Reactions of torture pics by average Americans!

[Wind Dancer]

Aaron Brown had several people on the streets respond to the pics and I was again saddened by some of the responses.

One lady said they were getting way too much coverage and we needed to get back to Iraq. (thought those were in Iraq, shaking head in disbelief)

Another lady said that yes, a few soldiers were to blame, as were the Iraqis.


What has happened to this country? I've been around too long, little surprises me but this admin. will go down in history for atrocities far too numerous to mention now. (too tired at the moment)

I can't listen to the spin anymore, it's killing me.

[Syrinx]

1. my mother (unlike me, I guess) is an average American, and she said

The people that did that stuff should get severe punishiment. (I'm under the impression she meant life in prison.)

[SlavesandBulldozers]

2. if it had happened while I was a supervisor

I would have lined up the 2 troops in the pictures and put a bullet in each of their heads for insubordination and disobeying a direct order.

Then I would have called for an investigation into the matter.

Of course, I've never been in the army so i don't know how these things work. I've seen too many movies.

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. It shows

the procedure is you call in investigaors, and an Article 32
hearing has to be carried out, which is the equivalent of a Grand
Jury... this determines whether a General Court Martial or other
punishments (administrative, and a letter of reprimand and career ender is the harshest of the admin punishments) are to be metted out

One thing for sure

In military law those troops are deemed guilty and it is their burden
to prove their innocence... why do you think Karminski is trying so
hard to cover her rear and is now pointing to Lt General Ricardo Sanches

Oh and one more thing...

If an enlisted is even given a ltter of reprimand, likely they will be reduced in rank... (unless it is the Navy and you are talking of a Chief or above...) The only way to bust an officer is through a recomendation of a General Court Martial

One more thing, if Brigadier Karpinski faces one, the minimum rank of the officers trying her will have to be at least Brigadier... preferably one rank above...

Expect her to end up wiht a reprimand, and retirement, maybe.... just maybe they will listen if we put enough pressure and Court Martial her... the true problem is Myers... as he would have to be tried by the Service Chiefs... ah politics at that level can and do get SURREAL

[The Traveler]

7. Hmmmm

Yer not that far off ...

A soldier must sometimes walk a perilous line, charged to obey all lawful orders and to refuse all unlawful orders. It is tough, which is why good, moral leadership is so important.

And that is what we do not have.

[AP]

3. You don't know how many people they talked to before they found

two idiots.

It's like that Leno segment. They must spend 8 hours asking people quesions to get 2 minutes of stupid comments.

[Wind Dancer]

4. AP, lol

So true!

I've been watching too much mainstream TV today.

[taquinas101]

6. Reminds Me of "Hitler's Willing Executioners" By Goldhagen

Goldhagen writes that most ordinary Germans were of and complicit about the atrocities committed against the Jews. While I am optimistic that most Americans would draw the line at genocide (due to our moral superiority over ordinary Germans?), I guess I am not surprised that many Americans might take a "Bid Deal" or "They deserve it" approach to the torture pictures. Nevertheless, it is sad.

People ask why there is not similar outrage with respect to the killing of Americans by terrorists. While I would think that 9/11 proves the assumption underlying this question to be false (remember the French headline, "We are all Americans"), the answer may be found in our reaction to allegations of police beatings. This is not tit for tat. Police are not supposed to engage in the criminal conduct that they have a duty to prevent.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. Yep and shows what

the cynical use of 9.11 by the Terra administration has done
to the average Murican. He\she is so afraid that a little torture
on "The other" who is barely human... is nothing to be afraid of.

Heck if it saves some of our precious lifes, who cares?

The Average Murican does not realize that this will COST many
more lifes and may just transform a war of choice (yes Iraq is a war of choice), into a very real, war of necessity on our own streets...
that is because the average American does not realize that what our troops have done has terrible consequences for us in the Arab World.

We just lost that region for a generation, if not two...

But the average murican is very provintial and the troops who did it, are even more provintial. And since you read "Hitler's Willing Executioners" I am sure you have read Lifton's essays as well. See the pattern in the first troops used this way being from a VERY SMALL town? Not to justify them, but see the pattern?

[Wind Dancer]

10. Welcome taquinas101

I am a newbie myself.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. Welcome to DU

:hi:

[Lindsey]

11. Bush's war...the picture of the prisoner on the box with the hood..

as most of us know, there have been a few defining pictures that have defined wars. These pictures helped to turn many Americans against the Vietnam War. What immediately comes to mind is the Vietnamese guy with the gun to his head and the naked young girl running down the dirt road after the nepalm has been released. I think that the picture of that prisoner on the box with the hood is an illustration of the face of THIS war. However, I do feel like we're living in an alternate universe and I don't know how ma and pa sixpack will respond..God, what's happend to us?...:-(

[The_Casual_Observer]

12. "I am optimistic that most Americans would draw the line "

I don't see any reason for your optimism. This has been framed as them against us. Never mind that the "them" isn't very well defined except that is the middle east "region". Phrases like "flatten them" and "kill all the rag heads" seem to just roll off the tongue of about 30% of our God loving/fearing population.

[G_j]

14. welcome taquinas!

to DU, & thanks for a thoughtful post.

[izzie]

20. Look in to test done by Yale on what the ave. person will do

I do not know where to find the test but will look and see if I can find it. It goes on a scale. Some people will never do the thing if it is wrong (Few) and most will do it if some one above them tell them to do it. They ran the test over and over with shocks and blind test and they always came out just about the same. Women tended to do as told more than men. I want to call this the Nuremberg test for some reason, but I could be wrong.

[izzie]

22. See Stanley Milgram study on obedience to authority

They also bring up the prison study done in Calif.

[bobbieinok]

26. Stanford study - they had to stop it after just a few days

[DemMother]

9. I must have seen a different segment--of the people...

I saw interviewed, all but one were very upset about the Iraqi prison torture. The woman in Chicago thought there was too much coverage, but the others were not approving or dismissive of it at all.

[Wind Dancer]

13. There were people upset

but those two stood out. Again, think it was my mood after watching too much coverage re: abuse vs. torture and overhearing a few conversations in my area.

I should have titled the thread differently - somewhat misleading in what I was trying to express.

[G_j]

15. welcome to DU FrustratedDemInNC

I share your concern.

..(also frustrated in NC)

[Wind Dancer]

16. Thanks G_j,

Glad to be here.

[huellewig]

17. I doubt this is going to happen again. In the short run.

My fear is a bunch of caskets draped in flags as a result of a few stupid people. So now the people of Iraq have two choice's. Die fighting, or face sexual humiliation at the hands of the Americans. These fucking idiots are going to make American body bags fill up faster. I would rather take a bullet in the head then get raped. These assholes should be charged with the future murder of American Troops.

[FireHeart]

19. I was subjected to a harangue today...

about how those Iraqis deserved what they got for causing 9/11. The idiot wouldn't listen when I tried to tell him they had nothing to do with it. I finally broke off the conversation when he started shouting about me being a Muslim lover and how much he hated me for not loving Dubya.

I felt sick the rest of the day.

[izzie]

21. Bush and his Right wing nuts got what they wanted.

Many Am to hate these people. They set it up.

[rebellious woman]

24. Talking about brutality, t here

was a tank with apocalypse written on the gun turret
on the "adnausem site"....if one does not have a strong
stomach don't look at those pics...it made me sick and
very sad
what my country has done to a once beautiful country
and people. Seeing that tank with those words I knew
then what was the attitude was.

[Earth_First]

23. I had a friend of mine say to me yesterday, "What torture pictures?"

How one can be so out of touch with current events is beyond me...

[SlavesandBulldozers]

25. the same people saying "What torture pics?"

combined with those who think the torture is justified, are Bush's base. They are what we are up against.