Did We the People win the Cold War (through our culture) or did Raygun?

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

Or any other administration?

[Kilroy003]

1. the CIA and the shitty Soviet economy did it

The OPEC cartel helped out too.

[cheezus]

2. We made them spend into bankruptcy

and barely avoided it ourselves.

[Zynx]

6. Soft Power had something to do with it.

When you have teenagers on the streets of Moscow wearing American Air Force ensignia on their jackets and the kids of KGB, Red Army and Communist Party brass wearing black market American Levis, you've got issues if your country is supposed to be ready to fight the Americans.

The Soviet economy just couldn't give the Soviet people what they wanted. This creates resentment and causes people to decide that the Party is full of BS and the Security Organs are a bunch of corrupt pigs (which they were-the KGB stole billions and socked it in Europe). When Gorbachev comes along and starts liberalizing something that's falling apart, the lid blows off and bye-bye USSR.

[Warpy]

12. They were ready to fall before Ronnie mortgaged our

grandchildren. The CIA had predicted their collapse in the late 1970s, due to a stagnant economy and popular dissent with increasing corruption at all levels.

The truth is that they just rotted from within and crumbled, the same thing that will happen to us if we don't get rid of the GOP, Reaganomics, the fouled up tax code, and corporate dictation of goverment policies.

[John BigBootay]

36. If everyone knew that the USSR was set to collapse--

why didn't Carter know it / believe it / say it or in some way work toward that end?

I like Carter as much as the next guy, but I have to ask, why was he working toward nuclear freezes, detent, less testing as if he believed the USSR was going to be around for awhile?

If I knew (or firmly believed) that the USSR was on the ropes, I'd be right there with some body blows and upper cuts to bring them all the way down onto the canvas.

[Warpy]

39. The CIA had said it

and I'm sure Carter knew it. What could he have done that he didn't do? How did mortgaging us for generations to come do anything, since the collapse was predicted and was inevitable? Why not just sit back, keep your own economic house in order, and wait for it to occur?

If anything, Reagan delayed the collapse by rallying the Soviets around their bad system for a few extra years by making them afraid he was going to start a war. This was a real concern in the early 80s, and Reagan's own staff told him to cool off the rhetoric.

[John BigBootay]

41. "I'm sure Carter knew it. " example?

"If anything, Reagan delayed the collapse..."

You sure make a lot of broad statements without any historical back up.

[Leprechan29]

46. Thing was, no one did know it was coming...

I myself am not a fan (nor a detractor) of Carter's presidency, but Carter would have had to pursue the nuclear freezes, dentente (which had been a policy for a decade or so already), et al., or risk a destabilized Russia attacking out of desperation - Or, just as bad a scenario, lots of small nations getting former Soviet nukes.

That said, no one at the time could have predicted the fall of the USSR, especially someone wrapped up in US politics where the Soviets were seen as a permanent threat. You do have a good point though - if someone realized that the end of the USSR was coming, it should be hastened along - the one problem is that it would have been nearly impossible to realize that it was indeed coming in the next decade or so

[el_gato]

3. the cold war was a scam for the most part

[Kilroy003]

thats a pretty big scam

to encompass 4 decades and however many adminstrations.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

11. Exactly!

Well said!!!

[el_gato]

17. Yeah, it was a pretty big scam

If you would care to inform yourself you can read up on it here:

The Cold War as Ideological Construct
http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/dd/dd-c01-s01.html

versus

The Cold War as a Historical Process
http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/dd/dd-c01-s05.html


snip:
The great event of the current era is commonly taken to be the end of the Cold War, and the great question before us therefore is: What comes next? To answer this question, we have to begin by clarifying what the Cold War has been. There are two ways to approach this prior question. One is simply to accept the conventional interpretation; the second is to look at the historical facts. As is often the case, the two approaches yield rather different answers.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

23. el-gato, as your avatar suggests you fly in the face of conventional

thought!

Please accept my kudos!

[el_gato]

24. Thanks CST

:)

[Leprechan29]

9. What do you mean by

scam? I would say that at certain points, the Cold War was very real and very hostile

[el_gato]

19. Read my post number 17

The cold war as it has been sold to the general populace
versus the actual facts behind it are very different.

[Kilroy003]

4. If 'culture' includes technology

then I would say yes, it was us. Well, not me personally...

[Leprechan29]

5. It was...(drum roll)

A combination of a stagnant Soviet economy - which had been slowing since about the 60's - and Gorbachev's reforms which loosened Moscow's hold on the Eastern Bloc. The loosening came at a time where independence movements and nationalistic feelings were boiling to the surface and so it was only a matter of time before the USSR would collapse. Gorbachev's role was one where he merely weakened the grip on the Bloc and therefore allowed the independence movements to take peaceful route (with a few exceptions - mainly Romania, I think) as opposed to violent one.

[WMliberal]

22. you're exactly right. and reply #7 as well

However, people on this continent had spent so many years defining "American" as anti-communist, they assumed that a fall of their enemy was solely of American doing. Americans are by and large ignorant of the anti-communist efforts within Europe that actually brought the end of communism.

[Leprechan29]

45. That's become apparent

especially with the connection of communist ideas to anti-americanism; An example - when is the last time that the American Communist Party was refered to as just another political party, but with some rather extreme ideas?

Your point is right on target

[DNA]

7. Nobody

on this continent won the Cold War. The Soviet Union and its empire were going to fall from the weight of their own stupidity. The brave people of the Soviet satellite states can be given a good deal of credit. I am so sick and tired of hearing that lie told. It's so ethnocentric and egotistical. Plus, it feeds into that Rambo mythology associated with Reagan. WE did not win the cold war. Reagan did not win the cold war. No matter who was president of the U.S. at the time, s/he would have seen the exact same thing happen.

[Zynx]

15. Reagan's confrotational ideas could have been a disaster.

The USSR is basically economically doomed from the late 1970's on, due to inherent structural problems with its planned economy and loss of bullshit toleration amoung the new generations that don't remember Lenin and Stalin. They see that their life stinks and that the KGB and Red Army are robbing the country blind and the party bosses are a bunch of drunken thugs, and they get fed up with it.

Reagan's increased military was a *huge* danger. Hardliners in the USSR could always have taken over, offed Gorby, and gone into Western Europe, just to see what would happen. They knew the USSR was screwed (hell, Andropov knew the USSR was screwed when *he* took over), but wars tend to toss everything up into the air and who knows what is going to come down.

That was a real danger and there is no reason to think other than Desert Storm-era wank that the USSR wouldn't have kicked our heads in in a conventional war.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

16. But do you think our culture and art and music had a part to play?

And maybe its not american - maybe its just worldwide free artists.

[WMliberal]

26. only in the context of

showing dissent. Rock and Roll and blue jeans contributed so much as they were a statement of resistance to what the state was trying to suppress. If the state had been trying to suppress African art or Thai food with as much effort as it was trying to suppress Rock and Roll, then African art of Thai food would have been in the black market.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

37. good point. I am wondering now - does my thread show that we are

arrogant? "Our Culture" as if we are the most relevant force on earth. I'm trying to lose my ridiculous nationalist view but it's damn well ingrained thanks to the likes of Ronnie!

edit: poort spelliiing

[asthmaticeog]

8. Nobody actually "won" anything.

The Soviet econmy wasn't viable. Reagan's defense-spending race (and the Soviets' willingness to race along) inarguably hastened the inevitable, but the clock was ticking on that nation anyway.

[FattyMcCraigs]

10. a good question...

...and here is a good place to start looking for answers, if you are really interested see if your local library has some of these books:

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=266875

[Skittles]

13. Reagan did NOT "win the Cold War"

he was merely president when the big f***ing CHARADE disintegrated.

[FlemingsGhost]

14. Middle East war and economic collapse killed the USSR

It'll likely kill the U.S., as well.

[Kilroy003]

27. No Shit!

At what point did the Soviet economy become unviable? How close is the US to the same point?

[Jose Diablo]

35. We're next if we don't get Bu$h out n/t

[Kilroy003]

38. After we unseat GW

Who's to say that Kerry's economic reforms won't end up like Gorby's? Americans can't get along well enough to stand in bread lines all day. I suppose I should read up on glasnost.

[GainesT1958]

18. The Soviet Union was already starting to implode in earnest...

Before Ronnie took office...its "Era of Stagnation" was in high gear, and this spelled the end of Communism as a major world political force--morally as well as governmentally. As, BTW, were its east-bloc satellites, and N. Korea. China's leaders were, though stupid with the Tienamen Square massacre, wise in converting their nation to a system Communist only in government, and capitalist in economic system. The only effective Communist states now are true personality-cult dictotorships, like N. Korea (Dub's Asian counterpart!:eyes: ), Cuba, and Angola.

Ronnie merely took advantage of the U.S.S.R.'s disadvantageous position, and found himself ultimately negotiating with a genuine reformer from another generation than the Kremlin "Old Guard", Gorbachev. Most East-Bloc nations, with the exception of East Germany, did as much or more with their own political movements to bring about the collapse of Comunism and the advent of democracy--see especially Poland and Czechoslovakia, as well as Hungary--than did Ronnie to help them in any way.

B-)

[bemildred]

20. The point is that the US did not want the Cold War(tm) to end.

The sense of loss in the defense business was palpable,
and the sense of aimlessness in the Foreign Policy elites
went on for several years before they came up with The
War on Drugs (TWOD) and The War Against Terror(TWAT) and
- last but not least - PNAC (The War On The Rest of The World).

[WMliberal]

28. great point.

and notice that they're approaching the War on Terror and the War on Drugs in the same manner as the Cold War. As if MAD could successfully deter Al Qaeda.... Or more Abrams tanks will stop suicide bombers.... Build up the military-industrial complex. Soft power be damned is their mentality.

[fob]

21. My summary

When Kennedy made Kruschev blink - the Soviets lost the cold war, the next 40 years were just the battle to see if the USA would win.

Carter's plan to goad USSR into Afghanistan put the US into Check position, raygun luckily didn't fuck up and throw away the plan, he did however add his star wars bullshit too it and almost bankrupted us before them. In 1985 Gorbachev came onto the scene and realized he had already lost and at best could play for a draw. Instead he went for a win by ceding the cold war officially and getting that gorilla off his back,and launching glasnost and a new era.

Credit goes to; Kennedy, Carter, Gorbachev

[daa]

25. Don't forget to include

50 years of unwaivering congressional support.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

29. Why does * insist that star wars still needs to be explored?

We have no defined enemy. Is it pure defense pork?

[ArkDem]

30. The policies of Jimmy Carter after Afganistan was invaded

by the Soviet Union. Carter's legacy will be the end of the cold war and the begining of peace in the middle east.

[RBHam]

31. The Chinese won the Cold War

Inscrutable bastards. They stayed back in the wings as the Soviet Union destroyed themselves trying to defeat the CIA-backed Mujahadeen in Afghanistan (remeber Reagan's "freedom fighters"?). And now they are again biding their time. Meanwhile the Bush Family Evil Empire that was quick to forgive the Chinese for Tianmen Square because business is business, and who helped supply China with high-tech weapon transfers (looting Redstone Arsenal) behind Clinton's back, and who actually FLEW in UNSCUTTLED one of your best US spy planes, yes THAT Bush Family Evil Empire that is now careening out of control with their Policies of Pre-emptive War, official torture to force false confessions to prop up their 9-11 "official story", their pigheaded determination to destroy the social safety net in the US...

Hell, if I didn't know any better...

I'd swear the Bushistas actually WORK FOR the Chinese Government.

And believe me, if Bush somehow gets elected or re-selected, your country will be unrecognizable in 4 years. The Neo-Cons are now turning their rapacious eyes not only on Iran and Syria, but they're planning another murderous intervention into Central and South America. Hell, there's lots of democratically elected socialists for the CIA and their "Contractor" co-horts to undermine, drive into exile or have assassinated. How mauch money will they syphon away into the "Black Budget" to pay for this one? How much more paper can Greenspan print?

By the time Bush finishes squandering your children's future away, the Chinese Government may very well be in the position of power. A healthy, booming economy. An aggresive space program. A well trained, well equipped, 5 million man standing Armed Forces...

Better learn to speak Mandarin, Six-Pack Joe. And it would be a good idea to start learning to like products made by Tsingtao Brewery.
That's all I'm sayin'.

[Jose Diablo]

32. I don't think it was our culture or Raygun

The USSR was a huge country with I think 47 separate languages.

Couple this with the fact that their leadership consisted of primarily ethnic Russians, both politically and militarily, this combination generated a lot of ill feelings between the people and the leaders.

Now add in a economic system that is corrupt and doesn't produce enough medicine, food and essentials for a good life. Very little prospects for building a better future life kills hope.

Add in a dominating police system move concerned with keeping everyone in-line to the party line, even though the party was the source of the problems.

It is these things that caused the USSR to implode IMO.

[Alpharetta]

33. I give Lech Walesa and Solidarnosc the bulk of the credit

their strikes brought down the Warsaw Pact.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

34. I totally think it was really Lech who won the war!!

I'll leave my feelings about Karol Vojtyla out of this.

[daa]

47. Lech wrote in the WSJ

that he gives all the credit to RR for helping and believing in the Polish people.

[WMliberal]

40. hey now. don't leave out

Charta 77 and the Velvet Revolution in Czechoslovakia. Samizdat culture was as direct action as strikers. Why else would the Czechs have made Vaclav Havel their President afterwards?

[leesa]

42. They went broke. Had nothing to do with Reagan.

Had to do with massive military spending...same thing that has bankrupted us. However, our demise is more directly related to Reagan's assistance.

[robertpaulsen]

43. Gorbachev ended the Cold War.

And the United States didn't win the Cold War as much as the Soviet Union lost through their economy collapsing which was more their own fault than it was ours. But give Gorbachev credit for winning the peace, even though he lost the war.

[EndElectoral]

44. Is China part of the Cold War? Tiannemen Square?