Conservative "Logic" on "Liberal" NPR : P.J. O'Rourke

[patrice]

O'Rourke talking to Terry Grosse about his new book Peace Kills: America's Fun New Imperialism (Since I haven't read it, I won't comment on the doublespeak in the title, except to say it's typical and probably as dishonest as the following vignette demonstrates.)

Grosse asked P.J. why lower-economic-class people support Republicans when Republicans don't support them, and O'Rourke went through a list which included the issue of patriotism. Republicans/conservatives love their country without criticism. Democrats/liberals love their country like a parent loves a child. It would spoil the child to ignore its faults, so Dem's patriotism is colored with the negative things about America, the way a parent loves a child, and that's condescending, to regard America as a child.

TG didn't call him on this logic. "Like", as in loving something like you'd love a child, is not EQUATION. It only means in a similar manner. O'Rourke shifted gears from describing how Dems/liberals feel about their country to how Dems/liberals treat children, and Grosse let him get away with it.

First off, isn't it more condescending to ignore "someone's" faults, "America, you can't handle the truth." And secondly, isn't it more respectful to think people are strong enough to recognize and do something about their faults?

And people say NPR is Liberal!!!

[Iris]

1. I'd say liberals

love their country like the founding fathers loved it. O'Rourke's thinking is so screwed up; if anything I'd say the "conservatives" love their country as one would love a spoiled child - completely overlooking the horrible things it's done simply because it has your DNA.

Anyway, Grosse usually lets hers guests stupidity speak for itself.

[trumad]

3. Republicans/conservatives love their country without criticism

Where's my good buddy Tom_Paine for the Nazi, Bolshevik comparisons...LOL

[tom_paine]

34. Here I am, trumad!

Yes, that does seem to be the dominant pattern of thinking in Totalitarian Societies.

:evilgrin:

"My country, right or wrong."

Fuck that! I stand with Teddy Roosevelt, that Good Democrat, and Free America!

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."
-- Theodore Roosevelt

http://www.quotedb.com/quotes/1730

God, I wish Teddy was here! He'd be one pissed-off fireberathing Democrat today! ESPECIALLY given Bushevik assaults on the environment.

[lanparty]

7. Hehe ...

Liberals realize that the "founding fathers" were not a monolithic group. They were diverse in their attitudes and opinions. They were diverse in what they EXPECTED from America and even how they interpreted the constitution.

We respect the founding fathers for WHO they were. They were brilliant men. But men nonetheless who had faults. We don't romanticize over stupid fairy tales like George Washington chopping down a cherry tree. We don't mindlessly attach ourselves to the founding fathers without an in depth knowledge of who these INDIVIDUALS were.

Conservatives spend so much time demonizing Clinton, Kennedy and FDR. If they truly when to demonize, they should get to the root of the ideology. They should demonize Thomas Jefferson!!!! He is the true father of liberals. He authored the Declaration of Independence including the bit about inaleable right being granted by the creator. He also authored a Bible that was COMPLETELY stripped of supernatural acts. Only the PHILOSOPHY of Jesus remained. No religion or son of god stuff.

These are the origions of our nation. They are complex and rich. They cannot be summarized by a few snappy phrases. One must THINK in order to be patriotic. Waving a flag is not enough. One must READ a constitution!!!!

[Iris]

12. Plus, they wrote a document meant to protect the minority from the tyranny

of the majority (of idiots!).

[immoderate]

24. To correct a frequent misquote of Jefferson...

He did not say rights are "granted." He said they are endowed. And not by *the* creator or by *our* creator, but by their creator.

For instance, I was created by my parents and they endowed me with my inalienable rights.

Right wingers always screw up this phrase, to infer we get our rights from god. Jefferson was cleverly neutral in his statement. (I am not accusing anyone here though.)

--IMM

[AlCzervik]

2. You know when i think about our country

I think about just that, the places and the people, i do not think about the government. PJ and other cons of his ilk should try to remember that we critize the government not the country in which it is housed.

[Iris]

4. good point n/t

[Taverner]

5. Well after NPR fired one of us

For posting to DU - there should be NO DOUBT who controls NPR....

[TN al]

6. Al Franken dealt with this in his book...

...conservatives love their country the same way a 4-year-old loves their mommy, i.e. whoever criticizes my mommy is evil. While a liberal loves their country the way an adult loves, i.e. despite their faults and works to eliminate their faults.

Interesting how PJ turned around Franken's perfect analogy to criticize liberals. What a thieving jerk.

[Jade Fox]

21. I knew he'd ripped that off from somewhere! Thanks

[PROGRESSIVE1]

8. I would just like to see NPR SHUT DOWN!!!

[Iris]

13. why? Grosse is giving the other side an opportunity to show people

what complete idiots they are.

[monchie]

9. Oddly enough, Al Franken used a similar but much more logical argument.

In "Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them," Franken said, don't get it. We love America just as much as they do. But in a different way. You see, they love America the way a four-year-old loves her mommy. Liberals love America like grown-ups. To a four-year-old, everything Mommy does is wonderful and anyone who criticizes Mommy is bad. Grown-up love means actually understanding what you love, taking the good with the bad, and helping your loved one grow. Love takes attention and work and is the best thing in the world.

"That's why we liberals want America to do the right thing. We know America is the hope of the world, and we love it and want it to do well. We also want it to do good."

Sounds a lot more coherent than what O'Rourke said.

[monchie]

10. Oops, lost a little bit of text due to html probs

Here's the full quote:

"(Right-wingers) don't get it. We love America just as much as they do. But in a different way. You see, they love America the way a four-year-old loves her mommy. Liberals love America like grown-ups. To a four-year-old, everything Mommy does is wonderful and anyone who criticizes Mommy is bad. Grown-up love means actually understanding what you love, taking the good with the bad, and helping your loved one grow. Love takes attention and work and is the best thing in the world.

"That's why we liberals want America to do the right thing. We know America is the hope of the world, and we love it and want it to do well. We also want it to do good."

And this time it really does sound more coherent than what O'Rourke said :-)

[NewHampshireDem]

11. Take what PJ says with a grain of salt ...

I personally find him entertaining, and sometimes even agree with him. I haven't bought his latest book--yet--but have read all of his others. He is laugh-out-loud funny, though prone to the witty comment in the place of solid logic--not unlike Al Franken. I imagine the title of his book is intentionally double-speak and ironic--as was his earlier book, "Give War a Chance." I doubt he really thinks imperialism is fun.

I'd also be careful of painting him with a broad Republican/Conservative brush ... he's a Libertarian and certainly would not be counted among the chest-thumping simple-minded patriots.

<edit>
Here's a link to the page where you can listen to the interview. I haven't yet, but will soon. :)

http://freshair.npr.org/day_fa.jhtml;jsessionid=A0PVA0LVSZUCJLA5AINSFEY?todayDate=current

[mitchum]

19. When did O'Rourke become funny?

Never noticed that before.
He IS easy to pin down; a craven opportunist.

[robertpaulsen]

14. Does P.J. even have children?

And if he does, what does this say about the way he's raising them? Obviously, these comments reflect his own parenting skills, or lack thereof. He couldn't possibly claim to know how liberal Democrats raise their children, since he is not one himself, could he? One might call that attitude "condescending".

Al Franken, a liberal Democrat who does have children, has a better analogy. He says conservatives love America like a child loves his Mommy. Unconditionally, unquestioning, Mommy/America can do no wrong (unless evil Uncle Clinton is in charge - my addition). Liberals love their country the way grown-ups love each other, a lot of give and take, but ultimately a more mature and healthier love. Makes me think Franken has a better understanding of parenting than O'Rourke, not to mention patriotism.

[tigereye]

15. I mean it is PJ O'Rourke, after all

he's a humorist.

I like NPR, at least they present a complex argument much of the time, and I think they are under the gun to present the "other side."

[formernaderite]

17. My wife also a Libertairan, is a huge PJ fan.....

and no question, he is funny.

[doni_georgia]

20. Yes he is

I don't agree with most of his politics, but the man can be hilarious. I defy any of you to pick up "The CEO of the Sofa" and read the chapter on the Blind Drunk Wine Tasting Test without blowing Merlot out your nose. Barring that, catch him on "Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me" sometime.
However, I don't want to act as his apologist: I have a first-edition copy of his first book, Modern Manners. That book alone would keep him from having any chance at political office (he released a later edition that cut a lot of the cruder racial and drug-oriented stuff) even if he were to decide to run. The first edition has a blue cover and was published around 1982, and if you find one, by all means get it. If nothing else, you may be surprised at what was popular and considered "funny" only 20 years ago. And from that you may get a better grasp of the "redneck rage" over the changes in the last 20 years. If that book were published in its original form today, O'Rourke would certainly be drummed out of most reputable journalistic ventures and probably would get quite a few death threats. No joke.

Mac in Ga (Doni's husband)

[AngryAmish]

26. I read Modern Manners years ago

I remember his advice on how to be polite at your own wake is to die in an interesting way, such as choking to death during an act of autofellatio. That way your guests will have something to talk about.

I still think that is funny.

[patrice]

16. He said he has 3.

They're pretty young too. I hope he isn't condescending with them.

[mitchum]

18. All the National Lampoon veterans said O'Rourke came off like...

a narc back in the 70s. That piss ant opportunist wasn't fit to breathe the same air as Michael O'Donoghue, Chris Miller, and Tony Hendra.

[NightTrain]

22. NPR is a joke.

And an unfunny joke, at that!

[progressivebydesign]

23. Liberal?

NPR is SO not liberal anymore. I was listening to an interview about the Kurds, in relation to their wishes for the new Iraqi government. That Rob person was conducting the interview of a correspondent who was extremely tuned in to the Kurds. No matter what the guy said, the interviewer kept trying to make the Kurds seem like whiney losers.. it was surreal. The guy kept saying that the Kurds have a legitimate gripe with the U.S. for using and abusing them, but this Rob person wouldn't let up on ridiculing the Kurds for wanting more say in the new government. It was nauseating. Now that they run ads on NPR, (doesn't matter how slowly the announcer talks, they're STILL ads), it has changed.

[Liberal Classic]

25. Interesting criticisms of NPR in this thread

Maybe it's time to give NPR the chance to sink or swim on its own without reaching into the treasury. I'm sure PJ would agree. ;)

[tigereye]

27. if we get rid of all the media that don't seem to meet

our standards (Fox excepted perhaps) there won't be much news media left. Media that makes you think seems to be in short supply of late and I would hate to see NPR disappear. I am not sure I understand what all the fuss is about.

[Liberal Classic]

30. I didn't say get rid of it

I asked, is it time to kick the fledgling out of the nest yet?

The media that makes people think would seem to be the net. Television seems to put people's brain in neutral.

[tigereye]

32. wasn't just referring to your statement

but to some of those above. I was referring to radio and the News Hour with Jim Lehrer. :) I think we can't get rid of everything that doesn't suit us and sometimes that type of thinking seems to predominate in some of these types of threads.

[NewHampshireDem]

28. Just listened to the interview and I'd say that

the context of his comments is important. The point you cite is in support of his larger point about government power. "Both democrats and republicans are equally likely to abuse their power; it's just that under Democrats there is more power to abuse," is a key point. Unless I missed it, I think you've extended his metaphor further than he himself did.

He also did use the word "patronizing," rather than "condescending." On the surface, its a minor quibble, but it fits with his democrats-as-parents line of reasoning, as to patronize is to act like a father--and though it carries a negative denotation, it is much less negative than "condescending." Sadly, in either case, I'd have to agree with O'Rourke on that point ... middle America does largely consider the left to be elitist--whether that label is right or wrong is beside the point, since it is the label we carry. I'm not sure O'Rourke was arguing he believed that was the case, as he was--as you point out--asked why people vote republican against their own best interest. I'm sure you'd hear people on the left making the same argument--in fact, I recall an article in MoJo or Harpers during the past couple of months that made the same point.

Thanks for your original post, Patrice, or else I'd have missed the interview. As I said, I don't always agree with him, but he does make me think.

[WLKjr]

29. NPR, TIME FOR A NAME CHANGE!

Nationalist Propapaganda Radio

N.P.R.

[tigereye]

33. that just seems extreme

I really don't think most of us have encountered real serious propaganda in our lives.

[bushwakker]

31. GOP conservatives love bashing liberals

"patriotism" is merely a guise from which they choose to do it. Reminds me of one of the neocon "intellectuals" (Irving Kristol I think) who said that the real enemy during the Cold War was not commies abroad but liberals at home.