Books and Bibles - Holding School Functions in Churches

[RamblingRose]

Keisha Taylor may miss her daughter's fifth-grade promotion ceremony next week, not because of illness or distance, but because of religion.

Her daughter Keiyotta Cooper's school, Nesbit Elementary in southwest Gwinnett, is holding the ceremony in a Baptist church, and Taylor is a practicing Muslim.

"Although they're not going to be preaching anything at the ceremony . . . I feel ultimately, somehow, they are mixing religion with education," said Taylor, who moved to Norcross from Philadelphia last year. "I heard one parent last year kept their child out because they held it in a church. I don't think that's right."

Holding promotion ceremonies and other events in area churches is a fairly common practice in Gwinnett County Public Schools, where a burgeoning student enrollment has led to a plethora of classroom trailers and little space to hold events on campus.

But as the state's largest school system becomes more diverse with an influx of families from across the world, it's a practice that's starting to be questioned.

<snip>

Even without a specifically religious program, Debbie Seagraves, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Georgia, said holding a graduation ceremony in a church could potentially be a violation of the First Amendment, which prohibits a government entity from endorsing religion.


http://www.ajc.com/wednesday/content/epaper/editions/wednesday/gwinnett_04aa2eb7e11cb12910a2.html

I am not a very religious person, and don't have a problem with attending school graduations, concerts, etc. in churches or places of worship, as long as there is no prayer or religious ceremony. In Atlanta, I would rather go to a baptist church with AC than sit on bleachers in a gym with no AC. I don't think I would be offended if I were invited to attend a graduation in a mosque or synagogue, but would view it as a sign of tolerance and coming together.

Would like to hear other DU'ers thoughts.

[trotsky]

1. Although I wouldn't personally be offended...

I'm an atheist and can certainly understand why people WOULD be. An easy test is to put the shoe on the other foot, and see how comfortable a bunch of Baptists would be in holding classes or ceremonies inside a mosque.

All of this just illustrates how divisive a force religion tends to be.

[mmonk]

2. I'm for separation of church and state in ALL ways

now that fundamentalists are controlling policy and law in the US. I have never ever been so solidly behind the separation of church and state in ALL fuctions as I am right now. They WILL NOT run a country I live in if I can help it without a fight. You can't give them an inch any more because they are influencing education, foreign policy, domestic policy, and law. They have overreached and I give no quarter.

[beyurslf]

3. I would find it offensive. I don't want to go in a church that doesn't

want me in there. And the Baptist church doesn't want an open gay male who is an atheist in their church.

[Bridget Burke]

4. Poor wimps--no AC?

When I graduated in 1966 we used the football stadium. South Houston High School, Pasadena Independant School District--hard by the refineries.

What makes the Georgians so delicate?

[RamblingRose]

6. Georgians aren't so delicate, thanks, just covered in smog & pollen!

Many high school graduations are still held outside. For people with asthma, it is very difficult to be outside in the mid-afternoon due to the smog. (Smog season begins May 1)

Did you walk to school up hill in the snow too?

[Bridget Burke]

10. No hills in Houston. Very little snow.

But quite a bit of heat, humidity, pollen & pollution. (Ever hear of the petrochemical industry?)

Why couldn't they rent a secular hall?

[SharonAnn]

20. Here in East Tennessee, the only large facilities are churches.

We have almost no community amenities for the public to use. There are plenty of large church facilities, but that's about it.

We have a continual problem here with finding places for events and meetings.

[Az]

5. This is a very clear violation of Church and State seperation

The entire town could attend the same church and be of the same faith. Its still a violation of the Seperation clause. We are dealing with matters of freedom of the mind. When the state steps in and gives support to one belief over another they are violating the very meaning of the 1st ammendment.

[Baltimoreboy]

7. They rented the equivalent of an empty hall

That's all it is. If the school doesn't have sufficient facilities, then that's what they have to do.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

8. They couldn't rent a movie theater or something?

The fact that it's a Baptist church in Georgia gives one pause.

[Baltimoreboy]

9. Maybe they maxed out

Remember, not that many theaters rent themselves out for events. So there are a limited number of potential sites. The school system is lucky the church lets them hold the event there.

[RamblingRose]

12. This is a public school, so even if there were other buildings available,

which I can't think of any, it would be very expensive to rent one. The school mentioned in the article is one of the lowest performing schools in the county, and has a large multi-cultural population. I think it is also a Title I school. Some of the schools in the county are so overcrowded that kids begin eating lunch around 10:15.

[Az]

11. Ever been to a church?

They are pretty much designed to affect those in it. Unless the church was just a box it is probably riddled with religious icons. Not to mention the trouble of various faiths interacting with artifacts of other faiths.

There is a reason for Church State seperation. Its not just to make the atheists feel comfy. There are sects and denominations that believe amazing things about each other. There are beliefs that some would consider Evil incarnate. The government cannot favor one belief over another. It must remain clear of any entanglement otherwise they open flood gates that are difficult to close and impossible to manage.

It is clear that the church is being generous in offering the use of its facilities. But ask yourself this. If an Islamic Mosque offered the use of its hall what do you suppose the reaction would be.

In closing here are some questions to consider.

Do you believe there were no religious rites performed during their attendance at this building?

What do you suppose the communities reaction would have been if it was a Mosque offered instead of a Church?

What do you suppose a child that attended the Church but was struggling with their belief would have felt in being made to go there for a school event?

[Cursive_Knives512]

13. Here, here!

Well said.

[Cheswick2.0]

21. Paranoia strikes deep

Do you believe there were no religious rites performed during their attendance at this building?

Do you mean somewhere else in the building and the kids are getting God vibes through the floorboards? Or do you mean during the ceremony itself....because that is a whole separate issue and no one seems to be making that case.

What do you suppose the communities reaction would have been if it was a Mosque offered instead of a Church?

I think the community probably doesn't have a mosque. If they did, I see no reason to believe there would be a problem. But then I am not plagued with the irrational thought that all Christians are bigots.

What do you suppose a child that attended the Church but was struggling with their belief would have felt in being made to go there for a school event?

I think they wouldn't think twice about it. I think kids are thinking about other much more important things like if they have a pimple or if Tommy Brown is going to ask them out.

[Az]

22. Reality far afield

Lets start at the bottom and work up.



Yes, lets all assume that all kids are thinking the same thing. No child ever questioned what they were told. I once received a note in my chemistry book from a fellow student who obviously was concerned about "what Tommy was going to do" informing me that I had better "believe in god or else". Kids think about beliefs.

I think the community probably doesn't have a mosque. If they did, I see no reason to believe there would be a problem. But then I am not plagued with the irrational thought that all Christians are bigots.

We just had a situation here in Michigan where a group of unbiased Christians through a collective hissy fit because a group of Muslims were petitioning the city to be able to broadcast their call to prayer. It didn't matter to the Christians that their bells tolled on the hour every day. They were quite adamant about their displeasure at having to even tolerate the Muslims in the first place let alone have to put up with their call to prayer.

Or do you mean during the ceremony itself....because that is a whole separate issue and no one seems to be making that case.

This is mere supposition on my part. But it is worth noting that many times there is a prayer to start sessions in government institutions that should eschew such things. It is so common place that it is often overlooked. It doesn't make it right. And its potential inclusion in such a location exasterbates the issue all the more.

[RamblingRose]

23. Yes, I've been to many churches! Here are the answers to your questions.

"If an Islamic Mosque offered the use of its hall"
I would be thrilled. I've always wondered what one looks like inside. However, I can only think of maybe 2 Mosques in the county, and they are very small. I would have no problem going there, if they would allow a non-Muslim in.

"Do you believe there were no religious rites performed during their attendance"
From my previous experiences, I would say no religious rites will be performed. Many school choirs take advantage of the large churches in the area for their high quality organs, great acoustics, and size. I've never heard a prayer or seen anyone preach at one yet, except for the choir director or whoever to thank "x" for the use of their building.

"What do you suppose the communities reaction would be"
I would hope it would be positive, however I cannot speak for everyone. I think it could be a very positive thing to educate others and overcome our stereotypes.

"What do you suppose a child that attended the church but was struggling with their belief would have felt in being made to go there for a school event"
First, it is not a required school event, but a "promotion ceremony". I'm not sure when these ceremonies first started, but suspect they started in the upper class burbs. Secondly, I have taught my children that there are many religions, and no "one" is right, and no "one" is wrong. With that being said, we have lots of friends of all faiths, and we love learning about all of them, and respect their beliefs.

And for the most part, Baptist, Methodist & Presbyterian churches are not big into the idolatry. A Catholic church would be a bit harder to accept, since they usually have a large cross with Jesus nailed to it up on the altar.

If we are to become a society that truly accepts the beliefs of others and want to live together in peace, then we should to teach our children early to respect the beliefs of others, and not let it become a divisive issue.

[Az]

26. Society and Government

They are not the same thing. While I would recommend familiarising yourselves with all religions I would not recommend having the government do it for you. Its a bad mix. Take a look at what is going on in the Texas/UU thread. Texas just nixed a religion that has ties to our founding fathers.

As to how you raise your children that is commendable. But what about the Catholic children that are told by their Baptist friends that the Pope is the Antichrist? What about the Lutherans that mandate that its followers cannot partake in any other beliefs rites. What about the Jews that believe that Jesus is not the savious and have been prosecuted for millenia by the Cross and its bearers.

There are any number of reasons why you do not mix church and state. It is particularly aggrigious when done to children as they are still forming their beliefs and any pressure can sway them.

There are people that teach that all the other beliefs are false. Only theirs is the right one. Not all are as broad minded as you. They have the right not to have the government favor or promote any particular belief system.

[denverbill]

14. I vote in a 7th Day Adventist Church.

I consider it nice of the Adventists to donate their space and parking lot to an agnostic like me.

Nobody preaches at me.

No harm, no foul. I don't think it's a problem.

[Cheswick2.0]

19. I vote in a methodist church

I have never felt the urge to become one.

[PurityOfEssence]

15. It's another tacit reminder that god is necessary and religion is good

To the young mind--which is what you have to filter hypothetical experiences through--it's a subtle reinforcing that god is a concept that is endorsed by society. It will seem that they nobly lent their facility. It will seem that going along with this stuff is the only way to truly "belong". Those who already know the building will be the cool kids.

Beyond all that, monies will be being spent that go to a tax-exempt business that deals in guesswork and fancy. These monies could and should be spent for the school district.

I also find it impossible to believe that there isn't a suitable facility in the area that's not religious. Is there no large theater? No Elks Club or Masonic Hall or Community College or something like that?

Religious operatives positively slather at the opportunities to insinuate themselves and their beliefs into public life, and when it involves schools, it involves GOVERNMENT. Parents of people with no religion or with other religions shouldn't have to feel imperiled at mandated influence by what is usually the dominant local guess. (The most popular religion usually has the biggest place.)

"Little" things ARE important. It's an accumulation of this kind of crap that drives wedges in families, and that is deeply destructive.

[Cheswick2.0]

18. God is a concept endorse by society.... just not endorsed by government

but I know what you meant.
However I think it is strange you have a problem with a church and not a masonic temple.

[PurityOfEssence]

24. less trouble

Yeah, it's a belief system to a certain degree too, but it's also a secret society that doesn't actively shove its beliefs down the throats of others or even reveal them to the uninformed. Still, I would have less trouble with them being used than a full-on church; some, sure, but much less.

As for your header, I'm not quite sure what you mean. The supreme being belief may be embraced by 85% or so of society, but many of those believers accept the concept that their personal agreement with the assumption doesn't translate to society's agreement upon it, and they also recognize that government should stay out. More plainly, many who believe don't translate this as "our society believes", and they want government out of it.

[tnlefty]

16. Band Banquet

I was the chair of this banquet committee and we used the gym of a local Baptist children's home. I had brought up having a school function in a location away from the school, etc. It was discussed and our reason for having it there was that it was free and available.

The school system allotted a whopping $50 to the band program for this entire school year - what a bad joke! Monies from fundraisers (many) have to be used to pay for instruments, music, etc. and there was no money to pay to rent a place for this banquet. Families were charged a per person price to try to help cover the cost of food and I have over $400 in cash outlays that I may not turn in for reimbursement.

Lack of funds is part of the reason for this.

[Cheswick2.0]

17. Agreed

If they school has no place to hold it, it seems like a acceptable compromise to hold it in the church, Temple or mosque.

[RamblingRose]

25. Around here, it is the school's sports programs that get the money.

I was really surprised to visit the auditorium of one of the county's (& state's) top performing high schools. It was about the size of a cafeteria. I couldn't imagine having a concert or any other event there. Yet the same school has a huge athletic center, complete with jumbo-tron TV.

As much as I don't like the Baptist faith, I have nothing against their building. I honestly can't think of any other place to have the ceremony. Maybe Sugarloaf Country Club would allow the school the use of their facility!