Stop the nader Bashing! Ralph has and is accomplishing much!

[John_H]

Supporting fine companies like Wal-Mart, Occidental Petroleum, Merk, Viacom, and Pfizer.

"As I listen to the vice president espouse his views on campaign finance reform, I look at his investment portfolio and have to ask how that might influence public policy," LaDuke has said, slamming Gore erroneously for "own substantial stock in Occidental Oil Co."

If LaDuke is looking for Occidental stockholders to criticize, she might want to look a little closer to home. In the financial disclosure form Nader filed on June 14, the Green Party presidential candidate revealed that he owns between $100,000 and $250,000 worth of shares in the Fidelity Magellan Fund. The fund controls 4,321,400 shares of Occidental Petroleum stock


http://dir.salon.com/politics/feature/2000/10/28/stocks/index.html

Protecting his workers from the perils of labor unions

"Ralph Nader fired me and two other editors from Multinational Monitor in 1984 for trying to organize a union in our shop. You can look it up in the Washington Post, Columbia Journalism Review and Labor Notes."

http://lists.village.virginia.edu/lists_archive/sixties-l/1288.html

Providing new avenues for GOP donors maxed out to Bush

"AUSTIN, Texas — Independent presidential candidate Ralph Nader is receiving a little help from his friends — and from George W. Bush's friends."

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationalpolitics/2001889252_nader27.html

Bravely running for Prez in the face of resistance from traitorous liberals

"Larry Barnett, a Green who is the former mayor of Sonoma, California, and a current member of its city council, calls any presidential bid "an ego-centered exercise in futility..."

Other concerns are being raised by well-known Green activists who want the party to present a united front against Bush's re-election. At the party's national committee meeting in Washington this July, John Rensenbrink, one of founders... denounced Nader, whom he had vociferously backed in 2000..."People are very focused on stopping the right-wing cabal that has taken over the country. Therefore, the focus has to be on defeating Bush. There's a concern that we'll be deflected from that message because of the baggage Ralph Nader has from 2000. I doubt he can get over 1 percent of the vote."

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20031124&c=1&s=sifry

Relentlessly pointing out that Dems are carbon copies of Republicans and that Gore would have been "indistinguishable" from Bush

Obviously Gore would have cut taxes for the top 1 percent, invaded Iraq, made ant-union executive orders his first order of business,invaded Iraq, nominated Pickering, Ashcroft, and Rumsfeld, invaded Iraq, reduced arsenic-in-water limits, invaded Iraq,pulled out of Kyoto, invaded Iraq, stopped family planning money, and invaded Iraq, etc.

Just look at the indistingushability on the issues of ABORTION, ENVIRONMENT, GAY RIGHTS, GUN CONTROL, HEALTH CARE, INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS, SCHOOL VOUCHERS, SOCIAL SECURITY WELFARE WORKER'S RIGHTS, and WOMEN'S RIGHTS:

http://www.damnedbigdifference.org/issues2.html

http://www.mansfield.ohio-state.edu/~sabedon/homepage_bushnader.htm

Relieving college kids that support him from the gut-wrenching choice of whether to give him money or not

College PIRG groups, which Nader founded and leads despite his denials of control, use an astonishingly undemocratic, even coercive funding mechanism that Ralph designed. Once a college approves, all students are automatically billed a few dollars out of their student fees to support the local PIRG. To avoid paying, students must make a special trip to the Registrar and fill out a form so they can get their $2-6 back."

http://www.realchange.org/nader.htm#PIRG

Putting donations to good use

"His speaking gigs often include first class hotels and and meals, even limousines, and the many organizations he controls -- that's where his tax-deductible contributions go -- cover his expenses as well.

David Sanford of the New Republic documented that residents of a posh neighborhood in Washington -- on Bancroft Place NW -- often spotted him sneaking into an expensive house there.

When the Washington Post's...Maxine Cheshire asked Nader about the reports, he knew every detail of the house's financing and couldn't resist rhapsodizing about what a great tax break buying a house was. "He talks about that real estate investment the way some men talk about sex. He's so excited about the whole idea of tax write-offs and all that. I mean, did I realize that that's the greatest investment you can make, the biggest tax advantage..."

http://www.realchange.org/nader.htm#luxury

Extremely concerned about the danger of germs

"Nader's first concern, after being late, is the ear piece. "Did you wash that?" he asks anxiously. It's not a question to be taken lightly: Nader believes the spread of infectious diseases is a greater security threat than military invasion."

--"Do You Want to Ralph?" The Village Voice, Aug. 2000.

[Dookus]

1. I agree with much of that

but I will defend PIRG funding. Almost all colleges and universities have mandatory student assocation fees that fund a variety of political and social organizations. Students generally are not permitted to pick and choose which ones they want to fund.

When I was in college, there wasn't even a way to get a refund for any portion of it. All students funded NYPIRG, the Gay/Lesbian Alliance, the Jewish Students' Union, etc. etc. etc.

I think schools are better off for it. It allows a variety of voices to be heard, and what better place to be exposed to a broad spectrum of ideas than in college?

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[IA_Young_Dem]

4. Nader helps Bush

much more than he helps Kerry.

[GreenPartyVoter]

6. Welcome to DU

[newyawker99]

15. Hi IA_Young_Dem!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Forkboy]

12. If you have an issue with my posts

address them in the thread they were made in,instead of breaking the rules by calling someone out in another thread.

As for the rest of your post,I agree.

[jpgray]

22. I just hate that we have to generalize each other here

One can have problems with Nader and yet not be one to bash his candidacy, blame him for Bush, or deny the good things he has done or his perfect right to run. Of course, one can have problems with Kerry and support Nader's views, while at the same not being a Bush-enabler, Dem-hater, or whatever title people come up with.

[Forkboy]

23. Fair enough

Point taken

[mdmc]

26. nice to see yall getting along so kindly

:hi:
I'm a Dem. I think Green. lets beat w.

[jobycom]

3. Just another multi-millionaire for Bush

Has anyone calculated how much Nader raked in from Bush's tax cuts?

[GreenPartyVoter]

5. Not as much as the Kerrys or Kennedy clan, I imagine.

[VolcanoJen]

7. Yes, but at least the Kerry and Kennedy clans are actively working...

... to defeat Bush.

[GreenPartyVoter]

8. Well, with the exception of the Goobernator

[jobycom]

14. Who has refused to campaign for Bush out of California

And barely acknowledges him in California.

[VolcanoJen]

17. Is that true? Herr Gropenfuhrer won't campaign for Bush outside Cali?

Seriously? That's pretty cool.

[jobycom]

19. Yep. He says it's because Bush is unpopular in CA, so

he can't build a bipartisan coalition if he campaigns for Bush. Meaning, he'll lose if he works too hard for Bush.

He is still raising funds for Repubs in the state.

[jobycom]

13. Exactly. Kerry is trying to defeat the tax cuts, Nader to make them perman

ent.

[jobycom]

10. He may beat Kerry on income

Kerry's worth a few million. So is Nader. Nader's corporate non-profits are constructed so that he can give money to them, increase his income because they are receiving those extra dollars, and write the donations off as a tax break. Kerry doesn't have that luxury.

Teresa has half a billion or so, but that's her money, not John's.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

40. The thing I'd like a Nader supporter to explain to me is why it is

in poor taste for us to say anything negative about him, but fair game to slam Dems all over this board. What's up with that?

We are told when Greens divide the liberal vote that they owe us nothing being the opposition party, but when Dems strike back, we are told we aren't playing fair...interesting.

[robbedvoter]

9. Translation: Enough Tenet, Chalabi, more about Nader! Please.

Flame war, whatever. Just talk about Ralph. PLEASE!

[jobycom]

11. He's running against kerry, just like Bush, and is just as much a threat

as Bush. So why would he be off limits?

[robbedvoter]

24. Not off limits. he is the opposition. Just greatly exaggerated importance

That's all.

[Forkboy]

25. The trouble is

it seems to be the the people that hate him that are exagerrating his importance.Most people could care less about him one way or the other.In public you'll hear a lot of,"Ralph who". Here on DU he's one stop short of being the anti-christ.It's just silly.

[hippiegranny]

28. the real trouble is

that in several polls, he's pulling 6%. i don't think worrying about 6% in a tight race should be dismissed as exagerrating. maybe it is silly because the percentage will drop as "regular" americans begin to tune into the race, but i don't know that and neither do you.

[jobycom]

31. Untrue.The polls show him as a real threat.

Several polls show that if he is included, he wipes out Kerry's margin of victory. Which means he could give the election to Bush. He didn't in 2000, but he could this time. That's not over-estimating him.

Besides, he's a fraud, and I'll rarely pass up a chance to point that out.

[depakid]

44. And you actually believe what you see in most "polls"

is valid & reliable?

depending on which ones you're talking about and what their methodology is, they don't even accurately gauge public opinion today- much less predict what may happen 5 months from now.

Next time there's a thread about polling and statistical methods (there's usually one about every 3 months) have a read and maybe do a little googling. You'll sleep much better not worrying so much about the Nader factor- or some of Bush's supposed numbers....

[jobycom]

47. You ain't no smerter than me

I understand polling methods quite well, thank you.

Now, to educate you a little better. There are a myriad of ways to rig a poll, or to create a bad poll, or to just accidentally blow it. There are also a myriad of ways to make a very representative, accurate poll. Look back over the past several elections, and what you'll see are a number of polls that blow it, and a few that come close. The ones that come close do so because they are careful, objective, and honest, and because they create the proper formulas to determine their sample set. And these formulas have to change each year, because factors, democgraphics, opinions, and ballots change.

The sample is the key. Pollsters have to make certain assumptions about who will vote, about what demographic set votes along similar lines (blacks vote largely Dem, for instance, but Hispanics vote differently, partly based on where they are from, thus "Hispanic" is not a useful demographic group to base a sample on. Etc.), how income and party affiliation affects voting, all of that. Some polls assume Dems and Repubs vote equally, others give an edge to one or the other group, either through a different interpretation of voting history, or through bias.

Accurate polls find the best samples, using voting history, other polls, etc.

Take the most accurate polls, group them together, and notice the trends, and usually you'll find that the majority of these most accurate polls get it right, maybe not to the percentage point, but in a generalized indication of the way people are leaning. In short, if the majority of these polls say Bush is leading by a lot, he probably is. If they say it is a toss up, it probably is. If they show either candidate leading by one or two points, that's still a tossup.

These polls show Nader sucking away Kerry's margin. It's not one or two flawed and dishonest polls, it is the majority of them. Nader is polling 6% amongst registered voters, a little less amongst likely voters. He also polls strongest, not surprisingly, in close states.

So while it's nice and trendy for the losing side to say "You can't trust polls" (Republicans say that when they are losing, too), and while it is true that there are a lot of useless polls out there, the truth is a lot more complicated than that. You can trust polls, as long as you study them enough to know what their sample groups are meant to find. Throwing out all polls because you don't understand them is like ignoring the weather reports because some are wrong so often. It's a lousy way to plan a picnic.

[John_H]

48. He gives people a cop out.

Obviously, nobody would let Nader run the country, but he lets people on the line avoid making a decision between two guys they may not be thrilled about.

Maybe if nader weren't in the race some of those folks would stay home. Maybe some would vote for chimp. I bet the swing would be at least a +1 for Kerry, and that may make a difference.

That's why we need to let people know who Fidelity Ralph is. If people know what kind of a slimeball he's become, maybe they'll get real about using him as a protest.

[John_H]

32. Tenet and Chalabi aren't trying to help Chimp and neither is polling

at 6.

[mzmolly]

51. Given the fact that RALPH could swing this election to Bush, I'd say

he's worthy of a great deal of attention.

[iconoclastic cat]

16. And now he has gone insane and is trashing his legacy!

He's like a spoiled rock star trashing his motel room, smirking as he leaves minimum-wage workers to clean up after him as he goes in search of the next spotlight.

Dildo.

[sangh0]

18. Not true

Dildos have a useful purpose.

[iconoclastic cat]

20. Ah, yes. You're right.

thanks

[Walt Starr]

21. If this were a two way race between NAder and Bush

I'd seriously consider staying home.

[comradebillyboy]

27. mama don't 'low no nader bashing here

mama don't 'low no nader bashing here,
well, i don't care what momma don't 'low
gonna bash old ralphie any-how
mama don't 'low no nader bashing here

[Skittles]

29. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

[John_H]

38. Finally, a thoughtful response from the pro-nader camp. n/t

[Forkboy]

39. Skittles = Pro Nader?

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

You're killin me here!

[Skittles]

41. that egotistical bastard can ROT IN HELL

I'm AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAing because I'm sick of HEARING about that smarmy f***.

[John_H]

45. My deepest apologies. I can't think of a worse or more insulting mistake!

I thought you were AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAing because you didn't like the way I presented Fidelity Ralph's accomplishments.

I HATE talking about ralph too, believe it or not. But the guy's at six, Team Kerry is going the ignore route (a mistake IMHO) and lots of people don't know what nader's about.

Sorry again. I owe you a virtual beer for my insulting mistake!

:toast:

[Skittles]

59. you are forgiven, my sweet

my KICK-ASS list is full now anyway. :D

[mzmolly]

54. HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

ide the thread if it bugs you man! :P

[wyldwolf]

30. Have your people call my people and... and...

..if we can come to this agreement:

You tell your people to stop Kerry bashing, and I'll ask mine to lay off Nader.

[Nlighten1]

33. Here you go...

http://gnn.tv/countdown

[yorgatron]

34. this is DEMOCRATICunderground NOT

NADERunderground.if you're voting for ralph you don't belong here and should GO AWAY!!!

[BillZBubb]

35. Amen!

These Naderites are beneath contempt and I would hope they don't belong here.

[Forkboy]

36. thats with a small "d"

[Oddman]

37. If your voting for Nader you should go away from here

and quickly check yourself into the nearest mental health facility!!!


Thank the lord there are morans
who will vote for me . . .

[Nlighten1]

42. LOL!

This IS the Democratic Underground...NOT Free Republic...here we WELCOME a free exchange of ideas...

You remind of one of those people holding a sign "America...love it or leave it"

[John_H]

46. I agree with Nlighten1 about this. But I sure wish s/he'd address

each of the FACTS described above, point by point, and explain my Nader deserves the vote of any progressive.

[mzmolly]

52. The link still doesn't work Nlighten.

;)

[mzmolly]

57. Here's one for you...

http://dontvoteralph.org/

[sendero]

43. STOP posting ANYTHING about Nader...

... his lies and treachery render absolutely moot anything good he had ever done.

[mzmolly]

49. Wow. I was just gonna ask who wants to help with a Nader

*dish* thread?!

I've bookmarked this beaut.

Thanks! :hi:

[Forkboy]

55. it's been a good one

but on the Nader thread scale it would get a 6.5 when compared to the Carlos/Jiacinto days.


*sigh*


How ya doing today MZMolly?

[mzmolly]

56. Very good thanks. Yeah, what ever happened to Carlos!?

Oh, that's right, I think I heard ;)

Heck, I personally liked the guy though he was not Mr. tact that's for sure.

I hope that my Nader supporting friends can forgive in advance my coming scrutiny. I see him as a bigger threat than Bush as he can swing the election to Bush's favor while claiming to have the best of intentions. *sigh*

http://dontvoteralph.org/

Peace :hi:

[Forkboy]

58. I dont mind

I certainly dont hold it against you.It's good that you're following up on your concerns,and you do it in a polite way to boot! We may be coming at things from different angles but I definately think we're on the same team.

I personally dont like Nader.I defend him mostly in the context of 2000 for one reason.With all the illegal and undemocratic things that went on in Florida I just can't bring myself to get really pissed at the one and only legal and democratic factor.I do understand why people are mad though,but some of that anger is just downright ugly :scared:

I'm glad you can stay friends with people who do defend Nader though.It's a classy thing to do,and I definately appreciate it.

I hope you have a great weekend!

:hi:

[mzmolly]

60. Right back atcha Forkboy. Some of my best friends support Nader.

In fact, I'm going to dinner with one of them tonight.

Thanks for being cool yourself. I don't like to tangle with the Forkboy... ;)

I agree were on the same team FB, just have different ideas as to how to win the game. :hi:

You have a great weekend yourself :hug:

Adding I don't blame Nader for 2000 either, I just think he is/was full o bologna is all.

XO

[in_cog_ni_to]

50. Nader can kiss my ass.

He should have sat this one out. 2004 is too damn important for his damn EGO to get in the way.

[mzmolly]

53. Yes he should sit this one out. Instead he has decided to play mad

scientist and make a mockery of well intentioned liberals. :(

[TexasSissy]

61. I'm not FORNader,but title of your post is misleading(against de rules)