Whose integrity do you respect more: Hugo Chavez or John Kerry?

[genius]

Even though most or all of us plan to back Kerry in the general election, he needs to learn more about Hugo Chavez. The oil companies in Venezuela used to own everything in Venezuela, making the vast majority of the people poverty-stricken. Despite threats on his life, future and safety, Hugo Chavez nationalized the oil companies in Venezuela so that the people could have an increased standard of living and so that the oil executives could not just loot the country's resources for the benefit of the few. Chavez has enjoyed the support of 70% of the Venezuelan people. The concerns about the referendum process are that Choicepoint (the company that helped Katherine Harris disenfranchise African-Americans in 2000) is helping the opposition to Chavez and the Bush forces are strongly supporting the opposition to Chavez.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

1. Good example of why your posts are helpful to Bush

no doubt you mean well, but the effect is divisive and plays right into the hands of the Republicans.

[genius]

2. Bush is on the wrong side of this issue. Kerry needs to get on the right

side.

[redqueen]

3. BS

IMO this only helps.

It offers a bit of perspective to any swing voters who might be so foolhardy as to consider not voting for Kerry because he's 'too liberal'.

:)

[Alerter_]

9. exactly, we're helping Kerry triangulate

If the "Centrists" actually ate their own dogfood (which they don't) they would be happy the left is attacking Kerry, giving him credibility with the pro-war, anti-poor, pro-corporate "swing voters" that people still believe exist.

[redqueen]

14. hahahahahaha

'ate their own dogfood'

Thanks! I needed that. :D

[Vladimir]

10. That's not only funny, its also true n/t

[Alerter_]

8. good example of Kerry helping oil companies and screwing the poor

I'll admit it - if it was Kerry vs. Chavez I'd vote Hugo. Kerry is 100% WRONG to take the opposition's side in Venezuela.

[debsianben]

11. I'm Confused

It helps Bush to say "I'll vote for Kerry, but I think he's wrong to side with Bush on Venezuela"?!?!? I don't think think a critique of the Bush/Kerry consensus on Venezuela is going to drive anyway to vote for Bush.

[FlemingsGhost]

12. Ooooooo... and the freepers will use it against us, too.

And now, the good news and the bad news:

The only ones paying *that* close attention to DemocraticUnderground, is DemocraticUnderground.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

123. Hi.

:hi:

[madrchsod]

4. i`ll respect kerry when

he starts comimng up with realist programs to save this nations ass,untill then, he`s just a better skull than bush

[blm]

5. There is no productive function in this poll, so I'll take a pass.

Nothing personal, genius.

[Bombtrack]

6. Hmm, a person who idolizes JFK or a person who idolizes Fidel Castro

these results are pretty sad.

[jayavarman]

13. Word

I'm not expert on venezuela, but hasn't Chavez been trying to silence his opposition recently? Questioning the validity of those petition names just like the felons in FLA were hassled?

[Imperialism Inc.]

15. Chavez said Kerry reminded him of JFK.

From old Reuters article:
The Kerry statement on his Web site made front-page news in Venezuela on Monday, nearly two weeks after Chavez had publicly praised the Democrat contender, hailing his health care plans and likening him to assassinated U.S. President John Kennedy.

Rough paraphrase of Kerry's response:

"Close your mouth you dictatorial terrorist supporter. I hate you, I hate you, I hate you. Your programs, that aren't all that different from JFK's old Alliance for Progress, are the signs of a mad man bent on creating a totalitarian society."

Alliance for Progress
http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/A/AlliancP1ro.asp
U.S. assistance program for Latin America begun in 1961 during the presidency of John F. Kennedy . It was created principally to counter the appeal of revolutionary politics, such as those adopted in Cuba (see Fidel Castro ). It called for vast multilateral programs to relieve the continent's poverty and social inequities and ultimately included U.S. programs of military and police assistance to counter Communist subversion. The charter of the alliance, formulated at an inter-American conference at Punta del Este, Uruguay, in Aug., 1961, called for an annual increase of 2.5% in per capita income, the establishment of democratic governments, more equitable income distribution, land reform, and economic and social planning. Latin American countries (excluding Cuba) pledged a capital investment of $80 billion over 10 years. The United States agreed to supply or guarantee $20 billion. By the late 1960s, however, the United States had become preoccupied with the Vietnam War, and commitments to Latin America were reduced. Moreover, most Latin American nations were unwilling to implement needed reforms. The Organization of American States disbanded the permanent committee created to implement the alliance in 1973.

[AP]

19. Castro thought JFK was the best president in Castro's lifetime. BTW.

JFK would have loved Chavez too (did you see the Alliance for Progress thread yesterday?).

[stickdog]

22. A person who helps the poor or a person who helps the elite.

The results of globalism are pretty sad.

[Bombtrack]

27. So you like the Castro model of government?

Gee aint authoritarianism great

[AP]

39. At least the part about kicking out the facists is pretty cool.

[Mika]

42. Castro Castro Castro Castro Castro Castro Castro Castro Castro Castro

Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that

Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba
Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba
Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba Castro's Cuba

(((((yawn)))))


Pretty tiresome.

[Vladimir]

54. Go Castro, go Castro, go Castro, go Castro n/t

[Mika]

60. Bombtrack, do tell us what the "Castro model of government" is. Thanks

Please describe what you think the Cuban system of government is (or hook us up with a link or two).

Thanks.

[Mika]

82. I'm still waiting, Bombtrack

Please describe what you think the Cuban system of government is.

Thanks

[redqueen]

157. Kick for curiosity

:kick:

[Vladimir]

162. And another

:kick: oh go on, do tell us. I want to know.

[Forkboy]

167. telling,isn't it?

:)

[Mika]

163. Bombtrack - no description of the "Castro model of gov" yet?

Just for the sake of the discussion, I was simply interested in what you think the "Castro model of government" is.
That way one could fairly answer your question.
Otherwise who knows what you mean by the "Castro model of government"? :shrug:

Thanks again.

[camero]

76. Like we don't have that here?

Globalization is a greater threat to democracy than just about anything.

[tinanator]

100. vive Fidel

anything that rubs you the wrong way has gotta be good.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sandnsea]

16. Economy worse in Venezuela

1998 31.3% below poverty, 2002 47% below poverty

1998 Inflation 29.9%, 2002 31.2%

1998 GDP growth -0.9%, 2002 -8.9%

1998 purchasing power $8500, 2002 $5500

The only thing that's improved is unemployment, which has gone from 17% to 11%; but that's not particularly helpful if you aren't earning enough to buy anything. Which, frankly, is usually what happens when you convert completely to socialism.

Chavez has gone too far and it's no wonder there are people who are protesting his governance. He needs to listen. I can't understand anybody thinking any one political system has all the answers to governance.

[AP]

20. Staple items prices are fixed in VZ. The poor are doing better.

Why do your numbers stop at 2002?

[Bombtrack]

30. Yeah and millions of more people are poor

because everything that everybody had is worth 80 percent less.

[AP]

33. They have land, schools, and jobs NOW. I'm sure they're happier.

You know gas is 19 cents a gallon in VZ, right?

[Bombtrack]

40. Yeah, which is why gas station owners are making absolute shit for

earnings.

[AP]

43. What? Gas station owners of the world unite and take over!!!

Are you seriously saying that land reform, building schools, transferring economic, cultural and political power to the poor is all bunk unless the gas station owners are living large?

[stickdog]

58. Not gas station owners, per se, but their owners.

You know, Big Oil.

[AntiCoup2K4]

80. And when we're done with that, can we hang the blessed (corporate) DJ's?

...after we burn down the disco, naturally.

Hey, are you really Morrisey? ;)

[Vladimir]

68. My heart bleeds n/t

[sandnsea]

31. Lock-outs, boycotts, protests

It really isn't fair to do a comparison with 2003 to other years.

[AP]

35. The coup was in April 2002. The strikes in 2003. First quarter '04 was up

apparently. PDVSA has record profits this year. Ploughing tons of money into social programs which are building up wealth and power in the bottom four quintiles.


Why don't you get those numbers for us. The onese comparing the fascist years to first quarter 04.

[sandnsea]

38. Here

http://www.latin-focus.com/latinfocus/countries/venezuela/venunemp.htm

[AP]

41. Too funny. What's the y axis?

[AP]

37. Oops. Post 26 has the 2004 numbers. Best in Latin America. Hmm.

No wonder you need to rely on 2 year old numbers.

[stickdog]

23. Your analysis is full of shit.

The poor are doing better in Venezuela and Kerry knows it.

[Imperialism Inc.]

26. How Reuters Converts ...

How Reuters Converts the Largest Economic Growth of Latin America into Bad News

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1167

This past April 22 the economic news about Venezuela was the International Monetary Fund’s revelation that the country was heading for an economic growth rate of between 9 and 10% for 2004, which would situate Venezuela as the country with the largest economic growth of Latin America.

In order to say this, Reuters puts its headline like this: “IMF Says Venezuela Will Not be Able to Maintain Current Economic Growth in 2005”

Without a doubt, this figure is explained with the recuperation from the oil industry strike of last year. Nonetheless, the Reuters teletypists did not remember this when they intensely distributed the bad economic figures of 2003.

--cut--
Without a doubt, these are surprising commentaries to accompany the news of an economic growth of 8.8%. Imagine what they would say if the Chavez government had suffered bad economic news.

(more)

Which just goes to show what kind of job the western media is doing re:Venezuela.

[redqueen]

32. Wow

Just... wow.

:(

[sandnsea]

34. Well, no duh

Like I said, you can't compare 2003 to other years because of all the protesting. Obviously the economy is going to grow this year from last because it is calmer, even with the election stuff going on.

[AP]

44. So you want to hold the coup year against chavez, but you don't want to

praise him for what he gets done in the calm year?

Lord.

[sandnsea]

47. Not the point

I didn't compare 2003 because I didn't think it would be fair. 2003 was much more unstable than 2002, even with the coup. But that doesn't change the fact that their economy was still better back in the fascist years than it is now, even in 2004.

[AP]

49. The coup was in April of 2002. The rich have done everything

they could to sabotage Chavez ever since Bush took power. That Venezuela is doing better than all other SA nations during the Bush administration and after all that sabotage from Wall St and from their own upper classes is remarkable.

And clearly, flowing power down to the people is going to be in the long term best interest of the country and the whole economy. (Remember FDR.)

The oligarchs are trying to obstruct it, and they're using lame arguments like yours to hide the fact that Chavez is doing what America did from 1945 to 1970.

[sandnsea]

62. That is Bush logic

We had a perfectly good economy in 2000, he implements his tax cuts, and it goes into a tailspin. 9/11 plays a part and when it has a natural recovery from that, he takes the credit. Jobs are coming back, unemployment is down; never mind the fact that it still isn't as good as it was in 2000.

That's what you're doing.

And the comparison to FDR is hysterical. Although he did appoint those extra SC judges, and probably shouldn't have. But he didn't appoint his own commission to rewrite the constitution, dispense with the Senate, and take full legislative authority for a year.

The how of change matters too, not just that change happens.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

63. Pardon the intrusion.

Are you related to Windansea by any chance?

[AP]

64. And Bush tried to take VZ economy down too. But then Chavez kicked out

all the fascists from PDVSA from mgt, and then they decided to strike, but it didn't work. So, when Bush finally jacked up oil prices to make his American friends rich (which is the whole point of his administration), his buddies weren't running things in VZ. Bush definitely tried to help them, and he's probably pissed that the citizens of VZ are reaping a financial windfall which was really meant for the oligarchs. But his time was running out and he couldn't wait any longer (the recall thing didn't go Bush's way).

Tell me, do you hate democracy in VZ because you simply don't understand the facts, or do you hate democracy in VZ because you actually like the idea that oligarchs should run government for their own benefit.

Or do you just like Kerry a whole bunch and you're not comfortable criticizing him?

[sandnsea]

69. Or do you hate democracy?

Because all I've ever suggested in these Venezuela threads is that Chavez do what he said and hold the election fairly. And listen to the opposition because everybody in a democracy ought to have a voice. But for some bizarre reason, when you're implementing a socialist government, normal democratic processes can be thrown out the window.

[AP]

73. Read post 50. And if that's all you want, then I don't understand why you

post so much and understand so little about (or misrepresent) what is going on there.

[sandnsea]

74. Objectivity

There's far too little of it around here, particularly from the socialists. I became horrified when people were posting on Monday that throwing out all democratic principles and implementing socialist policies by force was acceptable because it was for the good of the people. I even PM'd you and told you that. But as long as people are going to blindly post pro-Chavez stuff, without even considering the opposition, I'll take the part of the opposition. Because that is what democracy is about. And nobody knows what is going on in Venezuela. Even a Venezuelan could show up here and post, and unless they were objective, we still wouldn't know. Political agendas. Even from poor, socialist Venezuelans.

[AP]

75. You're distancing yourself from your motivations? Now you're only

making the arguments for the fascists because nobody else will?

Have the courage to stand up for your principles. Nobody's forcing you to spend hours a day defending fascists.

By the way, people do know what's going on in VZ. You don't know. But other people do.

It might be time for you to shut up and do some research.

And if nobody could really know, why do you throw that word "socialist" around like you know what it means and you know that it's happening. Why do you argue so enthusiastically that the problem is the fascists aren't getting their voice heard, if you really don't know what's going on?

[sandnsea]

81. I'm arguing against specific comments

That were made. People who said Chavez was right to force his changes through, even if he had to use force and circumvent democratic processes to do that. That is what people on this forum said. I don't need to go to Venezuela or read anything else to know what they said. They said it to me.

Arguing that people should attempt to be objective about what is happening in Venezuela is a whole different thing. I figured you could hold more than two thoughts in your head at the same time.

Are you denying that Chavez is pushing through a socialist government? It doesn't matter to me if he is, as long as he does it in a manner that respects the legislative process that exists in Venezuela and he isn't doing that. Maybe you're the one who doesn't know what's going on.

[Vladimir]

84. He is quite right you know

I did indeed say that Chavez was right to use force and circumvent democracy (if that is what he is in fact doing, which I do not see as proven), since his opposition is doing exactly the same thing. Or do you admire Gore for giving in and landing us with 4 years of this shit?

[sandnsea]

91. Gore was right

When the Supreme Court finally ruled, Gore was right. It was the time to concede. It's too bad they didn't take a different legal course from the beginning, but what's done is done. That's the way it has to be unless you want to live in a state of perpetual upheaval. It may sound exciting and revolutionary to you, but it sounds like hell to me. A worse hell than George Bush even. But then, I don't think Nader voters are worried about that anyway.

[Vladimir]

92. Nader voter? Hahahahahaha

man you don't know your left from your far-left.

[sandnsea]

93. Doesn't matter

Vote for someone to the left of Nader, the results the same. Don't go pissing about Al Gore and how bad things are because he didn't fight Bush, when you never did a thing to help him get into office in the first place.

[Vladimir]

94. Where do I start

a) I can't vote anyway, not being American

b) If I was, I would vote Democratic no matter who the candidate was (short of some government of unity Kerry-McCain ticket). Its the only disciplined position.

c) Gore didn't have the stomach for a fight. Chavez does, and thank fuck for that.

d) Just because I have said from day 1 that people should vote ABB doesn't mean I'm gonna pretend that Kerry's shit don't stink.

[sandnsea]

95. I didn't think you could

But some people actually change their "circumstances" depending on the day of the week and topic of hte post. Anyway, we were disucssing circumventing democracy. Bush is doing it and he's wrong. If Al Gore had done it against the Supreme Court he would have been wrong. And Chavez doing it is wrong. If we don't respect our laws, there's nothing left. I don't adhere to the 2nd Amendment being the most important in the U.S., it's the courts that are most important and if we don't respect them and protect them, we've got nothing at all.

[Vladimir]

96. I think 30,000 dead Iraqis would beg to differ

but anyway, where have I changed my circumstances? I have, from day 1 on this board, been ABB. I have also never pretended to be anything other than a Socialist. I have also never pretended to like Kerry. :shrug: You think voting Democrat involves liking the candidate? Gimme a break...

[sandnsea]

98. You haven't

Some do, that's all I meant. And perhaps you're a bit more rational than some on the left or the far-far left as to voting. And maybe 30,000 dead Iraqi's would beg to differ, but it's just as likely 300,000 dead Americans wouldn't have. Because you never know what can happen when you start abusing the courts and the law, especially the Supreme Court and a Presidential election.

[sandnsea]

99. Just for kicks

Do you like me, objectively, at all?

[Vladimir]

102. I have little time for your politics

and no opinion on you as a person. Et toi?

[sandnsea]

105. Vice-versa

All the time for your politics, although I disagree; but think you as a person are polite, respectful, and thoughtful. Well, except that one time you wanted to punch racists in the face.

[Vladimir]

107. Still do. Racists tickle my violent bone... n/t

[camero]

137. and I want fascists in jail

That makes me a bad guy? Those doing the "repaired" sigs have alot of explaining to do.

[AP]

142. You're just hostile to any change that upsets the status quo that ...

...protected the hegemony.

It's VERY transparent.

If it were the other way around and the rich were getting more power, the change probably couldn't be too fast or too forced for you, right?

[Imperialism Inc.]

129. Excuse me but what exactly is socialist about the same

basic ideas that John F Kennedy proposed over 40 years ago?

Kennedy too wanted unused lands to be given over to landless peasants. That's right the great JFK. It is not so radical an idea. In fact it used to be considered common sense. Why do people need to hold land that they don't even have the money to work for themselves. Either 1) you don't know what the land reforms are or 2) you consider JFK a socialist , which of course is absurd.

As far as objectivity you lose big time on that account. Kerry's speech was 95% against Chavez with one sentence thrown in about the coup. And yet you had no problem with that at all.

That is all I have to say on the matter. I know you'll have to have the last word so go for it.

[camero]

79. You mean like Sweden?

Spain? France? Looks like democracy works pretty well there.

[sandnsea]

83. Because democracy is working

They listen to all sides in the legislative process, they don't take power and change the entire government simply because they have a majority, and they don't say they're going to hold elections and then play multiple games to keep the elections from happening. I'm not arguing against socialism as a form of government, I'm arguing against the way Chavez is implementing it and the fact that if he keeps going, he could easily become another dictator and Venezuela could be another Cuba. And while that isn't the worst thing in the world, it isn't the best either. And it sure as hell isn't democracy.

[camero]

85. You have to kick the fascists out first

It's worked the same everywhere. No country can keep democracy for long without booting the people who feel the need to control others.
It took Europe four revolutions to realize this and they are still fighting it.

When the US decides to get their hands out of VZ then we will know. The recall process has been a fraud from the beginning.

[sandnsea]

89. Kill 'em all

Gotta' kick the terrorists out first, it's worked the same anywhere. No country can keep democracy for long without booting the terrorists who feel the need to control others.

Do you not understand that your arguments are the exact same ones George Bush is making? That's my whole damned point.

[camero]

97. The US loves fascists

http://www.guerrillanews.com/human_rights/doc4550.html

The United States is using a quasi-governmental organization created during the Reagan years and funded largely by Congress to pump about a million dollars a year into groups opposed to Venezuela President Hugo Chávez, according to officials in Venezuela and a Venezuelan-American attorney.

Some 2,000 pages of newly disclosed documents show that the little-known National Endowment for Democracy is financing a vast array of groups: campesinos, businessmen, former military officials, unions, lawyers, educators, even an organization leading a recall drive against Chávez. Some compare the agency, in certain of its activities, to the CIA of previous decades when the agency was regularly used to interfere in the affairs of Latin American countries.

“It certainly shows an incredible pattern of financing basically every single sector in Venezuelan society,” said Eva Golinger, the Brooklyn, NY-based attorney who helped obtain the documents through Freedom of Information Act requests. “That’s the most amazing part about it.”

One organization, Sumate, which received a $53,400 grant in September, is organizing the recall referendum against Chávez, Golinger said. The head of another group, Leonardo Carvajal of the Asociación Civil Asamblea de Educación, was named education minister by “dictator for a day” Pedro Carmona, a leading businessman who briefly took over Venezuela during an April 2002 coup against Chávez, she said. A leader of a third group assisted by the National Endowment for Democracy and its subsidiary organizations, Leopoldo Martínez of the right-wing Primero Justicia party, was named finance minister by Carmona, she said.


You jail criminals to keep them from hurting others. Which is what the oligarchy is doing in VZ. Or haven't you noticed that?

[sandnsea]

103. National Endowment for Democracy

Yeah, what a bunch of evildoers.

http://www.ned.org/

[Vladimir]

106. Well its an arguable point

at the time when it was formed, the US was supporting, amongst others, Pol Pot - through organizations which would later be abolished in favour of the NED.

[sandnsea]

110. It's an arguable point

But not evidence that because certain individuals receive money from the U.S., it necessarily puts them on the wrong side in their country or even that they're using it for electoral purposes.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

113. So, it would be OK for China and Saudi Arabia to pump money

into our electoral system and shape it accordingly?

[sandnsea]

116. hehe, well they do

But, for example, just because Saudi Arabia supported a Muslim group in the U.S. and one of those people happened to be politically active, it doesn't necessarily equate to the Saudi's intentionally meddling in elections.

[Vladimir]

118. What if that person

owned 75% of the TV stations and newspapers in the US?

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

119. That's not what I asked.

Is it OK? Should the people put up with it? That's what our tax payer money does. The US should stay the ____ away from other people's elections, period.

[sandnsea]

121. Leaping logic

Get me a list of all the boards that Ted Turner sat on while he ran CNN and get me a list of all the money from all over the world that went into those foundations, then tell me that some foreign country was influencing elections through Ted Turner. That's the logic you're trying to pass off here. The U.S. meddles in all sorts of ways, I'm aware. But it doesn't justify a dictatorship, IF that's what Chavez intends. Just like it doesn't matter what the Democratic Party has done since 2000, none of it justifies George Bush making his own choices and destroying this country. Maybe that's the disconnect, looking at underlying problems that always exist, instead of the man at the top.

[Vladimir]

122. It may well not justify a dictatorship

but the space between dictatorship and liberal democracy is not devioid of shades of gray you know...

[sandnsea]

125. You sound like John Kerry

That's all he's saying. No coups. Count the votes, keep that democracy somewhere in that shade of gray.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

128. WHAT VOTES? There are no votes. This is a signature based process.

Many have been proven to be fake or at least suspect enough for the verification process to be triggered. OK what else you got?

[sandnsea]

134. votes, signatures,

you're really nitpicking here.

[Vladimir]

130. Well I certainly hope there won't be another coup

although I never get tired of seeing fascists get their butts kicked by the people...

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

131. .

[sandnsea]

138. I hope for the best for Venezuela

Whether under Chavez or somebody else. Just the best for those people, they've been through enough hell.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

126. No, no no and no. Talk about leaping logic.

If there was a foreign group that directly put money into a candidates election and/or recall effort. Would you be cool with it. Simple question. You refuse to answer. It is illegal in this country for foreigners to contribute to candidates.

BTW what is this dictatorship you keep talking about?

Also it is not enough to be "aware". Do you support it or not?

[sandnsea]

135. You're making assumptions

This isn't conspiracy theory 101 where you can just say something and therfore it's true. Like Bush caused 9/11 or you KNEW there were no WMD. In matters of governance, you have to have proof. You have no proof any foreign group is putting money into Venezuelan elections, just conjecture. Just like I have no proof Chavez is going to become a dictator, it's conjecture. But if you're the President of the United States, you better listen to both sides. Otherwise you might take the word of someone like Chalabi and look where that might get you.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

139. I'm making assumptions? Pot meet the kettle.

Again with the conspiracy shit. Wow you got me there. I may not have proof that you like but that's what our government does. So cover your eyes nothing to see here.

If it's wrong for me to assume, then why do you do it?

"Just like I have no proof Chavez is going to become a dictator, it's conjecture." Then why are you even posting about this subject then? I deal with facts you deal with imaginary future scenarios. SEE YA!!

PS Don't bother reading anything from this link since I'm pulling it out of my ass. Also never do your own research you might discover some ugly truths.


http://www.mediatransparency.org/recipients/ned.htm

[sandnsea]

140. Logic illudes you

You don't know where the money from the NED is going any more than I know whether Chavez is going to become a dictator. You can't just take ONE point of view and repeat it as truth. Mine or yours. That's what I said, sorry you just don't understand. I notice you didn't respond to anything Chavez has done that might cause a little concern to some people. After demanding the facts be given to you. It's sad, but I'm not surprised.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

151. Are you shittin' me? There is no logic to argue against.

All we have so far are your imaginary scenarios of what he might do or IF he does that. NYT articles and Ron Paul's description of the NED. And you still sit there sayting we don't know? This isn't conspiracyplanet.com articles I've presented. But oh well.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

154. Chavez has done a lot to concern elitists who are scared he'll

keep them from getting any richer.

[Judi Lynn]

158. Great article, Smirky_W_Binladen. Tremendous.

I found the NY Times article mentioned, and found the final lines interesting:

But critics say recipients of endowment aid do not have the same accountability that government programs require, which opens the door for rogue activities and freelancing. The agency overreached, those critics say, in Chile in 1988 and in Nicaragua in 1989, when endowment funds were used to sway the outcomes of elections.

Barbara Conry, an analyst at the libertarian Cato Institute, said the organizing philosophy behind the endowment was flawed.

"You ended up with the worst of both worlds," she said. "Everybody knew it was directly funded by Washington. That didn't fool too many people. But it wasn't really accountable."
(snip/)

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0425-03.htm

Commondreams reprinted it.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

108. Indeed.

The misnamed National Endowment for Democracy (NED) is nothing more than a costly program that takes US taxpayer funds to promote favored politicians and political parties abroad. What the NED does in foreign countries, through its recipient organizations the National Democratic Institute (NDI) and the International Republican Institute (IRI), would be rightly illegal in the United States. The NED injects "soft money" into the domestic elections of foreign countries in favor of one party or the other. Imagine what a couple of hundred thousand dollars will do to assist a politician or political party in a relatively poor country abroad. It is particularly Orwellian to call US manipulation of foreign elections "promoting democracy." How would Americans feel if the Chinese arrived with millions of dollars to support certain candidates deemed friendly to China? Would this be viewed as a democratic development?

In an excellent study of the folly of the National Endowment for Democracy, Barbara Conry notes that:

"NED, which also has a history of corruption and financial mismanagement, is superfluous at best and often destructive. Through the endowment, the American taxpayer has paid for special-interest groups to harass the duly elected governments of friendly countries, interfere in foreign elections, and foster the corruption of democratic movements...



http://www.antiwar.com/paul/paul79.html

[sandnsea]

111. See 110

And of course, there are people in the world that could find conspiracy in any group. Stamp USA on it and the left is on the hunt, and that's a fact.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

115. Whaaaaa?

See post 112. OK you got me. Put the word conspiracy in and just like that you debunked everything. These are facts my dear. If you don't want to believe them at least try to counter them with other facts. Do you even know who Ron Paul is?

http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=National_Endowment_for_Democracy


http://members.aol.com/superogue/ned.htm

[sandnsea]

117. Yes I know Ron Paul

And it's late and I'm honestly not interested in another debate on this. I'm sorry, I know it's rude, but I'm not. Certainly I'm aware of how much the U.S. muddles in other countries, but that's no excuse for a dictator to be a dictator. IF that's what Chavez intends to become, which we shouldn't be so naive as to think couldn't happen.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

120. What are Chavez's so called crimes you keep referring to?

IF, being the key word here. How come the dictator has to put up with a media that calls him sexually fixated on Fidel Castro. Where are the coup plotters? If he were such a "dictator" they'd be rotting in jail or dead. What would happen to coup plotters (non-republican) if they tried that shit in the US?

It seems to me you're just throwing out accusations, hyperbole and assumptions.

BTW it's not rude. You gotta do what you gotta do.

[sandnsea]

124. How come he put himself in charge?

Wanted complete control for a year? We don't know whether Chavez will become a dictator or not, it remains to be seen. But some of what he is doing is disconcerting, he needs to quit playing games with the signature process and, as we say in America, count the votes. He said he would, he needs to do it.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

127. "How come he put himself in charge?" . ??????

What does this mean. He put himself in charge of what? The country? They elected him for Koresh's sake. He was overthrown and the people put him back in charge. Did you even hear his speech when he was returned to power? He is doing what any politician would do. Exhaust all legal means to keep his opponents at bay. So what? Gray Davis used all legal means at his disposal to stop the rethug financed recall. I guess he's a dictator too. Still haven't answered what crimes, what dictatorship?

[sandnsea]

133. Here

Why'd he even ask for this when he had control of the assembly anyway? Sorry, I don't trust the guy. His opposition may well be wrong, but that doesn't make him right.

2000

"Chávez won approval from the assembly to legislate by decree"

http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/world/A0861773.html

1999

"Venezuelas' constitutional assembly, which is controlled by supporters of the President, Hugo Chavez, has voted to suspend Congress."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/430424.stm

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

136. "Chávez won approval from the assembly to legislate by decree"

So he won it. How has he used it in a dictatorial way?

"Venezuelas' constitutional assembly, which is controlled by supporters of the President, Hugo Chavez, has voted to suspend Congress."

Congress still operates and laws still have to go through the democratic process to be enacted.

Also the supreme court released some of the coup conspirators and he had to abide by it. Again where is the dictatorship?

[sandnsea]

141. Wow

Mind boggling. He suspended the Congress and you don't have a problem with that. He then got HIS Congress to allow him to rule by decree, and you don't have a problem with that. What if Bush did that? We're sitting here on this board with posts almost every day talking about Bush suspending elections and ruling by martial law, but when Chavez does it, it's a-ok. I just do not understand your thinking process.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

146. But you're making it seem like the opposition are a bunch of fair-minded

representatives of the people. Your argument is very one sided and too trusting of the oppositions motives and backing.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

152. And I'm telling you congress still operates just fine.

If you don't believe me look it up. John Kerry is going to inherit the same presidential powers as Bush. Shit he helped him get some of those himself. Are you telling me Ihould start trashing the guy because of what he MIGHT do with them?

[Judi Lynn]

159. Could you provide a link to an article describing how Chavez PERSONALLY

suspended the Congress?

That would be interesting.

It also is interesting that the U.S. supported coup President for a day Pedro Carmona suspended all legislators, the Supreme Court and the Constitution.

That seemed just hunky dorey with our Republicans. I assume you would want to denounce that action, by all means.

[Judi Lynn]

160. This looks like a good place to remind people of the President

Hugo Chavez attempted to unseat, Carlos Andres Perez. This is a timeline covering the time between his election to the Presidency and his impeachment:

1988 Dec 4, In Venezuela, former President Carlos Andres Perez was declared the winner of the country's presidential election.
(AP, 12/4/98)

1989 Carlos Andres Peres took office and instituted bold reform plans. Increases in fuel costs and government reforms in Venezuela sparked extensive rioting and looting with hundreds of people killed.
(WSJ, 4/15/96, p.A-1)(WSJ, 5/22/96, p.A-16)(WSJ, 4/27/98, p.A16)

1989 An IMF loan was made to Venezuela.
(WSJ, 6/7/96, p.A15)

1990 Dec 7, As President Bush arrived in Venezuela on the last stop of his South American tour, his chief spokesman, Marlin Fitzwater, warned Iraq that there was "no lessening in the threat of war," despite Iraq’s promise to release its hostages.
(AP, 12/7/00)

1991 US Customs intercepted a large cocaine shipment and began investigations. It was found to be part of a CIA operation out of Venezuela.
(WSJ, 11/22/96, p.A12)

1992 Feb 4, In Caracas, Venezuela, there was a coup attempt but Lt. Col. Chavez failed to capture the presidential Palace and was forced to surrender. He served 2 years in prison.
(WSJ, 6/12/03, p.A10)

1992 Nov 27, In Venezuela some 15,000 rebel forces under Lt. Col. Hugo Chavez tried but failed to overthrow President Carlos Andres Perez for the second time in 10 months. The coup left dozens dead and Chavez was jailed for 2 years and then pardoned by Pres. Rafael Caldera. Chavez was elected president Dec 6, 1998.
(AP, 11/27/97)(WSJ, 4/27/98, p.A16)(SFC, 12/7/98, p.A9)

1992 Irene Saez, the Miss Universe of 1981, was elected mayor of Chacao. By 1997 she was being considered for national leadership.
(SFC, 8/19/97, p.A8)

1993 Aug 31, Venezuela president Carlos Perez fled.
(MC, 8/31/01)

1993 Pres. Carlos Andres Perez was impeached. He was later charged with misusing $17 million security fund for election debts and a lavish inauguration.
(SFC, 5/31/96, A16)

1993 Rafael Caldera was elected president and promised not to increase fuel costs.
(WSJ, 4/15/96, p.A-14)

1994 Jan, Banco Latino failed and sparked a run on the currency that put the nation into its worst economic crises. Chairman Gomez Lopez left the country just before a warrant for his arrest on charges of fraud was issued. Ricardo Cisneros was on the board and fled after being charged with playing a role in the bank’s failure.
(WSJ, 7/31/96, p.A1)(WSJ, 9/18/96, p.A14)

1994 Pres. Caldera pardoned Hugo Chavez for the 1992 coup attempt, and asked him to leave the military.
(WSJ, 4/27/98, p.A16)

1994 Financial controls were imposed on the currency and the exchange rate was set to 170 to the US dollar. Almost the entire private banking system had to be nationalized at a cost of $8.5 billion, equivalent to three-quarters of the national budget. Responsible bankers took much of the money and fled abroad.
(WSJ, 12/12/95, p.A-15)(SFC, 12/8/99, p.A17)

1994 A riot and fire at the Sabaneta Prison in Maracaibo left 108 inmates dead.
(SFC, 10/24/96, p.C4)

1995 Venezuela devalued its Bolivar currency 41% to 290 from 170 to the US dollar.
(WSJ, 12/12/95, p.A-15)

1996 Jan, The government reopened the oil sector to private foreign investments.
(WSJ, 6/7/96, p.A15)

1996 Apr 15, Tens of thousands of striking Venezuelan teachers defied a government order to go back to their classrooms. The month-old stoppage has kept more than 6 million children out of school.
(SFC, 4/16/96, p.A-9)

1996 Apr 15, Pres. Rafael Caldera was expected to announce increases in fuel prices by as much as 850% from the 13-cent per gallon current cost.
(WSJ, 4/15/96, p.A-1,14)

1996 May 30, Former Pres. Carlos Andres Perez was convicted on corruption charges. He was sentenced to prison for 28-months and fined for misappropriation of $17 million from a secret security spending fund.
(SFC, 5/31/96, A16)(SFC, 5/28/97, p.A12)
(snip/...)

http://timelines.ws/countries/VENEZUELA.HTML

It's also worth mentioning that he and his mistress were discovered to have deposited MORE money in U.S. banks than he had legally earned. Interesting, for sure.

He is a friend of the elder Bush, has lived in Miami and New York since he screwed the people of Venezuela royally, and has been connected with the coup plotters.

[AP]

17. When the fascists in his own country took things to far, Chavez stepped up

First he tried a coup. That failed. So he started a political party. And that became incredibly successful.

Perhaps Kerry and Chavez have the same motivations -- to fight fascists.

[rastignac5]

18. DU is obviously populated by a bunch of middle class gringos

There's not a country in all of Latin America as infatuated with Chavez as you guys are. Reminds me of the gringo lovefest for El Salvador's FMLN back in the 1980s. It's easy to participate in naive utopia worship when you're thousands of miles from reality.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rastignac5]

28. You "know several native Venezuelans"?

Is that like some of your best friends being black?

[stickdog]

51. No. It's like saying I know several native Norwegians.

Therefore, I know a few knowledgeable folks to bounce my political theories about Norway off of.

[Imperialism Inc.]

25. Chavez actually has quite a few allies

for his stances against imperialism , his programs of trade between Latin American countries, and stance against 'Plan Columbia'. The Mexican President comes to mind for the latter case. Obviously right wing leaders would not be included in that group.

[rastignac5]

29. He does have a few allies and a few good ideas, too, but

but like I said, his approval rating in DU is about double that in Venezuela. Dont mind me- I'm just sneering at the ridiculousness of this poll.

[AP]

36. That's because we don't watch private VZ media, and we don't believe

the shit the NYT prints about VZ. (They had to fire their VZ stringer because he was in bed with the fascits, and they actually printed an editorial approving of the coup!).

[Vladimir]

65. Yeah, that's me, a middle class gringo

well, actually I am middle class, but I ain't never been cool enough to be called a gringo before. Cheers!

Tell me, those people that brought Chavez back to power after the coup in 2002 - they were middle class gringos, right?

[Padme Amidala]

21. A poll won't effect the Election.

We all know we need to get rid of Bush. There is no question. However, Kerry has taken the wrong side on this issue. Hugo is love by his leaders very much and has the right to stay in power.

I know Kerry isn't perfect. He probably will need us to pressure him to take the right stances once he takes office. However, we all know that anything is better than Bush. And a small poll on the Democratic Underground between the soon to be Democratic Nominee and A citizen of a country in a different hemisphere will not make a difference in the Nov. 2nd election.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

45. Is there some sort of homing device on the Venezuela threads?

:shrug:

[ShaneGR]

46. I raise my eyebrow every time....

I hear someone talk about elections being a bad thing. If he has 70% support, let the people vote!

Stinks of a dictatorship if you ask me.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

48. Ha! Thread killer! REALITY SUCKS!

Respond please Chavez fans! (if you dare)

[AP]

50. Chavez isn't trying to stop the elections. It's amazing that people feel

so comfortable expressing their firmly held opinions without caring for a second to look into the facts.

Do you know that the recal process is brand new, so both sides have to argue over rules never even contemplated before on how to conduct the recall.

When the gathered the signatures the first time, the rules were that people had to go to a signature collection place where there were witnesses and computer access to databases, and all sorts of nice protections like that.

Well, the opposition said, "what about sick people in hospitals?" So they argued, and they compromised: "ok, there will be walk around lists."

Well, guess what? When they sat down to count the signatures, the lists collected at the stations were fine. But the walk around lists were shockingly crappy. Pages on pages of names in the same handwriting was one of several problems. Missing ID numbers was another problem, IIRC.

So, they had to engage in another round of negotiating how to conduct a repair process, and again, they've never done this before so both sides have to argue their position.

Naturally, the government wanted to start from the position that the whole reason of having the rules in the first place was to identify fraud and not count fraudulent signatures, but they were willing to have a repair program. Naturally, the opposition wanted a repair process that was more lenient than the rule for the walk around lists (which were obviously inadequate). So they agreed to a repair process. One of the biggest problems agreeing to the rules didn't come from the gov't, it came from the opposition. The government said that if people can come in and repair their signatures, they also want people to be able to come in and take their names OFF the list (and I'm not sure if this was only for people whose names appeared on the walk around list or if it's for people who appeared on either list).

So, you see, a lot of fascists assholes go arround BS'ing that Chavez doesn't want a vote. However, the truth is a little more complicated. It's their consitution, and their recall process. They just want it to be fair. And they want to make sure the rules set a good precendent.

And, at least in the repair process, it was the oppostion who were most afraid of having the election go forward because the rules for it were so fair that they thought they weren't going to be able to repeat the fraud they perpetrated with the walk around lists the first time, and they were afraid that a lot of people were going to be able to undo fraud if their names were on the list and they shouldn't have been.

[AP]

52. By the way, NYfM, and sgr2, why don't you know this stuff? How do you feel

comfortable asking these (I presume rhetorical) quesitons and claiming reality sucks when you don't know the facts?

And sgr2, you're the one who really saddens me. I sent you Edwards bumper stickers. It wasn't easy to get those stickers. We ran out and I had to BEG an out of state volunteer to give me his. I really embarassed myself gettting those stickers for you.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

56. TKO!

[AP]

59. I'm going to start the count. If sgr2 or NYfM isn't off their knees and...

ready to fight in 10, it's a KO.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

143. Word on the street from actual (real live) Venezuelans

is that Chavez is bad news.

[Billy Burnett]

145. Another word on the street from actual Venezuelans ...

... is that Chavez is the best thing to ever happen there.

[Judi Lynn]

147. Hi, Billy Burnett! What you say sounds completely credible.

We really get a lot of disinformation, but a lot of us have learned to spot it.

It's great to see your name again! Yay. :hi: :hi:

[NewYorkerfromMass]

148. Obviously YMMV

just reporting anecdotal testimony.

[AP]

156. When you have millions of anedotes on the streets protesting a coup...

...those anecdotes add up to the truth.

Add this to your Netflix list: http://www.netflix.com/MovieDisplay?trkid=73&movieid=60032552

[NewYorkerfromMass]

165. Of course they protested the coup... duh!

that's another matter entirely. It doesn't equate then that Chavez is loved and adored.

[AP]

166. I don't understand what point you're trying to make. You want

to discount a single anecdote. You want to discount 10 million.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

168. Hey AP. Was there 100,000s some say 1,000,000 people

outside Miraflores Palace that day?

Hmmmm

What was the name being chanted?


Hmmmm I see OK later.

[AP]

169. Don't bother me with your anecdotes. If I don't hear it from CNN or NPR

I don't believe it.

Which reminds me, remember in the movie when they have the scene of the Chavez cabient back in power and they're watching CNN interview Carmona who's telling the reporter that he's in the palace and everything is cool and he's still in control?

Yes, if you hear it on CNN, it's true. I don't care if my own eyes can see the lie.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

170. Sorry, it won't happen again.

This whole thing is just getting so moronic. Isn't it?

[AP]

171. At least it's clear which side of the argument is the moronic side.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

172. Indeed it is.

[AP]

173. Psst. Yes, it's the side where the most common argument is, "I don't know

what's going on -- I'll wait for CNN to tell me the truth -- but I just think it's important to be skeptical, even if I don't know the facts are."

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

153. Another word on the street "Viva Chavez"

Couldn't resist.

[Vladimir]

150. Word in the morgues from real dead Venezuelans

snipers kill

[AP]

155. You're a fool if you believe that that's all you need to know

and if you believe this.

Psst. Check out who the people on the streets were supporting in April 2002 and how that ended the coup.

[stickdog]

53. Yes, let the people vote for Arnold! (nt)

[AP]

55. Don't miss my previous 2 posts in this thread.

[Vladimir]

57. He will, don't you worry

he has, after all, won popular support by both the ballot and the bullet. His opposition has lost both, repeatedly.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

61. Reminds me of a famous Malcolm X speech. n/t

[Alerter_]

66. Chavez 72%, Kerry 28% - that says it all about DU :)

We'll all vote for Kerry, don't worry :)

[AP]

67. Some people who don't like Kerry are probably confused and deciding it's

more important to discredit Kerry than to side with what they probably see as a socialist.

There's a very curious triangulation with this issue.

I'm sure a lot of Kerry fans feel they have to hate Chavez if Kerry says so.

I got a tip for them: the Democrats like voters who can think for themselves, and not voters who can be told what to think. Kerry is going to respect you more if you criticize him on this issue. And any thinking voter is still going to vote for Kerry.

[Alerter_]

71. it's not about discrediting Kerry, it's simple solidarity

Chavez is a working class hero, and plenty of liberals and progressives are starting to understand and practice solidarity with our fellow workers in Central and South America.

If Kerry was a good guy, he would stop trying to sway the 5% of upper middle class "swing voters" and he should let MoveOn and the unions go on a voter registration and get out the vote spree. Kerry would win in a massive, historic landslide.

But he isn't. Instead he's "triangulating" with the fascists and corporatists of our own hemisphere. Why? Maybe there really is little meaninful differences between Bush and Kerry. I'm waiting for Kerry to convince me. Well, I'll vote for him anyway, whatever. I'm in NY, we're going Dem no matter what. So my vote hardly matters :0

[AP]

72. What Kerry is doing is what Kennedy did, and it worked pretty well then.

[blm]

78. Horse**** You have no admiration

for the man who investigated and exposed more government corruption than any lawmaker in modern history?

You see not much difference between him and Bush?

Sorry, but that's sick, insane or incredibly ignorant of John Kerry's actual record.

[Alerter_]

86. no, my mind is still wide open about Kerry

All I know is what I read from one source or another. I've done my best to make sense of Kerry's investigation into Iran Contra and BCCI. I'm cynical and I don't expect much, but I can't think of any better investigation than Kerrry's.

Trust me, if Kerry deals with this Bush family parasite on America, and their corporate backers, he'll be FDR II, and our grandchildren will sing songs about him.

[TexasMexican]

70. What are you talking about Willis....

I'm voting for Chavez now. :P

[ContinentalOp]

77. I forget.

Which one's the pinko commie? I like that one.

[Imperialism Inc.]

132. Sorry but neither one.

As Greg palast put it in a radio interview. Chavez is no socialist. The people of Latin America generally see socialism as the side that lost the cold war. A loser ideology.

Not saying I agree or disagree just that is hte general attitude there.

The ideas of John F Kennedy were not socialist, however. It was common sense. What possible reason does a landowner need to hold land the he can't provide the capital to work for himself when there are thousands of landless peoples?

[JI7]

87. Chavez doesn't need Kerry to "defend"

him as long as kerry is just a presidential candidate. that guy in spain zapatero does not need kerry to publicly side with them. they all support kerry beating bush even if kerry is critical of them or doesn't side with them.

[Vladimir]

88. That's about the most perceptive thing

I have seen in any of these threads all night. I think a good rule of thumb is, at least in Britain, the more far-left the party, the more they are hoping that Kerry wins.

[Alerter_]

90. ha! good point

that's the truth!

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

101. Cool.

Lol.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

104. anti-other poll kick.

:kick:

[Forkboy]

109. lol

:)

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

112. Ah, what the hell...

:D

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

114. Whoops.

[Loonman]

144. Communism is not a solution to fascism

Communism is a dead end, and it won't be long before Venezuela reaps it's bitter fruits.

[Judi Lynn]

161. Could you provide links to articles on Hugo Chavez's communist

identity? I've never seen any reference to this anywhere.

[redqueen]

164. Addressing poverty = communist

Didn't you know that?

When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist. - Dom Helder Camara

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

149. I think the REAL question is the integrity of Chavez vs his Opposition

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1711025

/end shameless plug for my own thread