3. driping

with blood i say

[the_real_38]

4. Even the nice ones....

.... (and not all the troops are) are being roped into doing things that they shouldn't have to do - in some instances they are being dragged into a culture of violence that can be flat-out sadistic. It reminds me of the 'Nazi Guard' Syndrome - a lot of them were just vicious a***holes, others went along with the atrocities through peer pressure, or just because they were ordered to. And I know that a lot of these are just kids who went in for the money, and never figured that they would be doing the types of things that they are, now. But Bush and Cheney are just using this 'support the troops' shit to funnel more and more of our society's resources and destiny to war - I feel that if you support the troops, you are (whether you like it or not) supporting that, too.

And as for George Bush's fake-Chrisitan ass, if there's a hell, there's got to be a special bonfire down there with his name on it when he gets there.

[H2O Man]

6. I hear you.

I appreciate what you are saying. Yet I think that it is possible to recognize distinctions. A 20-year old is, of course, far more likely to respond to a Sgt's order to commit an act of violence than, say, a 45-year old man. And a 20-year old is responsible for their actions. Yet because you and I are aware of the criminal, immoral, evil nature of bush and his war, many of those children in uniform surely are not. Again, I respect your opinion, and would not try to tell you to believe other than you do. But I see it a little bit different, and think that the war -- with it's violence, it's killing and dying -- are too high a price for being an ignorant, patriotic kid.

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. Having served myself

and my husband being a veteran, I can tell you that this is not black and white

Here is one thing that our "friend" does not understand.

Part of the UCMJ is the obligation to refuse to obbey an ilegal order. The orders given in that prison were clearly ilegal. Not that you woudl understand this.

One more thing, as a daugher of a Holocaust Survivor Camp Guards are not just a nice theory, but in many ways a reality. This means I spent many years trying to understand how they managed to do this.

You think that they got kids from a small town, and NO TRAINING in the Geneva Convention into this situation just becasue those kids had a reputation of a good unit? NOPE. They got them because as Jay Lifton found out, those from disadvantaged backgrounds harbor a certain anger... and it is eaier to funnel it when they come from a very small town where they have no ideas of howt he rest of the world works.

By the way, I am not justifying these kids, but Lifton also found out that given the right cirucmstances ANY of us could do this, and loose your humanity, so think about this before you go out and paint the US Miltiary with such a wide brush... after all it took someobdy speaking out and REFUSING to obbey an ilegal order, to bring Lt. Calley to the Court, and it took the RW to let him out well before he should have been let out.

Yep these boys and girl have to be tried, but so doees their ultimate commandign officer, Brigadier Kaminsky... and truth be told this culture probably goes further right now becasue of who or what is in charge, and this has been encouraged by speeches by people like Major General Boykin.

Think about it... and hard.

[HFishbine]

2. If you discovered they are Democrats

would that be enough to convince you not to support the Dems? Seems like you're painting with a pretty broad brush.

[NMDemDist2]

5. can somebody tell me? I thought the last I heard that Mari333

said her son was working at a prison. Is it this one? anybody know?

What a mess.

[DrWeird]

7. I believe it is, yes.

Her son was being intimidated by other US troops, and told Mari that he's seen "awful things" but can't tell what until he's safely back home.

I haven't seen Mari here at all in the last two days.

[NMDemDist2]

9. oh darn, that's right! CRAP! eom

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. She needs to contact a lawyer NOW

[mouse7]

55. He works OUTSIDE prison. The unit defending area around prison

He's not in that prison. She did say he had seen some ugly things, though.

[diamond14]

8. just like Vietnam....Americans began to hate OUR soldiers as they

mowed down civilians and unleashed a reign of terror onto Vietnam....free fire zones, killing women and babies, raping young innocents, drugs....and NOW, in Iraq...it's the SAME, Vietnam regurgitated....America has learned NOTHING from Vietnam...

bush* is destroying OUR military....it is the primary reason why the DRAFT will be implemented SOON....

[the_real_38]

12. But still....

... this doesn't get the point - we've got too many damn soldiers, and we need to stop relying on soldiers to solve our problems. Cheney and Bush are using their wars as reasons to grease the Military-Industrial complex machine, wasting our country's resources.

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. We actually don't have too many damn soldiers

By percentage of the population we have the lowest percentage of Ameircans in Uniform since the 1930s... and if it was up to Rummy he would cut two or three more full combat divisions.

Unfortunately we do NEED an armed force... as we are not living in Kumbaya.

[dpibel]

74. Too many

"We are not living in Kumbaya." Neither are we living in a world where there is some great threat to any part of America except America's presumption to control whatever natural resources and economic interests it wants to, where it wants to.

A great many of America's soldiers are busy running the--what is it? 134? 168?--bases America has around the world. Not to mention the 14 abuilding in Iraq. Do you truly believe that those bases are protecting us from "non-Kumbaya?"

I've heard nobody arguing that we do not "NEED an armed force." The question is: how much do we need, and do we need only a defensive force or what we actually have, which is an offensive force. If you dispute the latter, I ask you to consider the current adventure. Defense? No rational person thinks so.

The US has a ridiculously bloated military in every respect. The next largest military budget is China, with a mighty 60 billion or so, which is about 1/7 of the acknowledged US military budget, or about 1/9 of actual. Any way to make sense of that?

[WFF]

18. Exactly right

This whole "Support Our Troops" began as a guilt trip for how the Viet Nam vets were treated when they returned back home. Those vets were treated that way because of what some soldiers did over there (My Lai, etc.). Now, some of our soldiers and contractors are behaving in the same inhumane way. I'm afraid it won't be long before the "Support Our Troops" signs disappear and we start spitting on the returning soldiers from Iraq. I just hope these guards are just an aberration.

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. They can be, if we pressure our congress critters to

force the propper actions, including general court martials and trying the Mercenaries, who are the worst scum of bottom feeders.

And MOST troops wil not do this, but this also proves soemthing else, some of our troops are near, or beyond the breaking point

[saigon68]

57. WELL NOT WITH US AROUND

TIME TO GET MARCHING AGAIN

LOOKS LIKE COWARD AND CHICKEN HAWK ARE HAVING A PARTY IN THE CITY
THIS FALL

We need to go there and say hi to them







The second and last Nixon Inaugural Convention Miami 1972

Ron Kovic in the chair front far right

[corporatewhore]

10. delete

[corporatewhore]

11. would you support the french marquis or the german occupiers

if bush is hitler and all.

[Skittles]

13. our soldiers have been thrown into a terrible situation

they were NOT trained for the responsibilities they have in Iraq. They have been horribly misused by the thugs occupying the White House. I think you make a mistake by painting all soldiers as evil; most of them are just trying to survive.

[the_real_38]

14. The ones that were torturing those prisoners...

... to send pictures back home to their beer buddies are, if not evil, acting in a sadistic, evil manner.

[Rowdyboy]

16. We have, what 150,000 troops over there?

and a dozen or so are evil, perverted freaks...Thats a pretty infinitesimal number, far smaller than the number of psycho-assholes in the general society.

[corporatewhore]

17. they still are serving in an unjust imperialistic military occupation

to play devils advocate

[Skittles]

21. most soldiers did not sign up for THIS

it's up to US, the CIVILIANS, to put a stop to this terrible misuse of our military.

[nadinbrzezinski]

46. One word: UCMJ

Translation, TROOPS do not have a choice where they are ordered to serve.

[mouse7]

58. The UCMJ can be used to refuse illegal orders

No soldier has to follow an illegal order. If their commanders continune to order an illegal order be followed, they can surreber to another unit or another service branch.

You may go to the stockade, but I'd rather go to stockade than participate in what those MPs did at that prison.

[Skittles]

20. of course that is true

I just don't like to see all soldiers painted like that. Imagine if all Americans were judged based on the actions of a few freepers. Oh - wait - we f***ing ARE. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. Sorry to make it personal

but if you were placed in that same situation I can almost bet you woudl have a hard time NOT doing what they did... not that i am defending them.

Read the Stanford Prison Study, read Jay Lifton's works on Nazi Guards, and get off your high horse.

They have to be court martialed and they have to pay the price, but don't think YOU are incapable of similar actions. I have seen evil incarnate in the face, and many a times it comes in a very normal looking package

[Arianrhod]

52. Using this incident

as an excuse to hate the troops is not only a logical fallacy (generalization), but is unethical as well. A handful of soldiers behaved in indecent ways; the entire military is not at fault for that. If we substitute "blacks" for "troops", one can see where the fallacy lies.

There are other levels here, too. Why were these troops obeying the orders of contractors/mercenaries/whatever-you-want-to-call-them? As a former NCO in the US Army, I can state for a fact that any order passed through such a chain of command is an unlawful one. Where were the officers in charge? Where were the NCOs? What the hell was going on in that place? I have a feeling that the CO had let the chain break, and that the entire atmosphere there was one of reckless abandon.

Sick, twisted, illegal. Yes. But the entire military is not to blame for it.

[the_real_38]

54. I didn't say hate the troops...

... and the sentence "If we substitute "blacks" for "troops", one can see where the fallacy lies" creates a fallacy itself. Blacks don't by nature kill people, troops do - they're trained to, by the way.

[Arianrhod]

64. You're misapplying the analogy.

a. "This soldier is a criminal. Therefore I don't support the troops."

b. "This black man is a criminal. Therefore I don't support equal rights."

Both are examples of the logical fallacy of generalization. A sampling of a population does not characterize the entire population. Another term for this is "stereotyping".

My statement was not a fallacy.

[the_real_38]

66. The analogy is misapplied (in this sense) ....

... to the argument presented , then - this is only one example on top of a host of complaints that I have about the militarization of our society. We need solutions to problems that don't involve troops in the first place. I am not generalizing about the entire soldier population - but I am saying that what they are doing is against this country's best interests, and that if you adopt the political slogan "support the troops", then you are supporting the policies that keep them in places like Iraq, doing things that are wrong.

[Arianrhod]

67. Ok, cool. I agree with the militarization concern.

And I'm an Army vet. Let's leave the military in the military, I say.

But I also fear that we have already surrendered too many legitimate feelings to the RW simply because they wish to distort those feelings into their faux political slogans. IMO, we need to take those feelings back, to refuse to let the RW appropriate them for their own agenda. It's a lot like Carlin's "7 Words": they are only words, and no one should be allowed to imprint their own hangups on them, to the detriment of everyone else. In the same way, no RWer should be permitted to steal our rightful support of the soldiers, while we work to bring this immoral occupation to an end.

I for one refuse to be intimidated by RW empty rhetoric.

[mike_c]

62. how about using their participation in a criminal invasion...

...and a brutal occupation? That'll do for me, thank you. War crimes are ultimately committed by war criminals-- not just by politicians.

[Arianrhod]

65. I agree with the last statement. However, comma

We must resist the temptation to characterize all the soldiers in Iraq as war criminals simply because they are there. Let's save that for those who are actually convicted, shall we?

[mouse7]

59. Bullshit.

20 years ago, I broke up a gang rape at a fraternity house that "everyone else" was participating in. I was basically run off the university campus for doing it too.

If you give people the excuse to not stand up for what is good and decent, then fewer will stand for what's good and decent.

[corporatewhore]

15. to play devils advocate

dont they have free will.were the german occupiers just trying to survive did they have a mind and/or a conscience of their own

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. There were some SS troopers who refused to obbey ilegal

orders, and they used the German Army Code of Conduct. They were not forced to participate, but they were shipped to the Eastern Front. I am almost betting there is some of this ongoing right now...

[mouse7]

56. Then either face becoming a prisoner of conscience or you die.

Yeah... it's a pretty brutal choice.

Nobody would ever be successful at ordering me to do what those soldiers in that prison did. I'd take a bullet in the head first.

Hopefully, there are less extreme ways available to someone to avoid such a decision. Surrendering to JAG officers in another unit, another service branch, or to an allies legal command. You do what you have to do to make sure you can't be charged with desertion. If that means you have to stand trial on other charges and become a prison of conscience, that's what you have to do.

[John_Shadows_1]

19. The military budget rose from ....

... 280 to 309 billion under Bill Clinton over eight years -10% increase. It's gone from 309 to 400 billion under Bush in three years - 30% increase. And that doesn't include the costs of Iraq. It's insane.

[Redleg]

22. You don't need to support them but please don't attack them.

They are not all scummy bastards. Many of them are young men and women who enlisted to serve their country and got sent to Iraq by an ignorant, callous commander-in-chief. They are doing their best to survive in a bad situation.

[Norquist Nemesis]

24. One of the lessons of Vietnam

should have been not to paint a broad brush on the troops for those that do bad things. It's just not right.

Troops came back from Nam and were spit on, cussed at, things thrown at them...it was terrible.

Frankly, I just don't understand when people talk like this. It makes me just as sick as those who do things like slash tires and key cars for having a bumper sticker that's anti-Bush. It's not right, moral, or humane.

[the_real_38]

26. You're not addressing the logic of the argument ...

... the "support the troops" is a political tool for 'support the war' - and as long as we're spending these ungodly amounts of money on the military , we'll keep finding reasons to fight wars, to keep the Defense Contractors and (evil) Revolving-Door generals fat and rich and happy.

We need solutions to problems that don't involve troops - and the animalistic behavior that's being exposed today is just one more straw on the camel's back.

[Norquist Nemesis]

27. As a political tool it can't be separated

And you're never going to be able to win against a support the troops campaign because of it. The message has to be different than I don't support the troops.

My only point is that I don't want to see the men and women shamed and abused when they return home is all.

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. They won't

but he is facing the big blind spot on the Left, the right has its own, but he is facign the big one on the left.

he thinks we have too many damn troops, we don't, maybe soon he will be able to get an insight that he does not like, called a Draft... as we do not have enoguh troops...

Oh and one more thing, you can separate the suport of the troops, wiht things such as proper medical care, and housing of families, from the technologies of war... and those who think otherwise have no clue what they are talking about

[Norquist Nemesis]

47. and those who think otherwise

whatever.

[John_Shadows_1]

71. The ones who have committed war crimes should be shamed...

... people have to wake up and see that this is not the way for our civilization to go - if you make heros out of killers, what kind of standard are you setting?

[IranianDemocrat]

30. Question: Would you support military action to stop another Holocaust?

Or are you a complete pacifist.

[ButterflyBlood]

23. because of the actions of about 17 out of 150k over there?

come on.

[the_real_38]

25. Sorry, you're missing the point...

... this whole thing is being done to keep us in a constant state of war for George Bush's political benefit and the Military Industrial Complex's economic benefit.

If you support the troops you're buying in to the logic of war - the best thing we can do to support them as human beings is get them home, cut the military budget by two-thirds, and re-integrate the ones who are still capable of acting like civilized people back into society.

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. you are not making any sense

and by the way, we did what you want, this wonderful kumbaya world would not come to be, we still DO NEED an armed force, even if we need one for the protection of this country

I am betting you have no idea what I am talking about either, "common defense" it is in teh Constitution. Go read it

[the_real_38]

53. I'm making perfect sense...

... the military budget is increasing exponentially, we are now spending, including Iraq, close to 500 billion a year. The military and it's staunch supporters have to show their worth, so Cheney and Bush )who has four generations of ties to the military-industrial complex,), start wars to justify the high spending.

Over and above this is the fact that we have retreated to barbaric solutions to our problems - war.

As for Common Defense - a war in Iraq is not defense of this country. And 'support the troops' is a political rationalization for this insane policy of expanding conflict.

[LibertyorDeath]

28. The fact that they were so comfortable doing this that they posed for

pictures says alot IMO

1) They thought it was OK to do this.

2) There would be no negative consequence from doing this

3) This is not an isolated incident but a window into the mistreatment
of Iraqi prisoners.

4) Their superiors are OK with it or turn a blind eye.

Now it's blown up in their sick sadistic faces..God you have to be
one dumbass fucker to actually pose for pics while your break every Geneva convention on treatment of prisoners in the book.

Where do they find these imbeciles. I mean I've seen some dumb shit in my life but this takes the cake.

If you think it's only 17 out of 150K think again.

[Redleg]

29. The proportion of sick fucks in the military is probably the same as

in the civilian population. Granted that our military folks are facing more stressors than the average civiliarn. At any rate, there's no need to derogate all our military personnel because of a few fuck faces out there. Of course I am somewhat biased, having been a soldier and having soldiers in my family.

[LibertyorDeath]

41. Consider for a moment

a profession I say profession because my Father my Grand Father my Great Grand Father and all of my Uncles were all professional military men.
Some did not make it home some were taken prisoner & were never the same again, and some were injured in combat.

I would never "derogate all our military personnel because of a few"

but consider that a profession that lets you legally kill or hunt others

may just may attract far more than it's fair share of sick motherfuckers.

With all due respect..

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. Again you assume much

and YOUR PERSONAL BIASES and the BLIND SPOT for the LEFT is showing

(The right has its own)

Most who JOIN the armed forces do such to serve, and to get some training in useful skills

Most truck drivers in the army, are truck drivers later in life, most Med Techs are well Med Techs later in life. Most do the same kind of jobs you and I do. There is what one in ten soldiers who are actually COMBAT TROOPS, who do the killing and the dying, and those... are the ones who KNOW the true cost of war... and it is a cost YOU will never understand. Thank those who are willing to go there. Oh and in case you wonder, not that it matters to you... the ARMED SERVICES feel abused by this administration and will not vote for Bush. They are angry, they feel betrayed... again something about honor, duty, country...

You are judging most of the troops, for the actions of a few... and most REAL military men and women want to see these boys and girl COURT MARTIALED for DISGRACING the uniforn, the Army, the Solider's Code, and the United States... concepts that are probably ALIEN to you.


On the bright side they are alien to you... pray that remains the case, even if you will remain ignornat of much you do not understand.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LibertyorDeath]

51. No. How many ways do I have to say this?

"You are judging most of the troops, for the actions of a few"

No...No...No... I am saying that a profession that lets you legally kill people will inevitably attract Sadists.

What is it about this that is hard to understand.

"You are judging most of the troops, for the actions of a few... and most REAL military men and women want to see these boys and girl COURT MARTIALED for DISGRACING the uniforn, the Army, the Solider's Code, and the United States... concepts that are probably ALIEN to you."

You assume much in your arrogance

[Redleg]

69. Are physicians who perform abortions sadists?

After all, abortion is a legal way of terminating life (if you accept that life begins at conception).

By the way- I do support a woman's right to choose. I just thought this might be an example that would make you think about your soldiers as sadists comment.

[mouse7]

60. Pentagon having training probs because of so many right-wingers

There was a thread here a few days ago with talking about how the military is having problems because of the way the volunteers are trending to the right politically. It's evidentally a problem for training budgets because they are seen as more stubborn and dogmatic, and therefore more difficult to train.

The military now has a lot more sickos per capita then the general population. That's what happens when they increase numbers of extremists in uniform.

[the_real_38]

61. I agree...

... the type of people who are attracted to the military are going to contain a higher percentage of violent control freaks - people who just enjoy dominating or victimizing other people, like L.A. cops. And it's just a matter of time, if the economy keeps producing the economic disparities it has recently, that we're going to see unrest, and these same people will be called out to deal with that. Better think about that.

[mike_c]

63. these weren't sick sociopaths...

They were part of a systematic and institutionalized pattern of violence and brutality. They were garrison troops keeping the bloody wogs in check, just like all of the other garrison troops in Iraq! It sickens me to hear so many people trying to make excuses for them and "support" them.

[Redleg]

70. You don't know that.

I do agree with you that the rigors of combat and occupation can bring out the beast in people.

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. No, but it is still a minority of the troops in country

You are assuming much,

By the way, one way to stop this... Court Martial these boys AND THEIR CHAIN... GOT IT?

[corporatewhore]

37. all the rest are still serving in an unjust military occupation

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. They have no choice, they cannot just say

we will not go.

It is called mutiny and in time of war, they face a firign squad.

Betcha did not know that.

This is why YOU AND I are their voices to bring them home... this is HOW you support the troops... by becoming their voice, as they DO NOT have a right to that precious Freedom of Speech you and I have a right to.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

48. Signing up for orders to blindly kill on command=more than zero complicity

[Tellurian]

35. This has got nothing to do w/supporting the Troops-

this type of training issued to the troops is by private contractors hired by WHO? Is the million dollar question?

WHO ordered these specific contractors to teach this despicable training to our troops?..

That head should be the first to roll in a heartbeat...and then determine WHO told HIM/HER to order these people to take our troops to the depths of corruption and see from how high up these sadistic ideals emanate.

The treatment these prisoners are getting is more than just torture, this treatment smacks of RACISM!

[the_real_38]

72. This has plenty to do with supporting the troops ....

... there's a broader issue here than a single incident - the media and the government is getting us in some Roman frame of mind, to take our minds off of our economic decay, to grab needed resources, whatever. Our society is becoming militarized - and supporting the troops means supporting the concept of more troops, and that's exactly what we don't need.

[corporatewhore]

39. there was an interesting aricle on this subject a while ago

http://www.infoshop.org/inews/stories.php?story=04/04/16/6608950

[Tellurian]

49. Thanks, I just scanned it briefly..

and a thought occurred to me while reading as to how we can break through..

Everything in the article is well researched and documented, the only thing lacking is a solution..

If we go on the premise Bush KNEW about 911..which there is no doubt in my mind he did...These atrocities have to be coming from the WH ...they were planned in advance to make these people suffer unimaginable atrocities. Otherwise how would Bush know to stack the deck protecting himself and independent contractors and our military from prosecution by the ICC for War crimes and crimes against Humanity.

Since Bush took office, All the resolutions written to the UN rejecting joining the ICC were thought out well in advance. I just read them.

Link all these covert activities on a charm bracelet and you have tangible evidence of Treason and Sedition jeopardizing the Constitution and imperiling the lives of every American citizen living in this country.

[historian]

68. bravo to you

I've been saying i dont support them since the beginning. If you support them you support bush. Simple enough.

[sadiesworld]

73. You don't support the troops b/c of the grotesque misconduct of a few?

That seems no different than the generalizations employed by the right to demonize those they disagree with.

Edit to add: You are now not only blaming rank and file military for the war but also for *'s facist policies at home?

[Malva Zebrina]

75. it is brave to not succumb to the "convential wisdom" out of a guilt of

sort.

We do not, imo, have to automatically support these troops and if we do not, we do NOT deserve to be villified.

We do not know what these troops think. We are not obliged to rain down upon them the mantra of sainthood because they are "protecting our freedoms" which they are NOT, and because we are being told they are "brave and they are heroes and those who have been killed are the fallen "heroes"

I cannot understand what is heroic about invading a country that is defenseless, that has no military at all, and that has been bombed for the past ten years

I simply do not understand that. I am not villifying these soldiers, but I find it difficult to believe they are 'defending our freedoms" and are "heroes" at all

It is sad that they have been killed, but, imo, ascribing to them a myth that they died in "defense" of the freedoms of America, doen NO ONE a service.

Sorry, I just cannot buy it.

They joined. A Maine man was killed . He joined after 9-11 to invade Afganistan. He thought he was defending our freedoms and the deaths of those who were killed in 9-11. He was caught up in excessive nationalism without a discerning eye. He had two children. He , then went to Iraq. To serve Bush's greed and Halliburton's CEO's. He was killed and his loving family will NEVER be the same.

This is not bravery. This is NOT defending anything about the US but the corporations who are making big bucks.

It is a waste of our children's lives and we need to educate our young to make them be able to discern the lying bastards such as George W Bush and his insanity.

We do NOT need a father to be killed for oil fields. His children do NOT deserve to lose their loving father, to the greed of an AWOL commander in chief who loves dressing up in the war costumes and declares himself a "war president' on national TV, and his vice president with five deferments

well, it should be obvious

we "little people" do NOT need to cowtow to rich, frat boys, who went AWOL in time of war--who were appointed, not elected and who now assume they are so wonderful and so great as to send our children to die for their own profit.

No way

Bush has got to go. He is the absolute worst, and the most evil and the most dumb president ever.

Babs, I hope you are reading this. You at some point have to admit your son is an idiot.

[John_Shadows_1]

76. Amen, sister...

... they've got people charged up with the patriotic bull****, just to make some fat-cat defense contractors rich for the foreseeable future.