We will continue to keep an eye of what's happening out in California at this Michael Jackson proceeding. We'll go back there as necessary.
But there's other very important news happening around the world today as well, especially in Iraq. Important developments, specifically involving Fallujah, a city of some 300,000 people in Iraq.
Let's get some expert analysis of what's happening in Iraq beyond Fallujah, the entire situation. Richard Holbrooke is a former U.S. ambassador to the United Nations. He's joining us now live from New York.
Mr. Ambassador, thanks for being patient. Thanks for joining us. What do you make Mr. Ambassador, of this decision to try to give Iraqi generals, Iraqi military officers the main responsibility in bringing some sort of stability, security to Fallujah, while the Marines slightly pull back?
RICHARD HOLBROOKE, FMR. U.S. AMBASSADOR TO IRAQ: Well, I'm sorry to break in to the coverage of the king of pop, but I'm glad we can talk about these issues. Ten Americans died yesterday in Iraq. The United States Army is -- and Marines are correct to look for an alternative to a full-scale of assault in Fallujah. There's no question about it.
But until we know more about it, we have to be very careful. If these are Ba'athist generals who served Saddam Hussein, this may look like we have turned Fallujah back over to the very people who were trying to kill us. This is a very complicated situation. And I was glad General Abizaid was so cautionary in the comments he used earlier.
BLITZER: There is a widespread expression that people in the administration are making people and the coalition are making. There were members of the Ba'ath Party and there were other members of the Ba'ath Party. Some were only members in name only. That's why Ambassador Bremer is now take a second look at the credentials of various Iraqis and maybe now giving them a second chance to help now this restoration of stability.
Good idea?
HOLBROOKE: Well, Wolf, let's be honest about this. Ambassador Bremer laid out a series of objectives and plans over the last year. Not one single deadline has been met. Not one single thing he said he would do has been achieved.
And now the president himself has said that Brahimi, not Bremer, will determine what comes next. Bremer's mission has not been a success and we have to face that.
The interim constitution is going to end up on the scrap heap of history. The Governing Council is going to be disbanded. Brahimi is going to create a different structure which the U.S. will endorse. That structure will undoubtedly ask for a different deployment of American forces.
I think that the issue you raised is pretty marginal compared to the overwhelming tragedy of what has happened in Iraq. Now we're rushing tanks back to Iraq for what was supposed to be a period in which we were drawing down our forces. Instead, we're going in the exact opposite direction.
We have to send more tanks to protect our troops. This is an extraordinary situation. Let's be clear, it's the most serious crisis the U.S. has faced since Vietnam. And we all need to pull together and work for a correct solution to it.
BLITZER: Mr. Ambassador, but the June 30 deadline, you heard the president say in this joint photo opportunity, this little news conference with the prime minister of Canada, June 30, the president determined to go forward with it. There will be...
HOLBROOKE: Wolf...
BLITZER: ... this handover of sovereignty to the Iraqis on July 1.
HOLBROOKE: Of course. Of course he's going to go forward with it. If he didn't, he would have accomplished the miracle of uniting the Iraqis -- who haven't been united about anything since the country was founded 82 years ago -- uniting them around the principle of anti- Americanism.
He has to go forward. He made a bad decision picking that day, and now he's stuck with it. But, as he himself has admitted, he, the president, has no idea who we are handing sovereignty over to, and nor does Jerry Bremer.
This decision will now apparently be made by Lakhdar Brahimi and given to the United Nations Security Council. It is -- let's be honest about this, it's a tragic shambles of a policy. In Fulton, Missouri, today, in the same place in which Winston Churchill made his famous Iron Curtain speech and in which Vice President Cheney talked a few days ago, Senator Kerry laid out his alternatives because he shares the concern of all Americans that we cannot afford to fail, that the policy itself is in disarray, verging on collapse.
BLITZER: He'll be delivering that speech in about an hour or two from now out in Missouri, the Democratic presidential...
HOLBROOKE: I have read -- I've read an advanced copy of it, Wolf. I did not realize he hadn't delivered it yet.
But he will call for a three-part approach to this issue. He will call for a NATO -- stronger NATO presence. He will call for much greater internationalization, that Ambassador Bremer's role will be superseded by an internationally appointed person, much like we do in Bosnia, Kosovo, East Timor and Afghanistan. And he will lay out his full support for achieving America's objectives in Iraq, but in a very different manner.
BLITZER: A year ago tomorrow, the president was aboard the Abraham Lincoln, the aircraft carrier, and he made several important points. One important point that's getting all of the publicity a year later is when he said, "My fellow American, major combat operations in Iraq have ended in the battle of Iraq. The United States and our allies have prevailed." You just heard the president say getting rid of Saddam Hussein was objective number one.
He then, in the speech aboard the Abraham Lincoln, went on to say, "We have difficult work to do in Iraq. We're bringing order to parts of that country that remain dangerous." In other words, what White House officials are saying, it was a dual message that was coming through aboard the Abraham Lincoln a year ago. Do you accept...
HOLBROOKE: Wolf, you can't -- no one can seriously believe that that speech is the speech the president in retrospect would have liked to have made. Major combat was not over. We lost more people in this month of April than we have in any combat situation in a single month since Vietnam. Most of them were lost in tragic roadside ambushes.
The difficult work ahead was not combat. It was reconstruction. Reconstruction is now stalled.
And of all of the objectives the administration set out -- and remember, I supported, as you well know, because you interviewed me on this, I supported the objective of getting rid of Saddam Hussein. I supported the resolution. But the way it was implemented was incredibly ineffective.
And the only objective that the president and the administration have laid out in the last 15 months that has been achieved is the removal and capture of Saddam Hussein, for which we're all grateful. Saddam was a terrible person. And in the long run, the Iraqis will be much better off without him than with him. But what happened since May 1 of last year has been a terrible tragedy. It has hurt the United States internationally and in Iraq, and it has cost us hundreds of American lives.
BLITZER: But with all due respect, Mr. Ambassador, don't you believe -- and I assume you do -- the Iraqi people are much better off today than they were for three decades under the Ba'ath Party and Saddam Hussein?
HOLBROOKE: First of all, I just said that we're better off without Saddam Hussein. And I said Iraq is going to be better off in the long run. But your own poll on CNN yesterday morning, which was extremely revealing said the following -- and I am quoting the CNN- Gallup poll -- By a margin of two to one, the Iraqi people are glad got rid of Saddam Hussein. By a substantial majority they would like to us leave.
And by a vote of 71-19, according to your poll, they consider us occupiers, not liberators. And one-third of the Iraqi people told your Gallup pollsters that they considered attacks on Americans justified.
Those statistics show clearly what has happened in Iraq. They are happy to be rid of Saddam, but they don't like the way we have carried out the occupation. We shouldn't have used the word. It's been heavy-handed.
Ambassador Bremer has acted more like a pro-counsel than an adviser. Sovereignty has been derogated and diminished.
These things are fixable, but the time is late. And Senator Kerry will say in a few hours this may be our last chance to get it right in Iraq. And he is offering to support the administration if they get it right, as he has in the past.
BLITZER: Richard Holbrooke is a former United States ambassador to the United Nations. He's a Democrat, clearly, supports John Kerry for president. We're grateful to you for spending a few moments with us, Mr. Ambassador, as usual.
HOLBROOKE: Thank you. And you got it right at the end, Wolf. It's good to be with you again.
BLITZER: Thank you.
Much more coverage coming up. The situation in Iraq clearly very, very dangerous for U.S. troops. Just ahead, what the future for Iraq may hold for Americans and Iraqis.
We'll continue our coverage. Two leading members of the House or Representatives, Roy Blunt, Charlie Rangel, they'll join us live.
Stay with us.
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