I went to a HS graduation where they sang Battle Hymn of the Republic

[Sandpiper]

"They" being the High School choir. It was done in between the valedictory address and the presentation of diplomas. Mind you, this was a public school. The first girl to receive her diploma was obviously Muslim, based on her name (Arabic) and attire (head scarf). I can only wonder what she must have thought of the chorus's hymn to War and Jesus.

I found this choice of music entirely inappropriate for a public high school commencement ceremony. For those who aren't familiar with the Battle Hymn of the Republic, here's how the three verses that they sang go:

Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored,
He has loosed the fateful lightening of His terrible swift sword
His truth is marching on.

Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
His truth is marching on.

I have seen Him in the watch-fires of a hundred circling camps
They have builded Him an altar in the evening dews and damps
l can read His righteous sentence by the dim and flaring lamps
His day is marching on.

Chorus

In the beauty of the lilies Christ was born across the sea,
With a glory in His bosom that transfigures you and me:
As He died to make men holy, let us die to make men free,
While God is marching on.

Chorus

[Egnever]

1. Bah so what

its just a song

[Sandpiper]

2. Official School function +

School choir singing a christian hymn as part of commencement exercises with approval of administration = Endorsement of Christianity by a public school

[Egnever]

3. oh give it a rest allready

what effect do you think it had on anyone other than oversensative people looking for a reason to bitch about something.

you really believe some poor little child was all of a sudden swayed into believing in christ because of it?

and even if he was so what?

you know the basic morals laid out in christianity or prety much any religion for that matter are not bad. its people taking those religious ideals and twisting them that gets us all into trouble.

[Keebs]

4. Umm..

Since my whole family is Jewish, if this had been at mine or my sisters graduation I do believe my family would have been very offended about hearing about Jesus. I know it's really hard for some people to understand that the whole world isn't Christian, but couldn't you just try a little to pretend to care about someone elses beliefs instead of shoving it in my ear at a SCHOOL - aka, not church.

[Egnever]

14. Maybe you are over sensitive?

Half of my family is Jewish and yes I understand that everyone is not Christian. But is it really worth crying about?

There is a place for god in children's educations ignoring that these things are out there wont make them go away and again there is plenty of good in religion as much as there is plenty of bad.

this song is fairly innocuous its not like that were singing onward Christian soldiers or something.

[MAlibdem]

108. There is no place for G-d in public school.

Parents should be allowed to teach their children what they want, but only outside of school.

That there is plenty of good in religion is extremely subjective and forcing moral absolutes, especially religious ones, on children in public school is misguided and contrary to the goals of academic liberty.

[Sandpiper]

5. I'm sorry you have such a limited understanding of the first amendment

But to help you understand what the establishment clause is about, here's the "Lemon Test" given from the SCOTUS case of Lemon v. Kurtzman for determining whether an act by a government entity violates the first amendment:

1) The government's action must have legitimate secular purpose

2) The government's action must not have the effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion

3) The government's action must not result in an excessive entanglement of government and religion.

If it fails on any element, the act violates the establishment clause. Good luck finding the secular purpose of singing a hymn to Jesus at a high school commencement ceremony.

[Egnever]

18. I dont care what the constitutional definition is

its a petty thing to whine about.

[Sandpiper]

23. You've just dismissed yourself from any serious discussion

On the matter with this statement:

"I dont care what the constitutional definition is"

I guess my rejoinder would have to be: And I should care about anything you've had to say because...?

[Egnever]

26. I honestly couldnt care less if i discuss this with you

I wrote you off as taking you seriously after your first post.

[Sandpiper]

28. *YAWN*

[Egnever]

30. Back at you ZZZZZZZz

Your topic is crap and bores me to tears try your fanaticism on someone else.

[AgadorSparticus]

92. so why the hell are you posting on this thread if it "bores you to death"?

:eyes::eyes: if believing in the constitution means i'm a fanatic, then i'm a proud of it.

[homelandpunk]

116. thanks bebe....

"Mr. fuck-the-constitution" is compelled to spend his valuable time typing out responses to things he finds boring. If something is boring, I just leave it. Which is the normal response. Nor-mal.

[MAlibdem]

114. really, it doesn't make any sense...

if you don't care about it...why bother posting at all?

[RetroLounge]

61. "I dont care what the constitutional definition is?"

Wow, I hear that all the time, but never from Dems and never on this board.

:eyes:

RL

[Occulus]

88. hitting alert n/t

[DrWeird]

6. So if they taught your kid how to sing the morning prayer...

you wouldn't have a problem with that?

[Egnever]

16. thats apples and oranges man

but way to raise a huge straw man

[DrWeird]

21. Well, it's christianity and islam.

Which makes it more like Golden Delicious and Granny Smith.

So why don't you explain in a little more detail why christian songs are OK but muslim songs aren't?

[VolcanoJen]

27. Name one Patriotic Muslim Song written about the American Civil War.

I mean, c'mon now...

Do you really think a Muslim song nobody in Twin Falls, Minnesota has ever heard is going to go over well at a high school graduation?

Consider the audience... where's the showbiz? I don't intend to make light of this subject, but I just think this is one of those tiny things that seems more serious and urgent only in light of the current situation we're all intimately involved in.

We're on the same side, all of us... but honestly, I don't want to hear Muslim music that I'm entirely unfamiliar with at an already skull-numbingly boring high school graduation any more than I want to hear another crap senior singer attempting to belt "Wind Beneath My Wings."

[Egnever]

29. when did i say muslim songs werent?

I dont care what you sing its music not a torture session

[Vladimir]

58. Did it ever occur to you

that Moslem kids may not want to listen about the glory of Christ at their graduation?

[LetThemEatWar]

73. your unpopular opinions

will get you banned. get back in line!

[AgadorSparticus]

94. not "unpopular". but freeperish opinions will get you banned. yes.

[VolcanoJen]

7. I'm not religious, and yet that remains my favorite patriotic song.

If I had to pick just one, there's something about "Battle Hymn of the Republic" that stirs my American bones.

The theme of the song is anti-slavery, and first appeared, I believe, as a poem in the "Saturday Evening Post."

I wouldn't have had a problem with it, and given its historical context, I just don't view it as inappropriate.

CORRECTION:The song first appeared as a poem in the Atlantic Monthly, February 1862, actually. Thanks, Google!

[Sandpiper]

8. Ok, in light of the Lemon Test

Please explain to me the secular purpose of this song. Particularly the final verse.

[VolcanoJen]

9. I can only describe the song's emotional purpose, honestly.

Maybe you were offended. I can respect that, and I do. But speaking as a non-religious person myself, there is just nothing in that song that upsets me, and I don't mind it being sung publicly. I think of it as an historic song, a song to be taken in context. That's just my take.

"As he died to make men holy... let us die to make men free!"

I find that stirring, because the poet was specifically urging Christians to take up the fight against slavery.

Not sure what you mean by "Lemon Test," though.

[detoth1967]

11. Unconstitutional!!

There is nothing offensive about the song itself. Just as you would open up the Hymnal in any church and not find anything intrinsically offensive. The offensive part of the song is not in it's content but in it's message and the fact that it most certainly violates the 1st amendment. Religion has no part in government. And yes a public school is government. Worship whatever God you want where ever you want, but when the govt sanctions it, that is wrong! This is why the 1st amendment was included, because of a desire to escape from the church of England and their stranglehold on the government and people.

[VolcanoJen]

20. You pick your battles, I'll pick mine.

I like the song, and I view it as historical, and thus inspirational in message, to most people.

I'd rather hear a high school choir sing "Battle Hymn of the Republic" over the more politically-correct, and quite secular grad classic "I Sing The Body Electric" from the "Fame" soundtrack any day. But then again, that's just me.

I don't view it as unconstitutional, because nobody was cramming the Baby Jesus down anybody's throats. It's a beautiful song, regardless of the overtly-Christian lyrics. But I certainly wouldn't choose the performance of this song as an issue worth lobbying the school board over.

[Sandpiper]

35. That's nice

But it's still unconstitutional.

[Egnever]

37. So take em to court

See how far you get

[Cheswick2.0]

76. not it's not

the constitution says nothing about songs with the name Jesus in them.

[RetroLounge]

62. "I like the song, and I view it as historical"

another Civil War item just passed off as heritage...

RL

[JohnOneillsMemory]

75. Schools indoctrinate cannon fodder. That's an important issue.

The economic draft requires children to believe that the US military is doing God's work and 'defending our freedoms.' Schools and TV indocrinate American children to believe they are the master race just as sure as German children were in Nazi Germany.

Simple emotionalism is very effective. Ya think 17 year olds are reading the debate on the Iraqi War Resolution and Hans Blix and the International Criminal Court? Ya think they know what the Bill of Rights is or Geneva Conventions? Ask Pat Tillman. Oops, too late.

I just quit my rent-paying job over singing 'America the Beautiful!'
I now consider nationalist songs to be the theme songs of GLOBAL LYNCHING.

My band has been singing that song (whose lyrics ask for a better America) since 10/01 with a spoken tribute to the victims of 9/11 (people standing in audience weeping) and also "TO EVERYONE WHO HAS GIVEN THEIR LIVES TO DEFEND OUR FREEDOMS." This crowd-pleasing line is empty rhetoric with no relation to reality.

What happens is people only hear in the song what they want/are programmed to hear. Remember when Bruce Springsteen's 'Born in the USA' was used by Republicans despite the anti-American policy lyrics because people only heard the title repeated with big powerful drum hits?

So the propaganda net effect was to combine:
1) military snare march intro
2) victorious trumpet fanfare
3) red white and blue light show
4) spoken intro combining 9/11+ "defending our freedoms"
5) "America, God shed his grace on thee..."
6) talented African American singers plus lush orchestral arrangements

THIS ALL ADDS UP TO THE PROPAGANDA THAT HAD 69% OF AMERICANS BELIEVING THAT SADDAM HUSSEIN WAS INVOLVED IN 9/11 AND BROUGHT SUPPORT FOR THE WAR CRIMES.

You know who Leni Reifenstahl was? Made 'Triumph of the Will' beautiful propaganda film for Hitler? I felt I was doing work like hers.

I finally quit the band when they were booked by the NAACP to sing a tribute to the US military in Wash.DC in June

Children pick up the propaganda of the Christian Soldier Crusades because they don't have the rational information to see they are being bred to be cannon fodder and occupiers for the empire.

[progdonkey]

10. not a huge problem

I'm an agnostic and I'm extremely sensitive about Church-State separation. That being said, this sounds more like the people in the school just weren't thinking, as opposed to the school actively advocating Christianity. There are two prime reasons why I wouldn't get too riled up about this.


--As far as I can tell from your post, only the choir was singing. If the school were encouraging everyone else to sing, then I'd find it more offensive, but if it were just the choir, it's not a big deal.

--A simple truth you must understand is that almost 99% of choir material is not only religious, but specifically Christian in nature. If you expect a choir to avoid all songs that are religious in nature, you're limiting them to about 10 songs. Bach was one of the greatest composers of choral music, but it was all Christian. Should Bach be banned? The Battle Hymn of the Republic was practically the national anthem for quite a while. Just because it mentions Jesus, should we just say goodbye to a beautiful song sung by the Union?

[Sandpiper]

13. Absolutely

Just because it mentions Jesus, should we just say goodbye to a beautiful song sung by the Union?

Songs that are obviously religious should most definitely be excluded from commencement exercises. I found this choice of song to be about as appropriate as opening with a prayer would have been.

[Egnever]

25. This is exactly the kind of crap that gives the right wing ammunition

against the left. America is supposed to be about freedom. Not freedom as long as it doesn't offend anyones delicate sensibilities.

If your agenda is one to homogenize everything in America to a dull grey where no one is ever offended. I will have to take a pass and join the right in calling this out for the garbage it is.

Where does it stop? i like broccoli but you don't so I cant eat it in front of you? No thanks I will pass.

[Sandpiper]

31. *YAWN*

Read the constitution and maybe you'll learn something. Oh, wait a second. You don't care what the constitution says.

[Egnever]

34. Blah blah blah

Get over yourself and maybe every little thing you come across woint harm your delicate sensibilities

[Sandpiper]

38. You're all emotion, no substance

I think I can see your face getting red through my monitor.

[Egnever]

39. LOL

actually you are doing a fine job of keeping me entertained at the moment with your whining.

when you filing the case? or did you just come here for a pitty party?

[Sandpiper]

40. Thanks for making my point so succinctly

n/t

[Egnever]

41. my pleasure

I will now let this useless thread die the quick death it should have gotten to begin with

[Sandpiper]

42. And for doing it again

n/t

[thebigidea]

86. geez, I thought you were bored by this subject.

[RobinA]

125. It's Not About

the Constitution, it's about picking battles. I'm an atheist, I don't think a battle song is the most appropriate song for graduation, but this is a case of "live and let live" to me. You can't man the torpedos at every little thing. Save the ammo for the real fights, there are plenty these days.

[Cheswick2.0]

77. it's not obviously religious, it is obviously patriotic

you won't find that song in many christian hymnals anymore.

[Sandpiper]

96. It's obviously both

If you removed the religious references from the song, there would be no song.

[detoth1967]

17. Still Unconstitutional.

"That being said, this sounds more like the people in the school just weren't thinking, as opposed to the school actively advocating Christianity."

In this day of mass media and conservative media squealing about any criticism of their forcing of religion? Don't count on it. I don't believe in mistakes.


Bach banned? Sorry, that is an absurd leap. To simply BE Christian is not unconstitutional, if you used his hymns, of course it would. Sorry, there should be no advocating of any religion in any government setting. Read the constitution.

[progdonkey]

43. absurd?

"Bach banned? Sorry, that is an absurd leap. To simply BE Christian is not unconstitutional, if you used his hymns, of course it would."

I asked if Bach should be banned, you said it was an absurd remark, yet you then said performing Bach's choral music (all of which is hymnal in nature) at school functions is unconstitutional; effectively, that it should be banned from schools.

[Sandpiper]

47. It's all about the Lemon Test

Can there be a primarily secular purpose for learning about or performing the music of Bach? Certainly. Bach was one of the foremost composers of the Baroque Period, and it can be convincingly argued that no study of the Baroque Period would be complete without a study of Bach's music.

Now whether such a secular purpose can be found for singing a Christian hymn at a commencement ceremony is a bit more dubious. Especially when it was completely unrelated in content to anything else that took place.

[progdonkey]

48. dubious

I do agree that their use at a school commencement would be "a bit more dubious," as there's always the possibility that the principal and/or other school officials actually are trying to evangelize to the audience, but when the song in question has demonstrably important historical significance in this country or is a chorale from the greatest Baroque composer, I think it's more reasonable to just conclude that they wanted some nice music. :shrug:

If it were a hymn written by a living composer or a student, I would definitely question its use.

edit: spelling

[starroute]

68. You can avoid overt Christian references -- even in Bach

One year when I was in high school, we learned Bach's "Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring" to sing at an assembly -- but without the verse which starts with the title line. We only sang the verse that goes, more or less, "Through the way where hope is gliding / Hark what peaceful music rings / (something something something something) / Drink of joy from endless springs." It was beautiful and inspiring and mystical and not specifically Christian.

Now that I think about it, though, "The Battle Hymn of the Republic" is none of those things. As someone who is profoundly anti-war, I find the very idea of a "battle hymn" deeply repugnant. The imagery of "trampling," "wrath," "terrible swift sword," military encampments equated to altars, and "righteous sentence" sounds more like something out of the Bushite or fundie vocabulary than like anything with a recognizable connection to real religion. And the concluding exhortation of "let us die" (not let us fight, or let us struggle, or let us examine our consciences) simply seems like Victorian masochism.

It's also very bad poetry.

If we've got to have quasi-hymns, let's stick with hope, peace, and joy -- and leave out the smiting.

[Liberal Classic]

12. With all the crap I went through

One little 19th century abolition song would have been the least of my worries.

Where'd you get the idea you have the right to never be exposed to inappropriate concepts or be offended? I guess the choir could sing the theme to Barney the Dinosaur.

[Sandpiper]

19. How very interesting

One little 19th century abolition song would have been the least of my worries.

Ok, now that you've finished your knee jerking, I have the same question for you. What is the secular purpose of singing a song about Jesus at a high school commencement ceremony?

This isn't a question of a song being offensive. It's one of it being unconstitutional in the setting where it occurred.

[Liberal Classic]

22. Does art need a secular purpose?

Maybe I'm answering a question with a question.

[Sandpiper]

24. Please see Post #5

Re: Lemon v. Kurtzman

[Liberal Classic]

36. Is a hymn art?

In the general sense, what is the purpose of art? What is the purpose of the performance of the school choir? Entertainment or proselytization?



Here are the lyrics to the pomp and circumstance song, known in the UK as Land of Hope and Glory:


Dear Land of Hope, thy hope is crowned.

God make thee mightier yet!

On Sov'reign brows, beloved, renowned, Once more thy crown is set.

Thine equal laws, by Freedom gained, Have ruled thee well and long; By Freedom gained, by Truth maintained, Thine Empire shall be strong.

Land of Hope and Glory, Mother of the Free, How shall we extol thee, Who are born of thee?

Wider still and wider

Shall thy bounds be set; God, who made thee mighty, Make thee mightier yet.

Thy fame is ancient as the days, As Ocean large and wide

A pride that dares, and heeds not praise, A stern and silent pride

Not that false joy that dreams content

With what our sires have won; The blood a hero sire hath spent

Still nerves a hero son.

[Sandpiper]

46. Again, it's about context

If this song had been sung as part of a concert, it would have been very different. But it wasn't a concert, it was a commencement ceremony.

And seeing as how this particular school district draws its students from a very Republican community, I don't think for a second that it was a coincidence that they managed to squeeze an ode to Jesus into the exercises.

[Liberal Classic]

50. Please let me elaborate on my last reponse

If this song had been sung as part of a concert, it would have been very different. But it wasn't a concert, it was a commencement ceremony.

I'm left with the sense that you really didn't read my post.

Is this not the most artificial discinction? What defines a concert? How much music and singing must go on before a school function becomes a concert? Almost every graduation ceremony I have ever attended had some sort of live music, whether orchestra or choir. The one that didn't was a tiny 1-A school who played Pomp and Circumstance over the PA system, since they didn't have a full arrangement of instruments.

And seeing as how this particular school district draws its students from a very Republican community, I don't think for a second that it was a coincidence that they managed to squeeze an ode to Jesus into the exercises.

This is pure speculation. I find it implausible that the choir snuck in through the band hall and subjected the audience to a drive-by Jesusing. In all likelihood the choice of music was decided by the choir, and approved by the administration and the school board well in advance.

Since you were beating people over the head with the Lemon Test, I will cite your post here for completeness:

1) The government's action must have legitimate secular purpose

2) The government's action must not have the effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion

3) The government's action must not result in an excessive entanglement of government and religion.

If it fails on any element, the act violates the establishment clause.

Now, my response to this was to ask you:

Is a hymn art? In the general sense, what is the purpose of art? What is the purpose of the performance of the school choir?

Let me elaborate.

Is music art? Of course.

Is a hymn, even a religious one, music? Yes, of course.

Is a hymn art, then? I think so.

What is the purpose of art? I will say that if you could answer that in under a megabyte of text you'll be up for the pulitzer prize, but I don't think it is a trick question. Art generally stimulates the senses, and there are forms of challenging and disturbing art, but the point is that there's an emotional response. Some are good, some bad, though by and large most people seek pleasurable artistic pursuits. Colorful paintings, moving music, an engaging story. So I think we can in this limited context define one aspect of art as entertainment. I truly believe art transcends entertainment, but that is getting into the larger definition and if we go there we'll get distracted. Most people go to the art museum to be entertained. People go to movies and concerts to be entertained. There is more, but I'll work with this for now.

But, why play music at a commencement ceremony? What is the purpose of an artistic performance by students at a school commencement ceremony?

I think the plain answer is to keep it from being too boring.

Ergo entertainment.

So, for an artistic performance by students at a school commencement ceremony the piece being performed having a religious theme, does this excessively entangle the government with religion? How much is excessive? Obviously *you* found it excessive, but would the average, reasonable person find it equally excessive? There are standards of community judgement to consider. Maybe you do not hold by those standards, but one size does not fit all.

For an artistic performance by students at a school commencement ceremony the piece being performed having a religious theme, does this advance or inhibit religion? The Muslim student, was this person inhibited? Not made unconfortable, not exposed to some different ideas, but was this person advanced or inhibited by this piece of music? Did this music do anything to concretely advance Christianity and inhibit Islam?

Lastly, for an artistic performance by students at a school commencement ceremony the piece being performed having a religious theme, does this have a legitimate secular purpose?

What is the secular purpose of singing a song about Jesus at a high school commencement ceremony? If this song had been sung as part of a concert, it would have been very different. But it wasn't a concert, it was a commencement ceremony.

Every commencement but one that I have ever attended were concerts.

Can you imagine a graduation ceremony with no music?

Here's the real question:

Which one of your rights was violated?

Do the students singing the hymn not have first amendment rights as well?

Does the first amendment mean that we must expunge all religious messages from secular life?

No, it doesn't.

Now, had the audience been required to sing in order for children to receive diplomas, this would have been a clear violation. Or, if children had been required to sing in the choir to receive diplomas. This would also have been a clear violation.

As it was, no one was compelled to sing. No one was compelled to listen. No student was required by the school administration (read government) to engage in a religious activity in any way.

Unless simply hearing words like "Jesus" and "Buddha" pass through the eardrums and into the brain counts as an intrinsically religious activity, I do not believe that this choir violated anyone's rights, yours included.

Therefore after much typing I will repeat what I said at the beginning of this exchange that you do not have the right to never be exposed to religious messages of any kind. You do not have the right to never be made uncomfortable outside an airport by a Hare Krishna and you do not have the right to never once in your life open the door to a Jehova's Witness or Mormon. The government in pursual of the Lemon Test should take care not to go too far the other direction and respect the establishment of atheism, either.

I am sorry that this bothered you. As another poster said, this was an abolition song, with historical as well as religious significance.

Better to be able to raise your own voice in opposition than to silence others.

[Sandpiper]

87. I must respectfully disagree

The song was obviously religious in nature, and to say that it was okay because it was "art" or for "entertainment" and therefore had a secular purpose sounds to me like when the religionists try to say that the Genesis creation story should be taught in science classes because it has a legitimate secular purpose as an alternative view of the origins of life.

If the fact that it was a musical performance was the only requirement for making its purpose secular, it would have been equally appropriate for them to sing "Onward Christian Soldiers," "Oh God Our Help in Ages Past," "Amazing Grace," or "Precious Savior, Dear Redeemer," no?

And to answer your question, my right that was violated was my right for the state not to advance religion.

[kiahzero]

121. The question is not whether it is art

The question is whether or not it can be considered prayer.

prayer:
1.a. A reverent petition made to God, a god, or another object of worship.
b. The act of making a reverent petition to God, a god, or another object of worship.

2. An act of communion with God, a god, or another object of worship, such as in devotion, confession, praise, or thanksgiving: One evening a week, the family would join together in prayer.

3. A specially worded form used to address God, a god, or another object of worship.

So let's look at the Battle Hymn to the Republic:
Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored,
He has loosed the fateful lightening of His terrible swift sword
His truth is marching on.

Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
His truth is marching on.

I have seen Him in the watch-fires of a hundred circling camps
They have builded Him an altar in the evening dews and damps
l can read His righteous sentence by the dim and flaring lamps
His day is marching on.

Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
His truth is marching on.

In the beauty of the lilies Christ was born across the sea,
With a glory in His bosom that transfigures you and me:
As He died to make men holy, let us die to make men free,
While God is marching on.

Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
His truth is marching on.

Hell, let's look at the title:
hymn:

1. A song of praise or thanksgiving to God or a deity.
2. A song of praise or joy; a paean.


So, we have a song of praise of thanksgiving to the Christian God, talking about "a glory in His bosom that transfigures you and me."

Under the definition posted above, it appears that we have a prayer on our hands.

Under Lee v. Weisman (1991), prayers at school graduations are unconstitutional violations of the Establishment Clause.

The only question in this argument is whether or not the song constitutes a prayer. I think it does - you might disagree; if you do, please post your argument for why the song does not constitute a prayer.

[roach23]

123. well then

What if a southern state wanted to play the confederate song? I mean, we're not FORCING any black peope to listen to it, and we all like it, so if they are offended just too bad for them.(sarcasm duh)

[Cheswick2.0]

79. an ODE to Jesus....come on, I could give you lyrics to an Odes to Jesus

The Battle Hymn of the Republic hardly quailifies.

[VolcanoJen]

32. Liberal Classic isn't the one whose knee is jerking. (n/t)

[Egnever]

33. AMEN!

Snarf!

[Liberal Classic]

44. Thank you, Jen

:loveya:

[Cheswick2.0]

80. someone here once posted that they shouldn't even have to see a church

or a religious symbol such as a Yarmulke or a Cross, or Muslim head scarf (sorry can't remember what it is called). Fundamentalists come in every stripe, even the anti religious.

[Cheswick2.0]

81. someone here once posted that they shouldn't even have to see a church

or a religious symbol such as a Yarmulke or a Cross, or Muslim head scarf (sorry can't remember what it is called). Fundamentalists come in every stripe, even the anti religious.

[BlueJazz]

65. You can bet your sweet booties if the Choir had sang

...a song that had Anything to do with Muslim values or Buddhism the entire town would be rioting in the streets.

Any song that has the words...Glory hallelujah, His (God) truth is marching on.. doesn't belong in a tax supported school.

[Sandpiper]

101. You're absolutely right

If a song was sung that paid to tribute to some religious figure other than Jesus, Christians would have screamed bloody murder.

Any song that has the words...Glory hallelujah, His (God) truth is marching on.. doesn't belong in a tax supported school.

And you pretty much hit the nail on the head here. Most of the arguments I've read in favor of it being sung were totally beside the point, e.g.:

"It's a patriotic song." - That's nice, but it still has an overtly christian message

"It was the song of the Union Army" - Ditto

"It was art" - This wasn't a choir recital, it was graduation ceremony

[Cheswick2.0]

78. It's not a song about Jesus

His name appears once.

[Sandpiper]

89. Balderdash

It's the final verse that lets us know who the "Lord" is and whose "truth is marching on" in all the other verses.

[AntiCoup2K4]

72. Are you crazy?

That purple lizard would easily offend half the audience. I know the mere sight of him makes me :puke:

[DrWeird]

15. Depends on the context.

If they were using it for prostelyzation, sure it's bad.

If they're singing it because it's a nice song and it's a choir class, no problem.

No worse than playing nearly any classical piece in a school orchestra or playing "When the Saints Go Marching In" in the jazz band.

I'm also curious about what muslims think about the song, since they do in fact believe that Jesus is a holy figure.

[Sandpiper]

45. Context

This particular song was completely unrelated in content to any of the speeches that it followed, or to the event of commencement/graduation in any way, shape, or form. It was a musical interlude between the valedictory address and the presentation of diplomas.

If it had been a choral concert with patriotic music as its theme, it would have been a different story. In the context in which it occurred, it's nigh impossible to find a secular purpose for the singing a song about "The glory of the coming of the Lord."

[Liberal Classic]

53. Waitaminute, what about related content?

This particular song was completely unrelated in content to any of the speeches that it followed, or to the event of commencement/graduation in any way, shape, or form. It was a musical interlude between the valedictory address and the presentation of diplomas.


Where does it say anything of the sort about the content being "related" to the secular commencement.

All the standard specifies is a legitimate secular purpose.

A musical interlude does not qualify as a legitimate purpose?

Rather, it is disqualified because it has no relation to the commencement?

I don't understand what bearing "related content" has to the discussion.

[REP]

49. I'm Not Christian, and I Love The "Battle Hymn of the Republic"

You have put in bold my favorite verse, though the first is beautifully written.

"In 1861, after a visit to a Union Army camp, Julia Ward Howe wrote the poem that came to be called "The Battle Hymn of the Republic." It was published in February, 1862, in The Atlantic Monthly.

Howe reported in her autobiography that she wrote the verses to meet a challenge by a friend, Rev. James Freeman Clarke. As an unofficial anthem, Union soldiers sang "John Brown's Body." Confederate soldiers sang it with their own version of the words. But Clarke thought that there should be more uplifting words to the tune.

Howe met Clarke's challenge. The poem has become perhaps the best-known Civil War song of the Union Army, and has come to be a well-loved American patriotic anthem." http://womenshistory.about.com/library/etext/bl_howe_battle_hymn.htm

[asteroid2003QQ47]

56. I'm Not Christian either, and I Love The "Battle Hymn of the Republic"

It, along with the rest of the movie, sends a clear message in
“Inherit the Wind” (Spencer Tracy).
Context is everything!

[JohnOneillsMemory]

122. Context: TV Nation on a ChristianCrusade in the 'War on Terror' for oil.

(I'm copying my post #75 further down the thread because a song just cost me my job and I watched thousands of people react to it since 10/01. The theater of the song paralleled support for war crimes.)

Schools indoctrinate cannon fodder. That's an important issue.

Edited on Mon May-31-04 09:40 AM by JohnOneillsMemory
The economic draft requires children to believe that the US military is doing God's work and 'defending our freedoms.' Schools and TV indocrinate American children to believe they are the master race just as sure as German children were in Nazi Germany.

Simple emotionalism is very effective. Ya think 17 year olds are reading the debate on the Iraqi War Resolution and Hans Blix and the International Criminal Court? Ya think they know what the Bill of Rights is or Geneva Conventions? Ask Pat Tillman. Oops, too late.

I just quit my rent-paying job over singing 'America the Beautiful!'
I now consider nationalist songs to be the theme songs of GLOBAL LYNCHING.

My band has been singing that song (whose lyrics ask for a better America) since 10/01 with a spoken tribute to the victims of 9/11 (people standing in audience weeping) and also "TO EVERYONE WHO HAS GIVEN THEIR LIVES TO DEFEND OUR FREEDOMS." This crowd-pleasing line is empty rhetoric with no relation to reality.

What happens is people only hear in the song what they want/are programmed to hear. Remember when Bruce Springsteen's 'Born in the USA' was used by Republicans despite the anti-American policy lyrics because people only heard the title repeated with big powerful drum hits?

So the propaganda net effect was to combine:
1) military snare march intro
2) victorious trumpet fanfare
3) red white and blue light show
4) spoken intro combining 9/11+ "defending our freedoms"
5) "America, God shed his grace on thee..."
6) talented African American singers plus lush orchestral arrangements

THIS ALL ADDS UP TO THE PROPAGANDA THAT HAD 69% OF AMERICANS BELIEVING THAT SADDAM HUSSEIN WAS INVOLVED IN 9/11 AND BROUGHT SUPPORT FOR THE WAR CRIMES.

You know who Leni Reifenstahl was? Made 'Triumph of the Will' beautiful propaganda film for Hitler? I felt I was doing work like hers.

I finally quit the band when they were booked by the NAACP to sing a tribute to the US military in Wash.DC in June

Children pick up the propaganda of the Christian Soldier Crusades because they don't have the rational information to see they are being bred to be cannon fodder and occupiers for the empire.

[janx]

66. I love it too. When you think about how many soldiers died

trying to keep this country together back then, it gets even more amazing.

I have a photo of my great-great-great-great-(great?) grandfather on my living room wall. He was a captain in the Union Army. He and three of his sons died in that war. The youngest was fifteen years old.

[NoPasaran]

85. Count me as another non-believer who loves the Battle Hymn

It's a very moving song about the honorable work of liberation.

[kayell]

51. I totally agree with you Sandpiper

The words of this song are completely inappropriate at a public school graduation. I don't think it's a matter of a historical song either, although someone may have been inspired (!) to compare the civil war to Iraq and the "liberation" of the Iraqis to the freeing of US slaves. The song has always had a strong and knock-you-over-the-head obvious message of "Our (Christian) God is on our side, we are the righteous ones". The strong religious message looks to me like an clear violation of seperation of church and state.

Plus, its a dreadful, blood thirsty little song.

For contrast compare to Twains War Prayer.

The War Prayer
It was a time of great and exalting excitement. The country was up in arms, the war was on, in every breast burned the holy fire of patriotism; the drums were beating, the bands playing, the toy pistols popping, the bunched firecrackers hissing and sputtering; on every hand and far down the receding and fading spreads of roofs and balconies a fluttering wilderness of flags flashed in the sun; daily the young volunteers marched down the wide avenue gay and fine in their new uniforms, the proud fathers and mothers and sisters and sweethearts cheering them with voices choked with happy emotion as they swung by; nightly the packed mass meetings listened, panting, to patriot oratory which stirred the deepest deeps of their hearts and which they interrupted at briefest intervals with cyclones of applause, the tears running down their cheeks the while; in the churches the pastors preached devotion to flag and country and invoked the God of Battles, beseeching His aid in our good cause in outpouring of fervid eloquence which moved every listener.
It was indeed a glad and gracious time, and the half dozen rash spirits that ventured to disapprove of the war and cast a doubt upon its righteousness straightway got such a stern and angry warning that for their personal safety's sake they quickly shrank out of sight and offended no more in that way.

Sunday morning came-next day the battalions would leave for the front; the church was filled; the volunteers were there, their faces alight with material dreams-visions of a stern advance, the gathering momentum, the rushing charge, the flashing sabers, the flight of the foe, the tumult, the enveloping smoke, the fierce pursuit, the surrender!-then home from the war, bronzed heros, welcomed, adored, submerged in golden seas of glory! With the volunteers sat their dear ones, proud, happy, and envied by the neighbors and friends who had no sons and brothers to send forth to the field of honor, there to win for the flag or, failing, die the noblest of noble deaths. The service proceeded; a war chapter from the Old Testament was read; the first prayer was said; it was followed by an organ burst that shook the building, and with one impulse the house rose, with glowing eyes and beating hearts, and poured out that tremendous invocation -- "God the all-terrible! Thou who ordainest, Thunder thy clarion and lightning thy sword!"

Then came the "long" prayer. None could remember the like of it for passionate pleading and moving and beautiful language. The burden of its supplication was that an ever--merciful and benignant Father of us all would watch over our noble young soldiers and aid, comfort, and encourage them in their patriotic work; bless them, shield them in His mighty hand, make them strong and confident, invincible in the bloody onset; help them to crush the foe, grant to them and to their flag and country imperishable honor and glory -

An aged stranger entered and moved with slow and noiseless step up the main aisle, his eyes fixed upon the minister, his long body clothed in a robe that reached to his feet, his head bare, his white hair descending in a frothy cataract to his shoulders, his seamy face unnaturally pale, pale even to ghastliness. With all eyes following him and wondering, he made his silent way; without pausing, he ascended to the preacher's side and stood there, waiting.

With shut lids the preacher, unconscious of his presence, continued his moving prayer, and at last finished it with the words, uttered in fervent appeal,"Bless our arms, grant us the victory, O Lord our God, Father and Protector of our land and flag!"

The stranger touched his arm, motioned him to step aside -- which the startled minister did -- and took his place. During some moments he surveyed the spellbound audience with solemn eyes in which burned an uncanny light; then in a deep voice he said

"I come from the Throne-bearing a message from Almighty God!" The words smote the house with a shock; if the stranger perceived it he gave no attention. "He has heard the prayer of His servant your shepherd and grant it if such shall be your desire after I, His messenger, shall have explained to you its import-that is to say, its full import. For it is like unto many of the prayers of men, in that it asks for more than he who utters it is aware of-except he pause and think.

"God's servant and yours has prayed his prayer. Has he paused and taken thought? Is it one prayer? No, it is two- one uttered, the other not. Both have reached the ear of His Who hearth all supplications, the spoken and the unspoken. Ponder this-keep it in mind. If you beseech a blessing upon yourself, beware! lest without intent you invoke a curse upon a neighbor at the same time. If you pray for the blessing of rain upon your crop which needs it, by that act you are possibly praying for a curse upon some neighbor's crop which may not need rain and can be injured by it.

"You have heard your servant's prayer-the uttered part of it. I am commissioned by God to put into words the other part of it-that part which the pastor, and also you in your hearts, fervently prayed silently. And ignorantly and unthinkingly? God grant that it was so! You heard these words: 'Grant us the victory, O Lord our God!' That is sufficient. The whole of the uttered prayer is compact into those pregnant words. Elaborations were not necessary. When you have prayed for victory you have prayed for many unmentioned results which follow victory-must follow it, cannot help but follow it. Upon the listening spirit of God the Father fell also the unspoken part of the prayer. He commandeth me to put it into words. Listen!

"O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle-be Thou near them! With them, in spirit, we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with their little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it-for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen.

(After a pause)

"Ye have prayed it; if ye still desire it, speak! The messenger of the Most High waits."

It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said.

[Liberal Classic]

52. Here's a hypothetical

Would a Christian themed anti-war song have been better?

[RC]

54. Is there such a thing?

A Christian themed anti-war song? From what I know about Christianity, that would not be patriotic. At best a 60's anti-war thing. Christianity as practiced is a Conservative leaning belief system, as is Islam.

[starroute]

70. "Down by the Riverside"

Gonna lay down my sword and shield
Down by the riverside
Down by the riverside
Down by the riverside
Gonna lay down my sword and shield
Down by the riverside
Ain't gonna study war no more.

refrain

I ain't gonna study war no more,
I ain't gonna study war no more,
Study war no more.
I ain't gonna study war no more,
I ain't gonna study war no more,
Study war no more.

Gonna stick my sword in the golden sand;
Down By the riverside
Down by the riverside
Down by the riverside
Gonna stick my sword in the golden sand
Down by the riverside
Gonna study war no more.

refrain

Gonna put on my long white robe;
Down By the riverside
Down by the riverside
Down by the riverside
Gonna put on my long white robe;
Down by the riverside
Gonna study war no more.

refrain

Gonna put on my starry crown; Down By the riverside
Down by the riverside
Down by the riverside
Gonna put on my starry crown;
Down by the riverside
Gonna study war no more.

refrain

Gonna put on my golden shoes;
(ETC)
Gonna talk with the Prince of Peace;
(ETC)
Gonna shake hands around the world;
(ETC)

[Cheswick2.0]

91. you don't know much about christianity

But don't let that stop you from giving an opinion about what you don't know. It doesn't stop anyone else around here.


O GOD OF LOVE, GRANT US YOUR PEACE


O God of love, grant us Your peace,
Within each restless mind.
May all our inner turmoil cease,
God show us how to find
Your quiet rest, Your still, small voice,
Your light upon life’s way,
To walk with you our humble choice,
God give us grace to pray.

O God of life, grant us Your peace,
Both where we work and live.
Our ties of fellowship increase,
God, teach us how to give
A helping hand, a listening ear,
A message we may share,
So day by day and year by year,
God give us grace to care!

O God of hope, grant us Your peace,
Though all the earth choose war.
May global tensions now decrease,
God, lead us to adore
The way of Christ, and like our Lord,
Be merciful and just,
Surrounded by Your Living Word,
God give us grace to trust!

O God of all, grant us Your peace,
We share one human bond,
And so when others seek release,
God, help us to respond
To heal the sick, to seek the lost,
To set the captive free,
To serve and never count the cost;
May we live peacefully!




Here are some more hymns about peace:

Psalm 15: They Who Do Justice
Psalm 34: The Cry of the Poor
Psalm 68: You Have made a Home for the Poor
Psalm 72: Every Nation on Earth
Psalm 136: Your Love is Never Ending
Psalm 146: Happy the Poor in Spirit
Magnificat: Proclaim the Greatness of God
Walk in the Reign
Your Mercy Like Rain
Come to Set Us Free
Each Winter as the Year Grows Older
Night of Silence
Return to God
Jerusalem, My Destiny
Change Our Hearts
Jesu, Jesu, Fill Us With Your Love
Christ Has Risen
All Things New
Darkness is Gone
Up From the Earth
Envía Tu Espíritu
Spirit Blowing Through Creation
Send Down the Fire
Send Us Your Spirit
Alleluia, Sing!
Sing Out, Earth and Skies
God, Beyond All Names
I Will Lift Up My Eyes
Come to the Water
Come to the Feast
We Are the Light of the World
Be Light for Our Eyes
Praise to You, O Christ, Our Savior
Canticle of the Turning
I Need You to Listen
O Healing River
Song Over the Waters
Do Not Fear to Hope
I say "Yes" / Digo "Sí", Señor
Be Not Afraid
Where Charity and Love Prevail
No Greater Love
Eye Has Not Seen
A Touching Place
I Will Not Die
Bring Forth the Kingdom
Blest Are They
As a Fire is Meant for Burning
We Will Serve the Lord
Whatsoever You Do
The God Who Sends Us Forth
City of God
God Has Chosen Me
Here I Am, Lord
Anthem
I Am for You
The Summons
The Harvest of Justice
On Holy Ground
Let Justice Roll Like a River
We Are Called
Voices that Challenge
If You Believe and I Believe
World Peace Prayer
We Are Many Parts
They'll Know We Are Christians
Many Are the Lightbeams
The Broken Body
What Is This Place
Bless the Feast
All Evening
God of Day and God of Darkness
The Day is Near
For the Life of the World
Awake, O Sleeper
Bread for the World
Now in the Banquet
One is the Body
Healer of Our Every Ill

[kayell]

55. No, not in the context of the first amendment

The Battle Hymn of the Republic is not appropriate in a state supported ceremony because of it's religious message.

As other people included their personal like or dislike of the song, I expressed my feelings about it also. While it has a very rousing effect on the emotions, I am surprised so many here like it, as it has a very harmful message. I included the War Prayer as the best example I know of the opposite message.

Both the Battle Hymn of the Republic and Twains War Prayer could be appropriately used in a school in a discussion of historical attitudes towards war, and the Battle Hymn in a discussion of the Civil War (Twain's "Prayer" was written about the Phillipines). The Battle Hymn would be appropriate there as it was highly influential on peoples attitudes at the time. I am of course making an assumption (!) that this would be used in a discussion mode rather than as a message.

I am of course not pleased with the use of such a war-mongering song in a graduation ceremony (revving up the jobless grads to head over to the recruitment office?) and would prefer a peace oriented message, but in a state supported setting, both would need to be secular to avoid the 1st Amendment conflict.

[Sandpiper]

93. I've said nothing as to my feelings about the song

Only that it did not belong at a commencement ceremony.

It's certainly a rousing tune, but its message is inescapable. It's a hymn to Christian Holy War. How anyone could find a secular purpose for this song at a high school graduation puzzles me.

[kayell]

107. I realize that you haven't, but many others here have, and

seem to think that the fact that they enjoy it, makes it acceptable.

Rousing is not necessarily a good thing. Rousing is very useful though in riling up the populace to do what you want. Rousing is great in a piece of propaganda.

"It's a hymn to Christian Holy War." I absolutely agree. It is a hymn dedicated to the belief that "God is on our side and will destroy our enemies". IMO this is the most dangerous aspect of combining church and state - the righteousness that comes from a firm belief that whatever we do is right in Gods name, and that we are morally compelled to destroy those WE determine to be "evil-doers". Combined with the force and law-making ability of the state, this is a deadly combination.

"How anyone could find a secular purpose for this song at a high school graduation puzzles me." - The cynical (me? surely not me?) might say that a secular purpose would be to excite the passions of unemployed new grads to march on down to the local recruiting office.

[Sandpiper]

113. Something tells me that if I contacted the local ACLU chapter about this

They would not be amused.

On Edit: See post #111 for Twain's take on the Battle Hymn of the Republic.

[kayell]

119. Wow, that is great. Goes very well with his war prayer. nt

[Sandpiper]

90. No

A musical tribute to anyone's deity has no place at the commencement exercises of a public school, that includes Jesus, Yahweh, Allah or anyone else.

[AgadorSparticus]

99. no. a christian themed anything has no place in a public school

or government entity. likewise with any other religion. hence, separation of church and state.

[jpgray]

57. By your standards, a lot of Renaissance art could not be taught in school

A public school is a secular institution, but a great amount of Renaissance art is profoundly celebratory of Christian beliefs. Like the hymn, it is a piece of art and has intrinsic historical value, and therefore is not always intended as a method of proselytizing.

[DivinBreuvage]

59. IMO this song should be America's national anthem

Even with the references to Jesus and God.

[dsc]

60. My guess is the secular purpose was to honor our war dead

given that this presumedly was this weekend.

[janx]

63. Do you know the history of it?

You might be surprised...

[mitchum]

64. Do you mean "John Brown's Baby Had A Cold Upon Its Chest"...

as a kid growing up in the deep south, I only knew the parodic lyrics for a very long time

[Lydia Leftcoast]

67. As a life-long choral singer

I can tell you that all schools end up with the choir performing religious music, because that's the vast majority of the choral repertoire. As another poster said, omitting all religious music would leave you with very little to sing, except a few dozen sappy pop arrangements.

When my church choir performed Bach's B Minor Mass this past winter, we borrowed scores from...the University of Minnesota's music department. Everyone who majors in vocal music in college, whether their college is Notre Dame or determinedly secular Reed, ends up singing a large amount of religious music. It's part of the music department's mission, introducing their students to the history of Western vocal music, which is largely religious in origin. I've sung with paid singers in a church choir who were not themselves religious, and they willingly accept a pittance to sit through a church service every Sunday simply because they love performing the music so much. (I'm talking about Renaissance motets and the like, not the kind of "praise music" that is perpetrated by the suburban fundie churches.)

I have sung in choirs with people of all religions and no religion, and those who do not share the religious sentiments in the words simply ignore them and concentrate on the music--as I do, when a choir I'm in performs an Ave Maria or some other specifically Roman Catholic piece of music. I have also performed music that was written in Hebrew for performance by synagogue choirs on holidays that I don't personally celebrate. (I don't know about the choral traditions of other religions.)-

A couple of years ago, I belonged to a faculty-staff choir at a public university. When we performed at the holiday party, we sang a Christmas carol, a Chanukah song, a few secular novelties ("Calypso Jingle Bells"), and, in honor of the Hindu festival of Diwali, a choral arrangement of an Indian instrumental piece sung on "la-la-la." It was all good.

It would be problematic if public high schools still held required baccalaureate services on school property, a practice that was routine during my high school days, but I think that what was happening at that high school was that they wanted a patriotic song at graduation, and frankly, all the major ones have some religious references in them. The Battle Hymn of the Republic was perhaps not the best choice, if they have a significant non-Christian population in the school, but I'd cut them some slack on this occasion.

[Nikia]

69. Well my public high school graduation was even more religious

We even had clerymen give opening non secretarian opening prayers and benediction. At least two of the songs sung by the choir were Christian religious. The choir repetoire and clerymen were voted on by the senior class. If a member of our class would have had serious objections, these would have been omitted, Of course, in a Consevative community where most people are religious, perhaps there is peer pressure not to object.
As far as religious songs though, I went to a less rural school district in elementary school. In music class we sang religious songs, including Jewish and Muslim songs. No one had a problem with that.

[Sandpiper]

95. And my High School graduation started

With an overtly sectarian prayer to God in the name of Jesus. Having gone to high school in a bible belt town, this was standard operating procedure for most school functions.

FWIW though, this was also before the Supreme Court ruled this to be unconstitutional.

[bemildred]

71. It was a battle song of the Union Army in the American Civil War.

While I am not religious myself, religion was an important factor
in the abolitionist (anti-slavery) movement, and it is deserving
of respect for that. It is a fine hymn and a fine marching song,
and it sings of war in the cause of the American Republic, a
most worthy cause. It is not inappropriate at all, we still have
unfinished business from that time, if we are to make this truly a
free nation. The "conservatives" should be more careful in their
choice of background music.

[tabasco]

83. Well said and I completely agree.

The Civil War was the second revolution. I hope we don't have to fight a third to achieve the promises of the Bill of Rights. I think it belittles the Bill of Rights to use it to condemn a song which was the Union anthem during the Civil War.

[bemildred]

84. My regards, Sir.

It's nice to know there are still a few of us out here.

[progressivebydesign]

74. For what it's worth..

I would be offended too. This song is called the Battle HYMN.. it's a religious song. It's not the Battle SONG. Our schools, in the 70's, would have us sing things like this.. while I haven't too much of a problem with a borderline song, as part of a program... That song is far too religious for a school commencement. Religion will never be absent in school, but honestly, I believe the school knew what they were doing when they had the choir sing that song. My stepdaughter's "holiday" concert in her elementary school a few years ago featured two girls who had written an insipid song called, "His Name Is Jesus!". It was horrid, and it consisted of the girls repeating that line pretty much through the whole song, with a few things about being born on Christmas Day, and dying for their sins. I was not happy about that one. Though the teacher did one Kwanza song, I suppose she thought that balanced out that Jesus song. It was over the top. I have no problem, as I said, with some songs that are part of America's history, if they are not overtly religious. Battle Hymn of the Republic is over the top, and RIGHT UP THERE with Onward Christian Soldiers. It was a bad move on the school's part.. but not something to stay upset about.

Though I am not Jewish, I find it so offensive that everyone in this country acts as though we're all Christian. I'm not Christian, not Jewish, not athiest, I just am a person who is a good person.

[silverpatronus]

82. i find this entire thread to be...

a study in overreaction. good grief! pc has gone right across the spectrum and come out on the other side...

[immoderate]

97. I keep thinking of the artist who put the crucifix in the vat of pis

Was that religious art? Discuss.

One of my favorite versions of the Battle Hymn is by Dizzy Gillespie. It rocks!

Imagine if they had sung "When the Saints Go Marching In"

In short I agree with Silverpatronus. This is getting a little crazy. I loved singing this song in school. It was one of the few. It has a great sound. It never stopped me to progressing to become the free-thinking atheist I am today.

--IMM

[Sandpiper]

100. I'm glad you like the song

But it doesn't change the fact that it had an overtly Christian message and did not belong at a high school graduation.

[immoderate]

105. I made up for it...

...by not singing "Silent Night" that song sucked, although Ahmad Jamal did some good things with it.

It's the music.

--IMM

[JohnOneillsMemory]

120. I learned things in this thread. DU is good for that. Interesting times.

I think it's good that people see significance in things and connect them to history and contemporary context.

People are getting smarter about the power of propaganda and how it affects children. What happens in schools is a matter of life and death, not petty.

[BlueStateGirl]

98. We sang that song every year in Chorus. I didn't grow up to be

a Islam hating, Right Wing, boold thristy freak.

Wonder how I managed to avoid that?


I alwats took it for what is is... A hymn sung by the Union Army.

It was always one of my favorites.

Little did I know by singing it I was being indoctrinated to fught some Christian Holy War.

[DaveSZ]

103. In high school

One of my teachers had posters on the wall about Jesus.

I talked to him about it, but since I liked the guy I gave him a pass.

[DaveSZ]

106. I also went to a graduation ceremony as well

The other night, I went to a graduation ceremony as well in Austin.

The girl who led the pledge of allegiance didn't say, "Under God."

[Sandpiper]

110. Good for her

I'm sure it probably didn't go over well with a certain segment of the audience.

[Sandpiper]

104. As I've said before

This song was sung at a graduation ceremony, not a choir recital. Which means, every non christian student who was graduating and every non christian friend or family member who'd come to see them graduate, had a musical tribute to Jesus shoved in their ear at a secular, school sponsored event.

Violation of the establishment clause? Absolutely.

[ContinentalOp]

102. Count me in as someone who doesn't see what all of the fuss is.

If I spoke my mind about every religious topic here I would probably be labeled an "anti-christian bigot." And yet I have never thought of the Battle Hymn of the Republic as a religious song! Yeah, yeah it says "hymn" in the title but it's obviously a war song and a patriotic American standard. That nauseating "God Bless the USA" song is a thousand times more offensive and less historically relevant. Singing the Battle Hymn of the Republic in a school is really no worse than the word God in the Pledge of Allegiance or "In God We Trust" on the dollar.

[MAlibdem]

109. Look up Mark Twain's satire of the Battle Hymn of the Republic...

you'll love it

[Sandpiper]

111. You mean this one?

I think of the war in Iraq every time I read this.


Battle Hymn of the Republic (Brought Down to Date)(1900?) Mark Twain

Mine eyes have seen the orgy of the launching of the Sword;
He is searching out the hoardings where the stranger's wealth is stored; He hath loosed his fateful lightnings, and with woe and death has scored; his lust is marching on.

I have seen him in the watch-fires of a hundred circling camps;
They have builded him an altar in the Eastern dews and damps;
I have read his doomful mission by the dim and flaring lamps --
His night is marching on.

I have read his bandit gospel writ in burnished rows of steel:
"As ye deal with my pretensions, so with you my wrath shall deal;
Let the faithless son of Freedom crush the patriot with his heel;
Lo, Greed is marching on!"

We have legalized the strumpet and are guarding her retreat;*
Greed is seeking out commercial souls before his judgement seat;
O, be swift, ye clods, to answer him! be jubilant my feet!
Our god is marching on!

In a sordid slime harmonious Greed was born in yonder ditch,
With a longing in his bosom -- and for others' goods an itch.
As Christ died to make men holy, let men die to make us rich --
Our god is marching on.

[MAlibdem]

118. yeah...that one

it's about the Spanish-American War, but applies to today.

[immoderate]

112. Here's the antidote

I have it on no authority that next year the selection will be:

I don't care if it rains of freezes
'Long as I got my Plastic Jesus
Riding on the dashboard of my car.

Through my trials and tribulations
And my travels through the nations
With my Plastic Jesus I'll go far.
Plastic Jesus! Plastic Jesus,
Riding on the dashboard of my car

I'm afraid He'll have to go.
His magnets ruin my radio
And if I have a wreck He'll leave a scar.
Riding down a thoroughfare
With His nose up in the air,
A wreck may be ahead, but He don't mind.

Trouble coming He don't see,
He just keeps His eye on me
And any other thing that lies behind.
Plastic Jesus! Plastic Jesus,
Riding on the dashboard of my car ...

Though the sunshine on His back
Make Him peel, chip and crack,
A little patching keeps Him up to par.
When I'm in a traffic jam
He don't care if I say "damn"
I can let all my curses roll

Plastic Jesus doesn't hear
'Cause he has a plastic ear
The man who invented plastic saved my soul.
Plastic Jesus! Plastic Jesus,
Riding on the dashboard of my car ...

Once His robe was snowy white,
Now it isn't quite so bright -
Stained by the smoke of my cigar.
If I weave around at night,
And policemen think I'm tight,
They never find my bottle - though they ask.

Plastic Jesus shelters me,
For His head comes off, you see
He's hollow, and I use Him for a flask.
Plastic Jesus! Plastic Jesus,

Riding on the dashboard of my car ...
Ride with me and have a dram
Of the blood of the Lamb -
Plastic Jesus is a holy bar.



Well, I don't care if it rains or freezes,
Long as I have my plastic Jesus
Riding on the dashboard of my car

I could go a hundred miles an hour
Long as I got the Almighty Power
Glued up there with my pair of fuzzy dice
{Refrain - repeat between every verse}
Plastic Jesus, plastic Jesus
Riding on the dashboard of my car

Through all trials and tribulations,
We will travel every nation,
With my plastic Jesus I'll go far.
I don't care if it rains or freezes
As long as I've got my Plastic Jesus
Glued to the dashboard of my car,

You can buy Him phosphorescent
Glows in the dark, He's Pink and Pleasant,
Take Him with you when you're travelling far

I don't care if it's dark or scary
Long as I have magnetic Mary
Ridin' on the dashboard of my car

I feel I'm protected amply
I've got the whole damn Holy Family
Riding on the dashboard of my car

You can buy a Sweet Madonna
Dressed in rhinestones sitting on a
Pedestal of abalone shell

Goin' ninety, I'm not wary
'Cause I've got my Virgin Mary
Guaranteeing I won't go to Hell

I don't care what they say, I'm gonna
Keep on prayin' to that pink madonna
Melted to the dashboard of my car.

I don't care if it bumps or jostles
Long as I got the Twelve Apostles
Bolted to the dashboard of my car

Don't I have a pious mess
Such a crowd of holiness
Strung across the dashboard of my car

No, I don't care if it rains or freezes
Long as I have my plastic Jesus
Riding on the dashboard of my car

But I think he'll have to go
His magnet ruins my radio
And if we have a wreck he'll leave a scar

Riding through the thoroughfare
With his nose up in the air
A wreck may be ahead, but he don't mind

Trouble coming, he don't see
He just keeps his eyes on me
And any other thing that lies behind
{as refrain}

Plastic Jesus, Plastic Jesus
Riding on the dashboard of my car
Though the sun shines on his back
Makes him peel, chip, and crack
A little patching keeps him up to par

When pedestrians try to cross
I let them know who's boss
I never blow my horn or give them warning

I ride all over town
Trying to run them down
And it's seldom that they live to see the morning
{as refrain}
Plastic Jesus, Plastic Jesus
Riding on the dashboard of my car

His halo fits just right
And I use it as a sight
And they'll scatter or they'll splatter near and far

When I'm in a traffic jam
He don't care if I say Damn
I can let all sorts of curses roll
Plastic Jesus doesn't hear
For he has a plastic ear
The man who invented plastic saved my soul
{as refrain}
Plastic Jesus, Plastic Jesus
Riding on the dashboard of my car

Once his robe was snowy white
Now it isn't quite so bright
Stained by the smoke of my cigar

God made Christ a Holy Jew
God made Him a Christian too
Paradoxes populate my car

Joseph beams with a feigned elan
From the shaggy dash of my furlined van
Famous cuckold in the master plan

Naughty Mary, smug and smiling
Jesus dainty and beguiling
Knee-deep in the piling of my van

His message clear by night or day
My phosphorescent plastic Gay
Simpering from the dashboard of my van

You can buy Him phosphorescent
Glows in the dark, He's Pink and Pleasant,
Take Him with you when you're travelling far.

You can buy a Sweet Madonna
Dressed in rhinestones sitting on a
Pedestal of abalone shell.
Goin' ninety, I'm not wary'
Cause I've got my Virgin Mary,
Guaranteeing I won't go to Hell.

Rain and Snow are not an issue
long as I got my plastic Vishnu
Sittin on the dashboard of my car

When I'm goin' fornicatin
I got my ceramic Satan
Sinnin' on the dashboard of my Winnebago Motor Home

The women know I'm on the level
Thanks to the wild-eyed stoneware devil
Ridin' on the dashboard of my Winnebago Motor Home
Sneerin' from the dashboard of my Winnebago Motor Home
Leering from the dashboard of my van

I don't care if I'm broke or starvin'
As long as I've got a fish named Darwin
Glued to the trunklid of my car

God, I'm feeling so evolved
Drivin' with my problems solved
Proclaiming what I think of what we are

Riding home one foggy night,
With my honey cuddled tight,
I missed a curve and off the road we veered.

My windshield got smashed-up good,
And my darling graced the hood.
Plastic Jesus, He had disappeared.
{As refrain}
Plastic Jesus! Plastic Jesus,
No longer chides me with His holy grin.

Doctors in the X-ray room
Found Him in my darling's womb.
Someday, He'll be born again!

I don't care if it rains or freezes
Long as I got my plastic Jesus
Riding on the dashboard of my car

He's the dude with the rusty nails,
Walks on water, don't need no sails
Riding on the dashboard of me car

I don't care if the night is scary
As long as I got the Virgin Mary
Sittin' on the dashboard of my car.

She don't slip and she don't slide
Cuz her ass is magnetized
Sittin' on the dashboard of my car.

[Hippo_Tron]

115. Being Jewish, I would personally not be offended...

It's a song. And frankly, I think it's a good song.

[oasis]

117. The "Battle hymm" is an American traditional and inspirational piece.

People are graduating, there are not be indoctrinated.

[Nikia]

124. I have never been offended by other religions

I have gone along to some other religious services just to see what they were like and chose not to sing some of the hymns/songs because I did not agree with them and chose not to pray their prayers. I am not offended by hearing them.
There have been some prayers at public type events, not government sponsored but where the purpose of the gathering was not meant to be religious or attended by members of that religion, where I think they are offensive. I don't think, for example, that an athletic contest held at a religious college against another college, especially non religious, should pray that people accept that particuliar religion or that others who don't believe should turn away from their ungodliness. I don't think that it is offensive though if they pray that no one gets hurt and that it is a fair contest though.
As far as songs, popular choir songs like the one mentioned, usually aren't negatively offensive.
On the otherhand, who am I to tell anyone if they should be offended or not?

[Jane Eyre]

126. Courts: Lyrics exempted from prayer in school ruling

I recall that the courts ruled on the issue of whether public school choirs could continue singing such religious-themed songs as "The Battle Hymn of the Republic". It was ruled that public schools could indeed continue teaching choral groups such songs because it would be nearly impossible to teach music in a historical and artistic context without the including the large body of religious music which has been written over the centuries.

The fact is that the separation of church and state is a relatively new concept, historically speaking. Some of our greatest composers wrote mostly or only religious music. You can't teach students to truly appreciate great music without including religious music.

The question here is whether or not the presentation of "The Battle Hymn of the Republic" at the graduation was meant as religious indoctrination or as a broader inspirational expression of our historical struggle for freedom. I think it was the latter. I fully support the ban on government-sponsored prayer in school, but I support the teaching of music and the arts in school and you just can't do that without getting some religion mixed in. By the way, I also think that schools need to teach music and art from a variety of religions, but much of Western art and music deals with Christian themes.