Are "hybrid" cars a rip-off?

[ringmastery]

http://cbs.marketwatch.com/news/story.asp?guid=%7BB21CF567-A36C-4EF0-8E64-D8177D37D004%7D&siteid=google&dist=google

The 2004 Prius, touted on Toyota's Web site as Motor Trend's Car of the Year, produced 55 miles per gallon in combined city/ highway driving in the EPA tests. The hybrid Civic yielded 47.5 mpg. Consumer Reports found the Prius averaged 44 mpg overall and the Civic got 36 mpg -- about 11 mpg less than the EPA ratings.

In the case of the Civic, the hybrid version averaged just 7 mpg more overall than the gas-engine model, a disturbing discovery for cost-conscious buyers who could have purchased a base-model Civic for $6,000 less.

[jayavarman]

1. I'd read the same thing . .

I love the idea of hybrids, but was disappointed to hear that the mileage numbers seemed to be hyped.

FWIW the Jetta TDI supposedly gets 45mpg or so.

[Cronus Protagonist]

2. Maybe they're a metaphor for the Bush administration

Looks good on the surface, the marketing claims seem great but the numbers don't add up because they're lying to sell a product and the leftist message sells more product than the truth.

Click here for "HERO KERRY ZERO BUSH", "VETERAN KERRY AWOL BUSH" and other fair and balanced yet stunning, insulting, shocking, funny buttons, magnets and stickers

[physioex]

3. Hmmm...My 0.02cents

Let the technology improve furthur. The cars are more complicated than a conventional vechicle and more expensive. In the mean time it might be better to go with a VW TDI (Turbo Diesel Injection). These cars are very fuel efficent, and can be run on biodiesel. Do a google search and find out the nearset biodiesel stations to your place.

[TexasProgresive]

4. I heard a report on this - the problem is the EPA

and the way they compute milage. By law the car makers cannot advertise any milage but the EPA test results. This was to prevent fudging by the auto makers in the other direction. Toyota is aware that the EPA milage is incorrect and is making buyers of the Prius unhappy but their hands are tied.

[rfjockey]

9. Actually, they can't advertise any mileage higher than

the EPA test result. They are free to advertise a lower number. I have read that the VW TDI actually got 60mph (hwy) in the EPA test, but VW advertises it at 49 because that was more representative of what a typical driver would obtain, and they didn't want disappointed customers.

[jayfish]

27. Here Is The Report You Are Thinking Of.

Click The Speaker Icon

It is an NPR ATC interview with the Editor & Chief of "Car & Driver Magazine", Csaba Csere. It is 4min 39sec's long. (Pronounced "Chubba Chedda")According to him, you are correct.

Jay

[trogdor]

5. Everybody knows the EPA tests are strictly "white hat."

CU, Motor Trend, and Car and Driver, OTOH, "black hat" the holy piss out of every car they test drive. If you still get 44 MPG after driving the Prius like Brock Yates (chances are you do not), you're doing goooooooooooooooood.

Methinks the US auto industry is running these articles in an attempt to discredit a new technology they want nothing to do with. They've done it many times before. Take it with a grain of salt.

[spanone]

6. I've got the civic and average 46mpg.

[RapidCreek]

32. How do you like it? I've been thinking about buying one!

RC

[noahmijo]

7. From the accounts I read the stories are both true and false

In some cases where temperatures range extreme such as areas of constant coldness, the engines have to work harder thus causing an increase in actual fuel usage.

I remember reading one account by a fellow in Seattle in the Yahoo reviews section where he stated that his Honda Civic hybrid met its claimed mileage during spring, summer, and fall months, but during the winter time the mileage decreased by about 7 mpg.

I still have my sights set on getting a hybrid SUV someday (it's for the purposes of sport I plan on being an avid outdoors person and having a family someday in a place that snows alot and has lots of hills it's not for status)

I like the way that new Hybrid Escape from Ford looks.

[madrchsod]

11. fords new suv is based

on toyota`s new drive system-save your money and place your order early they are going to be very popular...
toyota has a "hot water bottle" that instantly heats the engine so there is no decrease in effincey from a cold engine

[ContinentalOp]

18. Supposedly...

Supposedly the Ford SUV isn't going to have much better mileage than the regular version. Like maybe 2 mpg better. The benefit in buying these cars is the reduced emissions. If you really want better gas milage you still shouldn't be buying an SUV.

[noahmijo]

28. Actually it's supposed to way better

Around 35 mpg vs about 19 mpg.

Secondly I already stated why I'd prefer an SUV. The girl wants a civic hybrid, but I want an SUV hybrid not for status but for practicality.

Not everyone wants to live where it never snows or rains and there's no hills and no recreational activities to be found.

[eridani]

8. I remind you of the old Internet acronym--

Your Mileage May Vary

[madrchsod]

10. i just read an article in the chic trib

about the 2004 prius-truly an amazing techno car..better fuel economy in town-60- than highway 50-55. if i had 18000+ i`d buy one tomorrow...

[KittyWampus]

12. Funny-These Reports Come Out The Same Time SUV/Hummers Sales

are declining due to high gas costs.

[tridim]

13. So what's the story with the VW TDI?

It's advertised as 38/46mpg. I don't think those numbers are fudged, right? Are there downsides to the turbo diesel that I'm not aware of?

[jobycom]

16. Diesel is bad on the environment.

Diesel polution is worse than gas, so the mileage is good, but the emmissions are bad.

Diesel hasn't gone up as much as gas, though. Have you noticed? Which makes me suspect that this gas spike is engineered by someone. It's not affecting electricity or diesel nearly as much as gasoline yet. Sometimes I think I smell an Enron.

[ContinentalOp]

19. Hmm...

"Which makes me suspect that this gas spike is engineered by someone."

Someone. Hmmm, I wonder who that "someone" is? :)

[physioex]

22. They are all one in the same...

From crude oil you get Motor Oil, Kersonse,Jet Fuel, Diesel, Gasoline, and Liquid Petroleum Gas. It just depends on the level of refinement. Diesel is a bit cheaper because it is less refined. There is new technology in the market which has low sulfur diesel which is cleaner than the pervious diesels. One of the few positive things that was accomplished under Bunnypants. You can run Diesel cars on Biodiesel which comes from cooking oil. Yes it is a bit more expensive, but it runs much cleaner than all other fossil fuels.

[tridim]

24. I've also read that the TDI engine

is actually cleaner (CO2 and CO emissions) than high efficiency gas engines. No idea how VW does it, but they do. It's legal in California, so nuff said.

[jobycom]

26. True on biodiesel

Cleaner. But petro diesel doesn't burn as clean as gasoline, still. That's why hybrids are more popular for the environment.

As for which reduces dependency on oil the most, I'm not sure.

[jobycom]

14. Consumer Reports is the scam

Every time I've looked at their recommendations they've been bogus. I used to work with luggage, and they did a luggage comparison. They recommended the absolute worst brand on the market, Samsonite, a brand that everyone in the industry thought of as garbage. They ignored another case, Delsey, even though it did better in all of their tests, according to their raw numbers.

I've seen that time and again with them. I don't know who buys them off, but someone does.

Notice what they've done here. They have compared worst case hybrid numbers with the EPA estimates of other vehicles. I've never seen a car come within 10% of the EPA numbers on a consistent basis.

If I drive my hybrid the way I've driven other cars, I get about 45 MPG, and that's in Texas, where the AC is always one. I never got EPA mileage on my other cars driving like that. If I drive carefully, I get 48-50 MPG, and if I try, I can get 55-60, though it it is hard in the summer.

They are good cars. Someone is up to something with all these negative reports.

[ContinentalOp]

15. It's not a scam or a rip-off...

The problem is in the EPA test procedure and the differences in people's driving styles. Check out this site for a good discussion of the topic...
http://www.hybridcars.com/epa-numbers.html

[Career Prole]

20. That's better than the one I found!

Also from yours:

http://www.hybridcars.com/basics.html

:hi: Welcome to DU!

[ContinentalOp]

23. That site seems pretty good.

It seems like a pretty good primer on hybrid cars though I suspect it's probably paid for by Toyota or Honda. It's just too nicely designed and organized to be created by an enthusiastic individual. But the info seems alright.

And thanks for the welcome. I've been here for a while but just don't post a lot. I guess I'm trying to change that now :)

[Career Prole]

17. here's Toyota's take on the subject...

From another board...
A post:
I want to thank Michelle Vadeboncouer for transcribing this fax for us today! It's a handout from Toyota to us "salespeople" that responds to the Prius mileage and EPA ratings.

page 1:

University of Toyota
Hot Sheet
The Latest Automotive Information for You and Your Customers
February 2004

Prius Fuel Economy: Explaining the EPA Ratings

The 2004 Prius is attracting a large audience that may be new to hybrid
technolgy. Although this vehicle offers remarkable engineering,
outstanding packaging and very low emissions, prospects may be most
impressed by the fuel economy figures. Therefore, it is important that
all sales consultants understand what the EPA-estimated mileage figures
mean and how they should be used. It is equally important that customers
understand this as they make their buying decision.

The EPA mileage figures posted for all vehicles, including Prius, are
estimates. The EPA-estimated ratings for Prius are 60 mpg city, 51 mpg
highway and 55 mpg combined. However, many factors, including weather, tire pressure, terrain and vehicle load, will affect fuel economy. For these reasons, Prius drivers may not achieve the EPA estimates in
real-world driving...
More at http://priuschat.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1206&highlight=

One reply:
Thanks, Dianne.

As if you haven't been taking enough of a beating with the supply issue...

If you ever need someone to back up the EPA estimates then give me a call. I'm getting 55 MPG on my current (third) tank in combination driving and am totally satisfied.


My take on the situation...first, EPA ratings are always wrong on the high side.
Secondly, hybrid cars are a new technology that drivers in most cases aren't able to take full advantage of right away because of their inexperience. It takes practice.
The story mentions one trick for driving in stop and go traffic, but there are others. For instance, part of the load on the gasoline engine is generator load caused by charging the batteries. The Prius has a Dynamic Braking position on the gear shift which the driver can use on downhill stretches to charge the batteries using nothing but gravity as the energy source.
There'll be a learning curve...how many people out there can't drive a standard transmission? :)
I still think it's a good standby technology until we can get a better technology off the ground, and I still intend to try to buy one for my next car.

[leesa]

21. My Prius does just what it was billed to do. Do you think this

could be propaganda by the producers of gas-guzzlers? What think??

[Career Prole]

25. Four years ago I might've said "No way!"

Now I say "Quite possible."
This crew is pretty touchy when you mess with the future profitability of the "awl bidness".

[Zinfandel]

29. Are the OIL companies rip-offs?

Seven to Ten miles PER GALLON is better than what BushCo and the OIL companies are offering, it's not enough, but it's something.

It adds up.

[Fear]

30. Recycling of the Hybrids is supposedly very hard on our

environment as well.....we're not there yet, why not buy one of these!

http://www.smart.com/

[AP]

31. They produce less polution too. It's more than just mileage that

gets people to buy them.

A Beetle and the Civic might get roughly the same mileage, but the Civic's greenhouse gas emssions are 20% lower.