OK Dem bashers...the table is now turned

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

All I have heard about is how bad the Dems are. Nevermind that during Clinton we passed Family Leave Act, Americans with Disabilities act and had the largest economic expansion in US history.

Only Ralph Nader can save America...so it's your turn to pony up some results.

Name a single thing he has done for consumers, the poor, the environment or organized labor since the 80's.

[leftofthedial]

1. well, he helped get the bushgang selected and that, er . . .

never mind.

[redqueen]

7. Well, to be honest

Democrats are more united now, and people who were apathetic are now getting involved or at least donating money.

*ducking*

[mmonk]

2. I believe

ADA was first under bush I.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

4. It was a Dem program nevertheless

but thanks for the correction if I got it wrong

[FlashHarry]

38. Written by Tom Harkin, I believe.

A Democrat.

[KamaAina]

60. True, but Bush (the elected one) was set to veto ADA

'cause it heaped too much of a burden on those poor widdle businesses, until Bob Dole, if you will pardon the expression, twisted his arm. (grooooaaaannnn!)

Dole is the very model of a conservative: one who cares passionately about a cause that directly affects him (in his case, disability rights), while telling everyone else to go to hell.

[JayS]

3. He did some awesome experiments with...

...psychedelic drugs. Wait, that might have been Timothy Leary...

[rucky]

5. Why "since the 80's"? Afraid to talk about how Nader saved the world

from certain destruction?


from the Corvair?

[FleshCartoon]

6. I have never been able to get...

Nader lovers or Kerry haters to offer up a solution to the one he offers. That's why it's pointless to argue about it, imo.

[sangh0]

9. ?????

I have never been able to get Nader lovers or Kerry haters to offer up a solution to the one he offers

That makes no sense. You want someone to offer a solution to the solution that Nader offers?

[FleshCartoon]

15. I've never had anyone who supports Nader...

...explain exactly what the solution he offers is.

Mostly, they just give defensive and insulting non-specific accusatory remarks to the questions I ask.


:thumbsdown: :shrug:

[sangh0]

16. Thank you

and as you can see, none of them are posting in this thread.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

8. Wow..I love it..a Nader thread that will sink like a stone because his

apostles can't rise to the challenge

[sangh0]

10. And we know they're here

because they're posting as we speak

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

12. They're probably still googling and keep getting stuck in the 70's

[sangh0]

13. C'mon, get real!!

Google is just a capitalist tool. Naderites avoid it on principle

[Dookus]

11. of course they can't

because it's not about his accomplishments. It's simply the fact that he trashes Dems AND Repubs. He doesn't have to worry about realities, political or otherwise, in doing so. He can spout off whatever he wants and pretend to be superior to everybody else, without ever having had the balls to actually run for an office he could win and make a difference.

Screaming and yelling from the outside is satisfying to a lot of people, although I'll never understand why.

[Solidarity]

118. Screaming And Yelling "Inside" Doesn't Seem To Be Working

Dennis Kucinich has been screaming and yelling on the inside. He seems unable to budge ever so slightly the Democratic Party and Kerry to the left.

So who has more power in the Democratic Party, Kucinich or Joseph Biden and the DLC?

It seems to me that the DLC has pretty much marginalized Kucinich and other progressives in the Democratic Party. Any evidence to the contrary?

[sangh0]

131. Lower poverty rates, lower unemployment

lower teenage pregnancy rates, lowered substance abuse rates, lower AIDS transmission rates, and many others were all accomplished by Dems *WORKING* inside the party.

ANd the loony left says "It's not working". Just shows how much they care about the poor, the unemployed, the young, and the drug addicted.

[Terry_M]

18. Oh please

If this was an honest attempt at debate, maybe some would join.

[sangh0]

19. Now there's an original cop-out

Why don't you try to call our bluff?

[Terry_M]

27. Nader supporters have already been insulted

by the thread starter, before any showed up.

[sangh0]

37. Poor thing

And do you think that I, a Democrat, am disappointed at how easy it is to prevent you from defending Nadir. All I have to do is insult you, and you'll run with your tail between your legs.

Why would anyone support Nadir when his own supporters run away? If they won't fight for Nadir, why should I think that they'd fight for me?

[Terry_M]

53. I don't feel like participating in a flame war at the moment.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

59. If you don't want to flame, try adding some substance.

If you can think of any. As in, you could actually speak to the topic of the thread.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

41. Where? By asking for an actual result?

Cry me a fucking river!:cry:

[sangh0]

45. Questioning St Ralph

is insulting. How dare you!!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

20. What is so dishonest about asking for a single result?

I am all ears..or eyes as the case may be...all I want is evidence that Nader has helped a single cause he claims to support in recent history.

[sangh0]

22. That question answers itself

Since St Ralph is perfect, it must be dishonest to ask for even ONE result. And even though the Nadirites repeatedly argue that Jerry supporters should reach out to the Nadirites, it seems they won't take their own advice, even when Kerry supporters are INVITING them to reach out.

[Solidarity]

32. That's Right

You've got that right!

We could turn the tables and point out that if Nader were a member of Congress he would have done what Kerry failed to do.

Nader would have worked with Bernie Sanders, Dennis Kucinich and other progressives to oppose the Patriot Act, the union-free Homeland Security Act, NAFTA, the Iraq invasion resolution, funding for the occupation of Iraq, etc.,

Now they can blame Kerry's votes on Nader and/or the Green Party!

[sangh0]

33. Still can't answer the question?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1707750

Funny how you want to turn the tables (and btw, bring it on!) but never identify anything good Nader has done

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

36. And he would have been defeated as they were..BTW..Dems DID put up

a fight on union HSA....and we have NO idea what Nader would have done a couple weeks after 9/11... Do you have an interview with hem between 9/11 and the date it passed demonstrating such?
Any proof of that claim?

[hippiegranny]

43. woulda shoulda coulda

witness is speculating, your honor, move to strike.

[VolcanoJen]

14. Dem-Bashing Naderites are much like cicadas...

... and everyone knows VolcanoJen never passes up an opportunity to talk about cicadas. ;-)

As I was telling a Naderite friend of mine, the problem with Dem-Bashers like him is that they are here not to bring change, but to bring chaos. They burrow underground after presidential elections (the attention-grabbing ones), only to re-surface four years later. In between elections, they are nowhere to be found. For all the preaching about how bad the Democrats are, they rarely work for their "cause" in off-election years.

I respect Republicans more... honestly. Because Republicans never go away, and they fight real, real hard.

[Solidarity]

67. Nonsense

That's nonsense. Virtually all Green Party members and Nader activists have been active leaders and builders of the anti-war movement and many other causes. You will find that some allegedly "liberal" Democratic politicians are nearly invisible in those campaigns and sometimes outright hostile! That's called bi-partisan unity and many have supported Bushism while supposedly opposing Bush.

[VolcanoJen]

72. Nonsense, schmonsense. I'm one active Democrat...

... and never notice the far-left, until they make themselves known at our meetings, come presidential election-time.

I can only speak of my own personal experience, but I reiterate, Nader Supporters Are Much Like Cicadas.

On Edit:damn typos!

[Solidarity]

121. That Sounds Like Some Democratic Politicians I Have Known

That actually sounds an awful lot like some Democratic Party politicians I have known. Just before an election they discover the working class and labor unions with their campaign donor hat in hand. They visit union halls, work sites and working class neighborhoods all the time appealing for money and support.

And the day after the election they pull a disappearing act! Don't worry. In 2, 4 or 6 years we'll see them again with hat in hand begging for money.

[sangh0]

132. Family Medical Leave Act, minimum wage,

opposition to Bush*'s overtime proposals, NLRB, and numerous other accomplishments are the result of Democrats. The Greens call that "a disappearing act". Just shows how much they care about workers. That's why they ran that union-buster, Ralph Nadir

[Old and In the Way]

69. Yes, I notice that, too.

But I suspect that many of the Nader supporters are "on loan" from their normal political affiliations.

[Solidarity]

122. Nice Shot!

Nice shot. You should go to work for the DLC .... or are you already on their payroll?

[sangh0]

134. Nice shot

Did you think that one up yourself? I never heard THAT one before.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

17. The silence speaks for itself..doesn't it?

[KG]

21. snorf!

so, dem. bashers (whaa!) are naderites by default? what an amusing notion. :D

[sangh0]

23. So no Nadir accomplishments?

.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

25. You read this board as much as I do

and yes quite a few are...all I ask is for some evidence that he would be effective in his own causes given the dearth of results in recent history.

I have no issues with you questioning but *best Regis voice* is that your final answer?

[KG]

50. heck i don't know what his recent great accomplishments are.

any 'dem bashing' (whaa!) i do has nothing to do with nadar.

the lameness of the dem party pretty much speaks for its ownself.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

24. Disregarding Nader...answer me this:

Whose agenda is further to the left?

a. The current Democrats.
b. The Nixon administration.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

28. The current Democrats...don't EVEN try to bring up environment

Most of Nixon's environmental accomplishments were forced upon him by the Dems

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

66. Anything besides the environment?

[sangh0]

40. The 2nd Nadirite who suggests "disregarding" Nader

Funny how, all of a sudden, the Naderites DON'T want to talk about Nadir

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

57. What makes you think I'm a Naderite?

Because I'm to the left of your Republican appeasing positions?

Funny how, all of a sudden, you jump in to label things you know nothing about.

[sangh0]

108. No, because you're posting in a Nadir thread

.

[buddhamama]

26. educate and advocate

not sure if i fit your profile NSMA,
since i neither DEM bash (except for the occasional Zell thread)
or praise Nader as the second coming.

But i do know that, he has been on the frontlines.
He was in Seattle when Fair Trade hit the mainstream,
much to his credit. I think that counts toward two of your
quotas Labor Unions and the poor, not too mention Human Rights
and the Environment.

Hardly, if ever, is the forward progression in our great Nation
done without a push from the outside.

[sangh0]

29. "Being is Seatlle" is not much of an accomplishment

Anyone who can afford the plane ticket could do the same thing. In fact, thousands did.

[buddhamama]

34. come on,

even you can do better than that, sanghO
(actually, no, i've seen you posts, you can't)

[sangh0]

35. What is so great about being in Seattle?

And no, I won't comment on your abilities. The posts speak for themselves.

[buddhamama]

42. He's been with the movement from the beginning

not just Seattle, before Seattle and beyond.

Have a nice day :-)

[sangh0]

46. So was I

but I don't think it entitles me to the Presidency

[buddhamama]

56. if you want it go for it

but you're not entilted to anything and neither is Nader. The presidency is earned.

one of the beautiful things about this country we live in,
most of us believe in the ideal that everyone is created equal and democracy is for ALL not just some. Since we all unique individuals with strengths and weaknesses we find different ways of participating.

[sangh0]

109. And what has Nadir done to EARN the Presidency?

It shouldn't be so hard for a Nadir supporter to answer this simple question

[buddhamama]

112. then ask one

why they support him and you'll have an answer.

[sangh0]

114. We have asked

and I have an idea why you want to change the question from "What has Nadir accomplished?" to "Why do you support Nadir?"

The 2nd question doesn't require any mention to any accomplishment

[buddhamama]

116. you don't have an idea about much of anything

least of all me, so don't go pretending otherwise.

edited to add content

[sangh0]

119. And you still can't cite any accomplishments by Nadir

Not surprised

[buddhamama]

120. i did last night

it may not meaure up to your standards- for that i am grateful.

bye-bye

[sangh0]

127. Oh, right! "Nader went to Seattle"

an accomplishment my 7 year old niece has managed to pull off. I forgot about that momentous accomplishment

[buddhamama]

128. i have doubts

about your Free Trade involvement
if you don't know how Ralph is involved and his contribution to the movement.

wouldn't expect you to admit it though,
i don't expect anything from you actually
nothing more than what you have already shown yourself to be anyway.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

135. So your 'argument' consists of nothing but a personal attack

on the other poster? Do you have anything more substantive to add?

[buddhamama]

139. try three yrs worth

as if this wasn't the first discussion of its kind here.
some were productive and meaningful and others,well,
i got better things to do then piss into the wind.

[sangh0]

141. Nadir spent three years in Seattle?

I'm still waiting for some details on this great accomplishment of Nadirs.

[buddhamama]

144. no. three yrs on this board

duh!

[sangh0]

151. Nadir is a DUer

for three years?

[IrateCitizen]

142. Look up Public Citizen's Global Trade Watch

They've been instrumental in the work to counter the corporatist juggernaught behind so-called "free trade".

And even if GTW is headed by Lori Wallach, Public Citizen is still an organization created and directed by Ralph Nader.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

145. Your attempt to give Nader credit for the accomplishments of others

only highlights his own shortcomings.

[IrateCitizen]

147. Look, somebody had to lay the groundwork...

... and if you think that considering Ralph's autocratic nature he DOESN'T have some kind of involvement in trade issues, you're deluding yourself. I'm not attempting to give Nader credit for anything he doesn't deserve. That's your game to do the opposite, it appears.

You asked for an example, and I gave it to you. Don't change the rules in the middle of the game.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

149. In other words, you can't cite one accomplishment.

First of all, you haven't denied that you are attempting to give Nader credit for someone else's work.

Second, you haven't actually listed any accomplishments that you want to credit to him, even if he really did deserve the credit.


Did Nader actually accomplish anything? What?

[IrateCitizen]

150. Perhaps you could look at GTW's web site...

... and draw your own conclusions.

Personally, I'm done with this conversation. You can claim you "bested" me if it makes you feel better. I prefer to maintain discussions only if there is something beneficial coming out of them, and it is clear that your only goal is an "I'm right, you're wrong."

Have fun! :bounce:

[Feanorcurufinwe]

152. You mean, I might be able to find what you can't?

I am asking you for a substantive response. If you feel you are unable to make one, fine.


Can you name a specific accomplishment by Ralph Nader? What is it?

[IrateCitizen]

153. Buh-bye!

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. :boring:

[Feanorcurufinwe]

154. Can you cite one thing Nader has accomplished?

This is your chance to tell us what Nader has accomplished. What?

[IrateCitizen]

156. Ooohhh! This is my chance! Heavens to Mergatroid!

I'd better not miss my chance!

Whatever. :eyes:

[Feanorcurufinwe]

161. If you don't want to make a substantive response, fine.

If you don't have anything intelligent to say, by all means, make a joke.


Or, alternatively, you could actually advocate for your position. Who knows, maybe if you try, you will have something to add to the discussion.


Please try. The world, and DU, would be a better place with your input than without.

[sangh0]

158. Here's the accomplishment

In IC's own words:

They've been instrumental in the work to counter the corporatist juggernaught behind so-called "free trade".

And even if GTW is headed by Lori Wallach, Public Citizen is still an organization created and directed by Ralph Nader.

We have

1) "instrumental in...counter(ing)...free trade"

IMO, if he is responsible for fighting against free trade, I'll tip my hat to his intentions, but as an accomplishment, I have to say Ralph has failed on this one. I see absolutely no evidence that globalization and free trade has slowed.

2) Creating Public Citizen

A fine job, but without pointing out what PC has accomplished, then all you've done is shown that he started an org that has no accomplishments. Furthermore, that was a while ago, wasn't it?

[buddhamama]

157. not true, IC

all the great social movements that have occured in our Nation's history began quite by accident. Yep. A bunch of people found themselves lounging on the local green, noticed they were large in number and decided to do something together.

One thing our fickle 'friends' may not realize,
if the groudwork that Ralph laid doesn't count for anything
than neither does the history of the DEMs or Clinton etc,
with regards to the party now,
cause those are the accomplishments of someone else.

[sangh0]

136. Why don't you tell us?

With all those many accomplishments of his, it shouldn't be too hard to describe just one of them. I'm surprised you're so reluctant to take this opportunity to show us Kerry supporters the error of our ways.

[buddhamama]

143. this will be my last reply to

I am not supporting Nader for President
I too, plan on voting for Kerry come Nov

where you and i differ sangh0
is, i can look objectively at Nader. I see his good and bad.
i will not vilify his running for President or belittle the man's
contributions to fulfill some need--to feed my own ego and low self-esteem.

you're not fooling me

you'll settle for nothing less than sycophants
who'll nod their head and pat you on the back.
no thanks.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

146. I always think it's funny when someone is bested in an argument

and they petulantly announce "I'm not talking to you anymore!"

LOL

[buddhamama]

148. yeah, he bested me

LOL indeed.

[sangh0]

160. Not a question of "bested"

For me, the question is why you dont want to promote Nadir by explaining his accomplishments.

I'll promote my candidate, Kerry, and I don't even need a reason to do so. Kerry has Iran/Contra and S&L investigations under his belt, along with a lifetime of public service in the military, the DA's office, and Congress where he has supported liberal causes for decades.

[sangh0]

159. "I see his good and bad. "

I haven't noticed where you detailed Nadir's bad side. I guess we differ on "fair and balanced"

[Solidarity]

123. What About Kerry?

Was John Kerry in Seattle?

[sangh0]

125. What has Nadir accomplished?

Why won't you answer that simple question?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

30. I'll give you that

now has the issue gone forward or backward in recent history...did he really help it?

(and I am not being smarmy..I just feel those that accuse one side of having no real results in recent history should at least have some record to set forth themselves that is recent)

[buddhamama]

39. google it

Free Trade- and tell me if He helped it.

Of course it has moved forward,
people are talking about it.

It is an issue in this election. The unemployment numbers and outsourcing, Kerry himself has a plan to deal with it.

[sangh0]

44. YOu avoided the point

You were asked if NADIR moved the issue forward, and instead of answering that, you said "Of course it has moved forward, people are talking about it", while saying nothing about whether that was because "Nadir was in Seattle"

It seems more likely that the issue moved forward because of the factors you mentions - unemployment and outsourcing.

[buddhamama]

NO, i didn't

i gave my answer.-Google it.
Unemployment and outsourcing alone doesn't cover
HUMAN RIGHTS the Enviroment etc etc.

[sangh0]

51. "Google it" is not an answer

at least, not a responsive answer

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

47. Is that Nader's result or Bush's, due to so many being laid off?

Heck Pat Buchanan and Lou Dobbs bring it up regularly.

That is where that one gets murky. I am not saying Nader isn't an academic nor that he has no issues nor legitimacy with the issues he raises. I am asking if he has actually HELPED any of those causes.

[buddhamama]

52. Teena,

You know as well as I,
that without education and persons willing to bring the issues to light nothing changes. Did Nader do it alone? Hell No. But he has helped.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

58. Fair enough

and I didn't sick any other posters on you :loveya:

[buddhamama]

63. *snort*

:loveya: too

[ulysses]

49. well,

I just feel those that accuse one side of having no real results in recent history should at least have some record to set forth themselves that is recent

One could be tempted to turn the tables back and point out that one of these sides you mention hasn't exactly had its hands on the levers of power recently - or ever - in order to compile said record.

I agree with 'mama pretty much entirely, Teena. Simply showing up on issues, simply talking straightforwardly about things like "free" trade and corporatism, counts for a lot, especially when significant numbers within one's own party won't.

(my two bits while I'm taking a break from my homework tonight. Georgia's educational standards are various and wonderful to behold, indeed.)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

55. Hey you know I love a REASONABLE position and have nothing

but the highest respect for you and Bhuddamama...that said..NOT ALL Democrats have been sell outs and many DO stand up on issues..Kucinich is a Democrat...Harkin is a Democrat as was Wellstone and fuck if the Greens didn't go after him...right? (of course they back off in the final hours)

There WERE several anti-war votes...and DIOS MIO..NONE were Republican..

The levers of power are pretty much controlled by those that can afford them..but IN SPITE of NAFTA and trade agreements you and I BOTH know need correcting...I did a legnthy post a couple weeks back about the Clinton admin's actual results in protecting Anti-Trust laws and passing an international Anti_trust law (which DOES play into this issue)

I'll try to find it in a while.

[buddhamama]

61. i am a Kucinich supporter

went to my state convention as a delegate on his behalf.
and, you know what Teena, i was degraded here for doing so.

I appreciate and respect many in the DEM party,
and the platform i stand behind, it is the best we have.
But, i'm not going to demonize Nader or any one else who chooses to participate in our beloved democracy. That's the bottom line for me,
i support democracy and citizen participation.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

62. Well you weren't demonized by me for doing so and I view Kucinich's

actions as much more defensible since he is making a stab at effective action which unites the left with the machine they must confront rather than further marginalizes them by dividing the numbers and taking the gains into negative territory.

I don't demonize Nader for his POSITIONS on issues...I DO demonize him for a) his lies b.) his own hypocrisies where his business dealings (organized labor and living wages) were concerned c.) the fact that if he miscalculates..he either brings us total fascism, one party rule, or worse yet...violent revolution.

[buddhamama]

64. i agree

like i said in my first post on this thread, i don't think Nader's the second coming or above criticism.

i have my problems with the Man
you 1 and 2 for starters.

what gets me going is the constant hypocrisy;
Nader, DEMs and the public at large. There's no objectivity left in politics and subjective facts have been taken to whole new level.

I try hard to be objective.
People and their lives are complex,
and so are the issues in which Politicians (who are people too) are living and legislationing the shades of grey.

[ulysses]

80. certainly true enough.

NOT ALL Democrats have been sell outs and many DO stand up on issues..Kucinich is a Democrat...Harkin is a Democrat as was Wellstone and fuck if the Greens didn't go after him...right? (of course they back off in the final hours)

There WERE several anti-war votes...and DIOS MIO..NONE were Republican..

All true, of course. Damn but I miss Paul Wellstone.

The levers of power are pretty much controlled by those that can afford them..but IN SPITE of NAFTA and trade agreements you and I BOTH know need correcting...I did a legnthy post a couple weeks back about the Clinton admin's actual results in protecting Anti-Trust laws and passing an international Anti_trust law (which DOES play into this issue)

I'd like to see it. You'll have to pardon my skepticism, but (to steal a John Gardner analogy) an international anti-trust law in this day and economy seems very much like fiddling with the hairs on an elephant's trunk while the elephant is standing on a baby. Is it even enforceable?

[IrateCitizen]

137. Umm... slight correction, Teena...

There WERE several anti-war votes...and DIOS MIO..NONE were Republican..

That's not true. Both Ron Paul and Amo Houghton voted against the IWR, and they are Republicans.

A more accurate statement would be ALMOST NONE were Republican.

[treepig]

31. what has he done?

Copyright 2004 The Conde Nast Publications, Inc.

The New Yorker

March 8, 2004

SECTION: THE TALK OF THE TOWN; Comment; Pg. 25

LENGTH: 1078 words

HEADLINE: RECKLESS DRIVER

BYLINE: Hendrik Hertzberg


More than any other single person, Ralph Nader is responsible for the existence of automobiles that have seat belts, padded dashboards, air bags, non-impaling steering columns, and gas tanks that don't readily explode when the car gets rear-ended. He is therefore responsible for the existence of some millions of drivers and passengers who would otherwise be dead. Because of Nader, baby foods are no longer spiked with MSG, kids' pajamas no longer catch fire, tap water is safer to drink than it used to be, diseased meat can no longer be sold with impunity, and dental patients getting their teeth x-rayed wear lead aprons to protect their bodies from dangerous zaps. It is Nader's doing, more than anyone else's, that the federal bureaucracy includes an Environmental Protection Agency, an Occupational Safety and Health Administration, and a Consumer Product Safety Commission, all of which have done valuable work in the past and, with luck, may be allowed to do such work again someday. He is the man to thank for the fact that the Freedom of Information Act is a powerful instrument of democratic transparency and accountability. He is the founder of an amazing array of agile, sharp-elbowed research and lobbying organizations that have prodded governments at all levels toward constructive action in areas ranging from insurance rates to nuclear safety. He had help, of course, from his young "raiders," from congressional staffers and their bosses, from citizens, and even from the odd President. But he was the prime mover.

but you asked what he's done recently? why, by helping "elect" mr. bush, he's helped rid this country of all those onerous regulations . . .

For the past three years, everything Nader accomplished during his period of unparalleled creativity, which lasted from around 1963 to around 1976, has been systematically undermined by the Administration that he was instrumental in putting in power. Government efforts on behalf of clean air and water, fuel efficiency, workplace safety, consumer protection, and public health have been starved, stymied, or sabotaged in tandem with the shift of resources from public purposes to high-end private consumption, the increasing identity of government and corporate interests, and the growth of a cult of secrecy and arrogance that began well before September 11, 2001. Nader bears a very large share of responsibility for these spectacular traducements of his proclaimed values. So it is quite a tribute to the brilliance of his early achievements that an argument can still be made that the net effect of his career has been positive.

That argument will no longer be plausible if Nader succeeds in doing in 2004 what he did in 2000.

[sangh0]

48. The question specified "since 1980"

.

[treepig]

54. you didn't catch the second half of the post

describing how he's been able to negate all those bleeding heart liberal initiatives that make it oh-so-difficult for anyone left of zell miller to get elected to national office in this country?

that's what he's done since 1980. (since 2000 for that matter)

[sangh0]

110. Yes, I did It said nothing about any achievements in the last 20 years

It says that in the last three years, Nader's pre-1980 achievements have been largely undone

[Solidarity]

124. Accomplishments?

He's been fighting against the war in Iraq, the Patriot Act, so-called free trade deals, weakening of the FOIA, corporate control of the two major parties, etc., How about Kerry? What are his and the DLC accomplishments on those issues?

Oh .... they approved the attacks on our democratic rights, the invasion of Iraq, NAFTA, etc.,

Well, those are indeed magnificant accompishments I'm sure your proud of. Do you think Ralph Nader should get on board and also support those great victorys?

[sangh0]

126. And what has he accomplished?

"Fighting" (and losing) is not an accomplishment.

[RapidCreek]

83. Bullshit

For the past three years, everything Nader accomplished during his period of unparalleled creativity, which lasted from around 1963 to around 1976, has been systematically undermined by the Administration that he was instrumental in putting in power. Government efforts on behalf of clean air and water, fuel efficiency, workplace safety, consumer protection, and public health have been starved, stymied, or sabotaged in tandem with the shift of resources from public purposes to high-end private consumption, the increasing identity of government and corporate interests, and the growth of a cult of secrecy and arrogance that began well before September 11, 2001.

The above paragraph should begin...For the past Thirteen years and end with ...by the Republican Administration now in power and the Democratic Administration which preceded it.

The "(D)emocratic"LC Administration which preceded Bushco was just as guilty...if not MORE guilty of undermining that which Nader accomplished from 1963 to 76. Hence his frustration.

"Since 1980" the original poster said. Hmmmmm What happened in 1980? What happened to the Democratic Party after 1980? Think about it for a while. Think about parasites growing in the belly of their host.


RC

[Old and In the Way]

65. Well, he has elevated lecturing to an artform.

I wish Kerry would buy him off with a special honorarium, like "Lecturer-in-Chief" or "Lecturer-laureate of the US". Recognize him for what he's done best, marketing Ralph Nader.

[Old and In the Way]

68. Pretty funny thread, NSMA.

I've read all the responses....and, darn, but there isn't one significant accomplishment that any of his fans can enlighten us with.

And, very interesting tidbit I learned here from 5thGenDemocrat about Nader taking credit for the Corvair structural problems when it was a former GM exec....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=383525#384307

"Ralph Nader was paid UP FRONT to write "Unsafe at Any Speed"

Edited on Wed Feb-25-04 02:16 PM by 5thGenDemocrat
Saint Ralph was nothing more than a mercenary paid $2000 in advance by publisher Robert Grossman to hack out a hatchet job "exposing" the automakers' lack of concern for safety. The book wasn't even Nader's idea, originally.
Nader also wasn't responsible for the redesign of the Corvair's rear axle (a flaw which was real and did lead to people being killed and maimed). Chevrolet Division Manager Bunkie Knudsen was.
Knudsen's niece was maimed in a Corvair accident (Cadillac Division Manager Cal Werner's son was killed in one) and Knudsen threatened to resign from GM and take the matter public if the corrections weren't made (at a cost of $15 per unit, BTW).
These corrections HAD BEEN MADE before Unsafe even hit the bookstores. The Corvairs then on the lots were perfectly safe, reliable and economical. But GM couldn't sell them in the wake of Saint Ralph's screed and a lot of folks here in my hometown lost their jobs because of it.
John
Nader was little more than a hired gun. But nobody here would ever give the real hero of the story, Knudsen, credit for standing up to GM and saving lives because he's, you know, a corporatist."

The stuff you learn here on DU. :-)

[FlemingsGhost]

70. So let me get this straight:

Not only does criticizing Democrats (and/or John Kerry) constitute "Dem Bashing," it immediately makes one some kind of Nader supporter?

"Get off the table, Mabel. The dollar is for the beer..."

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

71. So let me get this straight:

You spend the last several days on Nader ass kissing threads and then this is what you have to offer?

Still no facts, eh? Just a "so let me get this straight" as though neurolinguistic programming is a viable substitute for actual results?
But now that I know you can see my posts...did you just miss this question or did you not have a viable actual result you could produce?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1707621#1707701

[FlemingsGhost]

73. Facts about what?

The thread you linked adresses how Democrats treat Green Party members and/or Democrats who are sympathetic to their platform. (The latter constitutes my political leanings, by the way.) This thread is a shining example of the sentiment put forth by the author. By the way, on that same thread, did you see that I am indeed voting for John Kerry?

But since I have the nerve to criticize him, and agree with the Green Party agenda, you point your finger and paint me as a "Naderite." Ralph Nader is not the Green Party. I have never and have no intent on voting for Ralph Nader. Why should I be obliged to defend him simply because you have a problem with dissent toward Democrats and/or John Kerry?

Not your best work, nsma.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

74. I asked a simple question...what has he done?

And no i didn't see it after not wishing to ferret through more Kerry bashing. I simply asked for ONE THING he has actually done since the 80's that forwards the agenda he CLAIMS to possess. That's all.

[FlemingsGhost]

75. You did far more than that...

What's the name of this thread?

How did "Dem bashers" become Nader supporters who needed to answer your "simple question?" See the leap you've made?

I read the underlying message as: "Don't bash Democrats (or Kerry) or you will be labelled as a 'Naderite.'" And we have all seen the pig-piles that occur when someone expresses their support for Ralph Nader. Hell, some freepers are treated more compassionately.

Your tactic is intellectually bankrupt and manipulative, to boot. It also proves the author (of the thread you linked) as being absoutely spot-on regarding the knee-jerk, emotionally childish way Democrats are addressing dissent within our ranks.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

76. Give me a fucking break! The only person making a leap is you

The tactic is typical bait and switch bullshit.

Look, this is an election year. I am well within my rights to take those to task who would fill this board with blatantly anti-Democratic party propaganda.

It's one thing to have honest criticism... it's quite another to spend one's time puffing up Nader (who you seem to be conceding is void of any actual results since you still haven't answered the question with anything but ad hominem attacks on me)while refusing to respond to the question "WHAT HAS HE DONE?" It's a valid question to people so demanding of results while all the while propping up a guy who has NONE in recent history.

Read my exchanges with Buddhamama and Ulysses. No pig pile there.

As far as intellectual bankruptcy is concerned ... i know of no tactic more intellectually bankrupt than to claim the high road on helping the downtrodden while all the while putting the nail in their coffin by dividing the left.

The next time you wish to attack someone..pic someone incapable of defending themselves.

[FlemingsGhost]

77. I'm doing just that, actually.

"The next time you wish to attack someone..pic someone incapable of
defending themselves."

It's not much fun, either.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

78. You should be on my end where all there is is ad hominem crap being

hurled with no actual response to the question. Nice intellectual exercise you have working there...lots of syllables void of an actual response to the thread.

Now...if you'll excuse me...I have to go floss my pet rock.

When you think of an actual thing Nader has done since the 70's that would make him results oriented enough to take the highest office in the land when his running against Democrats and attempting to divide the party has thrown his own agenda back into the dark ages...feel free to get back to me.
Until then, I will assume you can't or you would have by now.

[FlemingsGhost]

81. Nothing. Not a damned thing that I'm aware of...

In my opinion, Ralph Nader is not qualified to be President of the United States.That's exactly why I will not be voting for him, or the Green Party who will apparently endorse him.

Can we move on?

How in the world does that make this alleged "Dem basher" a "Naderite?"

[Old and In the Way]

87. For a poster with the name "DemsUnite", you have to admit it's rather

bizarre to be bashing John Kerry who will be the candidate.

[FlemingsGhost]

88. What's in a name?

Shall we examine the psychology behind "Old and In the Way"?

If fellow Democrats can't weather criticism from one of their own, then by golly Ralph was right, at least in this case: there is no difference between the two Parties.

Nice word you use: "bashing."

[Old and In the Way]

95. Sure, examine this-

Old and in the way


Old and in the way
That's what I heard him say
They used to heed the words he said
But that was yesterday
Coal will turn to gray
And youth will fade away
They'll never care about you
Cause you're old and in the way



As I hear tell he was happy
He had his share of friends and were kind
Now those freinds have all passed on
He don't have a place called home
Looking back to a better day
When you're old and in the way

* Refrain

When just a boy he left his home
Thought he'd have the world on a string
Now the years have come and gone
Through the streets he walks alone
LIke the old dog gone astray
He's just old and in the way

* Refrain

They'll never care about you
Cause you're old in the way


An old traditional tune sung, oddly enough, by the best damn Bluegrass band ever, Old and In the Way.

:-)

[sangh0]

111. You picked the name!! Why don't YOU tell us?

Why did you pick the name DemsUnite?

Camoflauge?

[Old and In the Way]

86. Can't you just answer NSMA's question?

It's rather simple and straightforward. How about not "reading between the lines" and assuming her motive and just give her a straight response. What has Nader done to deserve our vote for President?....other than he's not Kerry and not Bush.

[FlemingsGhost]

89. Post #81 answers the question

If you have an aversion to "reading between the lines," why question my motives regarding my moniker?

[Old and In the Way]

94. Because you are hellbent on dissing Kerry every chance you get.

The primaries are over. Kerry's it. Time to unite, DemsUnite.

[FlemingsGhost]

96. My promise to you, Old.

When John Kerry officially accepts the nomination, I'll cease criticizing him. Until then, I'll call 'em the way I see 'em ...

P.S. I have praised Kerry on numerous issues, including his environmental and energy policies, labor issues, reproductive rights for women, and education.

[Old and In the Way]

101. fair enough....

[sangh0]

113. NO, that's not fair

S/He offers no reason for waiting until the convention.

[ContinentalOp]

79. I'm no Dem basher

or Nader supporter. But in all fairness what did Clinton do before he was elected to a political office? I say this not in defense of Nader but simply to point out the irrelevance of the question. I mean isn't it kind of mundane to point out that a POTUS can accomplish more than another citizen?

[sangh0]

115. What Clinton did

He joined a party with a record of accomplishments, helped support other members of that party, and helped the party further it's policies such as protecting child welfare.

[RapidCreek]

82. Why since the 1980's?

What, you don't like what he did before 1980 or you just don't think it's important?

RC

[JI7]

84. Ralph Nader meeting with John Kerry

ralph nader getting his big meeting with a major party presidential candidate, john kerry and telling kerry he should pick gephardt or edwards for vp. both men who voted for iwr and the patriot act. and of course we know about gephardt's famous rose garden scene. he showed that people who voted for those bills did not support them as supporting what bush did. it showed that it's not a black/white for war/against war type bill.

i thought before nader recommended edwards and gep that they would both help kerry in winning the election also.

[JI7]

85. is nader "pro war" ?

since he likes those that voted for iwr ?

[struggle4progress]

90. I'm not supporting Nader but ...

I think it's a waste of time and energy to bash him. Many people have limited patience for politics: do you want them to hear "Bush sucks" or "Nader sucks"?

It's better to spend resources smushing the Bushistas: explain to their stinking policies to folks.

If people learn what's going on, I expect enough will vote for change.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

100. I'd rather read EITHER on this board

than to continue to read how Kerry sucks in the face of Bush who needs a whole new word since Kerry is not even on the SCALE of "suckiness comparatively.

And I've actually been here long enough (DU) to know that for some it is HIS RIGHT to run as the opposition and attack but if one responds in kind then golly..we're just being mean. Pfffft.

[struggle4progress]

102. I think voting for Kerry is the only thing to do.

The question is: How do we spend time, money, energy before the election. If the Bushistas win, it's likely to be through more nasty games like BBV-rigging, more purged voter rolls, or a (bogus) last minute surprise.

It's misleading to think that Uncle Ralph was the deciding factor in 2000: fraud in Florida was critical, and so was the SCOTUS interference. Whatever is spent p*ssing on Uncle Ralph for 2004 becomes unavailable for educating the public about the real issues: I think it's a waste, and it will make it harder to organize around the real issues if (heaven forbid) we lose.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

104. Fine but right now it is a contest and he is NOT the benign partner

he would have us all think but the opposition. It's misleading to "blame" it on him (2K that is) but it is equally misleading to pretend he is and was not a factor...that's all.

[struggle4progress]

105. You seem to feel strongly about this.

And I suppose I would too, if I really thought that Uncle Ralph was a major factor in 2000. (In fact, I was furious at Ralph in 2000.) But the more I've pondered the Bushistas, the more I've decided that THEY stole the election, and that Ralph is just a convenient object onto which the complicit media would divert our rage and attention.

I guess I'm naively convinced that Kerry will win if voters know enough. And I'm cynical enough to think the average citizen wants to digest only a minute or two of political discourse daily. So I myself won't be distracting folks from the Bush v. Kerry contest by foaming about Ralph.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

106. If either one of the two states in which he were a major factor tilted

the other way, America would be in very different shape today.

If swing states didn't have the impact they do, it wouldn't be an issue..but this election is coming down to undecideds. I firmly believe that by claiming to GIVE them a choice when he can't possibly win, he is nothing more than a ruse that actually removes choice, unless their choice would be Bush anyway.

So..yeah...I feel strongly.

[struggle4progress]

107. Well, is Uncle Ralph on the ballot anywhere?

If I remember correctly, the Reform Party has offered him ballot access, but has he accepted any such offer?

[quaker bill]

91. Ralph Nader cannot save America

He would have to win to even get started. As even he knows that he will never come close to that, he can say whatever he wants and never bear up to the responsibility of making any of it happen.

The politics of self marginalization are all about this. Regardless of who wins you can have 4 more years of complaining about how the public doesn't understand you and how much better things would be if they did.

I have preached to the choir long enough. All I want now is to hand shrub the defeat he so richly deserves.

[LoZoccolo]

92. And what would Nader do?

Let's see:

- a list of who he's going to appoint to his cabinet
- what he will do the first 100 days
- his 2006 budget

Etcetera. We want it on paper. He better get working on these kinds of details if he's going to be the president! What else would you ask him for?

[dsc]

93. The ADA was passed under GHWB not Clinton

Clinton has plenty of real accomplishments but that isn't one of them. It was passed in 1990 as stated in this brief.

http://www.usdoj.gov/osg/briefs/2003/3mer/2mer/2002-1667.mer.aa.html

[YIMA]

97. I don't understand the challenge.

Nor do I agree that people are talking about "how bad the Dems are." It seems that there are those who believe that Kerry should be talking about how the corporate controlled media is trying to shove their version of freedom down our throats, think Kerry should be talking about LIHOP/MIHOP and how Bush planned and carried out 9/11 to put us all in a police state, how we need to completely pull our troops from Afghanistan and Iraq, quit funding Israel, and mind our own business. I mentioned all these things in a thread earlier today.

I don't like that Nader has thrown his hat into the ring but he does have a following among progressives for talking about these issues I've mentioned, and it doesn't seem like Kerry wants to talk about these things which are so important to many who would like to support him otherwise.

I'm voting Kerry, no doubt, but we need the support of the Nader type voters. My suggestion is to get Kerry to start stumping on corporate controlled media, MIHOP/LIHOP, pulling the troops, and no longer funding Israel. He needs to talk about these things in every speech from now until November, and he would attract a whole new group of voters to his camp.

[struggle4progress]

103. You want Kerry to take stands no electable politician can take.

MIHOP/LIHOP is irremediably tin-foil hat stuff for main-stream political discourse. Pulling the troops will be done only slowly to avoid charges of irresponsibility. Issues behind funding Israel are complicated and require some careful attention to detail.

[Pobeka]

98. He's made it abundantly clear we only have 2 political parties that count?

I pose that as a question because that looks like an unintended consequence of his political races, but I think in a important way it has helped some people understand the weaknesses of our political system.

I'm not a Nader supporter, I think he's become to much of an "end justifies the means" type of candidate. I'm not willing to watch my world go to hell just so Nader can miraculously show us how to rise from the ashes. My children deserve a real fight to prevent the hell in the first place.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

99. Damn you nailed it!

I can appreciate much of his past and NOT appreciate his current role. I can agree wit his BASIC complaint, but not in the face of impending ONE party rule due to him dividing moderates, liberals and progressives.

Your second paragraph is better than I could ever put it.

[CWebster]

117. Clinton gave us welfare reform and gave away our airwaves

He was the master of triangulation which ultimately diluted and weakened the identity of the Democratic party pursuing a strategy for shortrange gain only to result in eventual incompetence and weakness. Clinton increased earnings for the top percent, sure, but the middle-class wages stayed stagnant during his administration. Ask Krugman.

Nader:

"Nader's accomplishments have become part of the fabric of American public life. You know that clause on plane tickets that says that if you're bumped, the airline has to reimburse you and put you up for the night? Nader got bumped from an overbooked flight and got angry, and that's why you get treated fairly now. Remember the days before seat belts and air bags? Nader wrote an article for the Nation in 1959 titled "The Safe Car You Can't Buy" and ranted as early as 1975 to Congress that all auto manufacturers should have to install air bags in their cars. People said Nader was a nut. Now car companies advertise that their air bags are the best...
And they helped him crusade for some of the most important reforms this country has seen in the last half-century, including the Freedom of Information Act (1966), the Clean Air Act (1970) and the Consumer Protection Agency (1978). And remember the march on Washington after the near-meltdown at Three Mile Island? Nader organized that and was a key player in changing this country's attitudes toward nuclear power

He also started groups to oversee the public officials who are supposed to work for us. In 1971 he began the Congress Project (which later became Congress Watch), a comprehensive examination of all members of Congress that ended up as a 21,000-page report drawing on the labor of nearly 1,000 volunteers. That same year, he started the Health Research Group and Public Citizen by sending out two mailings to 62,000 contributors that raised more than $1 million.

http://www.salon.com/bc/1999/01/26bc.html

[Forkboy]

129. Well damn,I'm a Dem basher I guess

I personally think Nader is an ego in a suit right now,but I defend Nader on his involvement in 2000.

He was ONE factor among many.There was Katherine Harris,the SCOTUS,the purged voters,the intimidation of voters,etc.All these other factors subvert and undermine democracy.Yet here on DU we rarely see even close to the venom directed at those other factors as we do towards Nader,the one factor that doesn't undermine democracy.It reinforces it.And lets not forget the DEMS THAT VOTED FOR BUSH.Why is there zero anger directed at them?

If this makes me a "naderite" because people are too simple to understand my point then so be it.Label me anything that makes it easier for you to ignore the real,UNDEMOCRATIC ,problems we face.

[buddhamama]

130. ooooh

can i pile on you before someone else does?

i promise i'll be nice, nicer than most anyway, and i bet i'm better looking too!

[Forkboy]

133. heh

As a married man I'm not sure how to answer this one :D

[buddhamama]

138. hmmm

well, i don't have much time- or you don't-
i can only protect you for so long.

all kidding aside,
i agree with your comments concerning Nader.

good to see you. :hi:

[Forkboy]

140. And it's great to see you around

I was starting to worry about you :spank:

:loveya:

[Misunderestimator]

155. Thanks to whoever kicked this... That's been my question as well...

After reading the entire thread (ugh), I have the same question, after not having seen an answer. What has NADER DONE?

[sangh0]

162. Well, we did get one answer

"Nadir went to Seattle"

Quite an accomplishment, eh?