To those lurking here who support what happend at Abu Gharib

[keithyboy]

To those who say that what happened at Iraqi prisoners was NOT torture should remember that we probably tortured at least 25 of these people to death. While the death of Berg was horrible (and we are not certain who really killed Berg yet) there is documented proof that at least 25 Iraqis "died" in our custody. AND after Rumsfeld visited that prison, 300 prisoners were released which means they should not have been held in prison in the first place. It was not torture that led us to Saddam, it was a $25 million reward! If torture worked, we would have been able to find Osama and Al-Zawgari long ago.

[Heyo]

1. I would NEVER support.....

...the type of behaviour exhibited by those soldiers. I think it's disgusting and repuslive.

Having said that.. the photos I have seen *so far*.. are not what I would call "torture".... abuse and humiliation, yes, and inexcusable and beyond the bounds of decency. But it's important to know what words mean.

As far as a bunch of detainees being tortured to death, I am suspicous of these claims.... 25 Iraqis died in custody? Where is this documented proof? Just because someone died in custody doesn't mean they were tortured to death.

I think the best way to rectify this situation would be to publicly get to the bottom of what happened and identify and put the people who did it in jail. (I say "publicly" but I don't mean 'circus'.... although I don't know if that's possible.) I think the court martials are a good start.

regards,
-Heyo

[daveskilt]

2. elctrodes on the genitals - light heated pranks?

do they need to slice off bits of (mostly innocent civilian) iraqis to count as torture, and if it were american testicles being fried would it be torture then?

[Heyo]

7. Read my post again...

"Having said that.. the photos I have seen *so far*.. are not what I would call "torture".... "

'Just what I have seen so far.' Torture very well may have taken place at that place.

I haven't seen any pictures of electrode/genitals. I have *heard* about it... but that doesn't have much weight util the story comes out in some way that can be trusted. I read in a few places that they didn't actually shock them, they may have just acted like they were going to, which is deplorable in itself in the worst way, however there is a disticntion. Or it may have happened just like you said, in which case, I too would call it torture.Or it may not have happened at all.

Media sources don't have a lot of credibility with me right now, so I just don't know.

The call it torture?dont call it torture is starting to seem like a dog chasing it's tail. It is what it is, and it was wrong. WHat we call it doesn't change what it is. The abuse of weaker human being by stronger ones

Heyo

edit: some stuff

[Ardee]

9. you have flexible morality

and that is very dangerous indeed. The pictures I saw were plainly evident of a form of torture...If you do not think so then strip naked, put a bag on your head, stand on a chair with your arms extended in front of a mixed audience. Do this for three or four hours with men and women laughing at you and making crude comments. Oh and throw in a couple of rabid dogs just for kicks.....Not exactly a fraternity prank when it happens to you I'd bet...BAH!

[Ms. Clio]

12. Your posts all have a certain sameness to them

So the Taguba report isn't a good enough source for you to call it "torture," eh?

What bullshit.

[newyawker99]

16. I guess being naked, tied and helpless

while being surrounded by attack dogs isn't torture then?
It doesn't have to be only physical to be torture, it could
be psychological too.


:puke:

[daveskilt]

18. I read it...you're still reaching

the picture with the elctrodes on the fingers then (guy with the hood etc) miss that one? is it only torture if they fry someones genitals and not anything else?

Also I'm not hearing the media in rumsfelds words "using the torture word" they are obeying the rumsfeld directive to call it abuse and dupe people into thinking it isnt that bad.

also the prisoners killed in custody - tickled to death?

On edit - The question stands...if it were americans would anyone call it abuse based on the photos or torture? calling it torture and not abuse it as an important distinction (which is why rumsfeld wants the media saying abuse and not torture) but also it is a legal distinction in the geneva convention and one which has been well and truly crossed by American soldiers and leaders.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

5. Torture as defined by the Geneva conventions...

"No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever."

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm

THAT is the definition of torture as far as Abu Graib is concerned, so YOUR definition means exactly nothing. Forced sexual humiliation IS mental torture, and is banned by the Geneva Convention.

That is not even mentioning the PHYSICAL torture they underwent, such as beatings, dog attacks, and all sorts of other violent behavior including rape.

Just becaue the photos they showed were the TAMEST, doesn't mean that these prisoners weren't tortured worse (in fact the Senators etc who saw them rest of the photos made it clear that the unpublished photos are FAR worse). However, even the photos shown to the world constitute torture as defined by the Geneva Conventions.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

3. Those are the same people...

Who think that the cooking scene in "Hannibal" is a fine primer on sautee'ing techniques.

[KG]

4. plenty of those even on DU

bet their opinions of what torture was would change if those things were done to them.

[keithyboy]

6. You bet it would.

A broom stick up their butts would do much to change their opinions.

[NNN0LHI]

8. I don't see many of the outspoken ones posting here any more n/t

[ithacan]

10. US POWs are now fair game for the same treatment

As McCain has pointed out, respecting the Geneva Conventions is not some bleeding heart do-gooder idea.

It's about reciprocity.

We need the Geneva Conventions so our own troops are treated humanely when they are taken prisoner.

Bush has ripped up the Geneva Conventions.

Bush has therefore effectively said, "I don't care what happens to our own troops when they are taken prisoner..."

He has opened the door to massive abuses against US POWs.

But of course, maybe that is his goal.

He has NEVER shown any sympathy towards the soldiers. On the contrary, they have ALWAYS been subordinated to his own selfish political goals.

[jmowreader]

17. I think it is his goal

When the pictures first hit, Bartcop commented: "If this was against US troops, the nuclear option would immediately be on the table."

Bush is looking for an excuse to nuke Iraq. Torturing Americans would do it.

The only reason he won't do it now is that he knows he'd be out of office in a New York Minute if he tried it. But let a few more American prisoners get tortured, and he'll have the permission he needs.

The Nick Berg video is blown the second someone (who is not us) figures out Abu Musab al-Zarqawi only has one leg and the guy in the video who said he was Abu Musab al-Zarqawi has two. So they need something better than that.

[in_cog_ni_to]

11. What outrages me is

people like Senator Inhofe who are "outraged by the outrage!" What??!! the hell does he expect? 2 wrongs do not make a right and we have every right to be outraged by the killing of Americans AND the torture of the Iraqis. The repuke minds are wired wrong. :grr: When our Senators think this behavior is OK, we have a HUGE problem.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

14. I'm assuming it's grandstanding for his hillbilly, redneck, beer swilling

constituents. But he could actually feel that way too.

[mzmolly]

13. Exactly right!

Torture brings bad intelligence according to studies.

[Qanisqineq]

15. I call sodomy with foreign objects and rape torture

not to mention the 14-25 reported beaten to death. Even McCain says torture is bullshit, it makes people tell you what they think you want to hear, not necessarily the truth.