Why is everyone so shocked?

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

About this prisoner "torture" thing (and it seems like little if any real torture went on)?

Sometimes I think we Americans have way inflated opinions of ourselves, of how good or noble we are.

Any cursory reading of US history should disabuse anyone of that notion.... we can be pretty damn nasty. I think the history of racial violence and lynching proves that, as does our treatment of the Indians, and, later, the kind of air war we waged on Japan (heck, McNamara himself, in a recent biographical film, said if we had lost WWII, Curtis LeMay and himself would be tried as war criminals).

Given past history what happened with these Iraqi prisoners seems pretty penny-ante.

So, no, I'm not "shocked". Not shocked at all.

Maybe a bit suprised at the weak command and control in that camp and lack of military discipline, but not shocked that Americans could do this.

[DrWeird]

1. Not shocked at all.

It's another My Lai.

History repeats itself. What I've got is outrage, and if you don't then shame on you.

But apparently a few ignorant people bought all the nazi propaganda bullshit about US troops being "superior" and "the good guys" and "heros."

[Minstrel Boy]

2. I'm every bit as shocked as

Claude Rains.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

3. What is your evidence that "little" if any torture went on?

Yes we have a history of barbaric behavior, but frankly, I question if those pics are the END result or were taken at the beginning. In Kosovo, women were raped.. frankly I think those pics DON'T show everything...much like America has heard nothing else about the Afghan combatants that were forced into containers that were shot through..nor have we heard anything more about mass graves that contain some of these prisoners in Afghanistan

I'm not questioning your whole post, just your contention that little if any torture took place... if it was your son or brother in those pics simulating oral sex on another male (assuming that is not an act he would eer consider doing) would it then represent torture?

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

5. just from what I heard.

The pix dont show anyone actually being physically tortured....if other things went on, well, thats different.

And Im really concerend about the role of these "contractors" in all this...which seems to be above and beyong a simple support role.

[DrWeird]

6. Have you even looked at the pictures?

There being forced to perform sexual acts.

They're hooked up to electrodes.

There's one apparently beaten to death.

That's like looking at a picture of the holocaust and saying, "oh, this doesn't prove anything, maybe those people are just sleeping."

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

13. that was supposed to be simulated...

....It said they actually forced them to bugger each other.

[DrWeird]

27. Which was simulated?

The dog attacks, the rapes, the beatings, the electrocutions, or the holocaust?

Which one do you think is simulated?

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DrWeird]

32. The one in Germany.

Because denying this is torture is like denying the holocaust. I guess those were just "simulation" gas chambers.

So you're one of these people who think oral sex isn't the real thing?

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

37. no its not.

Thats a ridiculous statement.

I never said it wasnt torture, I said the sex acts where supposed to be simulated.

As for oral sex not being the real thing, maybe you should ask Bill Clinton about that?

[DrWeird]

45. "and it seems like little if any real torture went on"

That's you're own words.

The pictures show oral sex. Is that, in your opinion, real or simulated sex?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

57. Must you drag the Clenis into this?

:eyes:

They always have to bring Clinton into everything-even torture of Iraqi prosiners by US troops!

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

67. that was sort of a throwaway remark.....

...but that "is oral sex sex?" rhetorical question did seem like a too-good-too-miss setup.


Sure, its sex!

LOL!

[doni_georgia]

Do you understand how Islam feels about homosexual sex acts?

This was the most offensive thing that could be done to these prisoners. Do you realize a women who is raped in Islam is then an outcast. Their religion is VERY explicit on these things. To even make these prisoners simulate something that so goes against their religious beliefs is psychological torture even if it isn't physical torture. Hell, I am no supporter of the homophobia and sexist nature of Islam, but to use their religious beliefs to torture them is beyond repugnant.

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

72. I agree, thats a very good point..

...that would make this pretty clearly a form of psychological torture.

I can imagine what doing something like that would have on some our own Marines, too, given how mahco they are.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

33. Do you personally attack everyone who disagrees with you?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

8. Yes the pics DO show them being physically tortured

YOu have NO idea of the extent of them, but to make people strip and engage in sexual activity simulated or otherwise is physical torture...I take offense to your statement because it is exactly the kind of attitude that has people minimize sexual assault in THIS country

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

15. oh lighten up already...

gee whiz....everyone is so PC here!

When I think of torture I think of burning people w. cigarettes, beatings, electrodes on the testicles, things like that harm the body and inflict physical pain.

Yeah, this is probably more psychological torture, expecially given how macho and mysoginistic that society is supposed to be....but I dont consider it physical torture at all.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

19. Lighten up? Lightening UP about this shit is what allows it to happen in

the first place.

Attacking me by CLAIMING I am being PC is really DEFENDING poor behavior. As I stated, you made a statement without all facts in evidence and the fact that you would MINIMIZE what has occurred gives the NEXT person the right to MINIMIZE what may occur next.

And in the future when addressing my posts..I would advise you to treat me the way you want to be treated.

Now... if we can put YOU in the same situation and YOU don't equate it with physical torture, then I will BUY your interpretation that it is NOT physical torture.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

24. Capitals were used for emphasis ..you seem to be unable to discuss

without personal attacks.

[EDT]

22. Better than being shot in the head, which is what the Iraqis do to you-

I have 2 friends over there, and am getting increasingly disgusted with how THIS gets all the complaints, and Americans are then ALL considered this bad over there, but Iraqi's shooting and Italian in the head while it's videotaped is tip toed around, la dee dah...

Anyone mad at me for posting this, what's your choice, .01% chance of being humiliated in US hands, or a bullet through your head while it's videotaped and posted for everyone in the world to watch.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

26. Seems to me to be 2 sides of the same coin

Most Iraqi's really DID think we were there to liberate them from Saddam..now here we are a year later and they still aren't working, their jobs are going to American contractors who are paid a premium to be there in order to hand over their economy to Bush's corporate cronies..hell..we could BUY the peace for a fraction of the cost in Iraq simply by EMPLOYING their population.

This did NOT have to evolve into guerilla warfare..poor planning made it both possible and probable.

[kymar57]

134. Absolutely Brilliant

I mean that sincerely.The military just put this into practice in Fallujah.We really don't want to attack so we'll appoint a general of sadamn(sp} and get him to hire the the very people who have been shooting at us to keep the peace. Really, with what we will spend on military operations in Iraq in the next 10 yrs,we could basically hire every Iraqi over,say 21,and stop the killing of our troops today.

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

28. Well, yeah, sure...

..the Iraqis have a pretty fucked-up values given the type of dictatorship they lived under for so long.

But you have to expect a bit better military discipline from our guys.

Sure, I dont expect the grunts the recite the Geneva Convention, chapter and verse, but I would expect the CO to know it, or know how to run a well-ordered POW camp.

[DrWeird]

30. Which would you prefer, being shot to death or beaten to death?

Because if you bother to look at the photos you'll notice that one has been beaten to death.

So why, in your opinion, are americans better then the Iraqis? Because we're white, or because we're christian?

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

31. Becuase we havnt fed anyone into plastic shredders yet..

....Im not sure about that beaten to death thing.

Maybe you are looking for the worst case scenario too much. Whats went down is bad enough.

[DrWeird]

36. We've got photos of Americans torturing Iraqis.

I challenge you to come up with photos of Iraqis feeding victims into plastic shredders.

And while you're at it, could you please explain why a plastic shredder (?) is worse than an attack dog?

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DrWeird]

47. You mean you don't have pictures?

You can't substantiate yourself? You lost the argument so you run away?

LOL.

[doni_georgia]

80. Yet another thing well thought out to offend Islam

Dogs are considered unclean in Islam. They were once outlawed by Islam all together, but were later allowed to be used for herding, but there are still strict rules concerning dogs. Traditional and fundamental Islam warns people against too much contact with dogs.

Having dogs attack these prisoners had more of a psychological effect than just fear. They were being bitten by UNCLEAN animals. This would be similar to forcing them to eat pork, and in some branches of Islam it is worse!

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

94. This is starting to sound really suspicious.

While we could expect some grunts to figure out that the POWs would be freaked out by similuated gay sex, the dogs being unclean is pretty obscure.

So, I wonder now about the story that Ive heard that these guys where put up to this by some "contractors", as part of an interrogation,..some pros who would know these things as a form of pyschological torture.

I think there is more going on there than meets the eye, and it is really starting to smell.

[thebigidea]

116. Yeah, its really starting to smell alright

the stink seems to be coming from your posts.

[Minstrel Boy]

88. C'mon - the imaginary plastic shredders?!!

The incubator babies of 2003!

The missing people-shredder

The horror of one of Saddam's execution methods made a powerful pro-war rallying cry - but the evidence suggests it never existed
http://www.guardian.co.uk/analysis/story/0,3604,1155399,00.html

Now that Saddam has been overthrown, can we re-visit these allegations and find out whether there is really a scrap of truth behind them?

Where is this plastic shredder, who were the witnesses, when was all of this supposed to be going on?

We've been monstrously lied to over this war - and defectors were discovered to have cynically made up a whole pile of stuff to justify the invasion.

Tom Watson, Labour MP
http://www.tom-watson.co.uk/cgi-bin/mt-comments.cgi?entry_id=272

[EDT]

34. No, if you actually BOTHERED to read my post-

You'd notice the .01% odds of this happening to you in US hands, because we are US citizens.

If you haven't noticed, being in Iraqi hands generally means 99% chance of something very bad happening.

I hope most people at this site aren't so against our people over there. They shouldn't be over there, but they are, and they're not the pieces of crap that you LOVE making them out to be!

[DrWeird]

38. Yeah, I read your post.

You just pull numbers out of thin air.

[EDT]

48. You know who you would choose as your captors-

If you choose Iraqi, you're dead, if you choose US, you've got far better odds of not being treated like a bullet stop while it's taped.

Our guys over there are not the torturous monsters you wish they were- they're US citizens who had to go over, whether they wanted to or not. Exploit away on these pics, but anyone intelligent will see right through the BS.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

58. Jessica Lynch came back as did other prisoners

America just does a better job of hiding the truth about their war atrocities..they also do a fairly good job of training others to do the dirty work as with the right wing death squads in Salvador and Nicaragua trained by the School of the Americas.

[EDT]

79. Came back after being raped among other things, proving my 99% theory.

[Desertrose]

90. Her rape was totally fabricated

try dealing with reality

[Jesus H. Christ]

99. Thus proving his 99% theory is completely off base.

Shredders, Lynch being raped, pretty soon he's going to be going off on how Saddam had all those WMDs and how he was involved in 9-11.

[EDT]

105. And you can post some MIHOP links.

[DrWeird]

127. LOL. Who said anything about MIHOP?

you're starting to slip up. You should really be more careful.

[EDT]

130. Who said anyting about WMD?

You went for the diversion.

[EDT]

104. That doesn't seem to be her opinion, but if it makes you happy.

[DrWeird]

129. Lynch denies being raped.

In fact, she was furious at the allegations that she was raped. It's really disrespectful of the troops to keep lying about them.

So how many mistakes does that make for you in this thread?

[EDT]

131. None, but a pack of lies for you.

Keep those pictures handy.

[DrWeird]

135. What are you saying? That the pictures are lying?

What, are they photoshopped?

Are you willing to admit you were wrong about Lynch being raped?

[DrWeird]

59. The photos show you're wrong.

They are torturous monsters. Not that these photos are new, Gitmo's been going on for a couple of years now and plenty of people are proud about it.

Look at Jessica Lynch. She was captured by the Iraqis, and she was treated a lot better then the Americans treat their prisoners of war. And when the Iraqis tried to return here to the Americans, the US troops shot at the ambulance and had to turn back.

Plenty of the other POWs were treated just fine by the Iraqis as well. So this 99.9% is just a bunch of garbage.

And you're right. Anyone who's intelligent can see right through that.

[EDT]

81. Keep exploiting the .01% and someone might believe you.

[Desertrose]

91. dude, you gotta quit taking the blue pills

if pictures such as these do not induce a reality check- you better take two red pills.
Seriously....

WAKE THE F UP.

[EDT]

95. Keep on exploitin'

If you do it enough, a few dimwits may believe the false reality you wish for.

[DrWeird]

92. Again with the made up numbers.

Where'd you get .01% from, subtract 99% from 100%?

[EDT]

98. I hate to correct your math mistake, but I'm tempted.

[Desertrose]

106. its your error, not his

100.00% -99.00%= 1.00 %
NOT .01%

If you can't do the correct math, I think your theory is as full of hot air as your posts.

[EDT]

115. And maybe you can spit on some US soldiers coming back.

I'm sure you'd feel all full of yourself. My friends aren't monsters over there, and most are not. It's your right to exploit to the best of your ability, but I think most people aren't that easily fooled.

[thebigidea]

118. "but I think most people aren't that easily fooled."

Welp, you prove that one wrong every time you hit "post message."

[Desertrose]

126. OK. let me explain something here

I was one of the ones who welcomed our guys back from Nam when other people were spitting on them.

and I realize its hard to imagine your friends over there in danger- so I totally understand why you are upset....

BUT...that doesn't mean all of the troops are acting with honor and respect to the people whose country WE are in....we have come to their homes carrying guns & dropping bombs- at this point the reason is not worth arguing. We are THERE.

I support our troops who are over there because they had no choice...but I will NOT respect ANYONE who treats other human beings the way these photos have shown. I remember well the stories from Nam....I lost some dear friends there...so don't get all righteous on us here....many many of us have gone through this before, which is why there is less tolerance for this behavior now.

Hating people is not an answer...whether it is our own or others. ...but to excuse this cause we don't think Americans could do this is not acceptable either. These are sick people who treat others this way....

So my friend...I suggest you are the one who may need to adjust your attitude and open your eyes and accept that not all our troops are innocent. Your theory that foreign troops are safer in US hands is not true in all cases,whether you want to believe that or not.

War is a sad sad thing...it brings out the worst or it can bring out the best...in ALL of us.

Peace

[alittlelark]

120. I was thinkin' he pulled the #'s outta his *ss.

:evilgrin:

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

40. I think there are some real loons on this site, yes.

And I have recently discovered the "ignore" function, which should be helpful in screening them out.

Yet, I think, without proper military discipline, we can devolve pretty quickly into some real nasty shits, too.

[DrWeird]

51. There is a brigadier general involved.

So it's probably a little deeper than a breakdown of discipline.

[mouse7]

73. Brass were involved in the child sex ring in Bosnia, too

The hard core 30% that support the neo-cons in anything are capable of anything. Do not be surprised of anything they do. Rape, murder, torture, child molestation, lynchings and other violence to minorites.

They can do it all. They will do it all.

[Sterling]

54. Yes there are some real loons here these days

Some of them think what the saw in those pictures is not torture. Yes it indeed takes all kinds.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jesus H. Christ]

64. What's the matter with you? Have you read the rules?

If you make a statement, and somebody asks you to back that up, you back that up with resources. You don't stick people on ignore like some fifth grader loosing a debate.

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

74. Just a few people.

Some of the posters here are a bit over the top on this. Others are OK.

[Jesus H. Christ]

96. "a bit over the top?"

No, "and it seems like little if any real torture went on" is over the top.

And you're putting everybody on ignore who disagreed with you and proved how wrong you were. That's the very definition of the word "ignorance."

You owe a lot of apologies.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

66. Anyone that tries to bring you into reality is now a "loon"?

That's very mature of you to resort to name-calling when you can't substantiate your claims. You may be able to get away with that on the other website you frequent, but not here.

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

85. bring me into reality?

I really don't see that.

My comment was that I didn't think this was 'real" torture as it wasnt physical, and had a bunch of posters jump down my throat, sayint that these prisoners where being forced to have sex with each other, which is not what the accounts said.

One poster did make a a pretty good point about how, given the culture, this could be a pretty bad form of psychological torture, which I aknowleged.

And, yes, some of the responses where pretty loony in my book, especially when someone starts TALKING TO ME IN CAPS, which is pretty well understood as the online shorthand for shouting.


....and what is "the other website you frequent"? Which one is that...tell me which website you think I frequent and I will tell you if you are correct.

[Jesus H. Christ]

100. It wasn't physical? Have you seen the photos?

What is it, virtual reality? Wtf?

[w13rd0]

50. The citation of numbers...

...when pulled out of one's ass, do not make ones argument more convincing, at least to those outside the freeper compounds. 99% chance of something bad happening in the company of Iraqis? And .01% chance in the company of US citizens? No, those "statistics" aren't pulled out of your nether regions...pfffft.

[EDT]

87. You're right, the numbers are probably far more in my favor.

[mouse7]

44. Americans with that attitude are the ones doing the torturing, EDT

I'll bet all the indicted Americans MPs are disgusted about people whining about Americans playing a little hardball in defense of democracy, too.

[EDT]

65. mouse7, I'm guessing you have no friends in the military.

They are mostly good guys who didn't know what to do with themselves after high school, have kids and family, and want to be with their family, not at war. The people in those photos are not representative of most of the military stuck over there, and I can't help but get angry when I see people accepting these photos as the standard of what the guys in service are, and passing them around as "shocking proof" of what every US service member is doing over there.

[mouse7]

83. The majority of the military is hard core right wingers

There was a thread here talking about how the right wing swing of members of the Armed Forces has affected things like training budgets, because right wingers are so much more stubborn and hard to teach. That's out of the Pentagon.

Hard Core right wingers are NOT "mostly" good guys. These are the same people who did lynchings and other hate crimes through the decades. They seem to be leaving the hollers and trailer parks more and joining the military in higher percentages.

Hard core consevatives have always been obstacles to progress, and those most likely and most capable of violence.

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

89. My experience with the military

Is that they are indeed pretty right wing, especially the officers. Not too sure about the enlisted me, like the GIs and airmen. Officers, yeah.

[EDT]

93. One of my friends is an old air defense guy, who

would always go out of his way to tell stories about all the aid convoys he watched flowing into Iraq while we considered them our friends years ago, now he's stuck over there.

I'm sure you are well intentioned, but don't realize how a thread like this strikes deep into my bone. If you had any friends in the military, you'd realize their plight, instead of villifying them.

[thebigidea]

113. A shame you couldn't "realize their plight" and join in

I'm sure you'd be a great asset.

[EDT]

117. As I said, they're not over there by choice.

And one of my two friends is definitely not a Bush supporter.

[mouse7]

Learn the difference between "majority" and "all"

I didn't say every member, I said the majority. The problem here is you not accurately reading what's been typed.

[EDT]

121. So you selectively discriminate only against the soldiers who

are right wing and over there, assuming they're all torturing Iraqis on a daily basis, loving that as their choice over wanting to be back home with their families?

As I've said, twice now, you obviously have no friends in the military.

[Sterling]

46. It makes the Iraqs look like they dont take prisoners.

While it makes us look like a bunch of sex offenders for starters. It just embarassing in a perverted ass monkey kind of way. It makes us look like loons. The Iraqs look cruel but we look cruel and deranged.

[thebigidea]

102. so how do you explain the Jessica Lynch thing, hmm?

"Anyone mad at me for posting this, what's your choice, .01% chance of being humiliated in US hands, or a bullet through your head while it's videotaped and posted for everyone in the world to watch."

Gee, I think I'll take the third choice: nursed back to health by caring doctors and given OJ until a staged rescue attempt.

[EDT]

109. Doctors are great aren't they- thank goodness our guys aren't

as monstrous with the regularity as her captors were.

[thebigidea]

111. oh, you mean the captors that saved her life?

And don't bother floating the failed "rape" canard either, that one didn't stick very well.

[EDT]

122. She said she was raped, if you don't believe her, that's your choice.

[thebigidea]

125. That is a FLAT OUT LIE. No she did not, and you can't prove that she did.

Find me one shred of evidence that says SHE said she was raped. Go on.

How dare you make up such outlandish lies in the defense of out and out TORTURE? You should be ashamed of yourself, using that poor woman as a prop in your nonsensical argument.

But something tells me you AREN'T ashamed. So go ahead and pat yourself on the back: you've done good. Well, maybe not entirely good, lets say - 99% good.

[KayLaw]

39. Okay

Give me your child. I'll have my friends strip them, make them - ummm - pleasure - my friends, hook wires to their genitals, then flat out rape them. If that's okay with you, then you are frikken' sick! Have a nice day.

[EDT]

70. I would be far more likely to do that if I was Iraqi- but you're in luck!

I'm not, so your chances of that happening are only in inflated internet exaggeration. Dream away, if that's what you want...

[w13rd0]

42. You don't consider it physical torture?

So that guy that was beat to death and wrapped in plastic via simulation? Dogs are trained to simulate attacks? Yeah, whatever...

[EDT]

76. As I said, 99% chance of that happening if you're in Iraqi hands-

.01% chance if in US hands. Keep that link handy, if you post it enough, a few half wits will start to think it's what every US soldier is doing over there.

[thebigidea]

103. 99% chance? Is that from the Bureau of Madeup Statistics?

[EDT]

110. The truth hurts. Keep exploiting the exception, and maybe

someday you'll have a valid argument.

[Desertrose]

and you are repeating yourself

with an argument that made no sense the first time you offered it...and it makes less each time you repeat it

[EDT]

124. That's ok, you have plenty of time to go back and read it till you

figure it out. I suggest printing it, that way you can even read it while you're offline.

[Desertrose]

132. already figured out there is nothing really being said

BTW...please see post #126

Its nice to come here and be all defensive of your friends.....but do you know everyone over there personally so you can vouch for you whopping 99%?
I didn't think so....

Peace

[EDT]

136. Answering my questions for me already-

No one knows everyone over there, but I don't want you spitting on my friends.

[thebigidea]

114. Try backing up your 99% figure, Mr. Truth

Despite your best intentions, the Iraqis aren't a band of bloodthirsty cartoon characters. But it sure makes it easier to kill 'em to think so, huh?

[EDT]

128. No, I don't think we should be there, but if they have come off

as comical cartoon characters to you, you haven't been paying attention to the news.

[thebigidea]

133. Ah, the "I know you are but what am I?" tactic. What a bore.

[Desertrose]

82. so if they'd do the same thing to you, you wouldn't be tortured?

LIGHTEN UP?
Are you for real??
I sure as hell hope not.

There is no way this can be excused...NO WAY.

psychological or physical ...torture is TORTURE and its all inhumane.

[Name removed]

108. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sterling]

35. Being tied up with a bag on your head is torture.

Who many people here have worn handcuffs for a long period of time. Maybe people should walk around handcuffed with a bag tied arounfd their head for a few hours.

Trust me it would be torture.

[slaveplanet]

49. your reply explains a lot

another sheep here ...asleep at the wheel again..

go back to watching your episodes of 24 and Threat matrix, and don't forget to refill your antidepressant script.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sterling]

60. Can I get on your ignore list as well.

I try to get on all ignor lists. I find people who can't make there points and have to use the ignor feature are generally not good conversation.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

69. Sniffle

You're going to take your ball and go home!

:cry: :cry: :cry:

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

78. LOL!

yes, it does sound like that, doesnt it ! :evilgrin:

[slaveplanet]

86. ignore this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1505034

[doni_georgia]

56. Do you really believe the media is showing ALL the pictures?

Please. The fact that they were posted on PORN sites should give you a clue to the nature of some. We know that at least one mercenery raped a young Iraqi male. Do you think attaching wires to a man penis and telling him if he moved he would be electrocuted wasn't REAL torture? Shit, I'm simply beyond words.

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

97. That mercenary thing is a big deal..esp. considering Bosnia...

...if you recall in Bosnia there was a similar incident of serious sexual misconduct, also by a contractor..and these contractors are outside of the usual military justice system, too...so....a very serious issue here.

[suzijane]

Bush's own behavior toward prisoners is abhorrent

Bush claims he is horrified by the pictures and behavior of the US troops at the prison, but, come on! This is the same guy who laughed and ridiculed a woman on death row that was begging for her life. Had Bush been at the prison, he would have been in the thick of the torture, he seems to need to feel powerful and humiliate others.

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

7. Carla Faye Tucker...

..well she was an axe murderer, but Bush really showed his spots with that "Please Dont Kill Me" comment.....thats one thing that really turned me off on the guy and made me realize hes pretty nasty.

[Melsky]

4. I'm not shocked about the torture

sickened, yes, but not surprised it's going on. The thing that shocks me is they were dumb enough to pose for pictures.

[suzijane]

9. Shocked that they posed for pictures?

Why? I think the American soldiers BELIEVE they are superior to those Arab ragheads. After all, they aren't Christian and probably don't even speak English. You can treat them like animals because you're a big bad a@@ 'muricun.

[IronLionZion]

10. A third of Americans were not even upset by it

from Wolf's poll: http://www.cnn.com/wolf

[cosmicdot]

16. 33% not upset

Were you upset by pictures that appear to show Iraqi detainees being abused by U.S. troops?

Yes 67% 75869 votes

No 33% 38078 votes
Total: 113947 votes

of course, "upset" being shown the pictures vs. "upset" that abuse being done is possible CNN's typical confusing things

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

that should tell you somthing right there....

.....sort of this solid 30% of meanass bastards.

[mouse7]

62. Probably 30% of troops are capable of murder and torture

That 30% that listens to Rush for all their news is the hard core neo-con supporter and they are probably pretty much capable of anything. Torturing Iraqis. Child sex slaves in Bosnia. Lynching African-Americans. Beating gays to death and leaving them on fenceposts.

Gunning down progressives in the streets for the crime of voting for a Democrat isn't that much of a stretch.

[Sterling]

68. Well they only showed some of them for starters.

They sanitized them a lot. No pistures of the loony soldiers smiling and pointing. No pictures of the little skank getting her jollys. No pictures of dog attacks or detials about dog attacks.


It us up to us to keep attention on this until the whole truth is understood.

[chelsea0011]

11. When Bush says "This is not what America is about"

all I beging to think about are injustice after injustice committed in this country. This notion that we are above it all isn't any history based in truth.

[MrBenchley]

14. It's what Chimpy's America is all about

He's the candidate for the kind of folks who hold parties outside prisons and cheer when convicts are executed...

He's the candidate for the kind of folks who gloated and delighted publicly in "Shock and Awe"

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

18. You got it...

...Bush is about the USA getting in touch with its darker side.

[MrBenchley]

23. His natural constituency

is fans of Ann Coulter and that flabby junkie Rush...the sort of folks who miss the good old days of lynching bees and McCarthyism...

[Hubert Flottz]

123. The Bush voters are the types who think the Rodney King ............

beaters of the world are "Just Doing Their Jobs"! Nazi types think brutality is simply their duty! What went on in Europe and Russia after the Germans took over those countries in the 30s and 40s, is no different than what these GIs have done in Iraq on Bush's watch! If a bunch of lying stealing thugs took over America would you fight back? Well they have so you'd better saddle up Pard!

[Blue-Jay]

12. People acting in such a disgusting manner ALWAYS shocks me.

What can I say? Maybe I'm naive, but I always expect the best from people, even though I'm usually disappointed. Still, I refuse to believe that most people are as barbaric as the criminals captured in those pictures.

So yeah. I'm shocked, indignant, outraged, saddened, etc. I don't think that you'll find too many people who can look at those pictures and say "Yeah! Haw haw haw! Lookit what we're doing to them sand niggers!" Sure, there are plenty of people who thought just that, but not a lot.

God, I hope not.

(typo edit)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

17. Allow me to explain why I am not shocked and it ties into the "bitch"

threads a few weeks back.

Look, I don't give a flying fuck what people actually say...I don't get my feelings hurt easily and words don't offend me..but we have created a society and culture that heartily accepts and defends the "language of violence." We have created a society in which the word "bitchslap" is cute no MATTER whether it means "slap your bitch" or "slap LIKE a bitch." We have created a society in which the best selling music jokes about popping a cap in yo ass and then wonder why people are so fucking barbaric.

These people were acting like little frat asswipes that think cruelty is FUN. They are symptomatic of ALL OF US...this is the American culture that we now live in.

I realize my response to you is a bit off topic, but I DO think it all ties into one another.

We don't want our fellow Americans behaving like barbarians but we wish to continue to SPEAK like barbarians and pretend it doesn't brainwash us into allowing the barbaric to persist.

(BTW..this rant isn't directed at you...your post just made it come to light for me :D )

[Bandit]

25. I agree 100% with you

We will reap what we sow. I thought you were going to say you weren't shocked because nothingshocksyouanymore :-)

[Blue-Jay]

63. It's OK, NSMA.

I knew you weren't addressing me after the first sentence.

I will say, however that equating the behaviour of the pieces of human waste responsible for the pictures that we saw and vulgar, hurtful language is a bit of a stretch. To your credit though, I suppose there IS a connection between hurtful words and hurtful deeds. They're both a result of general disregard for other people, but it's a matter of degrees.

I'd never call you a "bitch" in a million years, but I reserve the right to call Sean Hannity one. ;)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

75. No worries..and I am not intending to stretch but to draw a mosaic

in which one value being diminished really DOES lead to another. ;-)

[Bandit]

20. I am not shocked either ~ Outraged yes, disgusted yes ~ shocked no

I know all too well the barbarity and brutality of Americans. Especially considering who our Leaders currently are. Shocked no but disturbed immensely yes.

[Steely_Dan]

43. American Indians

I remember being told once that our first use of "biological" weapons was against Native Americans.

Apparently, the US government had distributed blankets to the Blackfoot tribe so they could stay warm during the winter months. The blankets were infested with Small Pox.

-P

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

61. The story I heard

...was actually much earlier...that the British (or was it colonial militia?) at Fort Pitt had done the same thing. So I wonder if this is either an urban legend, or things that where sort of common knowlege and done repeatedly.

The verified storys are bad enough, like the California settlers in places like Oroville and Humboldt county engaging in "Indian hunts"..hunting down Indians w dogs (including woman and children) for sport.

[Junkdrawer]

53. Would you be shocked if they killed the prisoners in a cover-up?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1504687

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

71. It's a really poor debate tactic to put everyone who disagree with you on

ignore.

You made a careless statement by claiming that a picture that shows Muslim males being engaged in acts of simulated sex is NOT torture.

You made a careless statement when you claimed a person with electrodes attached to them and a bag over their head standing on a box and being threatened with electrocution was NOT torture.

You made a careless statement by not knowing all facts in evidence, and claiming this did not represent torture as you have no idea whether in fact they WERE shocked, whether or not they WERE forced to perform sex acts and whether or not they were in fact sleep deprived when these pictures were taken.

Please try to have your facts straight before making careless statements in the future and you won't have such a large ignore list.

BTW...you may wish to speak to American POW's that returned from Viet Nam. Sensory deprivation IS physical torture.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

77. It's the" take my ball and go home" debate tactic

:eyes:

[Junkdrawer]

107. Let me get this straight...

I'll state this carefully. A poster comes here and makes statements that one would normally associate with FreeRepublic.com, and then, when challenged by long time moderate DU members, puts said members on Ignore?

How far we have truly come.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

112. It's his loss,not mine.

[dudeness]

84. I am absolutely disgusted...

in the race to secure oil fields we have forgotten to teach our soldiers the most basic human rights..but then again how do you teach people to kill and at the same time respect humanity?..the whole thing is clusterfuck and now the Brits are accused of the same outrageous behaviour..

[Fleshdancer]

101. Not so much "shocked" as embarrassed and angry

I never once fooled myself into believing that torture never occurs, but the humiliating sexual poses and pointing at penises is just SO CHILDISH. Then there's the obvious argument that if we can sit and judge/condemn the atrocities created by other countries in time of war, then we better damn well expect not to act like that ourselves.

I don't know about you, but having a military that includes men and women who find humor in laughing at genitalia and taking photos of it to pass around to friends doesn't make me feel all that safe.

Now my obvious disclaimer is that I know full and well that there are many many many service women and men who would never do something like this. My brother is one of them so I'm not interested in bashing the entire military.

I do have a problem knowing that there are definitely some members of the military that have the mental and emotional capacity of a 3rd grade child(no offense to 3rd graders of course). We spend trillions of our tax dollars on the military and yet some of these people act like characters from Lord of the Flies...only taller.

[supernova]

119. Not surprised.. sadly.... and very dissapointed

Let's get one thing straight: Yes, it is torture.

Psychological or physical, torture is torture. And we cannot condone it. All parties involved need to be courtmartialed and dishonorably discharged at the very least. I'd like to see them behind bars too.

To not followup with swift discipline on the perpetrators now is to invite worse crimes by others in the coming months and years. :scared: God only knows what kind of mayhem is going on at Guantanamo. :scared:

[Moderator]

137. Locking - this thread has degenerated into personal attacks

DU moderator