Absence of empathy is the greatest evil - bigger than left or right.

[Selwynn]

Absence of empathy and a decency of spirit is the greatest evil, far greater that right or left - and as I have been reminded this weekend, that particular evil knows no party lines.

Too many people today choose the quick and easy way and mistake hatred and rage for courage and resistance to tyranny. Too many people believe that its OK to spew venom and cynicism and revel in the suffering of others because "we are right." But I don't believe it is possible to be "right" and embrace those attitudes. The "left" isn't correct by default. "It" is only correct insofar as it practices the principles it preaches, not just when its difficult, but when its hard.

When we don't we're no better than our opponents, and far, far, far more disappointing, because I expect better from my friends and colleagues, and all to often I see instead all the things that I reject in my opponents.

I understand and expect uncivil and cynical responses, and that's fine.

[LittleApple81]

1. I think that for me it is better to have TOTAL SILENCE ABOUT

REAGAN... hate is too close to love. Indiference and not even admitting his death happened would be more effective, from my point of view.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

8. Yep

on another board I frequent, competely unrelated to this one and not necessarily political in origin, they are having all these RIP posts about Reagan and I haven't said a darn word. And I won't. He died. He was 93. End of story.

[Walt Starr]

2. Hatred and rage is all the evil fucks understand

Demonstrate civility and decorum, they perceive it as a weakness and POUNCE.

Fuck that shit.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Walt Starr]

10. Who the fuck pounced?

I merely stated the reality of the situation.

[DarkPhenyx]

16. You stated the reality...

...of exactly what Selwynn was talking about. It is horribly unfortunate that at such a simple junsture so many our our people are falling to the dark side.

[Walt Starr]

22. May the farce be with you

:eyes:

:wtf:

:thumbsdown:

:headbang:

Dark side my hairy ass.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Walt Starr]

47. Don't pull your jedi mind tricks with me

they don't work, young jedi.

[DarkPhenyx]

57. ah I see.

Yer stuck in geek mode.

Choose a philosophical framework adn I'll explain the concept to you. You didn't seem to like American Indian. Should we try Ancient Greek?

[Walt Starr]

58. I don't take kindly to be preached to

And it'll just end up pissing you off.

Fuck that shit.

[DarkPhenyx]

62. Nobody likes being told they are wrong.

I can sympathize with that. Goddess know I hate it. However being wrong gives us a chance to learn something. If we're lucky we get to learn something about ourselves. Eventually, when you are calmer, I have a feeling it'll hit you. If it dosen't it really is of no consequence to me. All I can do is try to show you the error of your ways. It's your job to learn.

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JVS]

67. Well said!

Can't we all just be happy about the good news?

[Liberal Veteran]

69. I suppose it's well said if Rosanne Connor is considered a great orator...

....

[JVS]

71. Are you badmouthing Rosanne now?

[Liberal Veteran]

72. I don't think anyone would claim she was the soul of genteel civility.

Would you?

[JVS]

77. What is with the sudden passion for genteel civility?

This is the General discussion forum goddamnit! If you want genteel civility go to...I don't even know, the Meeting room or something. Or you can try www.oprahchatroom.com

[Liberal Veteran]

82. Just doing my part to hopefully make the world a more civil place.

The way I see it is that nothing is ever going to change if I contribute to the nastiness that has attached itself to public discourse like a cancer.

[JVS]

88. What is wrong with people being forthright rather than civil?

[Liberal Veteran]

91. Some would say Fred Phelps is "forthright"....

....but I think he's just a low class excuse for a human being when he pickets the funerals of gays.

[JVS]

95. "low class excuse for a human being" how uncivil of you.

and how proper of you as well!

Being civil isn't always the right thing to do.

[Liberal Veteran]

107. Time and place for everything, my friend.

Timing is an important factor in civility and decorum.

[DarkPhenyx]

73. Most unfortunate.

Particularly considering that I'm not pushing any religion. Oh well. As I said, prehaps you will learn, prehaps you won't. It will be interesting to see.

[Walt Starr]

76. Philosphy,... religion

One man's philosophy or religion is another man's pile of stinking steaming bullshit.

Stuff that into your pipe and maybe you'll learn something about the reality of this world.

[DarkPhenyx]

80. Not all philosophy is religion.

Tisk, tisk, tisk. We do have more to teach you than just the error of your ways. Apparently you assume that any one philosphy has all the answers, or that any is completely wrong. My, my, my. So little time to educate the grasshopper. However we must try.

[Walt Starr]

84. Do you know the difference between philiosphers and bums?

Philosphers get published.

Comtemplate that, weedhopper.

[DarkPhenyx]

92. cute quote.

didn't really say anything but it's a cute quote though.

[Walt Starr]

96. You've answered which side of that fence you're on

one day, you may understand, weedhopper.

[DarkPhenyx]

97. No, I don't beleive you do know which side I'm on.

But don't worry. Like I said, in a day or so you'll figure it out.

[Walt Starr]

100. So are you saying your philisophical crap has been published?

Please, tell me the title so I can go right out and buy it.

[Walt Starr]

102. Oops, too late

the Season Finale of Sopranos is on, no time to followup.

[salin]

23. some posts.. have of some individuals have been pouncing

on others calling for civility for more than 24 hours now.. "LOSER" (pounce)... "Freeper" (pounce).. and that was just on one thread.

So why do I need to wait for the other side to pounce, when I can get pounced on here so quickly. In which case if I am going to be pounced on here by some posters.. then why should I even care about being pounced on by others since it is inevitable.. hey.. that is rather liberating.

Be civil be civil be civil!!! *can say it all I want since I will get pounced on both here and elsewhere*

[Walt Starr]

33. Calling for civility over the death of the evil fuck

was pretty fucked up, IMO.

[salin]

37. pounce

gee, now I am fucked up.

You know one can write scathing criticisms that are civil. Just takes a little verbal panache. Oh, but that would be fucked up, oh, but I have already been told I am fucked up so what the heck...

[Walt Starr]

42. Not a pounce

You stated an opinion and I countered with an opinion of my own.

Oh, I get it, any time anybody disagrees with you, it's a pounce. Got it. I'll try to remember that for future reference.

[salin]

48. not as direct of a hit

as the one directed to another poster as a LOSER... among other derogatives.

It is all tone... and intent. You claimed calls for civility was fucked up in response to my call for civility ergo... I am fucked up because I called for civility. Its called logic, not disagreement. All a matter of style - but when we go for smarmy one liners as a superior way of "winning debates"... guess there isn't much left for real discourse.

Charming.

[Walt Starr]

52. Wrong again

I stated an opinion, just like you and just like other posters as is my right.

Don;t like what my opinions are, there's an ignore feature on DU.

I refuse to lie down and be a lacky any longer. Fuck the evil fucks. I will piss on the grave of Reagan daily.

[salin]

63. charming

and oh so very effective... the strategy is to urninate the other side to death? Always see lots of voters come to the polls for such motivation. Venting anger, while understandable, gets us closer to getting rid of Bush... how? Seems like self-serving nonstrategic behavior. But that is just my opinion.

[Walt Starr]

70. This is a god damned message board on the internet

It means fuck all in the political landscape. It has the effect of a fucking gnat on Bush's shoulder.

I am venting. I have the right. You don;t like it, push the ignore button.

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Walt Starr]

78. But it's bringing out the ass in you

and you're behavior is far more telling. You get up on your soap box and start preaching. All I do is say whatever the fuck I please about an evil fuck whose not worth the dog shit I wiped off my shoes this morning.

[salin]

83. no irony in that post title.

[Walt Starr]

86. Nope, none at all

:evilgrin:

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[salin]

75. never have before

but perhaps I should seriously think about the invitation.

[Walt Starr]

81. I didn't invent the thing

but somebody did and they musta had a good reason.

[Just Me]

Does it matter to you what kind of climate your "venting" is creating?

Have you any concern about how your words are affecting others?

Is your anger perpetual? Will going out and pissing on Reagan's grave provide you any closure? Is your "venting" all over this board helping you to heal?

What is going on with you? Can you answer that question without projecting your anger at reagan on me?

[Liberal Veteran]

49. Look, Walt, I have as much reason as anyone to dislike him...

Maybe if he had taken action instead of ignoring the AIDS crisis in the beginning because it was only affecting people like me, I might not have been infected with HIV in 1985 and I would have to pop a handful of pills of day just to stay alive.

But I haven't lost sight of the fact that I don't want to be the same kind of people as them.

There is a time and place and a way to be critical of Reagan.

I don't think the time is right now.

[Walt Starr]

50. And I do

Honest disagreement.

Fuck the evil fuck.

I'll piss on his grave first chance I get.

[Liberal Veteran]

54. And you'll have to excuse me, but I think less of you as a person...

...for your stance.

So what have you gained in it? An ally thinks less of you, and you enemies think no better of you, and nothing else has changed.

It's seem like hollow gold to me.

Your mileage may vary.

[Walt Starr]

55. What have I gained?

A nice warm feeling all over, that's what I've gained. I feel better for fucking pissing on the old evil fucks grave.

If you think I'm less of a person, then I reciprocate the feeling.

[sangh0]

112. It's all about Walt

and how it makes him feel. Screw anyone else.

Yeah, I wanna join that parade

[Liberal Veteran]

5. The right wing says violence is all the Arabs understand....

...and they use that as a rationale to perpetrate abuses.

Do we really want to fall into their mindset?

[Walt Starr]

9. The Dems have tried civility

look at where that bullshit got us over the past two decades.

[Liberal Veteran]

13. That's what "they" say too about Arabs....

It's a self-perpetuating prophecy.

[Walt Starr]

27. Apples to oranges

I need to be civil to Republicans like a fucking rabbit needs to be civil to a hawk.

[ibegurpard]

30. Was someone advocating the torture of Reagan?

I must have missed something.
:shrug:

[JVS]

32. Now that you mention it, good idea!

Too late though :-)

[ibegurpard]

36. No, it's NOT a good idea.

And I WOULD draw the line at that sort of rhetoric. Saying bad things about a man whose policies were incredibly destructive not only to this country but worldwide, however, is not out of line in my opinion. He lived out the remainder of his life in comfort with the best care that money could buy. He got FAR more than he deserved.

[JVS]

45. Aw c'mon

[salin]

79. You know... there are civil ways of saying just that

criticizing him, pointing out the hypocracy, all of that can be done in civil tones. Really not an either/or but a matter of tone and how.

[Liberal Veteran]

41. Hoping he burns in hell sorta fits that doesn't it?

I just don't have in me to be that way.

[salin]

43. nah but there was some extolling of the virtues of hate and hatred

not channeling outrage, nor anger... just vitriolic hate as a virtue baby...

what a charming aspiration...

[Selwynn]

25. On the contrary, it is the only thing that has ever truly worked...

to achieve lasting change, and avoid the sowing the seeds of its own demise.

[salin]

40. No... they tried over compromising and being weak on stands

in the name of compromise. That has nothing to do with civility. Has to do with really sucky political strategy.

[sleepystudent]

44. News flash...

You're on DU. The evil fucks aren't listening to you here and even if they were, they wouldn't care what you have to say. You're just spewing hatred and rage at someone's back. It's a sign of weakness, powerlessness, and cowardice.

Yeah I loathe Reagan too, but this gets us nowhere. It's like an engineered distraction from the tasks at hand and a trap to make us look just as callous and unfeeling as them and you,along with too many other people, have fallen for it hook,line and sinker.

[salin]

65. that sums up

what I am trying to say quite well. thanks.

[salin]

3. The sad and tragic

long death march of empathy. One of the greatest losses within our society/civilization. Which raises the question... can there be civilized society in the absense of empathy?

[Selwynn]

11. I answer no.

I don't see how. Historically, I see no precedent to make me believe that good can come from the death of empathy and a loss of desire to elevate the things we believe in to a higher standard of decency and statemanship.

For me, its not that I am perfectly empathetic. It's not that I prefecty refelect any virtue. It's just that I want to - it is my priority, because I literally believe it is impossible to be right, do right, or stand for what's right without having that primary focus.

[DarkPhenyx]

35. Agreed. The answer is no.

Empathy is one of the few things that actually allow us to live together and not kill eachother.

[LittleApple81]

12. Empathy, in this case, with what precisely? I don't usually like to

say hateful things, but I cannot say anything good about Reagan or empathise with anybody in this situation.
But I have seen through my life that the best thing to do IS TO IGNORE THE OTHER SIDE AND DO WHATEVER YOU WANT. You spend too much energy hating. You can use this more constructively. In this case, planning for actions to help America avoid four more years of repug awfulness.

[salin]

I would agree that sometimes ignoring is very powerful

sometimes empathy also isn't feeling sorry for the other... but being able to relate enough to recognize that certain incendiary actions only breed other incendiary actions (the empathy lets us recognize/be aware of the incendiary counter reaction)... and pulls down to a cycle of hate.. that can move to a cycle of HATRED (far beyond anger and outrage.. and only a hair away from violence bred from lack of empathy with the other due to dehumanization needed to enable that level of hatred.) We lose more than just four years in that scenario. We feed into shaping a more and more inhospitable and hellish society.

[LittleApple81]

26. I agree. Some people on this board cannot deal with ignoring and

keeping silence... their resentment against what have been bad actions of the republicans and their administrations (not that democrats are perfect, mind you) does not let them see that all this energy could be channelled to more constructive endeavors.
In that sense I could say that we would demonstrate EMPATHY constructively: we would know how offensive it would be for them to get absolute silence for this side on the subject, and to see us working to avoid the recurrence of something as bad as a Reagan or Bush presidency ever again.

[Just Me]

29. I, too, believe that, sometimes, no reaction is the best action.

Besides, the hatred and anger and so forth,...are,...draining and,...dark,...at least, for me.

[salin]

93. Not to mention somehow draining

creative thought and strategic thinking... way to easy to sit around sayng "Fuck" this and tht "fuck" on and on and on - but accomplishes little. Sadly seems to be an extension of a dumbing down of our society. Where vulgar brute power (ala DeLay) are assumed to be the only effective tools. DeLay will fall - but it wont be to brute vulgar power (and probably in part will be due to his arrogance and reliance on those tools) it will be due to being out manuevered, foiled and exposed. Maybe starting to happen as we speak with that investigation in texas. Folks seem to be losing sight of the short and long term task at hand.

[Just Me]

103. It delivers no closure, no healing, no inspiration, no power,...

,...nothing. There are so many ways to channel emotion. The vitriol is one way which has little to no reward and generally incites further emoting.

[Forkboy]

106. Maybe for you

Maybe not for others.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

6. I think APATHY is the greatest evil, hands down. eom

[Arugula Latte]

7. So you agree Reagan was evil?

AIDs killed thousands and that was just jim dandy with ol' Ronnie.

Innocent Central American peasants were mowed down because of his policies. That was just fine with the Gipper.

People struggling to scrape together a meal? "Welfare queens."

Mental health patients and veterans dumped on the streets? A-Okay with Ron.

Yes, Reagan was evil.

[DarkPhenyx]

14. Amen!

Thanks Selwynn. Nicely said.

[dogman]

15. Maybe you want to share feelings or understand the motives of the right.

Not me.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

17. Know your enemy

never hurts. No such a thing as too much knowledge.

[dogman]

19. I know my enemy

and I know there is now one less.

[Selwynn]

28. I know my "enemy" too

both within and without

[dogman]

34. Then deal with it in the way

that works best for you.

[Selwynn]

87. I am.

[salin]

24. ah.. another civility = rightwing sympathizer

inference. Implication... there is no room for civility on the left... and where it occurs must be somehow subversive?

Know it isn't what you said... just an extension of the logic.

[dogman]

31. civility is fine if that's how you feel

others are not feeling civil toward this monster.

[salin]

98. don't you think that finding the words

to civilly express why you view him as a monster... might, actually work to open some minds who have never been exposed to anything but the myth? While the venting does nothing.

[dogman]

113. I have

if you check my posts. On the other hand I feel that others have every right to express their feelings in their own way. We will be bombarded in the mainstream media with unending BS about RR. Any negativity is simply a fruit from the tree whose roots are firmly set in his policies and everything every one here despises about the present administration are also the poison fruit on that tree. My celebration is not in his death but in the release of my own hatred now that he no longer inhabits my world. I have fellow veterans who have died worse deaths due to this monster. I have a lifelong friend who is dead from AIDS and I feel this monster also contributed to his tortured end. I have a Mother and Mother-in-law who suffer from the same disease as RR and realize that his empowerment of the religious fanatics has contributed to the fact that they are denied possible relief. This monster deserves no respect from me and will get none.

[mandyky]

18. I wonder how much of this is due to "our" dislike of *

I've stayed out of most of these Reagan threads, because I was raised not to speak ill of the dead. But beyond that, I'm glad Nancy and the Reagan family have been released from this disease (Alzheimers). Former President Reagan has been "technically dead" for years due to this illness, and whatever hard feelings I had for him as our national leader, have been replaced by pity for a fellow human being who was sentenced to a long term death sentence, along with his family. Probably he was oblivious to his illness years ago, but his poor wife watched her husband slip away as time passed. While I am not interested in all the media hoopla, I am trying to respectfully note this passing.

[dogman]

21. And I'm watching it now

with my Mother and Mother-in-law and I know there lives could be better if it weren't for what this person has done.

[diamond14]

20. reaguns KILLED hundreds of thousands of human beings...somebody

ought to say something about it.....


bush* has followed in reagun's footsteps...KILLING KILLING...somebody ought to say something about it because so many made a SAINT out of reaguns, bush* is able to murder many many more than anyone ever thought possible...and there is NO outrage....

must we all be silent until they come to KILL us?

OPEN reaguns presidential records, so we can HONOR reaguns service to OUR country....it puts the FEAR OF GOD in those criminal reTHUGlicans to even mention opening those records...for their CRIMES will be seen out in the open....

[noiretextatique]

38. he was a 93 year old man who died...hardly a shocker

very few are reveling in his suffering, though a few more have expressed joy about his passing. i just wish all these pleas for decorum and respect coincided with my reparations thread a few months ago. "we" are no better than our opponents on any number of issues.

[qwertyMike]

46. Absence of empathy is the greatest evil

I agree with you. Reagan had NO empathy.
Evil man

[Selwynn]

90. One man's wrong don't make another wrong right.

[gulliver]

51. Partly right. But you make a big error, IMO.

Here's the error:

"When we don't we're no better than our opponents..."

You have to go by batting average. Democrats and progressives have an empathy batting average of .800. Republicans have a batting average of .100. Indeed, Republicans practice empathy only among their own tribe.

There is no moral equivalence. Every group has fringes. For the Republicans, a dimwitted (ultimately) lack of empathy is the norm. For progressives, a dimwitted lack of empathy is the exception.

We are all at the mercy of technical/historical trends and numbers. There is nothing to be gained by ignoring them. Progressives are just plainly much better people. Republicans can only consider themselves good by narrowing the scope of their good intentions to people like themselves. That's blind, and it will be the death of our country if we can't get so-called conservatives to let go of their fears and think for real.

[Selwynn]

99. Exception vs. norm

I agree that progressives are on the whole usually better people, plain and simple. But why? The answer is because of the principles they value. There are certain seasons in which there seem to be far more people actively and joyfully betraying those values in places where you would hope it would be otherwise.

As for the average idea, I go back and forth on this. Some years I agree with you, that progressives have a better average, where asshollery and dickishness are the exception rather than the rule - contrasted to the conservatives where rational civility and compassionate justice are the exception to the rule.

At other times, I believe that no side is better, that there is an equal amount of emotional fanatic extremists on either side, that don't have a rational bone in their body but instead use political ideologies as an excuse to release base childish aggression and combativeness like a spoiled brat who never grew up.

All I know for sure is that there are people and perspectives on both sides of the isle that I'm ashamed of. Whether or not "our" batting average is significantly better that the other guys is another matter.

[Djinn]

53. I have plenty of empathy

for his VICTIMS not him. He got to live in luxury for most of his life, he lived to be 93 - even if one subtracts the years he spent a virtual vegetable he had as we say in Australia, "a good innings".

Unlike many thousansd of children in South America who didn't make it to adulthood.

I'll save my empathy for those more deserving.

[Nlighten1]

56. How right you are...

I can think of many examples but my favorite is the I/P conflict.

[meow mix]

59. its empathy for reagans dead victims which fuels hatred towards him

seems natural to me.

now if only i can figure out a way to go scratchy-scratchy on his grave.

[Kickin_Donkey]

60. I'll save my empathy for the victims of Reagan's ...

policies.

Reagan had no empathy, and therefore deserves none.

[indigobusiness]

Thoughts shape one's soul...

...it's your choice.


http://sludgereport.blogspot.com/

[Kickin_Donkey]

61. I'll save my empathy for the victims of Reagan's ...

policies.

Reagan had no empathy, and therefore deserves none.

[donhakman]

68. I am an empath

both psychologicaly and physicaly and I don't agree with the premise that the absence of empathy is evil. It may be patholgical but it is not evil. It would be like being amoral than immoral.

[noiretextatique]

111. agreed

let the moral high ground folks handle him.

[bhunt70]

66. beautiful post...Thanks.

[jpgray]

89. Empathy is our greatest trait as a species

Without it we are worthless animals. Thanks for the post--I completely agree. Criticizing this man's presidency is appropriate and necessary at this time--dancing on his grave is not, though those who are doing the latter are by far in the minority. Too many in the former are getting lectured along with them.

[MarkTwain]

94. Or, to put it more accurately....

... yes Mr. Rove, may I have another?

Christ, just when are the "moonbeam" and "lava lamp" progressives going to wake up and realize that they have been dealing with bullies who have been not only taking their lunch money for upwards of thirty years but the bullies have been getting these lilac liberals to say "thank you very much, sir" as they put the coins into the pockets of those bullies.

I hope that Reagan bastard has been rotting in hell the last twenty-four hours and I make no apologies for having that feeling. It's just and it is more than warranted. And, it's a healthy and realistic response to the overt evil that this man, Reagan, introduced some twenty years ago and under which we now suffer in its most extreme and vile form.

Damn. The absurd and naive hand-wringing along with the overt and manipulative attempts at playing "board nanny" have been just plain disgusting this weekend. Grow a set, all of you.

[Selwynn]

101. Pretty sure Mark Twain would see it differently...

..in fact, gosh... he said so. :)

[flaminbats]

104. Those who have the most empathy often have silver tongues.

All humans feel empathy and cynicism because of the suffering of others, but only those who are honest can express them both. In the imperfect world we live in..to say that an absence of empathy is the greatest evil is like saying dishonesty is the greatest good. Empathy comes with anger. We all know people we both love and hate, but we only feel this way because we are human and they are human.

There is some good to be found in evil, and some evil to be found in good. But what would one be without the other? Suffering is terrible for everyone, but unfortunately periods of suffering are what usually lead to periods of progress. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

[Selwynn]

108. Form without substance.

That sounds pretty I guess, like something I would expect to see on a card - pretty and basically meaningless.

It is an assumption to say "we all know people we love and hate." I don't feel that kind of polarized emotion about anyone; in fact I'm not sure that hate would be an appropriate word to use for my feelings toward anything. If course, based on your opening sentence, you will no doubt just assume I'm "not being honest." Hate is a willful choice to surrender the better parts of ourselves to the more guttural and primitive parts of ourselves.

I will go with you as far as to say that the capacity for all spectrums of emotion and action are in the hearts and minds of every person. But a statement like "there is evil in good and good in evil" will never be much more to me than a cop-out on the applied level of life. At the philosophical normative or "meta" level, that is a different story.

While you are correct that often suffering is can lead to progress, you go to far in presuming that suffering is the *cause* of progress. The cause of progress is hope in the face of suffering, courage in the face of suffering, resistance in the face of suffering, and determination in the face of suffering. It's not suffering that's good, but how we respond to it that is good.

The same is true with our "enemies" or bad circumstances or problems or obstacles we face. It is not our enemies that make us good by default, or our problems that create good solutions - it is how we treat our enemies, how we maintain hope and courage in the face of our obstacles, how we come together in humanity to overcome our problems that makes is good.

The statement: "to say that absence of empathy is the greatest evil is like saying dishonesty is the greatest good" is non-sensical. Explain to me exactly how those things are equivalent or even comparable. Empathy does not "come" with anger per se. The two are apples and oranges. Empathy may or may not come with a certain kind of "righteous" indignation - but rage, wrath, or unholy hatred are polar opposites of empathy and obscure any attempt and more positive and productive feelings or action.

We are all human, meaning we are not perfect. But saying we are not perfectly good is different than melding everything into a synthetic moral relativism that can be soundly critiqued six ways from Sunday (so can moral absolutism; reality is somewhere in the middle with contextual relativity in relationship to normative principles.)

[Fovea]

105. I am too full of emotion to trust myself to judge Reagan

fairly, but I will say this--

His administration presided over brutally stupid policies at home
and around the world. Indeed, the blowback that was 911 has at its roots the Reagan policy of using Islamists against the Soviet backed state in Afghanistan, a secular, socialist state.

His friends fought a holy war against my faith. Anyone here remember the Helms amendment?

His friends started the financial gamesmanship that culminated in the current jobless recovery and the radical theft of the wealth of America by the uber rich. Marketry and creative accounting in the S&L industry came about in an atmosphere of deregulation. From there they went into Energy gaming, no bid cost plus govt contracts, and from here, who knows?

His administration was happy to unfund science, and use bad science for its purposes. Remember James Watt? In a moralism tragically blind to hypocrisy, Reagan himself set his ire against the 'gay plague' very like that of an angry father of a gay son. I was working in an ER at the time, and I say that I was convinced that AIDS was clearly God's revenge on hemophiliacs and transfusion patients in the 80's.

Reagan himself presided triumphantly over the dissolution of PATCO, critically wounding the labor movement in ways that persist to this very day. A stronger labor would have not allowed a jobless recovery to occur. Labor needs to get off the damn canvas and fight.

Reagan started the death of bipartisanship with the phrase, "There they go again." That was demeaning and unworthy since it was often his way of dismissing that he had been shown wrong.
When Gingrich, DeLay, et al, resort liberal baiting, it is the same thing, only the dial being twisted to the right. I submit that a civil war started with that sentence. We just haven't finished fighting it enough to realize where we started.

It was the penitent Lee Attwater who cried out the mea culpa, but Karl Rove apparently does not feel as constrained by morality or mortality. Perhaps when the reaper grabs his coattails, he may feel differently.

But I mark the passing of Reagan as the symbolic herald of the ending of the neoconservative movement. I do not see it as the passing of a man. Reagan fluttered out over weeks and months like a frail bit of cloth in the wind. This is not significant as a moment of death, it is more like a comet in the sky. It is as though he took the light of neoconservatism, a movement that used his decency and warmth in cynical ways, with him.

Greed reached a brief apotheosis in 2000 only to fall from its own baser nature. Reagan's October Surprise is our Black Box voting, and voter scrubbing. What is Iraq, but Panama and Grenada writ horribly large?

Same ideology, greater sense of entitlement. It is at the point where neoconservatism must now either shed the pretense of legality, or be brought to heel by it.

To their dismay, the rule of law seems
to be reasserting itself in a strength and breadth they did not anticipate.

The public is not as frightened as the administration needs them to be, but so many are now so suspicious, that the danger of insurrection in discovery is great, particularly after the failure to install WMD's into Iraq.

Slightly off topic, I suspect Chalabi and the Iranians now have the 'to be planted' weapons, and are going to present them to the UN as a massive 'up yours' to Bush. Probably in October.

[JI7]

109. "mistake hatred and rage for courage and resistance to tyranny"

that says it all. i agree.

[Renew Deal]

110. Nice job Selwynn

You are always rational. Thanks