A call for restraint about Reagan

[Armstead]

I realize this is an exercise in futility, but I'll say this anyway.

Call me old fashioned, but I believe death deserves dignity.

Unfortunately, at DU, death often brings out the worst in us. It happened when Wellstone died, it has happened on other occassions. And I fear it will happen when Reagan passes.

Whatever one thought of Reagan, he is a human being, and will deserve a period of respect -- as do all humans. Such things are beyond politics. Nor is it hypocritical to allow at least a pause in criticisms. It's just basic human decency and respect for life.

I realize that the GOP and the media will wallow in it to an excessive degree. For that reason, TV will be a place to avoid when it happens.

But unfortunately DU will be a place to avoid too, because of the immature vulture instincts that will be stirred up in some here. It's already starting, just at the possibility that the end may come soon.

Not only is it unseemly and ghoulish, but it hurts DU and the image of liberals in general. This place does get read by a wide cross section of people, and you know the opponents of DU will be here cherrypicking the worst posts to show how boorish and insensitive we all are.

I hope you all will show some restraint and respect, and not get into an orgy of bad taste and insulting idiocy when it happens. Try and bite your tongue (or typing finger) and allow the period of national mourning pass.

Personally, I feel badly for he and his family for what they have been through the last few years. Although I totally disagree with his politics, I do believe he was fundamentally decent and did what he thought was right. I will leave it at that.

[Jacobin]

1. Thank you.

This dancing on the grave stuff is puerile.

[Bozita]

2. I agree

Completely.

Thanks for the post.

[Cheswick2.0]

3. Kick

!

[Justice]

4. Agree With Sentiment

I totally disagree with his politics.

I am respectful of the suffering to him and his family caused by his illness. I appreciate that Nancy broke with the republicans and publicly called out for stem cell research to resume.

I have nothing more to say, but don't think it helps anything to bash the man or his family at this time.

[papau]

9. I agree - n/t

n/t

[w13rd0]

5. Just as there will be those that make tasteless comments...

...there will be those that denounce them, some that are willing participants in the effort to make Reagan a saint, and still others that will say that the circumstances of his passing are not anything we'd wish on anyone, he was still an empty suit of a President who has had far more importance and idolatry put upon him than many can stomach.

[Sterling]

106. I dont want to dance on his grave but he must not be sainted.

And I wont be quite about that fact. I feel for and animal suffering, even a repuke. Doesn't mean I will participate in cannonizing a person with a lot of bad deeds to their credit like RR.

[Walt Starr]

6. I disliked the man, I protested the man, I voted against the man

but yes, he's dying. He's 93 years old. His mind has been gone for longer than he's been an ex-president. I'll have some compassion about the man dying.

There is a bright spot in this. My fear was he'd die during the Democratic National Convention.

[Union Thug]

15. I have about as much compassion for him...

as he had for the workers he fucked and those that his policies murdered in central america.

blah... Keep your compassion for somebody who deserves it.

[Walt Starr]

20. Karma got him on all of that shit long ago

Reagan has not been Reagan since about 1986. His mind has been gone nearly two decades.

Karma got the SOB.

[Armstead]

39. Compassion is not selective

Compassion is not easy. But it is not selective either. The true test is applyong compasion to those you dislike or disagree with.

[stopbush]

96. I will accord Reagan the same amount of respect I afforded Nixon

when he died.

I leave it to you to decipher just how much respect that entails...

[Zynx]

7. I will only feel badly for his family.

He was a bastard responsible for thousands of deaths in El Salvador and Guatemala among other places. Mass murderers don't deserve my respect.

[ps1074]

8. Reagan is still not dead

Meanwhile people can talk about him whatever they want to.

I believe when he dies everyone here will behave in a proper manner :)

[DAGDA56]

10. I'll go along with that..

...being no fan of RR I will still refrain from the cheap comment when his time comes, both here at DU and out in the world. Actually, I wonder if it might not do our side some good for Reagan loving Repugs to be reminded 24/7 of what they had then...compared with what they have now.

[Somawas]

14. So true

Dudya makes even me nostalgic for RR.

[Lou_C]

36. I miss the job cuts and Iran Contra

Raygun was a saint I tell you!

[Union Thug]

77. and I miss the union busting,

and the homophobia, October Surprise. Geez, I miss those good old days.. where my family went from being a blue collar household with a union father who brought home a decent paycheck, to one where we ate government cheese.

yeah, I miss those good old days.

Again, fuck Reagan and anyone that supports him.

[Lou_C]

87. I also miss his trickle down economics

Rayguns system worked so well that Clinton didn't have a mess to clean up.

[Cooley Hurd]

11. As I posted in another thread...

...that if one shows no compassion for Reagan, saying it's because Reagan had no compassion for others, then that makes one a hypocrite.

Needless to say, I was flamed for it...

[Charley_Dog]

12. Call me old fashioned...

Very well stated. Words to live by. Thank you.

[Q]

13. There are about three 'liberals' on this board...

...so why would it hurt THEIR image?

- It seems to me that FREE SPEECH should dictate what DUers have to say about Reagan. You think he was 'decent'...but many others believe he was no better than Bush* the Unelected and directly or indirectly caused the death of THOUSANDS of innocents.

- Ignore history and depots like Reagan and Bush* at your own peril.

[Armstead]

17. I didn't say ignore history

But there's a time and a place for everything.

And free speech does not have to mean bad taste.

[Selwynn]

104. It's never bad taste to tell the truth.

Regan was a terrible president. That has nothing to do with Regan the person.

The idea that "oh the poor guy is dying we should not say a negative word about his administration" is pretty much like "how dare you criticize the president in wartime" bull crap.

You need to realize that it would be wrong for me go up to the family of Regan and start telling them all the reasons I felt Regan was a terrible president during this time where they are hurting. That would probably be pretty indecent.

But commenting on how terrible Regan was as President on political boards is exactly what should be going on in political boards - and I don't see why his personal life and problems are relevant.

[Selwynn]

101. Agree - telling the truth about policy != "hate" He was a terrible pres.

And there's nothing wrong about saying so. Making tasteless comments, well they are just that - tasteless. But in a country where free expression is protected, the burden should be on you to deal with it, not on everyone else to censor themselves to your liking.

Don't get me wrong - I used to write the moralizing posts on almost every board I went to - as though I was somehow the saintly and perfect conscience of the boards. But then I realized that the person in need of the biggest attitude adjustment was me, as I only looked ridiculous trying to tilt windmills and stress about everyone else's "behavior" rather than simply focusing on the quality of my own contribution.

Proud member of the 3 liberal club,
Sel

[slor]

16. Yes, most "decent" people...

willingly fund death squads in Central America. Look, I too find it unpleasant to joke about the death of others, but I do not for a minute believe in giving my sympathy towards people that helped commit atrocities, and I will not pass judgment on people that find righteous humor in the death of such criminals.

[Cooley Hurd]

21. Are you sure he had knowledge of it?

Most biographies I've read about Reagan and his tenure as President indicate he was quite hands-off in regards to Iran-Contra, et. al.

Poppy Bush (and/or Babs) is another matter, completely...

[Rabrrrrrr]

25. If he didn't know, then he was criminally negligent

he should have known; and/or once he found out, he should have dealt with it properly and fired and put in prison and/or forced resignations from everyone involved.

Either way he's guilty - he either knew, making him guilty, or once he found out, he didn't care, making him guilty.

[1monster]

71. His mind was already gone...

I never liked Reagan, but neither was I ever impressed with his intellect. He probably was out of the loop. The guy had an impressive ability to act the part of a decent guy who happened to be President, but I'm not convinced he had any real understanding of the script.

He may have been criminally negligent or he could have been a clueless puppet used by those who kept him happy with jelly beans and the assurance that he was doing the right thing.

Even if he was competent and the mover and shaker behind all of those dreadful policies, the man is essentially already dead and has been for years. Only his body still lives.

[Pepperbelly]

18. Do you remember Rush's comments when Jackie O died?

He said that the grave would be no colder than the bed she shared with JFK.

[Armstead]

23. I would like to think we're better than Rush

/nt

[Pepperbelly]

28. I really don't consider myself "better" than anyone else ... just ....

different. But you are right in that it would be loathesome to dogpile onto a corpse but at the same time, I think that we have to fight the coming effort to cannoize the old bastard, carve his mug on Rushmore, and insert him into the Pledge of Alliegence.

[PeaceForever]

65. Agreed, but that's different than gloating over someone's death. n/t

[Armstead]

70. You got it

It's the gloating and the glee that's really bad.

[Sterling]

111. No we are all better than Rush.

Its ok to say it. We are talking about Rush. I am not better than most but I am certainly "better" than the evil monsters that are trying to destroy everything good in the world. I am also better than Ann Coulture and Hitler. I know i have set the bar very low but you do have to be realistic.

Am I better than you? Now that may or may not be too close to call. I think it is that way with normal people. We may just be "different". But we are "better" than Rush and his ilk without question.

[PeaceForever]

62. 2 wrongs don't make a right. n/t

[Bozita]

80. That's exactly the kind of stuff I'd rather not see or hear at DU...

... but then, it's not quite the same as shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater.

There will be freepers posting inflammatory shit here. Let's not turn these forums into an ammunition dump for those assholes.

[WilliamPitt]

19. I respect that, but have no intention of following suit

I'm not much for flailing on sick people. My own grandmother spiraled down with the same disease Reagan suffers, so I know exactly how bad it is.

BUT.

There is a lot of truth that needs telling. Go read Hunter S. Thompson's obituary for Nixon. It was titled "He Was A Crook."

You know what? He was right to swing the axe.

[w13rd0]

30. Oh yeah...

...I remember that. THAT was good. I was momentarily astounded by all the good words everyone was shedding for Nixon back then. His obit was a welcome reality check.

We shouldn't be in the habit of whitewashing the living or the dead...

[Armstead]

48. I just think there is a time and a place for everything

I agree that there is obviously a lot to be said. But as one of my favorite songs (Turn,Turn,Turn) says "To everything there is a season..."

That includes a perioid of respectful silence.

I don't see this as the same situation as Gonzo and Nixon. Everyone basically knew Nixon was a crook and agreed with it, so Thompson wasnt breaking any new ground. And all Hunter Thompson was doing was preaching to the choir.

[WilliamPitt]

52. "all Hunter Thompson was doing was preaching to the choir"

...which makes telling the truth in *this* instance all the more important.

[Rabrrrrrr]

22. NOTHING is wrong with speaking the truth, even for dead people

or those near death.

I hate this "Can't speak ill od the dead" bullshit. If what one is saying is malicious and erroneous and lies, then of course it's wrong, but speaking the truth is speaking the truth, even if it's pointing out someone's bad spots.

Nothing wrong with speaking ill about dead parents, dead children, dead friends, whatever, as long as it's true.

Faux-nicety for fear of "disturbing the dead" or "dishonoring the dead" is unhelpful, unhealthful, and wrong. If the person had no or little honor before death, why should we give it to them afterward? What are we supposed to say about Hitler? "Wow - great social planner"? "Gee, what a charismatic leader he was!" No, Hitler was a complete bastard and so was/is Reagan.

Reagan helped kick the destruction of this country into high gear; he was a hypocrite who wanted the government to meddle in our personal affairs; he was a traitor to his country, doing many illegal things, including slaughtering thousands in Central America. Even his children found him to be a bastard.

There is nothing I can think of that is good about Reagan that merits saying it. Most everything he did, starting with "rooting out communists in Hollywood" was wrong, immoral, unethical, and dangerous.

The only good thing I can think of that he did was standing in front of the Berlin Wall and yelling "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!"

[leyton]

24. I think what the original poster is saying is...

let's not rejoice because the guy dies. There are plenty of people here who I would expect to post how glad they are that Reagan passed away or whatever (when it happens). Let's stay respectful - it's okay to criticize his policies, but keep it in good taste.

[Union Thug]

26. Tear down this wall...

..so that my big business buddies can change faux communism into real corporatism!!!

[Rabrrrrrr]

37. Well, the motives were wrong,

but the sentiment was right. :-)

[Cooley Hurd]

109. I'm not one to sugarcoat anything in regards to Reagan...

He was a horrible President whose legacies (and there are many) will unfortunately haunt and taunt us for years to come. For that, I will never forgive him.

But to show glee about his (impending) death is wrong, especially considering that two of his children are our allies (Ron Jr & Patti Davis). And don't forget that Nancy single-handedly quashed the "Reagan Dime" movement, which would've robbed my hero, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, of the honor.

My respect for them overrules whatever I feel for Reagan the man...

[Kanary]

27. As we keep being told about all sorts of tasteless posts.......

If you don't like it, don't read it.

So far, from what I've seen, the threads containing anger expressed towards The Evil One have been clearly labeled, with warnings to read at your own peril. Seems to me to be a *very* fair approach to those of you who are offended. Asking others not to express themselves in the face of such evil isn't very considerate of those of us who have suffered from this "man" (and I use the term *very* loosely).

I only wish that there was as much concern and respect for those who DIED because of The Evil One. Even now, "liberals" still don't understand, or even believe, that THOUSANDS died right here in the US of A because of The Evil One. When respect and remembrance is accorded to *those* deaths, I may feel differently about the passing of the one who caused said deaths.

Kanary

[KG]

29. ray-gun a 'human being'? i think you give him too much credit.

his policies got thousand killed in central america - and elsewhere - and made the lives of many more miserable. his breaking of the ATC unions is a watershed event for the deterioration of workers right is this country.

reagun is guilty of massive crimes against humanity.

chultlu awaits this pig.

[randr]

31. Regardless of political differences

we all, as Americans, owe our respect to everyone that has served this nation through the proper elective process. Our allegiance is to the office and integrity of the system of governance that allows us the freedom to disagree.
He who is without fault may throw stones.

[salinen]

32. Deep dislike

for the man who launched this beast that we continue to feel today. Bush, Rummy, Powell, and Cheney are the legacy of death and destruction and all that is wrong with humanity. I'll not comment when he dies.

[mwar]

33. All I will do is be indifferent

To be indifferent to the death of another human being is in many ways more of an insult than an insult. But that is exactly what I will do. He deserves neither compassion nor insult.

[physioex]

34. I can agree with most of what you said, except..

You said, "I do believe he was fundamentally decent and did what he thought was right."

Can you show evidence the man was fundamentally decent?

Perhaps he thought what he was doing was right, but doesn't every other person on this planet?

[JanMichael]

35. "Fundamentally Decent"? See? that's the difference, many disagree.

His politics damaged just about everyone other that the Rich. You feel bad because he has a long term degenerative disease? How bout the oodles of people that don't get his kind of Healthcare, most due to his Legacy, and wallow in a filthy bed in some forgotten rat infested apartment?

This is what amazes me really. Here's a guy that fucked over the vast majority of people in America; Approved an Illegal Terrorist War against Nicaragua which included: Blown up bridges,power plants, schools, burned crops, attacked hospitals, the Contras raped, kidnapped peasants and civilians, massacred small rural communities, farms, co-ops, farms were abandoned because of the Contras/Reagan causing devastating shrtages; And in that managed to sell weapons to Iran against the will of Congress; Broke Unions; Inflated the Deficit to unimaginable heights; Spent 'our money on Guns, not Butter; Helped usher in the End of the New Deal; Honored SS soldiers in Germany; Etfreakincetera. and somehow even some Democrats still think the guy is "Decent"?!

What gives?

Reagan deserves an Oscar not respect, his acting like the nice old man while funding Rapists and Murderers in Central America is a first class performance.

Bravo.

[Union Thug]

41. Bravo to this post..

See, you nailed it. How can ANYONE respect this hateful monstrosity? Good riddance to this blob of vibrant protoplasm.

[physioex]

43. More or less, the same post as mine...

Only a minute apart....

[Union Thug]

44. yep.. true..

..and pulling from that post... I wonder whether Hitler or Stalin thought what they were doing was right, and whether that fact should change my happiness that they have also met their respective makers?

thx!

[physioex]

50. I can show..

Gandhi and Martin Luthur King were fundamentally decent. To show Regan was fundamentally decent would be a stretch...

[Armstead]

57. You can't just demonize those you disagree with

And a person can be decent and still do things you totally disagree with.

And lot of decent Americans will be saddened by it.

I have not said "shut up with all criticism of Reagan forever." But not respecting death and those who mourn is ghoulish and in bad taste.

I don't believe the policies should be whitewashed. But you also have to understand the motivations of people, and the ability to have empathy for differing opinions (within reason, of course) in order to understand the real nature of political struggles and deral with them effectively.

[Union Thug]

61. Why? Please explain this too me...

His motivation was to either kill or cripple those that he and his corporate cronies disagreed with. His motivation was evil and so was he. Again, good riddance. If that's ghoulish then...

Do the mash.. do the monster mash...
Do the mash... it was a graveyard smash...

[JanMichael]

64. I'm sensing that this "Respect the Mourners" is akin to "Support the Troop

s". (I couldn't fit the full, "respect the decent people who mourn", sorry)

It's a non-starter. What does it mean? What guidelines define what the act of "respect the decent people who mourn" is?

Does it mean that every widely circulated writer should only write positive articles about Raygun, in and around the time of his long over-due demise, in order to "respect the decent people who mourn" and not offend them?

Or is it only certain types of criticism?

[Armstead]

105. IMO it's simple Jan Michael

I'm not the Taste Police. I just wish DUers would use a bit of maturity and judgement about these things.

Hopefully, you recognize the difference between bad taste and legitimate expression.

There also is no requirement to instantly de-bunk all of the hyperbolie about him that will inevitably arise. There is plenty of time to criticize that when the dust has settled.

Frankly the best thing, IMO, is to just avoid the whole thing for a week or so afteer it happens. Impossible, I realize, but the opposite extreme does nopt have to be people spouting off a lot of mean-spirited vindictive crap.

I do believe that when DUers engage in that kind of mud-slinging it hurts the credibility of our side. I'd rather that we show a better nature than the Freepers do when the tables are turned.

[Kanary]

116. Could you pleeeeez also mention the thousands who died in this country cuz

of The Evil One?

Yes, he did evil things in Central America.

But, I'm really tired of the ones who died here being ignored, forgotten, and pushed aside.

People don't even BELIEVE he caused thousands of deaths right here in the US of A.

Kanary

[JanMichael]

119. I did, in the first paragraph, the Iran/Contra stuff is "sexier" though.

And indisputable.

[Kanary]

123. It was "alluded"

Guess we poor folx are gonna hafta get "sexier".

Too bad we just don't count.

Kanary

[Union Thug]

38. Dylan said it best...

"...Let me ask you one question
Is your money that good
Will it buy you forgiveness
Do you think that it could
I think you will find
When your death takes its toll
All the money you made
Will never buy back your soul

And I hope that you die
And your death'll come soon
I will follow your casket
In the pale afternoon
And I'll watch while you're lowered
Down to your deathbed
And I'll stand o'er your grave
'Til I'm sure that you're dead"

[SayitAintSo]

81. Well, wasn't that uplifting ....

LOL

[progdonkey]

40. I agree, to an extent

I definitely agree that we shouldn't express great glee when Reagan passes; that's the sort of bile reserved for the likes of Rush. After all, he was two-term president of the United States. No matter what you think of his policies, he deserves some respect.

This all comes with a big "BUT," though. While we should treat his eventual death with the respect befitting a POTUS, that doesn't mean we are restricted from discussing his policies and their effect on our country. If he was a poor president, he was a poor president. However, he hasn't been president for 16 years, so when he does pass, I hope we allow ourselves to be far enough removed from his presidency to not revel in vindictive expressions of glee.

In short, we really should avoid either extreme; neither reveling in his death, nor treating it with same type of ceaseless eulogizing that will surely be found on TV. He may have been an awful president on all fronts, but he was still the President of the United States.

[orthogonal]

42. Well put.

Well put. Thanks.

Regardless of our political leanings, we should all wish the best for Ronald Reagan and his family during this trying time for them.

[physioex]

45. Come on that is too generic...

Read the original carefully and read response 34 and 35. Look what is interjected between a call for compassion and a few sentences of opinion.

[SayitAintSo]

46. Good post - I agree - already having flashbacks of when Strom passed

There was an orgy of glee, hate and disrespect around here that I found personally offensive and over the top. I think we can speak truthfully about the legacy of a man we wouldn't vote for without being cruel and disrespectful to him and his family (and his devotees...)

[in_cog_ni_to]

47. Rush Limpballs, Hannity, O'Reilly, Ann Coulter

and their ILK will be watching for nasty, Democrat remarks. We really do need to keep it respectful because they will take a DU thread that says ANYTHING nasty about Reagan and milk it. We've seem do it before...they WILL be watching us.

[SayitAintSo]

51. True ... why don't we just excoriate THEM since they will be watching...

And don't' give them ANYthing to rant and snivel over ?

[Union Thug]

53. Bring it on! eom

[WilliamPitt]

55. Are they watching us right now?

If they are, tell them I said they can all go fuck themselves. Honestly, the size of the shit I give about what they think is so small, it would take a team of particle physicists to find it. The size of the shit I give about what they think is so small it only exists in theory, like a quark or a superstring.

[Union Thug]

58. hahahaha..excellent.. too funny! eom

[in_cog_ni_to]

83. Go for it then!

I was thinking about the DU thread about Iraq and the soldiers where Rush and Hannity had a hayday with. Hannity had it on his TV show. DU administrators had to delete the thread because it was so damaging and the poster was banned, I think. I just don't want ANYTHING "I" say to be used against Kerry. The assholes WILL do that...mark my word.

[Rabrrrrrr]

97. Truth should never stand down

under any threat. I think Ghandi and Jesus and MLK, Jr. and Bonnhoeffer and that Chinese guy in front of the tanks and many others have shown us that through time.

Withholding truth because someone might be offended is no different than being complicit with the sin that one would be criticizing with that truth.

If Rush and Hannity have a field day with people speaking the truth, then let the little babies have their way (and I'm talking about Reagan here, not about whatever post you are mentioning from the past).

If people are gleeful about Reagan's death, then so be it. I am not gleeful, for the most part I don't care since he's not been able to do anything for a long time so whether dead or alive he's been out of action. But sometimes people are truly gleeful, or relived, or happy, when others die: I've known people who sang with joy when an abusive parent finally died and got out of their lives and they knew freedom for the first time. A lot of people were truly and dramatically hurt by Reagan's policies, and by the group of evil clowns he spawned (or who spawned them), and if they're happy, they're happy. I might cringe, but I will not criticize their feelings. When Clinton dies, you can bet the rightwing - if they're still around - will be holding parties of celebration all over the nation. Not to say that glee at death is a quid pro quo for the glee they show when liberals die - that's just dumb - but if the glee is genuine, then there it is. It is what it is.

[in_cog_ni_to]

102. I like your painting.

You're very talented.

I just don't want John Kerry to have to pay for anything we say or do. This battle is hard enough without him having to deflect something we are responsible for. My thoughts are for HIM...not myself. Heaven knows I detest repubs and hate everything they represent.

[playahata1]

68. Who CARES what THEY think?

Why are you so concerned about what those poor excuses for humanity think about us? Damn what those fools think!

[physioex]

74. Like they aren't ready to make up facts for their conveninece....

Case of damned if you do damned if you dont...

[drdigi420]

49. According to your logic, we shouldnt celebrate when Osama

is killed either.

The argument can be made that Reagan has damaged our country far more than Osama.

I am personally throwing a party.

Fuck Reagan and everything he believed in.

[PeaceForever]

76. Why celebrate when any human being dies?

Yes, that includes our worst enemy. Personally, I'd rather have Osama be captured and put on trial. If found guilty, he should be locked up for life. I find the death penalty to be morally repugnant and on the same low ethical level as the murderers and terrorists themselves.

[Rabrrrrrr]

103. Because sometimes it's worth celebrating

There is no implicit right to be met with dour mournfulness and utter respect when one dies.

Some people deserve to die; some people will be happy when certain other peolple die. I have a post just above about it - if someone was an abusive SOB to you, for example, I see no moral or ethical problem with meeting that death with happiness and celebration.

If one has no respect for someone while they are living, why the need to all of a sudden respect them when they die? That's a sad, faulty widespread belief among people, and I'd like to see it taken away.

Personally, I give people permission to feel what they feel. Who am I to say their feelings are wrong?

Should they call up the dead's loved ones and berate the dead over the phone at great length? No, of course not. But not because it's disrespectful to the dead, but because it's rude to the living. Maybe one doesn't want to show glee right in front of those who are sad by the death, but nothing wrong with showing it anywhere else.

[PeaceForever]

115. Good points . . .

especially about people being able to feel whatever they wish.

I just don't think it's right to act on those feelings and celebrate when someone dies. But I recognize that it's a complex issue.

God, I'm such a liberal. :shrug:

[JI7]

114. i wouldn't compare Reagan to Osama

[arwalden]

54. Tell Me What To Say. I Do Not Know How To Respond To This.

I believe I can restrain myself from expressing blatant "glee" at his passing. That's just tacky... but I will find it impossible to NOT debunk popular myths, and misconceptions, and OUTRIGHT lies and historical omissions.

But I understand what you're saying.

-- Allen*

* a ghoulish, boorish, insensitive, disrespectful, immature vulture.

[Armstead]

67. Plenty of time for debunking

I have not said never say anything not nice about it. I just believe in letting it pass and having some class, and saving the debunking until it's appropriate....Or at least keepinbg the debunking reasonable.

It's like Emily Post 1012 would say that you don't immediately call the family of a person you dislike when he dies and tell them why you didn't like him. I just wish we'd show the same courtesy in public life that we'd apply in our own lives.

[sleepystudent]

95. but that's the thing...

I worry that many people on here actually are showing the same courtesy here that they exhibit in their lives off-line. Which is frightening. It seems like the bitterness which Reagan/Bush and now W. have engendered has infected everyone. Everyone on both sides is just rotten to the core and nasty right now. All this immature gloating has just proven that there is frighteningly little difference between "us" and "them" right now. They did it to someone we liked, so we will do it to them. Does not bode well for the future, no matter who's in charge.

[John_Shadows_1]

56. With all due respect, it's not like ...

... this guy (Reagan) wasn't a butcher, and a serial liar. He sent America spinning off in the wrong direction, and he's held up by the right as an icon, because they love for the country to move back in time.

I'm afraid we're going to have to give it to him with both barrels.

[playahata1]

59. If the Fascists can do it to Wellstone,

then I reserve the right to do it to Reagan. He did not show any compassion to others -- especially those who did not fit his vision of what being an American is -- so why should he be accorded the same.

Truth hurts, doesn't it?

[PeaceForever]

66. Two wrongs don't make a right. n/t

[PeaceForever]

60. I'm happy to see there are some on this board with principles.

If I were a moderator, I would delete any threads that gloat in the death of any human being, no matter who it is.

[playahata1]

73. Excuse me, but who are YOU to DICTATE what I

or anyone else in this forum can and cannot say? There is something called the First Amemdment, have you forgotten that?

<<<If I were a moderator, I would delete any threads that gloat in the death of any human being, no matter who it is.>>>

These are your exact words. Read them and weep.

By the way, a warm Jacksonville, Florida, WELCOME to DU.

[PeaceForever]

78. Yes, you're right about that.

Thanks for the welcome.

[physioex]

82. If I were a moderator, I wouldn't...EOM

[UTUSN]

63. Agree with EVERYTHING - Both "Restraint" AND "Free Speech"

We know the wingnuts will lash out against Dems, will seize on whatever to call us names.

For my part, I would be glad to have the equivalent of a moment of silence - a total blackout of his name and the event of his death. But it's not going to happen.

Those of us who will say harsh things are speaking our own truth about what he stood for and what his policies did to multitudes.

When Tweety goes into his orgasm over RAYGUN, are we not supposed to say so?

[sleepystudent]

69. Amen to that post...

and honestly, it just sounds...well, pathetic and immature, and makes us look pathetic and weak to train "our guns" on a dying 93 year old man. We're only doing it because it's easy and makes us feel good. It has no real impact at all, the only impact I can see it having is negative. How about training the guns on the regime in power which is perpetuating what Reagan started or "honoring" Reagan's legacy by well, getting off the computer and working to ensure that people like him and his cronies never get within miles of federal power again. That would work more than jumping on here and bashing Reagan to a bunch of people that you know hate him already.

[Michael Costello]

72. Being positive

I do not share your thoughts on his decency, and I doubt the survivors of El Mozote share them either.

Nonetheless, I suppose there are different ways to handle this. I'm sure Fox News will have a weeks-long tribute to him. On the other hand, people will be gloating over his death.

I suppose a third position would be a cool, rational observation that he was a rather nasty person who left the world off worse than he came into it, but he's dead now and there it is. An cool, rational and unemotional recognition that, in my opinion, his existence brought suffering to many people around the world to balance all of the lying tributes that will come out.

Reagan always appealed to the basest instincts - the fat, black single on welfare with seven kids by seven fathers living in the projects and driving a Cadillac. His joy in helping the California grape growers to try and crush the migrant farm workers attempt to have a better life. You're right that we should be above sinking to the level that he tried to bring people to. I do *NOT* think he was decent, and I think the tributes should be balanced by people remembering what a rotten man he was, but I think taking joy in his death is sinking to the level he dwelled in and appealed to people on through his life. I only hope his miserable legacy will disappear into history as time goes on.

[2Design]

75. I am sorry for any human being and their family who has to

go through that disease. It is devastating. And it has been a long time.

And the more I hear and listen to all of you, the more I realize I was young, under 35 and voted for him. I did not realize the damage he did.

I am reminded every day, while Bush is in office, of my mother's words at the time. Are you going to pay for our old age? I thought she was extreme and she just voted Democratic no matter who was running for office.

I now understand. I now vote democratic no matter who the person is.

I am grateful for knowing Reagan and realized I have learned I made a mistake. He taught me how easy it is to fooled by politicians and people in power and marketing. He helped me realize I must dig deeper and find out more about the party and the politics of the party.

I must also vote. Always. Democrats may not be great but they at least have a social conscience. They want to do more for the whole of society. They aren't out to rule your mind and body like the repubs.

A recovering repubican who is democratic now for the rest of my life.

[NicRic]

79. Keep it non politicial !

I believe if the repugs try to capitalize on the passing of Regan , we have a responsibility to bring it to the attension of others how inapropiate it is of the repugs to try and get politicial mileage out of someones death. Also point out what a sign of desperation it is on bushes part .I dont believe dumbya has any right to claim anything in common with Regan , when he was asked if he went to his own father for advise on Iraq ,he repsonded that he went to a higher power ! What an idiot, to have father with exprience involving Iraq ,and not even go to him for his opinion or advise ,shows what kind of complete idiot we are dealing with !

[Rowdyboy]

84. Remember the joy and glee of some here when Bob Hope died?

DU left me sick to my stomach that day, absolutely nauseas. I had no use for either man, but, I agree we should try to "avoid an orgy of bad taste" because it REALLY does lower us to their level. To cite Limbaugh's reaction to the death of Jackie Kennedy as behavior to be emulated just proves the point. I AM A BETTER MAN AND HAVE MORE CLASS THAN RUSH LIMBAUGH. At least, I know that much.

Unfortunately, the current death-watch "festivities" show me how impossible it is to expect people to act like adults. I'll just put all those threads on ignore because I prefer to pretend Democrats and progressives have more class than that.

Reagan's "death-week" will be a good time to avoid both television and DU. Great time to work on the house or in the garden.

Thanks, anyway, Armstead, for trying.

[playahata1]

86. Until the day Republicans, Fascists and other conservatives

start treating Democrats,liberals and other progressives with RESPECT, they will get none from me, no matter what.

I am 36 years old and I consider myself an ADULT, so save your breath.

[Rowdyboy]

90. Being an adult isn't a matter of age

It's maturity, respect and compassion. Define yourself however you like, and behave as you like. I merely said I'm better than that childish shit.

[Angelus]

107. Amen to that, playahata1.

[Carl Brennan]

85. The true legacy should be told about Reagan.

[ronnykmarshall]

88. Thank you !

For one, his son might possibly read these threads. He is a liberal and can't stand Bush.

Don't act like freepers. It's fine to dissagree with his politics, but his family has gone through a lot with his illness. Show some class above the politics.

[mopaul]

89. If you can't say anything nice about a person.......

then that son of a bitch must be ronald reagan

[readmylips]

91. LastPost: To live to be 93, sick and brainless....

is quite a punishment for any human being, especially for a criminal like Raygan. He did a lot of damage to the US and the world. As soon as he left office, his life sentence began and he himself was not able to hurt the world. Today, his family has changed. To listen to Ron Jr and Nancy be against many of the republican lawless acts, it's a win for the world.

Cheney is much, much, much worse criminal than Raygun. I wish cheney to live a long, long, long life of mental and physical suffering. I hope his wife, that bitch, is committed to sitting by his side for a lifetime. She can change his diapers and cleanup his voting for many years to come.

Amen.

[Killarney]

92. I agree

I think he was a horrible president and disagree with much of what he did. But I believe that we should show respect to the dying (and the dead) and understand that his family is going through a tough time now.

Many of us have fathers that we completely disagree with on politics and when they pass we will be saddened--I think of it in that way.

[Angelus]

93. I'll talk any way about him as I feel.

He was an evil man and he deserves to be shit on...just like he shit on his own country.

Screw that.

[freeforall]

94. Well stated Armstead

All of us deserve respect, especially at the time of passing.

[Selwynn]

98. Do that completely predictable post have any fucking meaning?

It's not that I don't agree with you but its so predictable. It was obvious we would have jackasses acting like jackass gloating over someone else's personal tragedy because of their politics. But it was equally predictable that we would have the saintly shotgun-conscience crowd come out and try to scold everyone into better behavior.

Does that ever work, or just it just pointlessly clog up the fucking boards? I think the latter.

Take my advice, people will never change - so just HIDE THREADS. That's what I'm going to do.

[blm]

99. Thankyou Armstead.

.

[ScreamingMeemie]

100. Agreed. The man is no longer in charge. He's just a man...dying.

Move along. There is far more to debate and get you danders up over. :hi:

[leftofthedial]

108. yes, and let's have a moment of respectful silence

for Hitler and Genghis Khan and Atilla the Hun and Pol Pot and Stalin and the rest of his peers too. What's a little genocide between fellow "human beings"?

Long before the bushgang hit the trifecta, Reagan hit the jackpot.

Tens of thousands of natives and other Latin Americans died as a result of Reagan policies.

[Selwynn]

110. Furthermore,

the problem with this, and the reason why so many still speak critically about an old man is because 90% of the public, and apparently half of DU thinks Regan was a great president, and wants to put his statue on every street corner.

Until the truth is driven home and accepted by the public, that Regan was one of the most damaging presidents to ever take office, that his administration was terrible for the country and a disgrace, people who accept the truth will continue to speak out about it.

What you should really ask for is that people stick to the ISSUES and not stick to personally berating "below the belt" tacky punches exploiting and mocking his physical condition. That's fine, maybe better people wouldn't do that. But I refuse to stop saying the truth about Regan, nor apologize for it, until his disaster of a presidency is DEMYTHOLOGIZED from its place of worship.

[Armstead]

112. Selwynn

I started the original post by saying I know it is an exercise in futility. But I felt it was still worth saying.

I know as well as anyone here the damage that has been done by the political framework he helped to create. And I am not saying that we should not keep speaking out about that.

I just believe that if we had a little class it would ultimately make whatever positions we have more credible then if DU is infested by grave dancing.

Also, there's nothing wrong with manners and taste.

[kentuck]

113. I agree with Armstead...

FWIW....

[Moderator]

117. Thank you!

:thumbsup:

[Marymarg]

118. I agree, totally,

He may have been the worst President (or not) but that is history. Now, he is just an old man, dying from a horrible, nightmarish disease.

It only shows extremely poor taste and reflects badly on one's raising to speak so ill of him at this point.

What's wrong with taking the high road?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

120. Some here seem to think only hatred from the right is to be deplored

thanks for the post. I don't like the man or what he represented to the country, so why would I want to become it?

[Tight_rope]

121. "What he thought was right"... is that the same as Bush saying...

"It's God's Will"

:wtf: Why should we view "Death" any more different then "Life".

It's all part of living.

The second you are born is the same second you start dying.

If you were a human being that treated others with respect and compassion, then I'm sure those individuals will show compassion and respect to you in your last days of life.

But for those you "FUCKED OVER", you should not expect the same.

"CAN'T WAIT TILL IT'S DUYBA'S TURN. I CAN'T WAIT TO PISS ON HIS GRAVE." :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

[Old and In the Way]

122. History will judge Ronald Reagan

My mother always said, if you can't say anything good about somebody, don't say anything at all. Good advice. OTOH, if the RW starts to beatify him, I'll be forced to inject some reality into the discussion.

[stavka]

124. He's been "Dead" For more than a decade....

Why celebrate his loved one's misery?