Do some of you still have doubts about Kerry?

[Cascadian]

I do.

I am still planning to vote for Kerry however I cannot help feel very reluctant to do so and yet I feel that I have to considering how high the stakes are in the future of the world.

I am troubled by his back-tracking on his anti-Vietnam war activism . What does he have to be ashamed of? Many people were against the war in Vietnam. I am also troubled by his lack of resolve to the Iraq situation. It appears to me that Kerry would continue keeping our men and women in Iraq while the situation continues to get worse. Bush and the Karl Rove spin machine is working overtime. I will never buy the fact that you must play towards the center to get votes. That's playing soft. And with Bush's constant attacks, I cannot understand why Kerry does not apply more fight to his rhetoric. Look at the polls! Bush is already pushing up in spite of Bush's recent blunders. I seriously think if Howard Dean were the front runner today, Dean would not put up with the crap Bushco is throwing out.

This may well be a very very close election. If Kerry does get the presidency, it won't be because he beat Bush. It will be Bush that beats Bush, but I get a strange feeling that there is going to be an October surprise or Kerry will be so softened by the Karl Rove spin machine that it won't matter anymore.

I will not be pigeon-holed by people who accuse me not going along with Kerry and marching in lock-step. To do that would be just like being a Republican. I still have my doubts and frankly I think the Democrats are making a big mistake in choosing Kerry but I will hold my breath and vote for him.

John

[skooooo]

1. no

[drfemoe]

2. I do ..

I was a hard core Deaniac, and yet at times I had doubts about him!

I think it is irresponsible to blindly follow, promote, or otherwise worship any human being (or myth). I try not to be irresponsible.

That is not to say Kerry isn't worth voting for. He IS. Now, if he is elected, and just adopts the PNAC gang/ideology into his administration ... all bets are off.

Life is full of risks and gambles. Democratic Kerry is a MUCH better bet at this stage of the game. We may be leery of the life boat's seaworthiness, but the ship is sinking FOR SURE. I'll take my chances in the lifeboat.

[really-looney]

116. http://www.johnkerryisadouchebagbutimvotingforhimanyway.com/

Let me take a shot at this, I am not one of those smart guy liberals, just a lunch -pail liberal, I live in a red state and have never voted Republican, I drive American cars(Fords off the UAW list), I work two jobs my wife works one, I do not have a college degree, I did attend a community college but with two kids and two jobs I stopped going. I don't really think of myself as a smart guy but......

Even I know there are two choices, Kerry and Bush all the rest are bullshit feel good choices but they don't really matter. I say again two choices Kerry or the shit for brains "MORAN" who currently resides at 1600. Lifeboat, I would jump on a piece of driftwood at this point. John Kerry is so much better than driftwood or a "lifeboat". He is the real deal

For those smart guys who need an excuse to do the right thing check out http://www.johnkerryisadouchebagbutimvotingforhimanyway.com/

[NewYorkerfromMass]

161. Lifeboat? "I would jump on a piece of driftwood"

excellent rebuttal. You rock. I love that site. "We are so fucked..."

[charlie]

3. I do

But you oughta make up your mind -- assert your independence from lock-step partisanship or hector us into unalloyed fealty. One or the other, the dissonance is jarring.

[skooooo]

30. do as you wish

i am a democrat partisan, through and through, and i have no doubts about that.

[charlie]

33. That's swell

Then you and I will be voting for the same guy in November.

[OKNancy]

4. No doubts

You have a right to express your opinion, and so do I. These kinds of posts are getting old. Same old stuff...over and over. Your guy lost. Kerry will get the nomination fair and square, but thanks anyway for your vote for the best person to change the course of history and smash the evil Bush empire. It's appreciated.

------------------------------
"Bush has made such a mess of this that there's not much they can do," Dean said in a telephone interview with The Chronicle. "There are no real options until we get a new president. So it's sort of a question that doesn't have an answer."

[Cascadian]

83. I will keep raising doubts.

Regardless if people like it or not. You cannot be in denial of the fact that Kerry gave in and is starting to backtrack on his past. Not cool in my book. He needs to just stick up for himself and get tough.


John

[Jacobin]

5. I agree with that

Kerry is letting Bush* beat himself....if in fact that happens.

He's quite uninspiring to me. And I worry that he will escalate IraqNam, as LBJ did. More troops will mean more targets and more disaster, even though many generals are calling for it. They called for it in Vietnam, too.

I'm afraid he's gonna try to do IraqNam "right" and get us further into this quagmire. There is NO WAY to "do" IraqNam right, unless we withdraw. They hate us and for good reason. "Internationalizing" IraqNam is a joke. NO ONE will go into that shit hole after we've so completely forked that country up.

All that said, I will force myself into the voting booth and pull the lever for Kerry, biting my lip and kicking and screaming with my conscience because if Smirk is re-selected, more silly illegal wars will surely follow and the domestic agenda will become totally nazified.

[drumwolf]

12. "Voting your conscience"

biting my lip and kicking and screaming with my conscience because if Smirk is re-selected, more silly illegal wars will surely follow and the domestic agenda will become totally nazified.

You know, people seem to equate "voting your conscience" with voting third-party, and that's getting on my nerves a bit.

No, Kerry's not a particularly good candidate, but I'm voting for him with a clear conscience. Bush has been such a disaster that I couldn't in good conscience not vote ABB. And for better or worse, the ABB candidate is Kerry.

I voted for Nader and the Greens in 1996 and 2000 in overwhelmingly blue states where I knew I had the luxury of doing so, and I probably could do so again this year if I really wanted to. But I loathe * so much such that I could be in Texas or Alabama -- overwhelmingly red states where voting for Nader is guaranteed not to hurt Kerry -- and I'd still vote for Kerry for no other reason than to vote AGAINST Bush.

[Jacobin]

63. Did you read my post?

I said I was reluctantly voting for Kerry because the thought of Smirk continuing in office is simply unacceptable. What is not clear about that?

Maybe it's Kerry supporters like you, who don't bother to read, but simply come out swinging at anyone who suggests Kerry is not great, who are causing some of the problem.

[drumwolf]

90. Look who's calling the kettle black. Did you read MY posts here?

If you did, you'd know that I'm not a "Kerry supporter," I'm an "Anybody But Bush" supporter. I made other posts on this thread that made it quite clear that I am actually one of those "anyone who suggests Kerry is not great."

I've already expressed doubts about Kerry elsewhere in this thread. I even said, "If we had a Republican opponent who was relatively sane, I'd vote Green," and for that I got a flame that was equally as childish as yours was.

[Tina H]

73. alternative suggestion:

I think a better the fairest way to describe the two opposing positions is:

voting to try to influence the outcome of the election (Kerry)

or

voting for the candidate who best reflects your political views (Kerry for some; other, more left-leaning candidates for others).

Framing the two positions in this way does not settle the question of which strategy is "better," but it does suggest the reasoning behind these two opposing voting strategies.

[G_j]

19. I maybe wrong but

I think I heard somebody on NPR say this morning that 50% of Americans now may want to get out of Iraq soon. If I heard this correctly, that would mean there has been a major shift. If things get worse including what the torture investigations may reveal,
Kerry's plan on sticking it out may not go over as well as some think.
If anyone knows of the poll NPR was referring to, I'd welcome more info.

[gate of the sun]

126. I think we are allready seeing the backlash with Missouri and

I think it may grow. Kerry seems so much the same as bush. I know I know he says thinks a bit differently but he's not coming out strong enough to give the swing voters a real "reason" to vote for him. Besides sucking up to Israel.

[The Magistrate]

135. There Is A Winner, Ma'am

Attacking Israel is the royal road to the White House, and no mistake....

"Can't nobody here play this game?"

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[gate of the sun]

145. "Attacking Israel is the royal road to the White House"?

I don't get it.....sir?

[Cascadian]

153. What are you talking about my good sir?

May you please elaborate on what that is suppose to mean?


John

[freetobegay]

6. No.

[eileen from OH]

7. I have no doubt that I'll vote for him

I do have doubts that he's the best candidate we could have put forth.

I have no doubt that he CAN win.

I do have doubts about his campaign strategy and organization.

eileen from OH

[Tellurian]

24. kick~

[greatauntoftriplets]

8. You are not alone,

because you sound like me.

[Andy_Stephenson]

137. Ditto here

I am not a Kerry Fan...never have been never will.

[jonnyblitz]

9. Not until I read that lame book he wrote.

The one that seems like Dick Morris ghost wrote. But yes I will vote for him. It would be nice to be excited about somebody for a change.

[OKNancy]

10. Which book would that be

Tour of Duty?
or the one written in 1998 about international crime?

[OKNancy]

14. I'd still like to know which book

Oh btw...Kerry didn't write Tour of Duty...Doug Brinkley did.

[drumwolf]

11. Yes, I do.

I will vote for Kerry and you should too, but only because it is absolutely imperative to get Bush out. If our Republican opponent was a relatively sane person (like McCain, Hagel, Schwarzenegger, Pataki), I would be voting for the Green Party again this year.

Kerry was never my first choice. I was a Dean supporter and then after he dropped out I turned to Edwards. I would have LOVED to see a Dean/Edwards ticket, although if Kerry shows some sense I'll gladly settle for Kerry/Edwards. :D

And I absolutely agree 100% that if we see a President Kerry in 2005, it will be because Bush beat himself, not because Kerry beat Bush.

I know there are genuine Kerry supporters who have true faith in the guy and are voting as much FOR Kerry as AGAINST Bush. I invite all of them to please, PLEASE explain to me that I'm wrong.

[sadiesworld]

70. "If our Republican opponent was...Schwarzenegger...I would be voting

for the Green Party again this year.

WHO ARE YOU?

[drumwolf]

95. I'm a Freeper infiltrator. why do you ask?</sarcasm>

On the same thread I've had one person hint that I'm a Freeper/Rethug enabler and another person say to me, "Maybe it's Kerry supporters like you, who don't bother to read, but simply come out swinging at anyone who suggests Kerry is not great, who are causing some of the problem." Aren't flames wonderful?

And as a California resident, I stand by including Arnold in my list of "relatively sane" Republicans. I don't like a lot of the things he's done as far as decimating California's services is concerned, but I think he's no worse than any other GOP gov would be in his situation (i.e. having to deal with an enormous budget crisis and a stubborn Republican constituency that would threaten to recall him if he even so much as strung the words "tax" and "increase" together).

[sadiesworld]

103. He is decimating CA's social services but would be an acceptable

alternative to JK at the nat'l level?

[drumwolf]

105. did you not read what i said? i'll say it once again.....

he's no worse than any other GOP gov would be in his particular situation. California's liberal reputation notwithstanding, my state has a very visible wingnut constituency that is rabidly anti-tax, (especially in Orange County and San Diego). They would recall him in a heartbeat if he tried to keep paying for social services with a tax increase.

[sadiesworld]

108. You said that if Kerry's opponent was Schwarzenneger you would

vote Green. In this 50-50 nation that's a vote for the terminator to me. Yes, I heard what you said. Another Bush term would be bad enough to vote dem, a terminator presidency wouldn't be.

[vetwife]

115. Will be not May be the last election if we don't

Bush is dangerous. If he chooses Gephardt. He has a reason.
I can think of several. One Gephardt has a homesexual child and proud not hiding like doofus Cheney. Gephardt is from the midwest and he needs to carry that part of the country. Gephardt is a screamer like Miserable Failure and a Veep is supposed to be the hollerer for the Prez candidate. Gephardt is an insider but has not waffled on votes . And was speaker of the house and could possibly carry some of the south since he has ties in Atlanta.
This is why he is considering Gephardt. We are looking at a person who can run on his record with Clinton as president for a long period of time. and Gephardt can do that. We have no choice really unless you want Monkeyboy in there forever and his entire dynasty family ! He needs some fire in the belly and Dean is hated too much and could lose the middle moderate dems. I love Dean but I am left of center not center. I don't trust Edwards. But if he picked mickey Mouse I would still vote Kerry.

[Andy_Stephenson]

158. Gephardt is another enabler

"has not waffled on votes ."

You are right! War, Patriot Act and Homeland Security...Just like John! A perfect match. Together they will give us Progressive Internationalism. A kinder gentler PNAC.

[Deja Q]

13. Possibly...

http://www.issues2000.org/Senate/John_Kerry.htm

http://www.time.com/time/election2004/candidates/

They speak for themselves.

Kerry, regardless, is infinitely better than *.

[robbedvoter]

15. He's not Bush. Beyond that, nothing is certain

[comradebillyboy]

16. kerry is disappointing but

i am abb.

[Lefty48197]

17. Watch Kerry's 1971 Senate testimony

and then tell me that you're not sold on John Kerry.

[goobergunch]

50. I wish the 1971 Kerry was running for President

I would support him without hesitation.

Sadly, however, the presumptive Democratic nominee is the 2004 Kerry.

[Amerpie]

66. Is this the testimony

that he is trying to distance himself from now? On March 20, 2004 when over a million people world wide were in the streets protesting the war in Iraq, Kerry was snow-boarding with his valet. If he could ask of Iraq "who will be the last person to die for a mistake", then and only then could I get passionate about him.

Yeah, I'll vote for him but i won't pretend to like it.

[Carolina]

111. that's the problem

why can't Kerry speak with the same intensity and passion NOW. The contrast is so striking; he knew where he stood, he had conviction that shined and was so impressive.

Now :shrug: He doesn't convey the conviction and passion; his statements seem measured. He doesn't move and inspire...

Before I get flamed, let me be clear that he has my vote absolutely, unequivocally, wholeheartedly because I loathe Bush.

But at heart, I'm still a Wes Clark Democrat.

[mmonk]

18. only a little

and I'm not influenced by republican garbage. If he picks Edwards, I'll wonder what our position in the world will be. Edwards, according to the News and Observer this morning wants to create a new intelligence agency (and of course he was for the war unapologetically). Also, giving tacit approval to bush and Sharon's unilateral plan to deal Palestinian land without their input bothers me. Seems even if you agree somewhat with the plan, you don't leave them out of the process about their future. Also, too many democrats seem to want confrontation with Syria. To me, our country is out of control already, and the major difference between the majority of repubs and the majority of dems is a matter of degree. Sorry I feel that way. I still plan to vote democratic accross the board.

[Ardee]

20. Anyone who doesnt doubt is a fanatic

Those who think their opinions cast in stone and immutable have serious problems. That is true whether they are member of the Bush administration or members of DU.

Those who think that it is an individual who has created the mess that is the US domestic and foreign policies are as deluded as those who think that changing the figurehead in the WH will alter our course of action. It is the system that is corrupt and in need of overhaul and installing a differing president will change things not at all. Especially considering the increasing number of Kerry statements that parallel Bush policies and agendas.

[diamond14]

21. nice post to get bush* re-selected....seems that many are working

hard here to get the DRAFT back in and keep the reTHUGlicans in charge....

[drfemoe]

55. manipulate much?

IMO it's posts like THESE ^^ which jeopardize our unity MUCH MORE than honest people discussing their honest fears.

Working to get whoosh* re-selected is absolutely against DU membership guidelines. If you think there is enough evidence to support that allegation, take it up with Admin. Don't slander DU members because they want to work through their feelings at the ONLY forum set up with the express purpose of deposing the impostor.

[Cascadian]

82. The truth hurts.

Like I said if I were to just go along with program and be in lock-step with Kerry, then my own principles would be compromised. To just follow blindly to Kerry is to become no different than the Republicans. Let's just face it. Kerry is not going to beat Bush because he is the "Real Deal" or he sticks to his guns which he doesn't (votes for Patriot Act and Iraq Invasion). It is because Bush was the one that created this mess in the first place. Bush will beat Bush. And just because I raise questions about Kerry DOES NOT make me pro-Bush or one who follows the Republican propaganda. These are legitimate and yes left-wing inspired questions that I raise.

If some of you would wake up and start asking questions, the Democratic Party would be better off for it. Instead of letting spineless jellyfish run the party to the ground like they have been. I am sorry but it's true.


John

[The Magistrate]

98. It Is Beside The Point, Sir

The leading factor that sways those persons not yet committed to one candidate or the other in the general election, who comprise the ever elusive "middle", is the fervor and single-minded clarity of a candidate's supporters. Those who express doubts about their cause will not gain adherents, but rather will turn them away, and hence drive them to the other camp.

People who are too principled to do what it takes to secure victory are a valuable asset to the enemy's campaign....

"People getting their fundamental interest wrong is what American political lihe is all about."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Tina H]

101. You don't seem to have doubts

yet your post (and other similar posts by others) tends to decrease my respect for the Democratic Party.

You might want to rethink your belief that a high level of rigidity increases a political party's appeal. I know it looked that way when Bush was rigid and the popularity of the Republicans increased. However, I think that had more to do with shock over 9/11 than with Bush's absolute refusal to critically discuss and think about his positions. Bush hasn't lost his rigidity, but he is finally losing popularity, thankfully.

[The Magistrate]

109. Once A Course Of Action Is Decided On, Ma'am

Doubt is of no further use. What the line ought to be should certainly be debated; once that debate has led to a majority consensus, all ought to support it, whether or not it is precisely to their liking.

How many people have you ever won over to your view by expressing doubts over whether it was the correct one? That is simply not how people are moved, whether individually, or in the mass.

"Revolution is not a tea party."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Tina H]

139. If rigidity equals victory

Then Bush will clearly win the election. He has had 3 years to establish himself as a very rigid person and he has done an excellent job at this.

There is no way that Kerry can compete if winning people over is just a matter of being rigid. BTW, so far the Bush campaign is trying to say that rigidity is the most important thing. That is why its main criticism of Kerry is that he "flip-flops." Your post falls into a trap by buying into this Bush campaign idea that rigidity and refusal to adjust to changing circumstances is a wonderful quality in a leader.

[The Magistrate]

144. You Rather Like That Word, Ma'am, It Seems

You do not seem to display much understanding of how people are moved in the mass, however.

"People who like sausages and laws should never watch either being made."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Tina H]

150. yeah,

I don't respond well to posts that regard me as a bit of "mass" to be "moved." I prefer to think of myself as a thinking person to be persuaded.

[sangh0]

162. You are the rigid one

We had primaries. Millions of similarly minded folks got together and picked the candidate they thought was the best choice. Unfortunately, it wasn't YOUR candidate, and your rigidity prevents you from respecting the choice that millions of people who belong to the same political organization that you do made.

So, to show your displeasure, you'll continue to voice your doubts. So disregard the "masses". They're are only the ones who can take Bush* out of the White House.

Think only about the individual that YOU are. *THAT's* what politics is about, right? "YOU"

I prefer to think of myself as a thinking person to be persuaded.

We have a nominee.

[Tina H]

172. If my political organization just regards me . . .

as a bit of mass who is expected to conform to the majority without expressing questions and doubts, then maybe I am in the wrong political organization.

Fortunately, I do not rely believe that reply #162 accurately represents what the Democratic Party is all about.

[Sparkly]

110. The undoubting belief that we can't afford 4 more years

of the Chimp is being "rigid?"

Then call me rigid.

[Tina H]

131. Your rigidity on that particular point is understandable.

The idea that Kerry can be as centrist, simply because he is not Bush, is rigid in the bad way.

I sure hope that Kerry and most people on this board would have doubts about Kerry's Pat Act and Iraq War votes at this point. I don't think there is anything wrong with Kerry or anyone else discussing these doubts. Speaking for myself, I would be more comfortable with Kerry if he did.

You have already decided to vote for Kerry no matter what, so he doesn't need to worry about keeping you happy. It is the undecideds that Kerry needs to win. Speaking for myself, you are not going to win me over if you are rigid in the bad way discussed in the previous 2 paragraphs.

[The Magistrate]

138. So In Other Words, Ma'am

You would prefer to reward the criminal clique who concieved, pressed, and executed the invasion of Iraq, as a fitting punishment for a Senator who did not oppose it as strenuously as you....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Tina H]

146. I am not going to vote for Bush

I will either vote for the candidate who is most closely aligned with my political views or I will vote for the least objectionable candidate who can win. I haven't decided yet -- it is a difficult decision for me.

I am more inclined to vote for Kerry if he expresses some doubt about his Pat Act and Iraq war votes. Therefore, if Kerry wants to avoid rewarding the criminal clique, he would do well to express these doubts in some way because then he would probably get my vote.

[diamond14]

102. absolutely true...these naysayers are a "valuable asset" to bush*

IMO, they know it too....no sincerity....no shame to come here and work for bush* and his minions...

they do not want victory for Kerry...they want bush* and their actions prove it....as you note, Magistrate, they are turning many people away from Kerry and driving them to bush*...it's deliberate...


for those who want Kerry...please help the campaign...STAND UP now, and do a 'little bit' of work right now tonight to help Kerry win, and take back America...it's so easy...just open this link
www.JohnKerry.com

[Cascadian]

107. What a crock.

The only people in the Democratic Party who are catering to Bush and buying Bush cool aid are those who supported his half-baked adventurism in to Iraq. No too mention the shredding of our personal freedoms. I speak with my own voice.



JOHN

[Sparkly]

114. Working to defeat Bush is catering to Bush?

Or is there someone else you're referring to as having "supported" Bush's Iraq invasion and "shredding of our personal freedoms?" Because if you're talking about Kerry and his supporters, I'd like to know either your own viable proposal for defeating the Chimp, or your reasons for thinking it doesn't matter.

[Cascadian]

106. Sorry but I will never go to the other camp. I am no Repub.

eom


John

[The Magistrate]

113. No One Is Suggesting That, Sir

What is being said is that a course of criticizing and spreading doubts about the Democratic Party's candidate for President will tend to benefit the Republicans, and thus materially assist the criminals of the '00 Coup in their attempt to continue in the offices they have usurped.

"My god, man, slap yourself and think!"

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Cascadian]

120. Would you rather have me just sit in a corner and shut up then?

eom


John

[diamond14]

122. yes !

:nopity:

[Cascadian]

123. Sorry. No can do!

I will continue to speak up. Frankly I do not care what you or anybody else thinks. I know it's arrogant of me to say it but I will say it. I stand my ground.


John

[Sparkly]

127. Gee, how brave and effective of you.

As I asked in #117, to what effect are you "speaking up" or "standing ground?" How is complaining, criticizing, whining and otherwise Expressing Disagreement As Is Your Right productive in any way? Just because it makes you feel better? Or because you hope the Kerry campaign is reading and the candidate will change his stances (or go back in time and change his votes) as a result? Or because you hope others will see the light and feel equally Independent-Mindedly Disenchanted with Kerry for not being everyone's or anyone's ideal? What "ground" are you standing?

[gate of the sun]

130. I personally am happy to see

people speaking up and standing up for what is right even if it doesn't include Kerry. Sorry, I think us who don't like Kerry like Bush even less are not willing to settle for a democratic nominee in the likeness of bush. I'm not saying Kerry is bush I'm saying he is not different enough. He is playing "politics" so safely he isn't going to be able to get those votes from those who are against the war that aren't radical left. As time progresses and the war becomes more unpopular what is he going to do then? What is he really going to do about restoring jobs to this country. Plans for the environment must be speed ed up now not in 10 years or 5.

Kerry impresses me not at all. I'm sorry I have to vote for him to oust bush. I hope for a better tomorrow and I do not believe it will be coming from Kerry. To say and accuse people of not like Kerry to be in bush's court is a lie and manipulating the reality. Those on this board who don't like Kerry , probably dislike bush more.....than those who like Kerry. It is an unacceptable reality that we have to deal with. It's not just a team player mentality for me. It's about the future. Which is why I am going to vote for Kerry but I do not believe that he is going to make the changes that need to happen to end the invasion of Iraq and to free us from corporate America.

[Sparkly]

134. So is that a reason #1?

It makes you feel better?

[gate of the sun]

142. I don't understand your post.

n/t

[Sparkly]

147. I'm looking for the reasons

for this "standing up" -- what is the effect of it? I mentioned some reasons in #127 above, and #117 (I think) below.

[Cascadian]

136. I couldn't have said it better myself.

You are so right. I hate Bush more than I hate Kerry and it irks me to see Kerry trying to morph into Bush Lite. This will actually hurt us more than help us. Sadly, not many people see this. I feel the same way as you do and I highly resent the fact I have to defend myself on this board all because I will not go along and support Kerry 1000%. Thank you for echoing my statements.


John

[The Magistrate]

141. What You Believe, Ma'am, Does Not Matter

How you vote does....

Welcome aboard.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[gate of the sun]

148. It matters to me

and I am not looking forward to the future. Mr. Magistrate.

[Sparkly]

149. Thank you!

Whew!

[The Magistrate]

128. My Preference, Sir

Would be for a display of maturity and self-discipline, that maintained a focus on what has to be done to succeed....

"Can't nobody here play this game?"

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Cascadian]

151. If not voicing your opinion is your idea of maturity and self-discipline..

then I would rather stay a child and keep my self respect. I have a right to voice my opinion as much as you do.

John

[The Magistrate]

165. It Is A High Form Of Self-Indulgence, Sir

To place such value on self-image....

"Saints should be judged guilty till proved innocent."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Cascadian]

152. And another thing....

If you think my voicing my own opinions is not helping, then wait if Kerry loses. On that night if it happens, you won't hear the end of it from me. I will be complaining like crazy. Just warning you.


John

[Ardee]

160. I fail to understandyour point here

How does an undecided voter bcome a commited one? I doubt it is by reading or listening to those who support one candidate or another as much as it is by listening to the candidate and his party's rhetoric and reaching conclusions and decisions.

here are some rather convoluted ways to tell folks that real debate and discussion is not acceptable, yours is just another such.

[The Magistrate]

168. Elections, Sir

Are exercises in cultivating group identity. The quality of the shouts and applause that greets a candidate's words matters much more than their content. Persons who place the highest value on outsider status will find the process remains a puzzle....

"Kill one, warn one hundred."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Ardee]

174. what you suggest is simply unbelievable and unrealistic

You imply that people will be persuaded for whom to vote by the amount of cheers they hear for the candidate and conversely will be
dissuaded from voting by boos. Well all I can say to that is simply..."boo".

80% of voters, so we are told, always vote for the same party regardless of the candidate while 20 percent vote sometimes GOP and sometimes Dem, remember the 13% of democrats who voted for Bush. I would like to think that those who choose a candidate do so on a more substantive footing than simply listening to the audience reactions, what an imagination you have! I would hope that a significant portion of an undecided electorate listens to the damn candidate rather than their fellow voters reaction to what that candidate says.You seem to believe the worst of people.

Oh, by the by, that sig line about kill one warn a hundred makes you appear foolish, you might consider dropping it.

[drfemoe]

99. hmmm

Actually I was referring to post #21 (above mine ^^), and validating your freedom to voice your honest doubts.

People who have no doubts about anything (know-it-alls) are in a state of developing or arrested maturation. It is a phase that late teens and early 20 year olds go through. It is part and parcel of fanaticism, which is never a healthy thing.

I'm not sure why you didn't understand my post. Sorry if I didn't make myself clear.
OTOH, let's not allow ourselves to be trapped into the same habits the "thought stoppers" practice.

[Guaranteed]

22. We're Democrats!

Of course we're ashamed! That's what we do!

It's our DESTINY to be ashamed of everything. We dare not stand up and defend ourselves, because that would be "playing politics" or unpatriotic. So we subjugate, disrespect and lie to ourselves.

[Tellurian]

23. Everyone seems to think this is just an ordinary election...It's not!

We have to look at the Big picture and get this straight once and for all. What is at stake here for any presidential candidate.

What does Bush beat Bush mean? Have you forgotten so soon, what Bush has done to get where he is today?

There has never been a presidential candidate that has had to face the most malevolent, corrupt, no holds barred, incumbent unelected presidential rival in US history. A rival that had the audacity and resources to steal an election from duly elected contender, Al Gore, who won the popular vote by over half a million votes.

Seated by the SCOTUS, this resident's tenure is in jeopardy once again because of inconvenient Constitutional rules which state a presidents term will not exceed 4 years.

Bush is faced with the real possibility of losing another election.

What do you think would be the ground rules for winning of this nefarious cabal? Is there any such thing as ground rules with this White House? We've witnessed the contempt they feel for the American people. They consistently refuse to follow any rules set up by the Constitution for checks and balances in our government. They have created a government of SECRECY... all on their own without the consent of the people.

Over seven hundred troops killed in Iraq so far and over 3500 troops maimed for life and struggling for decent medical treatment and health care. Heck, little three and four year old children can't even have an Easter Egg Roll on the White House lawn anymore without a weapons check by WH security.

I, like you, was inspired by Dean's words during the primaries and think he unwittingly became the firebrand of the democratic party setting us apart from the Republicans. Dean gave us hope by telling it like it is. I think his ideas and input are invaluable to Kerry's campaign and it would behoove Kerry to seek him out as a spokesperson and allow Dean to absorb and dispel some of the invective being flung about by the Bush attack machine and partisan media pundits.

No one is asking you to march in lockstep. Just try to remember the past is the best predictor of the future. If you think Bush will beat Bush and Kerry not win for waging a War for our Freedom and restoring our American way of life, then you are in denial of the veracity of Bush's resolve to win anyway he can to maintain the presidency.

Does anyone have any doubt, John Kerry has volunteered to once again put his life on the line for us?

Is everyone forgetting what was done to the Kennedys?

I haven't. I think over the long haul, Kerry, with his background as a prosecutor, his expertise as a senator capable of amicable diplomacy, his courageous veterans record and his life long contacts is the man above all, that is the hope for our future.

[gate of the sun]

124. I agree in many ways but

I am not happy with Kerry.

[bigtree]

25. I think, to date, most folks see Kerry through the lens of a biased media

Some of those who didn't support him from the start haven't bothered to dig and discover what he actually stands for and are loath to promote the finer character that is found underneath all of the ignorant bashing.

Bush is a mistake. John Kerry is the right answer.

[Tellurian]

26. he's shone himself to walk softly and carry a big stick!

especially when he ruffled Nixon's feathers during the hearings...

[randr]

27. I have recently developed serious doubts about Kerry

I will now only vote for him if he comes out with a statement against this "war", apologizes for voting for it, and lays out a plan to deal with the rest of the mess in the mideast.
I am sure he can find a few real Americans who will stand with him, like Howard Dean, for instance!

[Tellurian]

28. No wonder you have serious doubts...try to get your facts straight..

...Kerry deplores the war.

...Kerry doesn't need to apologize.

...It quite apparent to even little school children, Bush lied to us.

...Dean has already announced his support for Kerry.

[randr]

29. Every time I hear Kerry he is spouting the very same

rhetoric as the administration. He thinks we need to stay the course and "fix" Iraq! This is bullshit and I believe he only states this so he won't be accused of waffleing again. Real leaders admit their mistakes and correct their pathes.
The only support our troops need is action to bring them home!

[Tellurian]

37. stay tuned- and bring a pad and pencil with you so you won't forget or

be so easily confused at what was said several weeks ago and update yourself on the whys and wherefores for the tailoring of the message.

The ground is shifting daily as more of the WH mismanagement of the War becomes more apparent.

[randr]

40. And this is his response?

http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/iraq

[The Magistrate]

43. It Never Ceases To Amaze Me, Sir

When people propose to punish a figure for insufficient opposition to a policy they disagree with, by proposing a course of action most likely to benefit the figure who conceived, sold, and executed that policy they disagree with....

"Can't nobody here play this game?"

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[randr]

45. What good would Kerry be if he follows the same policy?

I hate * and gang as much as anyone. I also have a great love of my country and I am begining to get the sense that many of us are willing to sell our values out just to get * out.
Kerry is going to have to show some balls before he gets my vote.

[The Magistrate]

48. Two Small Points, Sir

First, there is the value of public rebuke: ignominious defeat of the present administration will be read as a rejection of the policy of invading Iraq, and the incompetence and fecklessness with which it was carried out, and this will stand as a warning that such foreign adventuring is not the sovereign road to popularity those reptiles thought it was two years ago.

Second, it is disingenuous to say Sen. Kerry follows the same policy. At this point, the only policy available, for anyone in control of the U.S. government, is to disengage from Iraq in some degree: the only differences are how to do so, and how long it can reasonably be expected to take. Any plan must involve a transfer of sovereignty to Iraqi political figures, and a great deal of international support in the endeavor. The question is whether these things will be done sincerly and effectively, or be done as mere lip service in an attempt to continue a full-bore occupation while pretending to do something else. The criminals of the '00 Coup may be relied on to do the latter, if continued in office after the election: Sen. Kerry can be relied on to do the former, and make a genuine effort to bring the thing to the best possible conclusion, if elected to the Presidency.

The language of "growing balls to get my vote" in particular is mere juvinilia, that hardly helps along serious consideration of the issues before us. Similarly, complaints about "selling our values" to defeat the worst elements of reaction in our polity do nothing helpful: driving from office the worst elements of reaction is essential to any realization of left and progressive values in an electoral system.

"People getting their fundamental interests wrong is what American political life is all about."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[diamond14]

57. those are MAJOR points, and we can only hope that REAL DUers

listen up....

you are very wise, Magistrate....it saddens me greatly that so many here are sucked into the bush* PR machine, and are now repeating the memememememe promulgated by the bush* criminal enterprise....

many of the young draft age DUers will wake up ONLY when they get 'sucked into the intake' and put right out on the FRONT line in Iraq....the perpetual war on terror....

to be kind, it might be the bush* brain-washing machine...but in some cases...it's an outright reTHUGlican invasion...the rovian stated goals of the 'whispering campaign' to take down Kerry...and it's working...

[The Magistrate]

69. You May Forgive Me, Sir

But there seems little good to be gained by alleging, without proof, that persons critical of Sen. Kerry from an extreme left perspective are rightist disruptors. It seems to me that in almost every instance, their objections, however mis-guided, are sincere. It ought to suffice to point out that the course they urge will, as a matter of practical fact, bring immediate benefit to the worst elements of reaction in our polity, and that that is a damned odd way to display one's commitment to left and progressive principles. Persons who prove insusceptible to this argument generally reveal themselves to be persons attaching little value to the electoral process, fancy-ing themselves revolutionists of some caliber or other, attempting to employ some variant of the "make it worse to make it better" strategy that has proved so disasterous for the left in so many venues during the last century. This is a left perspective that actually does desire success by the worst elements of the right, along with destruction of center-left and pragmatist elements, for it predicts that the consequence of this will be that the people will be provoked to revolutionary conciousness, and only radical left elements will remain to lead them against the right in political expression of that conciousness. It is a pipe-dream, of course, on a par with the fantasy that U.S. soldiers would be greeted with flowers and sweets by Iraqis, and it is held to by only a small number of persons, though they are vocal in venues like this, and in a narrowly contested election, possess some small power to do mischief.

"People getting their fundamental interests wrong is what American political life is all about."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[diamond14]

76. it's not 'mis-guided'...it's deliberate parroting of limbaugh, o'reilly,

and other hacks....there is no sincerity....

if it was just 'mis-guided', certainly, my reaction would be more nuanced....but it always the same...the "little" seeding of discontent and the 'little' innuendo and sliming....it works too...the whole plan was laid out on 'free republic' and is mimicked here daily....starting with their little cover of 'oh, I'll vote for Kerry, but he is really a nasty evil guy'... this reTHUGlican plan was posted here several times to warn DUers....

the parrots are old-hat at this stuff and have been lingering here for a long time....making deliberate efforts to influence the 'middle-left' into a vote for bush*....

'oh Kerry, he's no different that bush*'
'oh Kerry, 30 years in DC and no different than bush*'
'oh Kerry, a waffler....can't make a decision'
'oh Kerry, look at his hair'
'oh Kerry, his wife is blah blah blah'
'oh Kerry, not a leader on Iraq'
'oh Kerry, no message or slogan'
'oh Kerry, same as bush*'
'oh Kerry, so corrupt that he should be denied communion'
'oh Kerry, never deserved his purple hearts'
'oh Kerry, threw his medals/ribbons away'
'oh Kerry, owns a house'
'oh Kerry, he's just as corrupt as bush*'
'oh Kerry, he lies"
'oh Kerry, you should doubt him'

all couched in...gee...I'll vote for the guy anyways....and to they also have a Brooklyn bridge to sell you....

all that Kerry-sliming comes right off free-republic, o'reilly, limbaugh, drudge and the reTHUGlican party web page...not sincerity, rather, a stealth mission to destroy America....and re-select bush*

[Cascadian]

86. Hello?

I AM NOT succumed to the Bush PR machine. These are legitimate questions that not only I am raising but those on the left as well. Kucinich supporters will say the same damn thing.

John

[sangh0]

164. No, they are not legitimate questions

as demonstrated by the fact that you can't explain how asking them will lead to anything good.

[Sparkly]

78. That was great, Magistrate

I love your posts. That one was especially good.

[Cascadian]

85. That's what I am talking about.

All I can hope is that it is just a tactic. A tactic to play the center and when elected swing to the left. However I cannot help but have doubts. I also think it is true. You cannot pretend to be Republican. It does not work (hello?). He needs to start bringing a positive and powerful message. He needs to go back to using Dean's rhetoric. "LET'S TAKE OUT COUNTRY BACK" is powerful and works.

Wake up Democrats.


John

[OKNancy]

35. Dean agrees with Kerry

Speaking of Iraq:
"Bush has made such a mess of this that there's not much they can do," Dean said in a telephone interview with The Chronicle. "There are no real options until we get a new president. So it's sort of a question that doesn't have an answer."

[randr]

41. This is a major problem

with the Democrates. No answers that they are willing to stake it all on. I had been under the impression that Dean was addressing the "mess" and had hoped he would have the nerve to opine a solution!

[The Magistrate]

49. Recognition Of Reality, Sir, Is Hardly A Problem

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[ScreamingMeemie]

31. Yes. I was hoping we would pull away a bit from the party machine.

I was hoping a strong stance would be made by now (six months from the election). But with a group of strong and loud Democrats and supporters...It think it's do-able, so I support him no question. :hi: he needs a super strong running mate though, that's a big concern for me.

[Blasphemer]

32. Of course

Doesn't mean I won't support him or cast my vote for him, but I think it's natural to have doubts about any candidate. I wouldn't say that Dems are making a mistake in choosing him. There is not a single candidate who ran that wouldn't also have question marks surrounding him (or her).

I do agree that playing to the center is a waste of time. It's old school thinking. Times have changed. The country is extremely polarized. With the GOP pandering to the fundies, playing center doesn't adequately provide American voters with the balance they seek. When Dems had the House and Senate it made more sense to go center. That's not the case anymore. Voters need clear distinctions so they can give back some of the Branches to the other party and feel confident that there is actually alternative thinking.

[blm]

34. No. And your interpretation of what Kerry said is WRONG.

Kerry isn't ASHAMED of his antiwar activities. He only said that he wouldn't use some of the exact same words today as he did as a young man. But he still stands by what he said and is PROUD of what he did.

Why buy into the spin so easily? The spin that he backtracked is generated by those with no goodwill for the Democrats in November.

[orthogonal]

36. I doubt any candidate other than Kerry will be able to beat Bush

I doubt any candidate other than Kerry will be able to beat Bush.

But, as usual, the best is the enemy of the merely good. So despite Kerry not being the perfect candidate for me, Kerry has my whole-hearted support -- because I fear that four more years of Bush will do irreversible harm to my country and my country's Constitution.

[Ladyhawk]

38. I've always had my doubts.

But I will support him because the alternative is unthinkable.

[Changenow]

39. Since the alternative LIED about every aspect of his life

and was little more than a high end flimflam man until he became Governor of Texas, no I have no reservations.

If I had any doubt about Kerry at all it is that he has been paralyzed in effectively spreading the message that Bush has not been honest with the American people about a single major policy issue in his tenure as President. In some way Kerry is like his candidate predecessors who couldn't bring themselves to attack, attack, attack as they are attacked.

[Skittles]

42. he certainly is not the best candidate we could have had

but I am going to support him 100%.

[Khephra]

44. I still have doubts and will continue to have them

as long as Kerry keeps on talking about adding troops to Iraq. ABB, but I still can have doubts--no doubt about it.

[bigtree]

47. Kerry has never suggested increasing our force there

What he suggests is an increase in our overall forces to rotate these overburdened regiments out of Iraq and Afghanistan and to use the reserves and Guard as they were intended. He also wants an increase in international presence there to take the American face off of our occupation and return control of Iraq to Iraqis.

I challenge you to produce anything that Kerry has said that advocates otherwise.

[Amerpie]

68. He did

On the day after Bush's press conference Kerry said, "If our military commanders request more troops, we should deploy them."

He also said: "The extremists attacking our forces should know they will not succeed in dividing America, or in sapping American resolve, or in forcing the premature withdrawal of U.S. troops. Our country is committed to help the Iraqis build a stable, peaceful and pluralistic society. No matter who is elected president in November, we will persevere in that mission."

"We should urge NATO to create a new out-of-area operation for Iraq under the lead of a U.S. commander. This would help us obtain more troops from major powers."

"We owe it to our soldiers and Marines to use absolutely every tool we can muster to help them succeed in their mission without exposing them to unnecessary risk. That is not a partisan proposal. It is a matter of national honor and trust."

[bigtree]

75. That is a distortion of his intentions

It looks like you are satisfied in pushing some notion that Kerry wants to increase the American forces in Iraq. He doesn't. He has said so repeatedly.

http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0402/26/se.01.html

KERRY: No, I said what we need, because our troops are over- extended in the United States, and we've turned the Guard and the Reserve into almost active duty, we're hurting families all across the nation who are paid less in the military than they were in the private sector.

And our military is so overextended that what I said is, on a temporary basis, we need two additional divisions in the overall standing Army of the United States, because when we rotate the divisions back this spring, we will only have two divisions active that are able to be deployed.


By Glen Johnson, Globe Staff, 9/1/2003
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2003/09/01/kerry_says_army_...

Senator John F. Kerry said yesterday that he favors expanding the Army by roughly 40,000 soldiers to relieve troop strain, and would spend whatever it takes to stop the guerrilla warfare in Iraq. But Kerry said he would not send more US soldiers into the country, preferring international troops that include a corps from Muslim nations.

A division is roughly 18,000 people. Under Kerry's plan, one would be dedicated to combat, the other to civil functions such as policing. He estimated that the additional troops would cost at least $5 billion, which he said he would pay for by reallocating money within the Defense Department budget.

"Personnel is the most important thing we should do," he said, explaining that the existing 480,000-strong Army is strained by multiple deployments.

While calling for an overall expansion of the nation's 1.4 million armed forces, Kerry was careful to say that he would not send more soldiers to Iraq, where the current force of nearly 150,000 troops is subject to frequent attacks. He called for a multinational expansion, saying, "the best way to protect the troops is to get Arab-speaking Muslim troops on the ground in Iraq."
_____________________________________________________________________

The Union Leader and ABC News Democratic Presidential Candidates Debate - Part 1
Location: Manchester, NH
Date: 01/22/2004

MR. GRIFFITH: Senator Kerry, in a speech at Drake University, you said in your first 100 days you would move to increase our armed forces by as much as 40,000 troops. You said there was a dire need for two full divisions. I'm the parent of two teenage sons. I-we're patriots, and people are wondering right now about voluntary versus draft. And, as president, how do you hope to lure and attract quality people into the military? And, as a follow-up, where do you stand on the issue of the draft?

SEN. KERRY: We don't need a draft now, and I wouldn't be in favor of it under the current circumstances. But, look, the first place you start to attract people into the military is to have a president who can prove to America that that president will be responsible about how that president deploys the military.

All across this country there are families right now-all of us have talked to them-who are suffering greatly, because the Guards and Reserves have been called up. They're overextended. The troops of the United States of America are overextended. Their deployments are too long. The families are hurting at home because they lose money from the private sector when they're called up, and they get paid less in the military, and nobody makes it up to them.

The fact is if we are going to maintain this level of commitment on a global basis-for the moment we have to, because of what's happened-we need an additional two divisions. One is a combat division, and one is a support division.

And that's the responsible thing to do. I've also said, responsibly, that's temporary, because I intend to be a president who goes back to the United Nations, rejoins the community of nations, brings other boots on the ground to help us in the world, and reduces the overall need for deployment of American forces in the globe-and I mean North Korea, Germany and the rest of the world where we can begin to set up a new architecture of participation of other countries.

________________________________________________

The troops are to effect the rotating out of those who have had their commitments overextended. He has spoken over and over about the illogic and unfairness of using the Guard and Reserve as Bush has. We still have committments, including Afganistan, that will not bear an immediate withdrawl of forces. The 40,000 is to realistically effect those rotations. He has spoken over and over again about going back to the U.N. and garnering more international help, particularily Muslim forces, to effect the lessening of our committments abroad.

Kerry's policy statements are fair game but you are not entitled to replace his words with your own cynical view.

Here are some of his stated views:
____________________________________________________________________

“Foreign Policy in a Post-Saddam World: Rebuilding Our Alliances and Iraq”
Remarks by John Kerry at Drake University
December 16, 2003
http://johnkerry.com/pressroom/speeches/spc_2003_1216.html

As we internationalize the work in Iraq, we need to add 40,000 troops – the equivalent of two divisions – to the American military in order to meet our responsibilities elsewhere – especially in the urgent global war on terror. In my first 100 days as President, I will move to increase the size of our Armed Forces. Some may not like that. But today, in the face of grave challenges, our armed forces are spread too thin. Our troops in Iraq are paying the price for this everyday. There’s not enough troops in the ranks of our overall armed forces to bring home those troops that have been in Iraq for more than a year.

President Bush’s policies have overextended our military – and turned reserves into fulltime soldiers. Iowa, with a population of less than three million people, is in the Top 10 states in the proportion of National Guard troops on active duty; more than 2,600 of Iowa's 9,500 Army and Air Guard soldiers have been activated. George Bush and Don Rumsfeld say we have enough troops. I think they’re putting politics and pride ahead of what is right for our soldiers, our reserves, and our security.

http://johnkerry.com
____________________________________________________________________

John Kerry believes that we must obtain a new Security Council resolution to give the United Nations authority in the rebuilding of Iraq and the development of its new Constitution and government.

He would:

Transfer Responsibility to the UN for Governance. Kerry will go to the UN with a proposal to transfer responsibility to the UN for governance and the transfer of sovereignty to Iraq. The UN would succeed the Coalition Provisional Authority and the UN Special Representative of the Secretary General would become the overall international leader in Iraq. The UN would work with the Iraqis on the substance and process of the Iraqi government and the electoral process to give it legitimacy and to organize the writing of the constitution. Kerry cautioned that this cannot happen overnight and that the CPA will have a key role in ensuring a smooth turnover.
Build an International Coalition. Kerry will reach out to the European nations to build a coalition in support of operations in Iraq. He will eliminate Bush’s discriminatory contracting procedures and offer a genuine partnership of responsibility in return for a genuine partnership of burden sharing – troops and money.

Internationalize the Troops in Iraq

John Kerry will work to expand participation and share responsibility with other countries in the military operations in Iraq. Kerry will also increase the size of the U.S. Army in order to meet the needs of a new century and the new global war on terror. The Bush Administration is overstretching the American military, and in particular the U.S. Army. There is a critical shortage of combat troops facing the country. General Keane, then acting Chief of Staff of the U.S. Army, said in testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee last summer that the Army is undermanned by about 40,000 personnel. This shortage is placing an unfair burden on soldiers and their families and is undermining our efforts around the world.

http://johnkerry.com/issues/iraq /
_____________________________________________________________________

Win the peace in Iraq and Afghanistan. John Kerry will bring real security in Iraq and Afghanistan to prevent terrorists from reemerging in Afghanistan or establishing a base in Iraq.

Broaden the Coalition in Iraq, Include the UN and Create Real Iraqi Security Forces for Stability. Kerry will do the tough diplomacy and hard bargaining to get more international boots and dollars and get the target off the backs of American troops. Kerry will rally the UN to help forge a transition to Iraqi sovereignty based on the need to build a stable democracy in Iraq. Kerry will be upfront about the costs, and he will make sure we meet our obligations fairly by rolling back tax cuts for the wealthiest and getting real international contributions.

Restore Security in Afghanistan and Undertake the Promised Marshall Plan. Kerry would expand the ISAF force and extend its reach into the provinces; and increase the trainees in the Afghan National Army (ANA). Kerry would pressure donor nations to meet the aid commitments they made at the Bonn Conference. He would double our counter-narcotics assistance to the Karzai government and make available a team of American counter-narcotics experts to provide technical assistance.

http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/releases/pr_2004_0227a.html

____________________________________________________________

[revcarol]

46. He is going to have his feet to the fire the whole first term,

and I AM GOING TO DO IT.

I/P with Likud

Stay the course in Iraq, just "internationalize it"

"Review" of WTO and NAFTA instead of getting out(when he knows we can't change anything unilaterally).Slap at Labor.

PPI

I won't go on. Am voting for him, but, OOOHWEE, when he is President he is going to hear from PROGRESSIVES!!

[Cascadian]

88. If Kerry wins, I will be glad BUT.....

I will call b.s. on any issue that I disagree with. I am sure I will get grief for it but hey. That is why I am left of center! That is just too fringe for America I suppose. :eyes:


John

[goobergunch]

51. Suffice it to say

that I'm not as angry as I once was about my lack of a vote this November.

My endorsement of Kerry stands because the alternative is unthinkable - however, my support for Kerry after he is inaugurated is conditional upon the policies he supports.

Also, my previous pledge to oppose any presidential candidate who supports the re-institution of the military draft stands and will be invoked if necessary.

[Hubert Flottz]

52. I have no doubts about Bush!

He SUCKS!

[kaitykaity]

53. Hold on and get ready to take shrapnel in your ass.

Some people here don't brook any criticism of their candidate, no matter how mild. "Get your facts right!" "You support Bush, don't you?" It's really scary.

[Cascadian]

89. It's no different than the Republicans.

This "Oh we must get in lockstep and support Kerry regardless!" is just silly. People can think what they want. If people aren't down with Kerry then what does that make those who support Dennis Kucinich?

John

[The Magistrate]

92. You Need To Ask Yourself This Question, Sir

Do you want to defeat the enemy in this election?

Elections are won by the largest group of people coalescing around the standard of a candidate. Thus, exactly the thing you are decrying is what is required for victory. Rather than complain of it, you might as well understand the need of it, and embrace it, or else acknowledge you are not particularly desirous of seeing the criminals of the '00 Coup turned out of office. Only by solidarity can that be achieved, Sir.

"Can't nobody here play this game?"

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Cascadian]

112. You're either with us or against us.

You ask...

"Do you want to defeat the enemy in this election?"

Do I want to beat Bush? Of course I do.


My dear chap, I already know what is required to win the election but to go along with the whole program and agreeing with every damned thing in Kerry's stances is following blindly and I refuse to do that. I have already made it known that I will cast my vote for Kerry however I do with my nose pinched. If telling it like it is complaining then so be it. You don't or anybody else does not like that than I can live with that. BTW What do you say to those who continue to support Kucinich?

John

[Sparkly]

117. So you're with us in your vote

when it comes to defeating the Chimp, but you think complaining, criticizing, whining and otherwise Expressing Disagreement As Is Your Right is somehow productive because...? It makes you feel better? Or you hope the Kerry campaign is reading and the candidate will change his stances (or go back in time and change his votes) as a result? Or you hope others will see the light and feel equally Independent-Mindedly Disenchanted with Kerry for not being your ideal? Or just cause you can, or what?

[noiretextatique]

155. some people have concerns about kerry...is that ok with you?

i will vote for him, but it's definitely a vote against the other guy...the way i've always voted. i think kerry will accept my vote, even if i don't support all of his positions, past, present and future.

[The Magistrate]

169. My Only Concern, Ma'am

Is the greatest number of votes against the criminals of the '00 Coup. Votes for Sen. Kerry will count alike to this purpose whether they are cast because of agreement with him, because of detestation of the criminals of the '00 Coup, or because he is the taller man.

There does not seem to me to be much benefit to be gained, at this juncture, by emphasizing where we may disagree with Sen. Kerry's past performance in various matters. Criticizing the enemy is more helpful.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[The Magistrate]

118. You May, Sir

Follow with eyes wide shut, for all the difference it makes to the question of whether criticizing the candidate who is standing at the polls against the criminals of the '00 Coup is something that will increase his chance of victory in November, or reduce it. If you know what is needed to win an election, and it would seem from your comment that we are not in any disagreement over the necessaries of that task, then decide whether you want to see it won, or whether displaying you are above following any leader or group is the more important need to see gratified. The people, the country, and the world will benefit greatly from the defeat of the criminals of the '00 Coup; they will never know nor care whether you were or were not born to follow....

"Saints should be judged guilty till proved innocent."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Cascadian]

121. You still never answered my question.

What do you say to all those Kucinich supporters? They are saying the same thing as I am.

Kucinich supporters PLEASE sound off!


John

[The Magistrate]

129. Those Here Who Support Rep. Kucinich, Sir

Have generally conducted themselves in an excellent manner, accentuating what they feel to be the best points of their candidate, and refraining from negativity towards others. There is no doubt they will be on board with Sen. Kerry once his nomination is officially ratified in July.

"Kill one, warn one hundred."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[noiretextatique]

156. surely, being on-board is not being a cheerleader

some kucinich supporters i know are having a hard time with kerry as the candidate. i suspect they will continue to feel that way, even they vote for him. the fact of the matter is: we have little choice, and we know it.

[The Magistrate]

163. Cheer-Leading, Ma'am

Is hardly required. But no good is served by complaining: as you observed, there really is not much choice in course of action. My own inclination is to the Russian proverb: "What can't be cured must be endured."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[FlemingsGhost]

54. Present system is corrupt. Kerry is a 30-year veteran of it.

Doubts? You bet.

Any hope for any significant change in the status quo? Not much.

[blm]

59. Care to share WHO exposed more government corruption than

any other lawmaker over the last 30 years?

I'll say John Kerry. Who do YOU say?

[FlemingsGhost]

60. John Kerry.

Still doesn't erase my doubts.

[bigtree]

64. Somehow your moniker has been betrayed

by your efforts to paint Kerry as less than a Democrat. ADA didn't think so when they rated Kerry's voting record above Ted Kennedy's.

Perhaps you could amend your tag to read: Dems(Reluctantly)Unite. That's the message I get from your every post about our candidate. It's sad to see you go out of your way to replace Kerry's strong Democratic record with your own cynical view.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

56. Kerry or Junior? Gee, I'm so confused...

NOT.

Some of you folks better wake up to the fact that we need to get the NeoCons out of Washington, DC, one way or another. The alternative is more of the same, PLUS:

*the military draft in 2005;

*invasions of both Syria and Iran;

*at least one major terrorist event in the U. S.;

*and other events too numerous to name.


I would also add that the potential for world war is huge.

[FlemingsGhost]

58. Fear is an illusion, created by the mind.

Do you really want to use fear as a means to give credence to opinion and knee-jerk speculation? Really... How is that different from our present political climate?

Posts like yours make me laugh...

[opihimoimoi]

61. I would take an Imperfect Kerry over a Perfect Bush any day in the week

Kerry towers over Bush by 5857625243 light years in too many aspects to choose Bush for a second disaster.

I mean look at the mans record, nothing but guess work and miserable failures. Those Bushy guys are NUTS and totally out of control with Power and Influence. They have wrecked America for a very long term...and we hesitate about Kerry. He is not perfect, none of us are... but between the two, its a no brainer.... for the sane that is.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

171. I see that you're one of the posters that needs to wake the heck up....

What exactly did you see in my post that causes you such amusement? Do you believe that the draft is NOT coming? Do you believe that both Syria and Iran are NOT on the NeoCon "hit list"? Do you also believe, despite the tens of thousands of new enemies created over the last three and half years, that there will NOT be a major terrorist attack on the U. S. sometime over the next few years? And thanks to the attitiude of the NeoCons toward the Middle East, do you also believe that a major World War is NOT right around the corner?

Posts like yours irritate me because you folks can't see the handwriting on the wall...it's there for everyone to see, if they will just open their eyes.

[FlemingsGhost]

173. The level of fear, and the illusionary perspective it brings

Actually, I will ammend my comment. It's not amusing at all, it's sad.

Try to "open your eyes" to the present. Anything else is a mirage of psychological projection, rooted in either the past or future. Neither of which you can do anything about, because the past is gone and the future has not happened yet. Both do not exist, right now.

Stop thinking so much as to what might be, and realize what is:

-- There is no draft

-- We are not at war with Iran or Syria

-- We are not presently under terrorist attack

-- A major world war is not being fought

These are the facts, right now. While you speculate and anger yourself regarding the infinite "what ifs", your life is passing you by. Dare to live it now... Trust me, it is a healthier way to live.

(edited to included additional thought)

[sce56]

62. Yep get them out! But we also need to get back to our basic principles

Like freedom of the press and the truth behind what realy happend on 911! As for Kerry I did not vote for him but I don't see any other choice since 4 more years of Bushshit is unthinkable! As it is right now I have bought some property off shore and will relocate as soon as possible since it is my gut feeling that CODE RED is coming as soon as they relize they cant keep us fooled and the BBV machines are shut down like in Calif. As for Bush VS Kerry the one true winner in their match up is Skull'N'Bones!http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0122-10.htm


<>
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[noiretextatique]

65. yes...but kerry's statement about watching the florida vote

partially addresses my biggest concern about the election...another theft. i will be voting against bush, inc again...this time by absentee ballot.

[The Magistrate]

71. Indeed, Ma'am

The best way to address the real fear of theft is for everyone to get out and vote, so that the margin achieved is beyond reach of skullduggery. That is why it so important that persons tempted to a splinterist vote, for whatever reason, be persuaded to stick in the main-line this time around. Alarmism is foreign to my make-up, but it is a real worry to me that, if the criminals of the '00 Coup are maintained in office again this year, we may never see another meaningful election in our country....

"Vote early and often!"

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[noiretextatique]

72. and to vote by absentee ballot sir

to foil their black-box voting scheme :hi:

[The Magistrate]

74. An Excellent Point, That, Ma'am

Those are necessarily hand counted....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[timtom]

67. I'm glad I read this thread...

I, too, have had my doubts.

My doubts notwithstanding, however, this thread has helped me get over those doubts.

I'm voting for Kerry, come hell or high water! Those who say ABB are absolutely correct. We KNOW what * and his thugs are! At the very least, Kerry is completely respectable as a human being and as a patriot with some semblance of a conscience. The alternative (i.e. *) does not, imo, qualify as human...and, as for "conscience?" Fugeddaboudit!

[mainer]

77. Doubts about his ability as a campaigner -- yes

I think he's an honorable, capable, intelligent man. But geez, this campaign -- why do I get the feeling he's a punching bag? Where's the anger and the fire? John McCain is the one fighting back on his behalf!

I know Kerry wants to appear "above it all." But in the process, he seems to have ceded the spine to someone else. He has NOTHING to be ashamed of when it comes to his stand on the Vietnam War. He should just say: "I was THERE. I had a right to protest it. I knew it was wrong, and it was my duty to speak the truth." Just take a stand, man, and stick with it, if that's what you believe.

I'm thinking of printing up a bumper sticker:

DATED DEAN. STILL MISS HIM.

[Sparkly]

79. He's getting the opposite criticism, actually

On CNN, MSNBC, and elsewhere, all the commentary I've heard has been critical of Kerry for defending himself against the smears about whether he threw medals or ribbons or whatever. Over and over, I've heard what a "mistake" it's been for him to be "defensive, testy, angry," or even to use the wrong "body language" (that from Leslie Stahl). He should not respond, they say, but instead have surrogates say something for him.

I didn't think he was inappropriate at ALL in defending himself. But it seems Kerry is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't on this, as well as many other issues.

[Cascadian]

91. That fire you speak of went away...

after Howard Dean dropped out like I knew it would. Where are the balls, John?


John

[mainer]

96. That "lost fire" is what bothers me.

I often get the feeling that Kerry is tired or not feeling well. Dean always gave you the impression of energy and passion. That's where the "dinoasaur yell" came from -- the man was on fire! When Dean punched back, it didn't sound like a whine -- it sounded like a forceful counter-attack.

Even a speech coach can't really change the innate rhythm of Kerry's speech patterns, which tend to be convoluted and full of passive, not active, verbs. Kerry needs to choose his Veep and fast, so SOMEONE will be out there taking the heat for him.

[freeforall]

104. mainer...

Have to agree with you about the "lost fire." Kerry doesn't have passion or vision - and I think that is what he needs to appeal to more voters.

He sounds too much as if he's defending himself against *, and not enough as if he has a vision and sound policies.

Bush-lite. Maybe the world will talk with him though. Best of two poor choices.

[Cascadian]

119. We desparately needed Dean.

The only mistakes he made were to announce he was going to scale back deregulation of the media and perhaps he should have used different words on how he was going to reach out to the Southern white voter. Howard Dean was assassinated in character. The media portrayed him as some ragging madman which he certainly wasn't. The DNC leadership has their hand in the attacks too. He was the one that gave the Democratic Party some balls to stand up for Bush and I do not think I will ever get over the fact that Kerry stole Dean's rhetoric and now he is backing down on that. Something I knew, I KNEW that would happen after Dean pulled out. Now Kerry is going back to being a punching bag for Bushco.

John

[The Magistrate]

132. Ah....

So much now becomes clear, Sir.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Cascadian]

140. What is that, old bean?

eom


John

[sangh0]

166. Dean made you feel good

and you want to feel like that again.

Take up opium

[markm]

80. Kerry isn't my first choice

But he'll be a great president.

[leesa]

81. Absolutely. But since there is little to no choice, he gets my vote

even though he works for Israel and the corporations, same old, same old.

[LoZoccolo]

84. Doubts, as in...

..."I think I might rather vote for Bush*"?

[SayitAintSo]

87. NOooooooooooo .... Just saw his speech at Westminster ...

He was great. It was on CSPAN tonight - this is the response to Cheney's Kerry bashing speech that riled the Westminster president.

Kerry was confident, presidential, even somewhat Clintonesque if you ask me. He never looked a a note and gave a flawless speech. AND the crowd LOVED him.... the most telling sign.

[Null Pointer]

93. Senator

Kerry isn't trying to appeal to you - the voter who has already decided to vote Democrat. He's appealing to the Swing Voter. The guy in South Carolina with a gun rack who has a couple of black friends and a brother-in-law in Iraq.

Look at the Senator's voting record. He is more than liberal for most of us. More liberal than Clinton. If he's elected, it'll be a golden age for us all...

[Ksec]

94. None. Never had any. Ever

Hes got it all and he will make a grand President for all the people. Experience is his strongest asset.

[friggin_genius]

97. No doubts about him,

but with the way the conservatives are attacking him, some americans will buy into it.

[diamond14]

100. no doubts here...joined Kerry's campaign in Dec 2003....he's the

very best man for the job....

my volunteer work for Kerry has also helped me understand a lot more about Kerry....there is NO DOUBT that Kerry will make a GREAT President...and help us take back America....

if we all help, even a little bit....then Kerry will take the Presidency and we will be PROUD once again to be Americans....PROUD to serve OUR Country...PROUD of our military.....

Kerry has what it takes to get the job done....Kerry has always been an idealist and a believer in America...his positions have always been strong....and his experience makes him able to step right into the job and get to work...

I look forward to the day when I will proudly walk down Pennsylvania Avenue with President John Kerry and all Americans...the sun will shine upon us and we will all dance in the streets....America can and will be great and stand proud once again....

those slimy reTHUGlicans are know damn well that they are going to prison for their crimes when Kerry steps up to the Presidency....and all their war-profits will go down the drain, and they will all be put out of war businesses and oil business and stealing from Americans....that's why the reTHUGlicans are spending all kinds of time and money to diss Kerry....America WINS big with Kerry...and slime war-profiteers lose it all.....OUR troops will come home under Kerry...and we will NEVER go to war for oil again....

[Cascadian]

125. Any Kucinich supporters out there? I need your help.

Or anybody on the left who have doubts about Kerry. Please make yourself known. I also want to know if you have hounded by those Kerry supporters because you won't go along with the program either. I want to feel not alone here.


John

[noiretextatique]

157. you are not alone

they didn't hound me because i said i'd vote for him, regardless of my doubts. but some to think it...so did you :crazy:

[spanone]

133. NO! Look, he's the guy. Get behind him or bush* is sure to win.

We need to throw doubt out the window at all costs. Kerry has got to win this election. The Supreme Court is at stake. Roe V. Wade is at risk. The World is at risk. Personal freedom is at risk, democracy is at risk and on and on. Throw out the doubts and think nothing but positive thoughts. The opposition will try to intill all the doubt in us they can. Don't help them, please.

[Cascadian]

143. Like I said. I will vote for him.

And that's it. Nothing more and nothing less. I would rather put my money towards the Democracy for America organization to bring guts back the Democratic Party.


John

[Ksec]

154. I was torn at first.

I was with Dennis K. and Clark back and forth in the beginning. I dont know of anything I can tell you to help you accept that this is a really good man and he has all the right ideas for helping the people. Hes been through alot of life experiences and has matured into a well rounded man . Hes tough and tenacious and battle hardened in politics and life.. I heard someone say his best attribute was his fighting spirit. He will not lay down and you cannot count him out at anytime because he will come back to bite you . . To me that means he hates to lose and thats what this campaign needs. You know how nasty this will be and I think weve picked the right guy. I hope you can feel good about his campaign in the future.

[durutti]

159. He's a horrible candidate.

But he's not Bush.

[Anjisan]

167. Absolutely

I think we have given the election to the Republicans by nominating John Kerry. Edwards would've made a MUCH better candidate.

I'll be voting for Kerry just because he ain't Bush, but that's a terrible reason to have to vote for someone.

[the_real_38]

170. I have no doubts about him..

... he's very much a part of the fake two-party system of America. It's only a matter of degrees (Bush = disaster) that is going to make me vote for him.