'Pat Tillman had it coming'

[WilliamPitt]

Personally, I'd like to have a few words with this Gonzalez fool. What do you think about this. Note: The original essay is unavailable because the newspaper's website has crashed.

http://news.bostonherald.com/localRegional/view.bg?articleid=12575

UMass prez blasts attack: Calls Tillman slam `disgusting'
By Kevin Rothstein
Friday, April 30, 2004

A national firestorm has erupted over a University of Massachusetts at Amherst student newspaper column deriding NFL football player-turned-soldier Pat Tillman as an ``idiot'' who ``got what he deserved'' when he was killed in combat.

Outraged readers have bombarded the flagship campus and The Daily Collegian with complaints about the April 28 column by graduate student Rene Gonzalez.

``The Web site is actually down right now because of how many hits we've been getting,'' said Collegian Editor in Chief Jennifer Eastwood.

Eastwood said she had no regrets running the over-the-top opinion piece and didn't rule out accepting more submissions from Gonzalez, who is studying for a doctorate in political science.

The column derided Tillman, who walked away from a $3.6 million NFL contract to become an Army Ranger, for ``acting out his macho, patriotic crap, and I guess someone with a bigger gun did him in.''

Tillman's April 23 death in Afghanistan drew national attention, including condolences from the White House.

``However, in my neighborhood in Puerto Rico, Tillman would have been called a (Spanish expletive), an idiot,'' wrote Gonzalez, who also works in a minority affairs office at the Amherst campus.

``This was a `GI Joe' guy who got what was coming to him. That was not heroism, it was prophetic idiocy,'' the column continued.

...more...

[CatWoman]

1. Tucker Carlson talked about this story yesterday

and went on to bash ALL Liberals as typical of this guy.

The Fucker.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

3. Then we Dem's have to make Annthrax Coulter look like your....

typical KKKonservative!

:argh:

:puke:

[Burma Jones]

28. Calling this Gonzalez Goofball a typical liberal

makes about as much sense as calling Tim McVeigh a typical Conservative.

[markomalley]

38. He isn't? n/t

[Az]

40. Um, no

having to ask that suggests things.

[markomalley]

41. Uh, really?

Other than the fact that he was less inhibited than most, he appeared to be the same type of "patriot" "militia member" right winger as the rest of them. He just didn't feel constrained.

[Az]

42. Ok, which side of the comparison are you refering to

Are you saying that Gonzalez was a typical liberal or that McVeigh was a typical conservative?

[markomalley]

43. McVeigh = Right WIng Loonie = Typical Conservative n/t

[Az]

45. Ok, then I disagree but retract my implication

It is a far different order of mind to carry out such an action as McVeigh. There may be many that despise the federal government but they have a few more sandwichs in their picnic basket than McVeigh did.

[markomalley]

46. As I said...

...he had fewer "inhibitions" (fortunately, most of them have more "inhibitions" than he did)

[DrWeird]

2. "had it coming"

That's what republicans say every time an Iraqi gets killed. I can't help but think turnabout is fair play.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

4. Interesting perspetive. Though I do believe that it's unfair...

to say this about our soldiers in the field.

If we want to give justice then we must work our asses off to get John Kerry in the White House!

:kick:

[DrWeird]

8. It's unfair all around.

What's unfair is criticizing Gonzalez and not all criticize all the hawks who think the Iraqis have it coming.

It's nationalism.

[DjTj]

47. um ... isn't that all we do here?

We criticize the chickenhawks and we should certainly also criticize Gonzalez.

Nobody deserves to die in this war. I'll criticize anyone that thinks otherwise.

[ieoeja]

9. He's not IN the field ...

... he's under it.

Yes, I know, that was bad. But I'm just some guy.

:evilgrin:

[benburch]

7. Bullhocky

You want us to go down to their level?

Can't be done, because there is nothing lower than the slimy belly of a low-down Republican snake.

[DrWeird]

11. Want us too? No.

What I don't want to do is criticize Gonzalez more then the hawks.

[clonebot]

10. i'm pretty sure

the sheikhs and clerics that are bombed and assasinated are pretty important too to their people. then again, how can a spiritual leader compete with the nfl? as with any wartime death, i do mourn the loss - but to single him out for being a hero because he simply walked away from an nfl contract is a bit too much? how about the reservists who gave up their families and careers when they were pulled into the conflict? they weren't prepared. that's part of the reserves, I understand but tillman's death and sacrifice is just as important as any other.

gonzalez was just being a reactionary.

[DrWeird]

13. Yeah, the whole sports hero thing is ridiculous.

A lot of people should be ashamed.

[ieoeja]

5. This idiot is going for his "doctorate in political science"?!?

Doesn't reflect too well on the UMass political science department if this is the result.

[Bill McBlueState]

6. It's interesting that this is such a big deal

Stupid things get written in the Collegian all the time.

This time, I'm highly suspicious that one of our campus Republicans leaked this to just the right person. People rarely talk about what's in that paper, and suddenly this makes the national news.

[WilliamPitt]

18. I know exactly how this came out

A UMass alumni does a radio show for the Boston sports channel WEEI. He got his copy of the paper, read the article, freaked out, and read it again over the air on his show. The paper immediately got clobbered with phone calls, and the media storm was started. The WEEI guys spent two solid hours on this.

[MSgt213]

12. Remember that Tillman was doing what he thought was right and defending

his country. It wasn't his choice to start the war, but at least he was taking a role, no matter if you agree with the war or not, in attempting to end it. We should not disrespect him, because our leaders have put in the situtation to begin with.

[NMDemDist2]

21. Tillman was in Afghanistan, were the terrorists are

I'm glad that if he had to die for his country he at least died for the fight he signed up for. He left the NFL after 9/11 and joined to fight the al Quaeda. Which is exactly what he did.

I think making a special deal over him is silly when we have so many dying overseas, but at least he was were he chose to be and not sent on a wild @ss preemptive cowboy FUBAR mission in Iraq.

[Burma Jones]

30. Absolutely (n/t)

[VelmaD]

32. Last time I checked...

most of the September 11 highjackers were not from Afghanistan. We went over there and bombed the hell out of a lot of civilians who has nothing to do with 9-11. We started that fight over a freakin' pipeline deal. Not terrorism. We were already rattling our sabres at Afghanistan well before 9-11 ever happened.

[NMDemDist2]

Velma , I don't disagree and the pipeline is a little known

fact, but it doesn't change what Tillman thought he was doing. He thought he was fighting for 9/11 and that's what he died for. My point was it was his choice (correct or not) and he was where he wanted to be instead of this miscarriage we affectionately call "Mess O'Potamia"

[VelmaD]

37. I would imagine that...

some of the soldiers in Iraq (if not most of them) believe they're over there for good and noble reasons. Tillman may have thought he was doing the right thing but that doesn't make him right. Hell, I'd imagine most of the soldiers in Iraq think they're over there for good and noble reasons. And I don't see us giving them a free pass on criticism.

I'm just a little tired right now of how people, even here on DU, seem to think the fight in Afghanistan is somehow noble.

[Failure]

35. I heard he went to Iraq, then Afghanistan...n/t

[DrWeird]

22. The problem is thinking that makes him hero.

Because the 9-11 terrorists were also doing what they considered right.

[Cocoa]

14. he apologized

he learned something, which is what college is for, isn't it?

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/3252841/detail.html

[Skittles]

a lot of us weighed in on it here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=518898

[corporatewhore]

15. If he was from another country w/o a uniform he would be a terra-ist

what wonders a uniform insignias and coming from an imperialistic superpower can do!! what would happen if tillman was responding from a state terrorist act im sorry a military action and decided to blow up other people but what ever

[QC]

54. If my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle.

What's your point?

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

16. Actually I agree...

The column derided Tillman, who walked away from a $3.6 million NFL contract to become an Army Ranger, for ``acting out his macho, patriotic crap, and I guess someone with a bigger gun did him in.''

..yeah, I can see that POV. I sort of agree with it....

[The Backlash Cometh]

17. I think liberals should come out and denounce the Gonzalez guy.

I know it's not the prevailing opinion for liberals, and it's important that conservatives, like Hannity, don't peg liberals in that way. The only thing a liberal would do, is defend Gonzalez's right to say it, even though you may not agree with it.

[Chuletas]

23. he's ignorant

And the Puerto Rican bashers are lining up. Stereotyping all Latinos as unpatriotic Americans. Puerto Ricans have served proudly and bravely in all armed forces since 1898.

UMass kind of has this crowd of pseudo intellectuals who bash America for everything. This neo-marxist interpretation plays only with that .05% of the population. It's BS.

Say what you want oppose the war (I find it hard to oppose any hunt for Bin Laden)but the soldiers should be respected. These servicepeople are the only ones who are suffering in this conflict (and their families) and don't need some penny ante UMass "revolutionary" sniping at them.

Hearing crap like this article is just what the Hannity's, Coulters and other windbags need to fan the flames against the "liberals"

[The Backlash Cometh]

33. Our soldiers need us now more than ever.

I can't believe how our country abandons them when they become veterans. What person in their right mind will volunteer to fight for a country that will reject him if he gets disabled from fighting in the war?

[Michael Costello]

50. He's not even American

He's a foreign student who came to the US and this is what he thinks. I mean, he's not even an American. He uses Spanish words in his article like pendejo. This is one foreigners opinion.

[playahata1]

51. Puerto Ricans are AMERICAN CITIZENS.

And as such he has the right to speak his mind.

[diamond14]

19. just like Vietnam...when Americans began to hate OUR soldiers

this article is simply a ominous reflection of where OUR soldiers stand in the eyes of many Americans...

it's Vietnam all over again...as Iraqis are slaughtered, raped, tortured....as Gitmo continues to stick in Americans ribs....as mercenaries conduct bush* dirty work....many Americans realize that bush*s war is simply an oil slaughter for war-profiteers...

sadly, it makes the VOLUNTEER soldiers look real bad...



expect more RAGE from college campuses soon...the DRAFT is coming....

Vietnam regurgitated...at the very beginning, many called Iraq 'Vietnam in a microwave', with the fragging of officers so prominent right away....NOW, with the photo-diplay of OUR soldiers committing nazi-style war crimes, and college campuses are finally waking up...

[markomalley]

39. And what you are decrying is what finally got Vietnam to stop...

...when the country started to "blame the soldier" (or war criminal, or torturer, or murderer, or baby killer, or whatever), then the government realized that they couldn't go on...


...just something to think about for those who want the war to stop...

[Michael Costello]

49. Veterans always had a much larger enemy than hippies

It shows how warped US consciousness is that some incident where a hippie spit at a returning Vietnam veteran is the "ultimate indignity" to veterans. What a loaded crock for anyone who knows anything about veterans in the 20th century! World War I veterans marched for veteran benefits (called bonuses then) during the height of the Depression in 1932. The US army came out and was ordered to go after them with bayonets, tanks, mounted horses, the whole kit and kaboodle. At least two were killed (William Hushka and Eric Carlson), many more were shot, bayonetted and so forth. Ordered by the hero of World War II, Douglas MacArthur. Eisenhower and Patton were involved as well, although I believe they were lower level officers at the time.

Then there's the years of denial about Agent Orange, the treatment in hospitals by the VA that Ron Kovic wrote about and so on and so forth.

Also, training changed after WWII to turn US soldiers more into, well, people who would shoot to kill without hesitation. Psychological elements were not paid as much attention beforehand. This is probably effective on the battlefield, but some think has negative long-term effects. Along with other things like troops get rotated home immediately, which is kind of jarring.

[cjbuchanan]

20. This guy is an ass

Screw him.

I think a 'GI Joe' guy would be someone who drives around in a hummer but will never serve.

So p-off Mr. Gonzalez.

[VelmaD]

24. The guy had a good point but,

couldn't have worded it more poorly if he had tried.

[cjbuchanan]

27. What good point?

It seems to me that Tillman signed up because he wanted to do whatever he could to help. He served honorably in harms way. He got killed doing it.

Anything short of calling this man a hero is wrong. He had his faults I'm sure, but he died a hero. His memory does not deserve to be treated this way.

[VelmaD]

29. There are about a million things...

he could have done to help that didn't involve picking up a gun.

I did not and do not support the "war" in Afghanistan any more than the "war" in Iraq. We went over and bombed the hell out of a lot of innocent civilians there for no lasting good. The Taliban is NOT gone. They still control large swaths of Afghanistan...our guy Karzai is little more than the mayor of Kabul.

The simple fact is we started the "war" with Afghanistan. If Tillman had done the slightest bit of research he would have known that he wasn't going over there to fight terrorists. He was sent over there to secure a freakin' pipeline deal.

[DrWeird]

31. So you're calling the Iraqi insurgents heroes?

The people who are killing our troops?

If not, why not? Because they're muslim?

[against all enemies]

36. Insurgents

What is an Iraqi insurgent? Many of the "insurgents" look like children. Please don't use words choosen by Rummy to make all Iraqis seem like terrorists.

[Westegg]

34. Well, exactly. His "good point" was murdered by his words...

...If you're going to attempt to make a point via words, best you choose those words wisely Othewise, you have totally fucking failed to make your point, which is certainly the case with this guy.

[TolstoyAndy]

25. Sadly, Gonzalez is mostly correct

Tillman was tricked into believing that his service would protect "America" (if such a thing still exists).

Instead millions saw the attack on Afghanistan as USA vs Islam.
Iraq gave those millions more evidence for their views.

Tillman was obviously ignorant, plainly brainwashed. Our soldiers die for Halliburton and Bechtel - not for "freedom" (unless we mean freedom for us to loot other countries).

His sacrifice will not prevent more 9-11s: just look at today's BBC story pointing out how one Madrid 3-11 bomber was a police informant. It's governments that commit terrorism.

That doesn't at all mean he deserved to die (as insHannity will paint us as saying), just that he was mistaken, miseducated.

[the_real_38]

55. Yeah, this promotes young people....

... dying for George Bush's insane vision for world dominance.

This Gonzalez guy was dead on - we have people all over the world now, killing people every day (including women and children), torturing prisoners, while the media shoves it down the public's throat as if complicity were the only option. It's "macho, patriotic crap" just as he describes it - and the purpose is to turn America into some new military state - that's not what the f*** we stand for! Tillman should have stuck to football - he went over to the wrong game.

[stellanoir]

26. I find the synchronicity most bizarre. . .

a beloved football hero turned warrior dies in Afghanistan (a conflict from which we get no casualty figures whatsoever). A beloved cartoon character who is also a football hero turned warrior, loses a limb ( B.D. from Doonesbury ). Both happenned within 24 hours of each other. If memory serves, Trudeau writes his cartoons a week or two in advance of their publication.

Interesting too that the sentiment from a college would be so vitriolic.

It's just all so poignant.

[jmags]

44. That article truly is disgusting.

If I can recommend reading one article about the whole Tillman tragedy, and unfortunately there is not an online link to it, it is Sports Illustrated's Rick Reilly's column on it in the May 2 issue.

If you are in the grocery store, pick up the magazine and open it up to the backpage.

[Ohio Dem]

48. Yeah, that's a good article.

I tried to find a link to it, too, to post here. I can't find one. I recommend this article, though. It really puts this into perspective.

The article compares Tillman's death with that of Todd Bates, who was also killed. Here's an excerpt:

"All day, in San Jose, the parents of late NFL star Pat Tillman were watching their son get the kind of attention he would've hated: his face on CNN, teddy bear memorials, a tribute from the White House.

All day, in Bellaire, Ohio, the grandmother of former high school football star Todd Bates was living with a solitary ache she can barely describe: The boy she raised as her own came back from Iraq in a box, and nobody broke into a newscast to announce his death to the nation."

-snip-

"Both did their duty for their country, but I wonder if their country did its duty for them. Tillman died in Afghanistan, a war with no end in site and not enough troops to finish the job. Bates died in Iraq, a war that began with no just cause and continues with no just reason.

Be proud that sports produce men like this.

But I, for one, am furious that these wars keep taking them."



I recommend this article.

[bloom]

52. I think it was badly worded - but I think this was worse (posted on DU)

<snip>

"Tillman's action is closest thing to Jesus' life I have ever seen. I am honestly speechless."

Sat Apr-24-04 08:38 AM



_________

I personally think it is one of the saddest reflections on our culture that I've heard in awhile.... how modern heroism is defined...and how little it is that Jesus, in theory or otherwise, is understood.

[the_real_38]

53. Yeah, how over the top ....

... and inaccurate can you get. He was participating in a scam that Bush and Cheney are using to grease up the Military-Industrial complex. He was, as the article says, a fool.