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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 05:33 PM
Original message
Rumsfeld and Operation Manhunter (Rummy ordered the torture?)...
Sy Hersh has been saying in interviews that the regular Army and CIA are pissed because Rumsfeld is forcing a knock-down-the-doors type approach when it comes to rooting out the insurgency. He bypassed the "gain the trust of the people" approach and went straight to the "round them up and make them talk" approach. Many knew that this would only widen the insurgency and ultimately cost more soldier's lives - but Rummy ignored reason and went with the testosterone driven strategy.

Sy has intimated that there are many in the Pentagon that want Rummy's hide and they are the ones who leaked the Taguba report (http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4894001). He (Sy) kept referring to the Manhunter operation, so I Googled Manhunter and Rumsfeld. This is what I found:


Military split on use of special forces
Role in terror war stirs much debate


Washington Post
By Gregory L. Vistica

Updated: 12:42 a.m. ET Jan. 05, 2004 With Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld pressuring the Pentagon to take a more aggressive role in tracking down terrorists, military and intelligence officials are engaged in a fierce debate over when and how elite military units should be deployed for maximum effectiveness.

Under Rumsfeld's direction, secret commando units known as hunter-killer teams have been ordered to "kick down the doors," as the generals put it, all over the world in search of al Qaeda members and their sympathizers.
....
Rumsfeld's "manhunter" plan, as described in memos, is more daring than efforts against terrorist networks during the Clinton years, according to those who have seen it or have been briefed. Rumsfeld's plan calls for sending Special Mission Units into a number of countries throughout the world.
....

http://www.oz.net/~vvawai/wot/kicking-doors.html

Any further help locating more info on Manhunter would be appreciated.

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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 05:39 PM
Response to Original message
1. Holy stinking cow
This is a smoking gun of sorts.

Rummy IS a war criminal
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. We need to force the Senators to confront Rummy on this....
First, I'd like as much info on Manhunter as possible.
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Must_B_Free Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #1
25. Related: Gen Kevin Burns
Edited on Wed May-05-04 08:02 PM by Must_B_Free
http://www.themilitant.com/2003/6732/673204.html
“We’ve become too specialized,” said Byrnes, the head of Training and Doctrine Command (TRADOC) at Fort Monroe, Virginia. “Ask a junior enlisted who they are, and they’ll tell you, ‘I’m a mechanic,’ not a soldier. We need to change that culturally in the Army.” Beginning next year for soldiers, and in three years for officers, the Army plans to formally inculcate a “warrior ethos” throughout its ranks, he added.

This is part of a broader transformation of the entire U.S. armed forces, which includes giving central role to Special Operations units, combining commands of various branches of the military, outsourcing jobs like running military prisons and hospitals to non-military entities, and enhancing the military’s volunteer character. This is happening, as U.S. defense secretary Donald Rumsfeld put it in a Jan. 31, 2002, speech to the War College in Washington D.C., because “In the 21st century…we need rapidly deployable, fully integrated joint forces capable of reaching distant theaters quickly and working with our air and sea forces to strike adversaries swiftly, successfully, and with devastating effect.”

In other words, the White House aims at turning the U.S. military into an instrument more like that of Israel’s armed forces, or even those of Cuba’s—not politically, of course, but in terms of rigorous training aimed at making it a more effective fighting machine for imperialism.


They trained in Israeli war tactics:
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3702655

Warrior Ethos Program Homepage:
http://www-tradoc.army.mil/pao/Web_specials/WarriorEthos/
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displacedtexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 05:41 PM
Response to Original message
2. Haiti? Venezuela? Philippines? And the beat goes on...
This explains a lot!

Thanks!
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 05:43 PM
Response to Original message
3. Here's what old time CIA guys are telling Sy Hersh about torture...
Edited on Wed May-05-04 06:41 PM by Junkdrawer
They say torture doesn't work. And that's because, under torture, people tell you what ever you want to hear.

So you round up a large group of young men - torture them - and they give you the name of every male relative and friend. You round them up and they tell you the name of every male.... And you wonder why you get no "actionable intelligence". Asinine.

This is why the old guard stopped the practice. But Rumsfeld with his Manhunter program re-instituted the practice.



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slaveplanet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. and we have proof he feels this way
here:
QUOTE: Torture has been outlawed in all circumstances everywhere. But global terrorism may be leading America to bend the rules.

Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld-January 9, 2003-The Economist mag


:smoke:
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BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. But we've still got John Wayne syndrome
I still see a whole lot of Americans looking at this as a butt-kicking contest, and delighted to wear steel-toed boots against people who are barefoot.

Yeah! (Grunt). Kick some ass! (belch) Show 'em who's boss!

I keep seeing new young folks being interviewed as they head overseas, proud to be an amurrican, "keeping us all safe." What I also notice is that, though the young people in Iraq are many of them Hispanic and African-American, the "show 'em who's boss" interviews are all white guys. Why don't they interview minorities? Is it that they might not talk like John Wayne?

Bev

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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #10
19. Same old story. Interview them when they come home...
and most will have a VERY different opinion. That's why politicians who have seen action tend to be the doves. That's why the chicken-hawks scare me so much.

And it's not just seeing your friends killed that does it. From what I hear, killing is even more traumatic. And can you imagine accidentally killing children?
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Must_B_Free Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #10
26. If you read the Warrior Ethos info
you get the idea that they picked people with a grudge. One guy was 17! A couple that I saw lost friends in WTC and claimed they wanted to "protect" America.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 05:46 PM
Response to Original message
4. BTW: I heard much of the stuff from Sy on Diane Rehm. Audio archive here:
Edited on Wed May-05-04 06:16 PM by Junkdrawer
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #4
14. Pay special attention to the parts from 18 min in to about 30 mins in...
Edited on Wed May-05-04 07:19 PM by Junkdrawer
That's where the juicy stuff is.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. Sy Hersh is sitting on a HUGE story (re Rumsfeld & the Mafia)
Listen to what he says 28:30 minutes in...

Rumsfeld has asked people (in the CIA) to do things they didn't do.....Murder Incorporated basically
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 06:01 PM
Response to Original message
6. Apartheid Enforcers Guard Iraq For the U.S.
Erinys is an international Security Services
Erinys is an international Security Services and Risk consultancy. We provide clients with a range of services and capabilities to reduce the impact of operating in volatile, uncertain or complex environments such as sub-saharan Africa and the Middle East.

Formed in 2001 by senior managers and executives of the security & risk management industry our combination of skills and experience has enabled Erinys to rapidly establish a pre-eminent reputation in its field. A reputation exemplified by a client list representative of some of the world's largest and most important corporations.



Apartheid Enforcers Guard Iraq For the U.S.


By Marc Perelman

02/21/04: (The Forward) In its effort to relieve overstretched U.S. troops in Iraq, the Bush administration has hired a private security company staffed with former henchmen of South Africa’s apartheid regime.

The reliance on apartheid enforcers was highlighted by an attack in Iraq last month that killed one South African security officer and wounded another who worked for the subsidiary of a firm called Erinys International. Both men once served in South African paramilitary units dedicated to the violent repression of apartheid opponents.

François Strydom, who was killed in the January 28 bombing of a hotel in Baghdad, was a former member of the Koevoet, a notoriously brutal counterinsurgency arm of the South African military that operated in Namibia during the neighboring state’s fight for independence in the 1980s. His colleague Deon Gouws, who was injured in the attack, is a former officer of the Vlakplaas, a secret police unit in South Africa.

“It is just a horrible thought that such people are working for the Americans in Iraq,” said Richard Goldstone, a recently retired justice of the Constitutional Court of South Africa and former chief prosecutor of the United Nations International Criminal Tribunals for the former Yugoslavia and Rwanda.

The Coalition Provisional Authority in Iraq and the Pentagon did not return requests for comment.
In Iraq, the U.S. government has tapped into the ever-growing pool of private security companies to provide a variety of defense services, including protecting oil sites and training Iraqi forces. Observers worry that a reliance on these companies and the resulting lack of accountability is a recipe for further problems in a volatile region.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5723.htm

Guarding a Vital Asset
Are Iraqis ready to protect their valuable, vulnerable oil?By Joe Cochrane
Newsweek InternationalFeb. 16 issue - It might be a stretch to call Ali and Muhammad the guardians of Iraq's future. Pulling guard duty recently in the rain-soaked northern town of Kirkuk, home of one of the world's largest oilfields, the two men sport mismatched uniforms and clutch rusty AK-47s. But looks are deceiving. Faced with continuing attacks by anti-U.S. insurgents and, according to some, insufficient ground troops to stop them, the U.S. military is counting on Ali and Muhammad (not their real names) and thousands of other private guards to protect Iraq's vast oil infrastructure. The task is daunting: dozens of oilfields, refineries and pumping stations, along with thousands of kilometers of pipeline that crisscross Iraq, are prime targets for insurgents bent on denying the U.S.-led occupying force money for long-term reconstruction. They also hope to exacerbate ongoing fuel shortages in hopes of further enraging a population already angered by long queues for petrol and kerosene. "Production at the refineries is already down 40 to 50 percent," says Asim Jihad, a spokesman for Iraq's Oil Ministry, "so any attacks seriously affect the flow of oil for export and our ability to provide things for the people."


The vast majority of the attacks around the country each day are directed at U.S. troops and the Iraqis who support them, including the Feb. 1 bombing in Arbil that killed 100 Kurds and wounded 247 more. Similar strikes at targets like the Kirkuk fields or Daura oil refinery in Baghdad could seriously disrupt production and oil exports, and have major implications for Iraq's recovery. "One attack could be catastrophic to the oil industry," says Col. Tom O'Donnell, commander of Task Force Shield, which oversees the security of Iraq's oil infrastructure. Anti-U.S. fighters have launched at least 100 attacks against the oil infrastructure since Baghdad fell, including two last fall on a northern pipeline route that halted crude-oil exports to Turkey. The Coalition has been forced to buy oil products from neighboring countries to meet domestic needs.

U.S. war planners gave high priority to seizing Iraq's northern and southern oilfields before Saddam Hussein could sabotage them. But after major combat operations ended, manpower was shifted elsewhere, leaving the oil industry dangerously exposed. To protect its infrastructure, last September the Pentagon awarded a $40 million contract to Erinys International, a private, Britain-based security firm. In only four months Erinys has trained, armed and deployed more than 9,000 Iraqi guards across the country, and plans to expand its force to nearly 15,000 in the coming months. The U.S. military also struck deals with tribal leaders to provide an additional 5,000 guards in their areas.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4208603 /


South African mercenary question in Iraq

Is Iraq a zone of conflict? A war zone? Or is it a peace-building situation? On the answer to these questions rests the fate of more than 1,500 South Africans now working in Iraq.
Among them are some of the known assassins and torturers from the apartheid era. Most have been recruited as bodyguards, security consultants or security guards at salaries ranging up to $10,000 a month.
The issue came to a head after the bombing of the Shaheen hotel in Baghdad earlier this month, which South African Frans Strydom died and another South African, Deon Gouws, was seriously injured.
Gouws, a former policeman, was linked to the notorious South African Vlakplaas death squad.
The murderous activities of Vlakplaas were exposed when its commander, Colonel
Eugene de Kock, gave full details of the unit. Gouws and others associated with it were exposed and applied for amnesty to South Africa’s Truth and Reconciliation Commission (TRC).
The TRC granted amnesty to Gouws for at least 15 murders and the petrol bombings of the homes of between 40 and 60 anti-apartheid activists. He was discharged from the police force in 1996 as medically unfit and apparently had difficulty finding or settling down to another job.
Strydom was a former warrant officer in the Koevoet (‘Crowbar’) counterinsurgency unit that achieved notoriety for being paid bounties for the bodies of ‘terrorists’ in Namibia. They conducted a reign of terror in the northern parts of that country in the years before independence.
The backgrounds of these men are not yet widely known in Iraq, let alone the wider region. But those officials who have become aware expressed shock and anger that such ‘mercenaries’ could have been recruited.
As this information spreads and undoubtedly becomes embellished, there is likely to be a backlash against private security companies operating in Iraq.

http://www.muslimnews.co.uk/paper/index.php?article=1497




Johannesburg - Francois Strydom learnt about killing in the Koevoet, the apartheid-era paramilitary police unit, notorious for violence, torture and murder.

In Iraq, Strydom found his skills were in demand.

Employed by US-based firm SAS International, Strydom was one of a number of South Africans in Iraq working as private "security experts" before a January 28 bomb outside the Shaheen Hotel prematurely terminated his contract.

The aftermath of the blast sent shockwaves through the media, as Strydom"s death revealed an embarrassing situation. It was estimated that 1 500 former soldiers and policemen were operating in Iraq, in defiance of stringent legislation forbidding the practice.

It emerged that the men make up along with US and British personnel the largest contingent of commercial "military service providers" on the ground in Iraq.

Most are said to be members of former elite units, disbanded following the end of apartheid, their members suddenly finding themselves unemployed, their skills no longer required.

http://www.africancrisis.org/ZZZ/ZZZ_News_2085.ASP


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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
8. did Rummy order MG Miller from GITMO to Iraq for Torture Techniques?
This has an AWFUL Smell to it....

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4894001

IO COMMENTS ON MG MILLER’S ASSESSMENT

1. (S/NF) MG Miller’s team recognized that they were using JTF-GTMO operational procedures and interrogation authorities as baselines for its observations and recommendations. There is a strong argument that the intelligence value of detainees held at JTF-Guantanamo (GTMO) is different than that of the detainees/internees held at Abu Ghraib (BCCF) and other detention facilities in Iraq. Currently, there are a large number of Iraqi criminals held at Abu Ghraib (BCCF). These are not believed to be international terrorists or members of Al Qaida, Anser Al Islam, Taliban, and other international terrorist organizations. (ANNEX 20)

2. (S/NF) The recommendations of MG Miller’s team that the “guard force” be actively engaged in setting the conditions for successful exploitation of the internees would appear to be in conflict with the recommendations of MG Ryder’s Team and AR 190-8 that military police “do not participate in military intelligence supervised interrogation sessions.” The Ryder Report concluded that the OEF template whereby military police actively set the favorable conditions for subsequent interviews runs counter to the smooth operation of a detention facility. (ANNEX 20)


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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Steve Weissman of Truthout thinks so...
....

If public pressure mounts, Washington may chuck overboard some of the CIA and military intelligence officers, along with private contractors who helped translate and interrogate. In the meantime, the Army brass is rushing to fix a prison system that is clearly collapsing, and has given the job to Major General Geoffrey D. Miller, the former detention camp commander at Guantanamo Bay.

On an earlier visit to Iraq, Gen. Miller recommended that military police guards act as "enablers" for interrogations, as Pvt. England was doing. Now, he will no doubt build "a firewall" to allow his fellow-officers to plausibly deny knowing about the seamier side of American intelligence. He might also want to ban personal cameras.

But for all the honeyed words and hurried reforms, American torture will not stop. The CIA and military intelligence will continue to hurt, humiliate, and attempt to break the prisoners they want to question, and - if they can get away with it - so will our homeland security forces, whether the FBI, a new version of Britain's MI5, or even our local police.

....

http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/050604B.shtml
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #9
17. oh Junkdrawer, you should have heard the puff piece on NPR...
regarding Miller tonight. It was indeed vomitous. Femlale reporter going on about how he told her they don't use "real torture"! For cripes sakes has anyone SEEN this guy?? I smelled ONE big bad fish when you posted this link and Miller is it I am certain. He and Rummy need to go! Thank you for confirmation of my suspicions. These people are scum... :puke:
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mopaul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 06:34 PM
Response to Original message
11. kick kick kick
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 06:36 PM
Response to Original message
12. Einsatzgruppen, American Style.
truer than the red white and blue...


(I just dated myself)
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 06:36 PM
Response to Original message
13. wasn't "Manhunter" the original Hannibal Lechter movie?
how appropriate for Rummy...


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notadmblnd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
15. I keep waiting for them to name the private contractor
Edited on Wed May-05-04 06:40 PM by notadmblnd
it may go along way in explaining why the private contractors we're ambushed and mutilated.
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Nlighten1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 06:41 PM
Response to Original message
16. Important news about this from a blogger.
http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2004_05_02_dneiwert_archive.html#108354546090076637

Here is evidence that the torture of Iraqi prisoners (as previously suggested) may well proceed to the highest levels of the chain of command:

Radio personality Joe Ryan, who posts an online diary from Iraq and has been involved with prisoner interrogation, has discussed at length some of the other people interrogating prisoners at Abu Graib. In his April 13 entry, he named someone of particular interest:

"Wild" Bill Armstrong is one of our interrogators. He and I are both in the Force Protection section. Bill is married with five kids and a devout Christian, father, and husband. He arrived here two weeks before I did. Bill knows interrogation and reporting doctrine better than anyone here. Of course it was his career in the army and now he teaches at the school house in Arizona when he is not over here playing in the sand. I see Bill and know there are some incredible people in America. Here is a man who has already served in the military for 22 years, has a bunch of children, good job, and decides that he is needed over here so heads over to contribute. Politically, Bill makes Rush Limbaugh look like a flaming liberal by comparison. He is also leaving here after his R&R and will become the division cage site lead out in Fallujah.

The "school house in Arizona" is almost certainly Fort Huachuca, whose prisoner-interrogation course was described a year ago in ArmyLINK News:

FORT HUACHUCA, Ariz. (Army News Service, Feb. 24, 2003) -- A new course at the U.S. Army Intelligence Center began last month to train soldiers how to extract intelligence from Al Qaeda detainees.

The Intelligence Support to Counter Terrorism course began Jan. 27 to specifically train the next rotation of National Guard and Army Reserve military intelligence soldiers heading to Guantanamo.

The course resulted from a visit to Guantanamo Bay a few months ago by Brig. Gen. John Custer, U.S. Army Intelligence Center and Fort Huachuca acting commander. He returned from the detainee facility there convinced that the military intelligence soldiers on the ground needed to be better equipped to gather information.

After briefing Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld on the limited training the intel soldiers had to obtain critical information from Al Qaeda, the Intelligence Center devised a new course to help support the global war on terrorism.

This, of course, raises an immediate question: How much does Rumsfeld know about the interrogation program put into place at Abu Ghraib? How much planning went into this program? And did he ever brief the president?
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Rummy takes a personal interest in torture training, huh?
Edited on Wed May-05-04 07:09 PM by Junkdrawer
Here he is at Abu Ghraib giving instructions:

http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2004/04/30/briefingrumsfeld,0.jpg
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #18
29. and we wondered where the 700million
went
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Monkey see Monkey Do Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 07:26 PM
Response to Original message
20. I'm convinced that there's baaaaad stuff behind Rummy
I can scant remember the details, but in the eighties there was a mini-scandal (that got hushed up & dwarfed by Iran-Contra) of the army setting up basically a private army which was funded 100% by the black budget of the DoD (which runs into mega-millions because of all the black projects).

Anyway, given the current chumps are incapable of being original, I'd bet my bottom dollar that a similar thing has been setup -- & rather than the CIA contracting Soldier-of-Forture nutjobs to do dirty shit, Rummy has set up nasty shit through the DIA -- point of example being that P2OG madness of two years back (see Philippines for possible use of such provacation). The regular spooks may have washed their hands of assassination & running mad-dog agents, but perhaps the Pentagon has found a willing cast?

Anyway, all of this is not very helpful to you! Hersh wrote an article on the assassination of that guy in Yemen (which killed about 5 others) back in 2002 -- ooh and a quick google gives me:

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?021223fa_fact
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. That's what I'm looking for...
This is where DU shines!!! :thumbsup:
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 06:21 AM
Response to Reply #20
33. Killers and torturers in plain clothes...
No wonder the Iraqis go after Western civilian workers. Western civilians are going to have a hard time in Iraq for generations to come.
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 07:28 PM
Response to Original message
22. Rummy has a bit of the old Hussein in him. Bastard.
Dear Iraq, welcome to democracy U.S. style.
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Amaya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 07:33 PM
Response to Original message
23. This guy is just a piece of work
:grr: :mad:
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. kick
:kick:
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Unknown Known Donating Member (829 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 08:19 PM
Response to Original message
28. Rumsfeld has micromanaged every inch of this war
Edited on Wed May-05-04 08:20 PM by Unknown Known
and there are many in the Pentagon who would love to see Rummy swing for this. I remember from the very beginning of this shamadministration, Rummy went in and got rid of a lot of people and replaced them with his neocon friends.

Then he dissed a lot of Pentagon people about how to handle the war. When you hear "Pentagon" now - remember, this is not the Pentagon of the Clinton years - this is Rummy's Pentagon.
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 08:31 PM
Response to Original message
30. Food for thought...
Perhaps this is way off base, but as I recall Clinton did something to ban the recruitment of criminal types by the CIA. If I remember correctly, he was chastised and ridiculed by the neo-cons. In fact, they made fun of him as being naive, and I thought BushCo reversed what Clinton did regarding this matter.

Now I'm thinking with those restraints removed, BushCo would be free to hire anyone they thought could best serve their purposes. Including "private contractors" to oversee prisons and interrogation sessions...
:shrug:
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. See posts #4 & #21...
Hersh is sitting on a big story in this area...
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Yes, it boggles the mind...
BUMP
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:02 AM
Response to Original message
34. Aw. Bush takes Rummy to the woodshed---Anybody believe that?
:eyes:

I sure don't.
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