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Listening to Tom Friedman on NPR got me thinking about Imperialism...

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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-04 03:17 PM
Original message
Listening to Tom Friedman on NPR got me thinking about Imperialism...
I was listening to Friedman describe how well-educated Indians are willing to do jobs for 1/5th the salary Americans expect and I was thinking about how this is a problem that is running the lives of middle and working class Americans today and that it's pretty much 100% caused by imperialism of the last two centuries.

What happened to India was basically that they were progressing along in a pretty nice arc, albeit an arc on a lower trajectory than what was happening in Europe at the same time. The mughal emperorors were making huge achievments in art, architecture, science and math, and a lot of wealth was spreading down to average citizens -- noot an ideal amount of wealth and power, but the arc was on the right trajectory.

The British stepped in and stole a ton of wealth and shipped it off to London. Had they behaved lawfully, they would have had to deal with with Indians in a way that paid them fairly for wealth the British extracted. That wealth would surely have trickled down in a more efficient manner, and would have built up a wealthy, politically powerful middle class. The people in london who got rich off of imperialism wouldn't have gotten as rich, but they would have gotten rich. And certainly many other kinds of people (not at the top of British society, but regular middle class Brits and Indians) would have gotten wealthy off of a stronger Indian middle class.

That didn't happen. Imperialism created this class of people who can now undercut Americans left and right on everything. There isn't even a real indian middle class middle building up, encompassing enough people -- and this is why the BJP lost the last election.

How does this hurt Americans? In the US, you don't see prices going down because of all this work shifted off to places where costs ar lower. In this process of post-imperialism and neoliberalism, there is a huge profit margin. It's for the modern equivalent of the people who benefitted from imperialism in the first half of the 20th century. And that wealth transfer to the top is going to continue to buy the inequitable economy that will continue to punish people who work for a living, whether they're former computer programmers and accountants in the US or underpaid white collar Indians, or whatever.

Like I said, if the imperialists had been forced to play by the same rules in India that they applied to Brits in civil and criminal courts at home, they never would have been able to extract all that wealth with so little compensation which (1) created and economic and political power imbalance at home, and (2) created an irrational economy in which people on one side of the globe could steal the job of someone similarly situated on the other side of the globe with both of them losing -- ie, with neither of them having the political and economic power to compete against the corporations in whose hands all the power is flowing as a result of globalization.

It's so obvious that this cycle is going to go on until either the entire house of cards comes crumbling down or until the neoliberals lose power. It's so important, I think, for people to really get a focus on what's happening all over the world right now. Political and economic power is going straight to the top, and it's ruining the lives of people who work for a living. If a politcian isn't talking about reversing that flow of power, he or she should step aside and we should be voting for politicians who are willing to address this issue.

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rumguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-04 03:20 PM
Response to Original message
1. Who are the politicians addressing this issue?
Kucinich? Nadar?
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-04 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Who is talking about not signing trade deals with countries which don't
protect the environment and labor?

Who says that individuals shouldn't lose their rights to sue corporations?

Who says the tax code needs to be fixed because right now it is nothing more than a wealth preservation system for the wealthy and throws an harness and a saddle on people who work for living and says "giddyup!"?

Who says that a prescription drug program for seniors shouldn't be one that connects a tube from your vesting 401(K) into the pocket of drug industry exectuve?

Who says that affirmative action is not a program that gives people what they don't deserve, but is a program which allows people who want to work hard and contribute access to all the instutions which allow them to do that?

Look for the clues.

If it isn't about flowing power down and out rather than up, and if it isn't about doing what's right for the people who work for a living, it isn't worth doing.
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-04 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
3. It's a global race to the bottom.
Friedman and other globalists don't want to think about the fact that the companies hiring in India and China have no particular love for the Indians or the Chinese. Once those countries get to the place where their people start to expect a real wage for real work, the jobs will move again, to Nigeria or Costa Rica or Indonesia or wherever the labor is cheapest and the government most cooperative.

But forget about anyone talking about the issue in this election. It's far too complicated for the average American voter. People turn against any candidate who's seen as anti-business, no matter what the merits of the argument actually are. This is an issue where we have to hope for the good will of people who haven't made any specific political stand on the issue to at least be better than Bush and the neocons.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-04 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. China is actually doing a pretty remarkable job of passing much of the...
...wealth it creates down to the middle class.

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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-04 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Yes, true, and very good,
but watch US and European corporations pull out as soon as labor gets cheaper elsewhere.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-04 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. It's not the cheap labor US/Europe covets. It's the middle class consumers
Edited on Thu Jun-03-04 04:07 PM by AP
China is creating.

When the US becomes a banana republic, they'll need someone to sell too.
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-04 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Consumers don't do you any good if the stuff they consume
is made somewhere else. We're about to get a harsh education on that subject in this country.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-04 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. That's why china is probably going to be OK.
They're going to manufacture a great deal of what the consume, and they're going to shovel the profits right down to the middle class, who will then do what powerful middle classes do: they'll be the engines of economic growth. And there's more to sell people these days than just manufactured goods. The US sells a lot of financial serivces around the world, and they find a lot of ways to steal out of the pockets of the middle class without exchanging any goods at all.
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-04 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. I hope you're right about China.
I hope they manage to keep their capital and their industrial base at home.

You are certainly right about financial services. However, service jobs are also being outsourced to wherever the labor is cheapest. People "consume" services also, and woe betide anyone who consumes more than they produce (excepting the bosses themselves) in the long run.
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-04 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
5. Listening to Friedman on Jon Stewart last night gave me
an enormous urge to toss my lunch.

So I changed the channel.

He is worthless spittle. Spider drivel. Gnat shit.

A warmongering little pissant.
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-04 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Well, he's had some good stuff to say in his time.
He came right out after Bush v Gore to point out that the Supreme Court had stolen the election for Bush. He has been extremely critical of the Bush administration lately.

But he's got blinders on regarding globalization, and it is taking him for-freakin'-ever to wake up about Iraq.
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-04 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. The last article I read by Mr. Moron was titled:
"Just Give War a Chance" in November before the invasion. He was screeching at anyone who opposed the invasion. He said it would all be glorious and bring democracy to the M.E. He is a PNAC FREAKAZOID.

I have nothing but contempt and disgust for this putz. He still thinks it was just a GREAT idea, but the invasion wasn't done "properly' which is why it failed. MuckingSuckingFucking blood on his hands imp.

He is repulsive and beyond redemption.


(damn. I need a cigarette. that felt good) :-)
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Mayberry Machiavelli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-04 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. His current "party line" is that it's STILL NOT TOO LATE for IraqNam
to turn just peachy and everything to turn out great. Even though it's pretty fukt. Not too different from David Brooks.
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LiberalEconomist Donating Member (293 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-03-04 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Tom Friedman
is a clueless prick. The guy needs to lay off of the bad hash. I mean, one would expect better out of someone who proports to know the region (the Middle East) very well. Well Tom, while we Americans measure history in decades, the people of Mesopotamia measure theirs in milenia. Here is a clue, Tom: the Crusades.
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