I'm voting for Kerry but..SIGH...I wish it were Dean with the nom

[Taverner]

If Dean were the Democratic Nominee, right now we wouldn't be sitting around wondering who Kerry was, or wasn't
...the Right wouldn't have any talking points on the nom flip flopping (not that Kerry does, but Dean has always been more clear than Kerry.)
...The election wouldn't be as much Anti-Bush as it would be Pro-Dean
...There wouldn't be any of this "extend the troops" jibber jabber
...GLBT America would know the nominee puts his money where his mouth is on gay marriage
...There would be an exit strategy in Iraq
...20-somethings wouldn't have to worry about the draft
...The media would be paying more attention.

Don't get me wrong, Kerry will have my vote and I honestly feel he'll make a FINE president. But Kerry is NOT motivational. I've seen him speak and he's an OK speaker, but you really have to force yourself to pay attention. Dean, on the other hand, made you want to run out and tear up the streets for the guy.

Ok rant over. Vote Kerry.

[Dookus]

1. and if Dean were the nominee

we'd be mourning the fact that the Dem candidate was 10-15 points behind Bush.

[Taverner]

4. I highly doubt that

Right now people want a new vision. Those who are dissatisfied with Bush are yearning for a new vision. Kerry may have that new vision, but he's never articulated it. Dean has.

[ScreamingMeemie]

10. Oh come on Dook. Even you have to admit that with all the implosion

going on by Bush, things are looking brighter everyday. The fence sitters at my husband's work were all really interested in what Dean had to say, and now are lukewarm on Kerry. That's conjecture and I think it's untrue.

However you feel about any candidate, a banana split would be leading Bush right now. :hi:

[Dookus]

13. Sorry, Mrs. G

I simply disagree.

Naturally, there's no way to test how Dean would be doing against Bush, but his poor showing in the primaries indicates that he couldn't even appeal to a sizable plurality of Democrats, much less independents.

His anger appealed to people who really hate Bush, but the sorry fact is, most Americans don't hate him.

Further, Americans will only change presidents in wartime IF they perceive the new guy to be more capable on the issue than the incumbent. I don't think Dean ever gave America the warm fuzzies that he'd be a good Commander-in-Chief.

[ScreamingMeemie]

17. That's not what appealed to my husband or his coworkers...

it was the strong stance on what had to be done. It was his direct answers. Kerry has yet to come to Michigan and address many of their concerns. :(

No, pretty much the media did Dean in. It's traceable...but I've always been ABB, so Kerry gets my vote anyway

and...

I still love you, so does Jessie. ;)

[Dookus]

22. and I adore you and Jessie

but I don't buy the line that the media did Dean in.

No candidate in history ever got all-positive press. Dean's press wasn't any worse than the other candidates', and in fact, he got pretty glowing treatment for quite awhile.

As you remember, I supported Clark. He got precious little press coverage, but I never blamed the media for that - it was Clark's responsibility to get in the news. He didn't.

If a primary candidate can't handle the media well, he doesn't deserve to win, because he'll be an awful general election candidate. That's always been the case.

[ScreamingMeemie]

54. So you are okay with "the scream" and then finding out it was

kinda edited? I don't think something to that effect has happened before. Dean handled the media extremely well. They and the DLC wanted him out, so out he went.

[Dookus]

61. but it wasn't

read the thread here from that night. It had a hundred posts discussing how bizarre it was in a matter of minutes - BEFORE it was ever repeated or aired elsewhere. We watched it live. It was bizarre. I said within minutes of the scream that it was going to be Dean's "Dukakis in a tank" moment. I, and many others here, KNEW it would get a lot of play - not because the media were out to get him - but because it was a truly bizarre moment in political history.

[dsc]

16. flat out false

Every poll suggests that a solid majority of Kerry's voters are voting for him based on hatred of Bush. Presumedly they still would hate him.

[Dookus]

23. I said

the majority of Americans don't hate Bush.

That's flat-out false?

[dsc]

25. I am disputing the idea that Dean would be 10 to 15 points behind

Given that a huge majority of Kerry's voters (not all voters) hate Bush. Presumedly those voters would still hate Bush.

[Dookus]

29. well

as I said above, there's no way to test that.

But I can use as evidence the fact that Dean did very poorly in the primaries. He appealed strongly to a small minority of people. Kerry was able to appeal to far more people.

[dsc]

32. Kerry isn't really appealing to many people now

Most of his voters hate Bush. In Ohio 62% of Kerry's voters list hatred of Bush as the reason they are voting for him. That isn't Kerry appealing to anyone.

[mandyky]

39. Kerry did so poorly in the primaries

the media was asking when he would drop out. Dean did not do poorly in the primaries, kerry just won Iowa and due to the frontloaded primary season, people rallied behind him.

[Dookus]

46. LOL

He did poorly in the primaries?

He won almost every one. Dean won his home state. That's it.

[AntiCoup2K4]

19. Bullshit

The polls are mostly crap anyway, and they change daily. But if Kerry can lead after doing next to nothing, then Dean would be kicking chimp ass entirely.

[Dookus]

24. well

then Dean should've won more primaries if that were true.

[jpgray]

2. Well, measure all that vs. Dean's inability to get votes

More than I want an exciting campaign and candidate, and a superior position on Iraq (I don't think anyone could argue that Dean has those in his favor), I want to get Bush out. Maybe the environment has changed, but during the primaries, Dean simply could not get the votes, for one reason or another. And of course people will offer many different reasons for WHY he didn't get them, depending on where they stand and what their biases are.

edit: Also, while the media script on Dean would be different (angry! crazy! commie lefty pinko!), he would still be eviscerated on a daily basis by the pundits. Perhaps the leftist criticism would be more muted.

[NMDemDist2]

3. i saw Dean live (but never Kerry--JK on TV) Dean didn't do a thing

for me. I wasn't impressed with his speaking style nor his content (other than the Bush baiting)

Sorry guys (donning flame retardant suit) Dean never had it IMO

[newsguyatl]

5. AMEN especially to that last one

i sympathize... but we gotta step in line with kerry and bring others with us.

there will be somewhere important for dean, he's not goin' away ANY time soon.

[jjmalonejr]

6. I'm glad it's Kerry

Dean's aggressive style made it very easy for people to jump to conclusions about him (right or wrong, pro or con).

Kerry's more thoughtful and nuanced style makes it more difficult to get to know him, but that could prove to be a good thing. I'm betting that as the election draws nearer and people feel they know everything they need to know about Bush, they will take a careful look at Kerry.

Polls may show that more people want to go to a BBQ with Bush, but I'm not convinced that (at the end of the day) that's what people will be looking for in a President come November. I'm also not convinced that Dean's "take no prisoners" approach is what people would have been looking for.

I think Kerry is just the ticket. He's clearly very smart, well spoken, he seems to understand the issues, and he has YEARS of valuable experience and public service. In other words, Presidential.

[robbedvoter]

7. Voting Kerry is much easier than voting Dean. In spite of IWR

No discovering Jesus, no secret documents, no confederate flags. And Kerry supporters were NEVER nasty to me.

[dsc]

18. Yeah instead we have a man

who is on his second marriage who tells me that for religious reasons I can't marry. Someone who for the last three years has been either a no show in the Senate or a fairly conservative Democrat. A candidate whose position on the war is unitelligable. Two can play that game.

[Dookus]

31. And

when given the chance to enact gay marriage in Vermont, Dean failed to do so.

[dsc]

55. Read Civil Wars

and get back to me. Even the one and only openly gay man in the Vermont House voted against it. Sadly I couldn't show people here how manifestly dishonest you where in real time but now I can. I have posted several times how there weren't the votes for it as even the only openly gay member of the Vermont House could see. If you really want to go there I will. The book came out too late but it showed exactly what it took to get that bill passed. Your manifest dishonestly notwithstanding.

[dsc]

56. BTW Here is what really happened

Here is what Bill Lippert, the only openly gay Vermont legislator, said about this. Lippert understood that members of the Legislature were terrified of the issue of gay marriage and they would be hardly less terrified of domestic partnership. He had spoken privately with some members, hoping if there were ever a bill to make gay marriage illegal, they would vote against it. Fellow members of the Judiciary Committee had agreed they would oppose such a bill, but some wanted Lippert to promise they would never have to vote on a bill which would legalize gay marriage. Lippert has assured them they wouldn't have to do that. That was being taken care of in the courts. Or so he had hoped. (pp 21-22)

Here he is again on page 154. Bill Lippert also understood the difficulty of pushing for marriage, but he felt additional pressure becasue the gay community was looking to him as their man in the Legislature. They saw him as the one who could make marriage happen. He knew otherwise. It was possible they could win support for marriage from a majority on a divided Judiciary Committee, but he believed it would be impossilbe through the full House. It was Tom Little's (Judiciary Chair) estimate that there were only thirty to thirty-five votes in the House for marriage.

Here from page 186, By this time (Feb 7), many of the committee members had concluded that marriage was the right thing to do but that it would be impossible to win passage for a marriage bill in the House. Represenatative Michael Vinton, like Edwarss, was a retired state trooper and was part of a small group of conservative Democrats who called themselves the Blue Dogs. He had sat in the committee hearings waiting for the opponents to give him a reason to oppose the bill, and he continued to be disappointed. "I would have gone right ahead for marriage but I didn't think we could have got it through the House."

Page 187 John Edwards, Michael Vinton, Cathy Voyer, Alice Nitka, Michael Kainen, and Diane Carmolli (Judiciary Committee members) all made statements recognizing that domestic partnership was a compromise, but a necessary one.



Dean didn't have a magic wand or a decoder ring. Unless you are now going to take the position that the entire Vermont House Judiciary Committee are liars or that David Moats who won a Pulitzer for his coverage of this issue is a liar, then the only position left is that people like you who claim that Dean could have passed this law are profoundly mistaken or dishonest. It is as simple as that.

[Skittles]

8. Kerry was NOT the best candidate

it still pisses me off that he had it locked before I could even vote (Texas).

[Dookus]

15. Why does it piss you off?

The primary/caucus system wasn't invented this year.

As I said a thousand times during the primary ugliness, if having your primary vote count is the most important thing to you, move to Iowa.

I live in California. The nominee is usually decided before I get to vote, but it never pissed me off.

Kerry wasn't my preferred candidate going in, but he won, and did so rather decisively.

[Skittles]

34. sorry to whomever replied

I have you on IGNORE

[Dookus]

47. heehee

Hi Skittles :hi:

Sorry you can't handle people disagreeing with you.

[iconoclastic cat]

9. Why are you doing this to yourselves?

Eyes on the prize, be the ball, and all that! Come on!

[KharmaTrain]

11. Time To Move On...Lots Of Work Still To Do

Unlike the GOOP, where Bunnypants bought his nomination in 2000 before the primaries, the Democrats had an open and long campaign...where all the candidates were able to express their visions for this country and why they would be the best to be the President. Dean, for all his energy and ideas and positions, fell short (scream or no) and Kerry won openly and fairly. Time now to focus on the election ahead and removing this regime.

While it'd be great to have a candidate who looks like he'd be fun to party with or is real big on my special interest, we need someone with leadership abilities and the connections and knowledge that can get our asses out of this Iraq mess and restore a sense of sanity to this country. In my opinion, and I didn't support any candidate during the primaries, Senator Kerry offers all this and more. This is supposed to be about the most qualified people, not the best looking or "coolest". Substance vs. surface.

[I thought so.]

12. Dean quit.

A winner never quits(Kerry). And a quitter never wins(Dean). Dean is fine entertainment,but not presidential timber.
And I know its hard for the youngsters to figure this out.

[AntiCoup2K4]

21. Again with the condescending "youngster" crap from the DLC operatives....

Kerry's a "winner"?? You don't win if you don't fight, and Kerry spends far too much time agreeing with the unelected bastard in the White House, supporting sickening warmongering fascist ideologies that NO AMERICAN, let alone no Democrat, should be endorsing.

[Dookus]

26. "You don't win if you don't fight"

Well, Kerry won the nomination, and he's beating Bush in the polls.

Today, where does Dean's stance on what to do in Iraq differ from Kerry's? The fact that the war occurred is now history, and in fact, Dean supported a slightly different war resolution than the one Kerry voted for. Their stances really aren't all that different.

But again, that's in the past. Where does Dean's stance on how we move forward differ from Kerry's?

[Nlighten1]

42. A ham sandwich could beat Bush.

Kerry is beating Bush in the polls why exactly? Well, it has less to do with Kerry and mostly to do with Bush. America has Bush fatigue and in a big fat way.

The polls are lying too...I think Kerry is going to landslide Bush in a way America has probably NEVER seen.

I can't tell you how many Republicans I have spoken with that say they won't vote for Bush again. Even my parents, hardcore Republicans, say "No Bush".

[I thought so.]

36. Dean lost.

The voters decided. I guess you don't believe in democracy. The "big time wrestling act" was a loser.

Dean had endorsements,great press,40 million dollars and grassroots,but his campaign blew up on the launch pad in Iowa. A pisspoor third.

[Taverner]

35. Dean didn't "quit", but Kerry did "win"

And by that I mean fair and square - I will be the first to admit Dean made some big mistakes while on top - expecting the coronation from Carter was one. This, plus his treatment of the media led to his downfall.

And Kerry did win, he got the most votes.

But Dean was not a quitter, and he did the honorable thing by standing by Kerry fast after losing.

[dsc]

38. You gotta realize that for that poster Dean can do no right

If Dean were still in the race this very same poster would be whining that Dean won't do the right thing by dropping out. Dean could cure cancer and that poster would whine the medicine didn't taste good enough.

[trof]

14. Pity the poor repugs.

They don't have a choice.
We did.
I'm down with Kerry.

[PhuLoi]

20. Me and my wife too.

Although our favorite was Kucinich. Bugger NAFTA and the WTO. Most of all bugger the whole corporatocracy.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

27. Actually there was an antiwar candidate with ten times more experience

than both of them who had governed a large state twice with excellent results.

Unfortunately, America no longer values qualifications near as much as they value partisanship and frothing at the mouth so Bob Graham didn't stand a snowball's chance in hell and could barely raise a dime...

Some positions of Kerry's make me uncomfortable but not near as many as I appreciate...I think he will make a great president.

I also think that Dean's own mismanagement did him in..the guy had MILLIONS to work with in place before anyone else and could have easily overcome the scream speech which I DO blame the media for...still all in all...he is the one who CHOSE to blow his wad on two primaries even PRIOR to that speech leaving him underfunded in the next several states...that was HIS OWN misdeed.

And I would much prefer the guy who parses his words carefully over the guy who steps all over his tongue..speaks off the cuff and then has to backtrack and explain himself.

I support Kerry 100% and had Dean gotten the nomination, I wouldn't be whining about him but supporting him BALLS TO THE WALL.

Win now...you got a gripe...DEAL WITH IT IN AN ORGANIZED manner later.

[dsc]

30. Graham's health and age may have been part of the problem

For me his record on gay rights was a huge problem. But of course I just didn't value experience that is why I wouldn't vote for the man.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

37. Funny you'll allow one to discriminate on the basis of age and health

as noted by your post, but man, let someone say something negative about a gay man and you'll be all over it like white on rice...that's called a double standard.

[dsc]

40. The man had heart surgery and was in his 60's

His health was bad enough he decided to quit the Senate, in some part due to his health. Yeah, I think that one should maybe, just maybe, consider the ability to survive his term as a qualification for the job. But maybe not. Maybe having him die of a coronary the first year in would be OK. My dad, who has had heart surgery twice decided not to vote for him on that basis. My problem, AS I STATED BUT YOU CHOSE NOT TO READ, was his views about gays. BTW my dad is 69 so I doubt he is ageist.

[mitchum]

41. LOL!!!

well done :)

[dsc]

44. too bad she didn't read my post

but I guess it is fine to lie about Dean supporters. My post clearly stated that MY PROBLEM WITH GRAHAM WAS HIS POSITION ON GAY RIGHTS. While I didn't say whose problem his age and health was one of those was my 70 year old dad who has had two heart surgeries. But I am sure both you and she know far more about people in their 60's with heart surgery then he does. It isn't like he had heart surgery himself. No wait it is like that.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

45. Like Dick Cheney?

[dsc]

48. My dad sure as heck didn't vote for him either

His history is actually very simliar to Cheney's except he doesn't have the fancy gadget Cheney has. My dad's first bypass (a quintuple) was in 1978 and his second one (a quadruple) was in 1991. He was born in 1935 so you can do the math. I rounded his age up. He knows how bad such a stressful job is for someone with the type of condition he has. Heck, I see how weak his is and it scares me. Cheney would be dead now if he were President, I am pretty sure of that. My dad is retired and naps daily. He has no health problems aside from the heart stuff either so it is all that.

[dsc]

53. Oh and one other thing

I wouldn't have voted for a gay man or a lesbian woman in the Presidential primaries this year or in the forseeable future. I don't think one can get elected. But I am sure you will just call me a liar or something but I honestly don't give a damn.

[emulatorloo]

28. [Kerry] knows how to wait until people are paying attention

Kerry is playing chess w bush, not checkers

Joe Klein, Time magazine:

<snip>

But if nothing else, Kerry has a sophisticated sense of political timing; he knows how to wait until people are paying attention. "I've been with him through six campaigns, and he always scares you in the beginning," a Kerry stalwart told me last week. "But he's always right there in October."

<snip>

http://www.time.com/time/election2004/columnist/klein/article/0,18471,638338,00.html

[denverbill]

33. Dean had me for several reasons.

#1-straight talk. He didn't search for the politically correct word or phrase. He spoke his mind.
#2-common sense. He believed in health insurance for everyone, but not by bankrupting the state. He created a rainy day fund for Vermont that saved Vermont a lot of the pain other states have suffered through recently.
#3-balls. He criticized a 'war President' when NO OTHER NATIONAL LEADER WOULD. All the others were kowtowing in their hidey-holes, eager to prove how much they supported the President.

Dean wasn't a great speaker. He wasn't great looking. He didn't have a trophy wife.

But he drove a beat up 1993 Jeep. His wife worked full-time professionally, was Jewish, and kept her maiden name. His entire wealth came from the money they'd made as doctors and as governor, and was all socked away in CD's and savings accounts.

We need more people like that in politics.

[RetroLounge]

43. While I agree, there will be no substantive discussion

Just the Dean Haters, and we *know* who they will be.

The usual suspects pop up every time Dean is mentioned in a thread.

He lost, but he's supporting Kerry 100%, he's good for the Dem party, and he kicks Repug Ass. But the Dean Haters are still soooo damn scared of Dean, Dean Supporters, or anyone who mentions Dean in a positive light, that they cone out of the woodwork to bash him.

Pathetic...

RL

just another vote against bush*, not FOR Kerry. :Yawn:

[emulatorloo]

50. I don't know RL, looks like it is bringing out the "Kerry Haters" instead

At any rate, I love Howard Dean, I am so happy to see him fighting the good fight.

I am hoping that HD will be right there in the Kerry admin, and here's hoping for another run in 2012.

[onecitizen]

49. I know........

I miss him too. Sometimes I think I care waaaayy too much for him.;)

[Speck Tater]

51. I was a very active Dean supporter and

I don't really care for Kerry much at all.

BUT

I honestly think Kerry is presently doing better than Dean would be doing if he had won the nomination. The fact is virtually ALL of us Dean supporters are perfectly willing to hold our nose and vote for Kerry, but DAMN FEW swing voters and moderates would have been willing to hold their noses and vote for Dean.

As much as I like Dean, and as actively as I supported him, he remains, in the final analysis, unelectable. And though I wish like hell it wasn't true, sadly, it is true.

[Taverner]

59. I dunno

Its hard to say, since Dean didn't win.

Very true that if he had continued with mistakes like expecting the coronation from Carter and all, he would have appeared too arrogant.

However, Dean does much better in soundbites than Kerry. From Dean we had "Take back America!" ,"I want my country back!", "You have the power!" and "I don't want our country led by TV preachers anymore!"

Kerry hasn't defined himself yet, and has no soundbites to show. Now I'll admit that's petty, but that's what drives an election - a soundbite that can be played every time theres a generic news story on the candidate.

[wyldwolf]

52. OK! We get it! There are Dean supporters who are still pining for Dean

[ScreamingMeemie]

57. As there would be Kerry supporters who....

Well you get the idea. When you closely identify with a candidate, it's a tough thing to think of what could have been.

As for Kerry, I'd like to see him start gunning now that Bush is down. :hi:

[Taverner]

60. Exactly! When's Kerry gonna open up that can of whoop ass?

He has Bush in his sights - he just needs to reload, lock and fire!

[GreenPartyVoter]

58. Me, I wish it was Dennis and Howard