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I'm not fan of Ronald Reagan - but if one compares

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Tony_FLADEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-04 03:35 PM
Original message
I'm not fan of Ronald Reagan - but if one compares
Reagan to people like Tom Delay, and George W. Bush - was Reagan really that bad. Sure he was a conservative - but maybe he was more of a Barry Goldwater type Republican.

People on the right use race and religion to win elections. Reagan never bashed affirmative action and he never wore religion on his sleeve like our current president. He worked with the opposition to save Social Security instead of trying to privatize it. He raised taxes 4 times because of the deficit. He negotiated with the Soviets in the 80's. Could you imagine * negotiating with anyone?


Having said all that - Reagan did have alot of crooks in his administration.





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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-04 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
1. Reagan was an evil bastard
he helped create Osama and Saddam - please read some history. Yes, he was every bit as bad as the crooks currently occupying the White House - he led the way for them.
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Dees Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-04 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #1
19. That's right. He was a template for the current crap
we've got going on now. He was a rotten bastard. He was a pathetic liar as well.
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Cyrano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-04 03:46 PM
Response to Original message
2. He sure as hell did use race to win an election
He openend his 1980 campaign in Philadelphia, Miss where three civil rights workers were murdered by the KKK and used the code phrase "states rights" in his speech.

He may have been a little more flexible than Bush and DeLay, but his sick fucking policies were smoothed over by his smile and affability. The son-of-a-bitch was too stupid too grasp the pain and suffering caused by the causes he backed with the convictions of a simpleton.
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DaveSZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-04 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. No
He was an evil man who laid the groundwork for Delay and Bush to take over.

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TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-04 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. He was slick...
and, unlike the current President-like-object, he was able to not only get much of the wingnut agenda through, he was able to do it without a fight. And have us smile a little more each time we were screwed.

Reagan's greatest crime was not so much what he did with policy and programs, much of which was stopped before it got too damaging, but for setting the stage where an unconscionable idiot like the one we have now can get away with this stuff.

In a free society and an advanced civilization, we must have all views available, but the people running the show can't be extremists. The extremists on all sides are there to frame the edges of the debate, and to make us think of the possibilities-- not to see their entire agendas become reality.

Reagan made the extreme right wing respectable, and that is his greatest crime.

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Lindacooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-04 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
4. Yes, Reagan was that bad
He started the mess with Saddam Hussein by selling him biological and chemical weapons in the 1980s.

He created the homeless 'underclass' with draconian cuts in social programs and programs for the mentally ill.

He declared war on the environment, accelerating the global warming problem (remember 'trees pollute more than cars???').

He lied about people on welfare, claiming that a woman would collect her welfare checks while driving a Cadillac.

The KKK and other hate groups flourished in the 1980s because of Reagan's bigotry. He did NOT support affirmative action; and the country responds to the attitude at the top. Notice how few people of color 'attended' his funeral?

He slashed funding for alternative energy programs, just after the 1970s oil crisis, stopping those programs in their tracks and leading to the peak oil crisis we'll soon be facing.

He cut funding for medical research, including cancer, Alzheimer's, diabetes, and heart disease.

And he exploded the nation's deficit. It took President Clinton years to balance the budget after Reagan's foolhardy spending sprees of the 1980s.

He created a culture in which 'greed is good', leading to the S&L failures of the 1980s and 1990s.

He was an evil bastard and good riddance. I am so sick of the sanitized 'st. ronnie' that's being broadcast by media whores 24/7.
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tjwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-04 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
5. Reagan pulled stuff they would have impeached Bill Clinton for...
...ten times over, and he did it with absolute impunity.
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meti57b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-04 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
6. Reagan lowered the intellectual bar for presidency & bush limboed under it
paraphrased from a LTTE in today's Los Angeles Times
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Elidor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-04 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
8. Yeah, selling arms to terrorists in exchange for hostages wasn't so bad
And funneling the profits from those arms sales to other terrorists who killed nuns and whatnot wasn't that bad either, even if it was in violation of the Boland Amendment. I mean, what's a little thing like the Rule of Law? Is that what a Goldwater republican is like? Ignoring the AIDS epidemic, blaming the homeless and poverty-stricken for their own plight, calling them lazy, etc., etcetera.

Gee, Ronny was really a swell guy!
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sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-04 04:13 PM
Response to Original message
9. Reagan supported the contras slaughter of Innocent peasants.. and the rape
and murder of nuns and murder of priests.. in central ad south America. initiated the epidemic of crack cocaine in this country trading it for guns bought from East Germany with money from selling Stinger missiles to terrorists in Iran.

he did not end the cold war.. they just fell apart because we denied them computers.. they couldn't run a system that big on paper. we forced them into a guns and butter economy only no butter .. the suffering of the soviet people was criminal.. the cold war never existed.. it was a fraud perpetrated on this country by Corporations and the CIA.. and Millions died needlessly in countries that the CIA started wars in to keep the fraud rolling the tax money in.. the debt acquired is a noose around our great great great grandchildren necks and bush is tightening it more,

The cold war was an excuse to produce PLUTONIUM at taxpayers expence... warehouse it in bombs so it could later be used in private Reactors to produce energy at cost beyond the last high level before the oil allegedly ran out.

WAKE THE HELL UP... THIS IS ALL A SMOKE SCREEN. WHEN THEY WANT TO USE OUR PLUTONIUM.. MAKE THEM BUY IT OR NATIONALIZE THE INDUSTRY. THIS IS THE REASON THEY WANT TO GO THE HYDROGEN.. ONLY REACTORS CAN MAKE ENOUGH ENERGY TO DO THAT.

BUSH DIS FUNDED A PROGRAM THAT HAD THE TECHNOLOGY TO PRODUCE OVER 80% OF THE DAYTIME ENERGY FOR THE COUNTRY..FROM SOLAR.CONSERVATION WOULD ELIMINATE THE REST.

i USE AMSOIL.. I CHANGE THE OIL EVERY 250,OOO MILES, MY ENGINE WILL GET OVER 1,000,000 MILES ON IT. i GET ABOUT 5 MPG BETTER MILEAGE. AND CHANGE THE FILTERS EVERY 12,500 MILES. AMSOIL ALONE WOULD MAKE US OIL INDEPENDENT FROM FOREIGN OIL.. AND SET BACK THE NECESSITY TO BURN COAL AND USE PLUTONIUM TO MAKE ENERGY
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quinnox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-04 04:15 PM
Response to Original message
10. Bush is worse
I agree totally.
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Cyrano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-04 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Well, Bush hasn't visited a Nazi cemetary ... yet
This was not the most damaging, but one of the greatest blasphemies of Reagan. Elie Weisel beseeched him not to go, but to no avail. Honestly, what American president would lay a wreath at a cemetery for Hitler's SS. This is so sick as to be beyond comprehension.
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Carl Brennan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-04 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Too many of Bush's family friends are there; it may
Edited on Sat Jun-12-04 04:26 PM by Carl Brennan
be too emotional for him. :evilgrin:
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quinnox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-04 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. I find that hard to believe
Reagan as president showed respect to Nazi SS grave? This would have been huge news and he would have lost second term.
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Cyrano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-04 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Google it
It wasn't any goddamn secret. My God, If you don't believe it, ask anyone who was old enough to remember. The name of the cemetery was Bitburg. Look it up.
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quinnox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-04 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. Ok, this surprised me
Wow, this is news to me.
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tjwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-04 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. That's when they figured out you could get away with anything...
...if you have a lap dog press like he did, and as it appears, still does.



Heres a picture of the son of a bitch laying the fucking wreath. Reagan promised Helmut Kohl he'd visit the cemetary, and the POS reporters covered up for him saying "He made a mistake" "it was a cloudy day", "he couldn't read the road signs and we ended up in the wrong place."

Pure and utter bullshit.
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quinnox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-04 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. that is shocking
I will have to do some research on this, thanks for the picture.
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Cyrano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-04 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. The press was so full of shit
This was an issue before he even left on the trip. "A wrong turn???" Many in this country were screaming about the itinerary before he went.

Maybe this is a bit heavy-handed and I may regret it tomorrow, but right now, seeing the legacy of the Reagan years, that cemetery might have been a fitting resting place for him.
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-04 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #13
21. it was after his re-election, April 1985
http://eightiesclub.tripod.com/id342.htm


In mid-April, White House press secretary Larry Speakes informed the media of the planned visit to Bitburg. When asked who was buried at Kolmeshohe, Speakes said he thought both American and German soldiers were there. Reporters soon discovered, however, that no American servicemen were in the cemetery; in fact, the remains of all U.S. soldiers had long since been removed from German soil. They also learned that a handful of the notorious SS were among the Germans interred at Kolmeshohe. The Waffen SS had been the combat branch of the Third Reich's elite guard, the Schutzstaffel . Created in 1923 to serve as Hitler's bodyguards, and expanded by Heinrich Himmler in the 1930s -- nearly one million men had served in the SS by the end of the war -- the Schutzstaffel included the Totenkopf, or "Death's Head" division, the men who had served as guards at the concentration camps. And a Waffen SS First Division battle group was responsible for the massacre of 71 American POWs at Malmedy, Belgium during the Battle of the Bulge. It wasn't clear if any of the SS troops buried at Kolmeshohe had participated in that or any other atrocity and, as Bitburg Mayor Theo Hallet pointed out, all German military cemeteries were likely to contain at least a few SS graves. Such distinctions, though, failed to placate those who were opposed to Reagan's visit on moral grounds.

One of the most eloquent of these opponents was Elie Wiesel, an author and concentration camp survivor to whom Reagan presented the Congressional Medal of Achievement during a White House ceremony just weeks prior to the president's European trip. "Mr. President," said Wiesel, in his remarks, "I am convinced . . . that you were not aware of the presence of SS graves in the Bitburg cemetery. Of course you didn't know. But now we are all aware. May I . . . implore you to do something else, to find another way, another site. That place, Mr. President, is not your place." Wiesel's protest was just one of many. The chairman of the International Network of Children of Jewish Holocaust Survivors, Menachem Rosensaft, called the proposed visit "so macabre and so awful that one can only wonder what possessed Reagan." Clarence M. Brown, national commander of the American Legion, warned that it would "not sit well" with veterans if Reagan were to "lay a wreath at the graves of Nazi soldiers." Former Army S/Sgt. Jim Hively mailed his World War II decorations, including a silver star and a bronze star, to Reagan in protest. In the Congress, 53 senators, 11 of them Republicans, signed a letter urging the president to cancel the visit, while 257 representatives, including 84 Republicans, signed a letter asking Chancellor Kohl to withdraw the invitation.

But Reagan would not budge, and neither would Kohl. "I will not give up the idea," said the West German leader in an interview with Time's Bonn bureau chief. "If we don't go to Bitburg, if we don't do what we jointly planned, we will deeply offend the feelings of people." A poll revealed that 72% of West Germans thought the visit should go forward as planned. Kohl admitted that rarely had German-American relations been so strained. Indeed, it seemed that in the days leading up to the presidential visit, the White House and the Chancellery were pitted one against the other in the blame game. A top Reagan aide claimed the Germans had given assurances that nothing in the Bitburg visit would be an "embarrassment" for the president. "As clumsily as we handled it," said another U.S. official, "Kohl &. Co. have surpassed us in spades." A German official responded: "The Americans also have a responsibility toward the president. They must also check on the history that is beneath the ground. It was not very intelligent."

Reagan didn't help matters when he announced that he saw nothing wrong with visiting the cemetery because the German soldiers buried there were "victims of Nazism also . . . drafted into service to carry out the hateful wishes of the Nazis." Equating Nazi soldiers with Holocaust victims, responded Rabbi Alexander M. Schindler, president of the Union of American Hebrew Congregations, was "a callous offense for the Jewish people." Many questioned Reagan's claim that most of the SS soldiers at Kolmeshohe had been teenagers drafted against their will into serving the Third Reich. But further research revealed that, indeed, most of the 49 SS dead were between the ages of 17 and 20. Kohl confirmed that in the last days of the war he was able to avoid service in the SS because he was only 15, "but they hanged a boy from a tree who was perhaps only two years older with a sign saying TRAITOR" because he had tried to run away rather than serve.
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Kahuna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-04 04:33 PM
Response to Original message
15. Reagan was very hateful and mean spirited to people of color..
and the underpriviledged. At least you can't say that bush has a hard on against minorities. Bush is an equal opportunity offender. Still, I'd say bush is the bigger jerk. Reagan was of a different era. Bush is a baby boomer and should know better.
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johnfunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-04 04:47 PM
Response to Original message
22. I'm no fan of Red Ink Reagan, but I do have a message for Sm*rk:
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Cyrano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-04 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Yes he is
Bush is Reagan after the smile and the affability have been torn away. Both were/are ignorant men. Both were/are mindless ideologues. Both were/are possessed of moral certitude. And both have damaged this country to a degree that it might take the rest of this century to repair.

That's assuming that Bush doesn't steal this election too. If he does, there will be nothing left to repair.
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Kahuna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-04 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. I agree. They are both despicable.
nt
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-04 09:00 PM
Response to Original message
25. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-04 09:04 PM
Response to Original message
26. Reagan murdered tens of thousands of people in Latin America...
gutted social programs, grew a huge deficit, refused to fund essential AIDS education and research, and delayed the fall of the Soviet Union by threatening it and scaring it, making its leaders less ready to negotiate.

He wasn't that different from Bush, and certainly not much better.
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